Thanks very much to @pastachips for today’s fierce guest post.
The transmisogyny of Stuart Campbell, aka author of pro-independence blog Wings Over Scotland, has been pretty devastatingly documented here. Edinburgh Eye did an excellent overview of his misogyny, homophobia, and other problems here.
Then I read Robin McAlpine’s piece in defence of Campbell. (Ugh, I know – if only political debate in Scotland passed the Bechdel test more.) McAlpine, founder of the ‘progressive’ Reid Foundation, and whose project the Common Weal is supposedly “for the wellbeing of all”, wrote: “I don’t write in support of Wings anything like enough”. He continues, “Wings … is widely loved … because it is clear and unashamed in making our case. I have been following Wings for quite a while and have yet to come across any reason to quarantine it.”
McAlpine, in somewhat florid style (“to the local campaign whose leaflet is to be burned …”: pal, this isn’t actually Nazi Germany; the leaflet is being discontinued, and spares are more likely to be recycled), “refus[es] to apologise” for any of the “wonderful” Yes-campaigners; grandly vowing he will leave no man behind. Robin, your solidarity with dudes is totally cute and does you credit. No, wait. Not credit. The other thing.
I cried over this last night, and put it down to too much cider; when I found myself crying over it again this afternoon, having only drunk coffee, I figured I might genuinely just be feeling really fucking sad about misogyny among ‘Yes’ many activists in the referendum debate. Care about anything? Want stuff to be different? Hey, meet the new boss, same as the old.
I want to unpick an example Campbell’s virulent misogyny – the Walker case – in more detail than I’ve seen elsewhere, and wonder aloud how exactly so-called progressives still – still, still – vocally support this man, and trust his analysis, and promote his work.
At one end of a spectrum, we have Bill Walker, disgraced former SNP MSP, convicted of multiple instances of domestic violence, a catalogue of abuse spanning decades. Next up, Stuart ‘Wings’ Campbell, embarrassingly overeager to excuse and/or obscure Walker’s violence against women. Next again, we have Robin McAlpine, progressive par excellence, working for “the wellbeing of all”, who ‘doesn’t write in support of Wings anything like enough’. This is how it goes, I guess. Who is included in Common Weal’s definition of “all”? Given this solidarity with Campbell, who writes like a parody of a person excusing domestic violence, perhaps McAlpine doesn’t consider the ‘wellbeing’ of women, survivors of domestic violence, and women-survivors-of-domestic-violence to be a crucial part in his progressive vision. Wait, what?
Stuart Campbell has written about the Walker/domestic violence case a couple of times, notably in this blog post, ‘Ugly Witches Are Easy To Hunt’. (‘Ugly Witches’ is a super-interesting choice of first words to put as your title in a blog post about a male politician accused of violence against women, isn’t it?) As I said, his article reads like a parody of someone excusing gendered violence – it’s that crude. Campbell consistently refers to “allegations” against Walker, despite the fact that Walker had by that point admitted to several of the offences in question; he states that he hopes Walker does resign, “because he was a liability to the SNP [due to another issue], and because we don’t think the SNP have anything to fear from a byelection at this stage” – um, priorities?; he criticises the Herald for calling what Walker did to three of his wives ‘abuse that spanned four decades’, on the grounds that this is a “tacky and misleading” phrase, before acknowledging the abuse “does of course in a technical semantic sense ‘span four decades’” (my god, Stuart, in a technical semantic sense? Tell us again how opposed to domestic violence you are, you hero!), before concluding the paragraph by telling us that it all happened a long time ago. Er – and?
It goes on. “There are allegations, as yet unproven” – again, no mention of Walker’s widely-known admission of guilt – “haven’t been and at no point will be the subject of any police action”. Many of survivors of domestic violence never take their experiences to the police, often due to attitudes like Campbell’s amongst both the criminal justice system and the public, but as it happens the Walker case did go to court, and Walker was convicted, and given a custodial sentence, and his appeal was thrown out, so Stuart Campbell’s confident assertion that these “allegations” “at no point will be the subject of any police action” rather reveals his hand here: his intention is obviously to discredit the women coming forward, rather than (as he’d no doubt like to present it) ‘rationally and objectively present the facts’, or whatfuckingever. And then he repeats that this abuse happened in the past and therefore doesn’t matter. Amazing work!
(Also, Walker receiving a degree of opprobrium for beating up three of his wives – so badly that at least one woman required hospitalisation – while having a lengthy and well-paid career, including in politics, is described as “a lynching”, which – just, jesus christ, no. Think of fourteen year old Emmett Till and feel sick.)
Campbell repeatedly parrots ‘innocent until proven guilty’, ignoring that resigning from Parliament is not a prison sentence imposed by the state, and therefore the strictures that apply in a criminal court case do not apply here. Where courts impose civil rather than criminal sanctions – rather more analogous to being asked to resign from Parliament, perhaps, since such sanctions typically are financial, and are not custodial – the standard of proof required to convict is “on the balance of probabilities”. Do we think that a man who admitted to hitting his ex wife; a man about whom three of his ex wives said he hit them, including in official divorce papers which he did not contest – do we think he might, just, maybe, on the balance of possibilities … have hit women? Do we? Does sharpening up the legal analogy to make it more attuned to the actual real world highlight the extent to which Stuart Campbell’s posturing as the last bastion of the presumption of innocence – near overwhelmed by hordes of mendacious, grasping women and yet standing fast – is both entirely ridiculous and entirely a deliberate distraction from the real issue, which is Campbell’s not-even-so-weaselly (!) refusal to condemn violence against women? And I mean, did he mention it happened a long time ago? Nothing that happened in the 1990s matters now, right?
Campbell concludes “doubtless we’ll be accused by hysterical idiots of misogyny” – yes! hi! – ‘hysterical’ being a pretty obviously loaded word to use in this (or any, but especially this) context, and also interesting for being a favourite word of noted perpetrator of violence against women, Bill Walker, who in his acknowledgement that he did indeed hit his ex-wife, stated that he did it only because she was “hysterical”.
Maybe the all-time most disgusting instance of Campbell’s essentially pro-violence-against-women approach to writing about Bill Walker, though, is under the article ‘Your Rules, Our Rules’ (yeah, no kidding pal, we live by a different moral code and no mistake). Campbell writes in the comment section – in response to a comment pointing out that Walker admitted to hitting his ex-wife and his former stepdaughter, the latter with a saucepan – noting with regards to the step-daughter: “Didn’t Walker essentially claim self-defence with the cooking pot?”
The stepdaughter in question, Anne Louise, was sixteen years old at the time. Walker was an adult man, reported to be 6’2” tall. He stuck her with a metal implement. In “self-defence”. (In Bill Walker’s trial – at which he was convicted – it was revealed that Anne Louise frequently attempted to intervene to stop Walker from beating her mother). Self-defence. That was what Stuart Campbell thought the most germane issue, the first thing to bring up, when discussing a 6’2” man hitting a schoolgirl with a metal implement.
When women raise the issue of Campbell’s entirely non-secret misogyny, they are often dismissed as “unionists”. Imagine thinking that was an acceptable response? Imagine, though? Elsewhere on the internet, gross men patronisingly scold Yes-voting women for thinking that misogyny might be somewhat important, as if the aforementioned women were children (“So let us see less negativity from you …”). At 4pm on Friday afternoon, Robin McAlpine’s ‘In Support of Wings’ post on Bella Caledonia had over one hundred comments (the vast majority left by men) in support of McAlpine’s gushing praise of Stuart Campbell, with Edinburgh Eye constituting the only dissenting voice. Morag Eyrie, a Yes-voting woman (so you can’t even call her a unionist! Maybe accuse her of ‘splitting the movement’, eh? That’ll be fresh and new), wrote about McAlpine’s post “I literally feel like crying from the punch in the stomach of that article right now”, and summed up McAlpine’s position as “let’s just throw the LGBT and other recipients of his bigotry under the bus for the sake of indy”, concluding, “fuck that”.
Bill Walker’s lack of remorse was considered an aggravating factor in his sentencing. The judge commented, “in the few incidents where you acknowledged the use of physical force, you believed you were entitled to or justified in its use”. I wonder where Walker could have picked up that sense of entitlement, hmm?
Perhaps the same culture which fostered that sense even now gives space and support to Wings and other men who condone domestic violence? Some people may think a degree of progress has been made since Walker’s offences were committed, but we still live in a culture in which a commentator, widely feted by self-identified progressives, entirely ignores a male perpetrator’s own admission of violence against women, preferring to vociferiously defend the perpetrator as if the question of his culpability was ever in doubt.
Imagine if we could hold people on “our side” (gag) to the actually-not-very-high-standard of not defending a grown man beating a schoolgirl: fucking imagine that. Imagine if women – or people of any gender opposed to violence against women – who raised this got actually listened to, rather than being accused of being unionists or accused of splitting the movement. It is so so so telling that you see those who object to perpetrators and to excusers of violence against women as being the people who are splitting the movement, Yes-crowd, rather than say, ooooh, men who hit women and the men who support them. Like, have you ever considered that that might mean your movement is actually shit anyway?
Again, I wonder where Bill Walker could possibly have derived his sense that violence against women was really no big deal, huh? Any thoughts, Robin McAlpine? And beyond Bill Walker: there are men who are currently in our communities, including our activist communities, who are perpetrating domestic violence and sexual violence, and they’re getting away with it. In part they’re getting away with it because the women – and people of all genders, but mostly women, cis and trans – who are living through that violence know perfectly well that there is almost no social penalty meted out against perpetrators; people might, in the abstract, state that they’re “against domestic violence”, but when it comes to someone they agree with, someone who has “good Yes-politics” (fucking lol), then “oh, maybe it was more complicated”; “maybe it was self-defence”; “it doesn’t count unless it goes to court and we can already tell you it’ll never go to court”; “it was in, like, the past”; … sis, we just don’t give a fuck, actually – he’s got good chat …
Misogynists gonna misogo: I have no illusions that Stuart Campbell will ever give a fuck about violence against women, beyond tellingly sharing with Walker-types a propensity to denigrate women he’s designated “hysterical”. But the rest of you? Fucking Common Weal? He whitewashes Walker and you whitewash him and we’re all good and yay-we-get-a-new-Scotland? Really? I’m actually so fucking depressed by this, still. I get that this will probably be ignored, or I’ll get shouted down, or whatever. I’ve spent long enough in or on the edge of leftwing groups or movements to know how this goes. I don’t have a happier thought to end on, and my analysis here isn’t super complicated or exciting, because this is old fucking news. I’m basically just documenting this, to let you know: I see you. I fucking see you.
#1 by Cath on June 24, 2014 - 11:23 am
I hadn’t read the article in question, so clicked the link and this piece really does misrepresent it totally. It was obviously written just as the Walker story first broke. It says:
“So let’s be absolutely unequivocal – we’re disgusted by what Walker is alleged to have done, and strongly dislike the idea of the SNP being represented by such a man.”
You also write, “he states that he hopes Walker does resign, “because he was a liability to the SNP [due to another issue],” Why not quote the whole sentence? “Let’s be clear from the off – we hope Bill Walker DOES resign, because he was a liability to the SNP already on account of his homophobic views”.
I have seen many allegations against Stuart Campbell of misogyny, bigotry and being against LGBT people, but nothing linked ever remotely backs up what’s being claimed, and that quote in full appears to disprove it.
I’m female and have written for Wings a couple of times, so believe me, it really does bother me if there are allegations of misogyny and bigotry, and I’m well aware there are some men BTL on Wings who don’t help bring women over to the yes side. But equally there are women on the Yes side who are extremely off-putting as well, even for other women. And it bothers me somewhat more to dig into allegations of misogyny or bigotry against someone to find the claims don’t stand up to scrutiny, or are over-blown.
#2 by EyeEdinburgh on June 24, 2014 - 12:49 pm
against Stuart Campbell of misogyny, bigotry and being against LGBT people, but nothing linked ever remotely backs up what’s being claimed,
I got tired of people saying this, so I posted screencaps in the blogpost. Turns out that if you screencap RevStu saying misogynistic, homophobic, or transphobic things, that is STILL not regarded as backing up the point that he is misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic.
(I found his reaction to the screencap of his blaming Liverpool fans for the deaths of the 96 at Hillsborough especially telling: never seen such a handwaving “let’s say I didn’t really say exactly what the screencap shows I said”.)
#3 by Morag Eyrie on June 24, 2014 - 1:40 pm
Even if what you say is true (and it has been refuted already), the absolutely horrendous abusive and unapologetic comments WoS has made on the issue of trans* people is enough to bar him from any civilised debate. It’s all documented in the blog posts linked to above. The evidence mounts as to what a nasty piece of work this guy is. It’s the fact that so-called progressive / left / whatever people defend him that worries me. As pastachips said, new boss, same as the old boss. You can either exclude bigots from the warm embrace of the Yes campaign, or you can effectively exclude those to whom the bigotry pertains, there is no middle ground. Believe me, Mike Dailly may or may not be making a list, that’s irrelevant, but plenty of us are remembering who has had our back throughout this campaign. Precious few it seems.
#4 by Cath on June 24, 2014 - 11:32 am
I’d also add to the comment above that there are far more misogynistic, nasty, bullying men and women on the No side than on the yes one. So if that’s a big worry to anyone, the status quo appears vastly worse than an independent Scotland. Ian Davidson (threatening to give a woman a dooin’), Mike Dailly putting us all on lists, the Daily Mail doorstepping a single mother with an autistic son to name but three. Then you have the whole West of Scotland Labour culture to deal with.
#5 by James on June 24, 2014 - 12:42 pm
You think saying Walker should resign for another issue (but still not this one) is a staunch position against domestic violence? that any non-misogynist would ever claim that a grown man beating a young woman with a pan could be self-defence? SERIOUSLY? We surely don’t want to build an independent Scotland that doesn’t challenge domestic violence, hatred of LGBT people (all well stood up in those links you appear to have ignored), or misogyny.
#6 by Connor on June 24, 2014 - 1:22 pm
Why on earth does it matter that the other side has a greater number of “misogynistic, nasty, bullying men and women”? That seems like a bizarre reason to support those who are equally vile and voting Yes.
#7 by Morag Eyrie on June 24, 2014 - 1:35 pm
“The other side are worse” is not a defence for the egregious statements made across a number of issues by WoS’s main man. We need to clean up our own act on the Yes side.
#8 by Cath on June 24, 2014 - 2:01 pm
The point I’m making is that the attacks here and descriptions of “vile” are not in any way backed up by the links given. And frankly, as a woman I’m getting pretty sick of us “fairer sex” being used to vilify people for just saying things in a robust manner. I find that more misogynistic and sexist than anything Wings has said. Nowhere in those articles is Bill Walker, or domestic violence being defended, and the links actually say he should resign for his stance on gay marriage and homophobia.
And yes, it does very much matter that the other side is institutionally vile and bullying, and appears to be attempting to smear successful pro independence blogs and individuals – including a single mother of an autistic child being plastered all over the Daily Mail – as part of that agenda. It matters greatly.
#9 by EyeEdinburgh on June 24, 2014 - 8:40 pm
The point I’m making is that the attacks here and descriptions of “vile” are not in any way backed up by the links given.
Well, that’s fine. Now we know you don’t regard homophobia, transphobia, and defending a wifebeater as “vile”. You’ll just have to accept, though, that lots of us do.
#10 by Cath on June 24, 2014 - 2:16 pm
“but plenty of us are remembering who has had our back throughout this campaign.”
Yes, yes we are. And I don’t count those who think it’s “irrelevant” that a bullying and powerful establishment is putting some of us on lists and using a right wing rag to harass normal mothers as having anyone’s back. Especially when they’re attacking the same target(s).
#11 by EyeEdinburgh on June 24, 2014 - 8:39 pm
One of the people who decided to harass a normal mother was Stuart Campbell. Not that long ago, either.
#12 by Emma on June 24, 2014 - 2:29 pm
Well said.
#13 by Steve on June 24, 2014 - 2:31 pm
I’d just like to add my belated voice to say I agree with this article. I want to be a part of a movement that is genuinely inclusive and I am sad that people campaigning for a yes vote have created a situation where many women and LGBT people feel they can’t be a part of it.
I stopped tweeting references to wings a while ago, but generally kept silent. I now realise that silence is not good enough.
My dilemma was that I honestly believe the wings site contains some really good analysis not found elsewhere. I think the mainstream media has created an empty space where there should be critical analysis from a pro yes viewpoint, and wings has stepped into that space and owned it. I see friends on facebook reading and referencing the wings site, in blissful ignorance of the problems outlined in pastchip’s article, by Edinburgh Eye and on twitter. I kept silent rather than pointing it out to them, because frankly I liked seeing people coming over to independence.
I’d like to apologise for that, it’s been dead easy for me to let it slide and I’ll not do that any more.
If we are to win independence, then it needs to be done in such a way that everyone is clear we don’t just want indy for its own sake, but to build a better country, and one which is genuinely for everyone.
#14 by .Indy on June 24, 2014 - 9:08 pm
One problem here is that there is undoubtably a Get Wings campaign in what people call the mainstream media. So a lot of people in Yes will automatically support him.
Another problem is that it is simply not true to say he promotes transmysogyny and bigotry on WoS. He doesn’t. I don’t question that it is there but it is incidental. The content of WoS is overwhelmingly pro Indy and that is why people read it.
A lot of it is very good. Some of it isn’t, as Campbell Gunn found out to his cost. But people who read it are looking for facts and analysis of the referendum campaign. They don’t see misogyny, transphobia or bigotry and are genuinely bewildered by the accusations. Because you do in fact have to look for the misogyny, transphobia and bigotry. It is absent from the vast majority of content on the WoS website.
This is not a criticism of the writer or anyone else who feels the same way. I totally get what you are saying. It’s more of an explanation I think of what lies behind the WoS phenomenon.
I have to say I still read WoS cos there is good stuff there. But I wouldn’t put it on Facebook etc because I don’t want to offend people.
I found Robin McAlpine’s article incredibly daft. I think he wrote it in a fit of passion and would have been better deleting it once he had got it out his system rather than publishing it. WoS is not and never has been a part of the Yes campaign. It is a website run by an individual who supports the Yes campaign. The accusation that Yes was distancing itself or somehow letting WoS down doesn’t make any sense really. It was a very childish reaction I thought.
Finally I would say we’re all probably up to our eyes in it now. I know I am. The focus is all on September 18. So to an extent other things get pushed to one side. There may be legitimate concerns about some people supporting the Yes campaign. But most of us don’t have the time to deal with that or even think about it. Again, I am not saying this is right, I’m just trying to explain why people may seem unresponsive. They are putting in a huge effort towards a single aim and that is all they are focussed on.
#15 by James on June 25, 2014 - 10:01 am
Pretty contradictory line of argument. Either “misogyny, transphobia and bigotry […] is absent from the vast majority of content on the WoS website”, i.e. it’s only present in some content, which is an argument that can be made, or “it is simply not true to say he promotes transmysogyny and bigotry on WoS”. You can’t have that both ways. I agree he promotes independence more regularly than he promotes his bigotry, but the former cannot excuse the latter – I refer you to the cartoon above.
#16 by Mel Kelly on June 25, 2014 - 12:41 am
Why are we having a referendum – not because we want to split from England, NI and Wales, but because we want to split from Westminster, the House of Lords and the undue influence of the City Of London.
We cannot trust any of the established political parties and no party will ever have policies that even all their supporters like
It is the political system that is wrong and regardless of we vote yes or no – the political system and the parties ruling us remain the same.
What I want is 21st century democracy that we can all get behind
What we need is every parliament to have a second chamber – like the swiss – where no party or coalition can rule our lives against our will from cradle to grave any more
We are an intelligent nation with fantastic people who normally work together for the betterment of use all
Currently the government presents a bill – and a gaggle of MP’s or MSP’s have a YES/NO vote (a referendum) to decide if it should become law or not
Why in the 21st century are we allowing a handful of people who only represent their own interests make decisions which control and affect all our lives from cradle to grave
I propose, regardless of the referendum result, the house of Lords is abolished and every parliament gets a 2nd chamber – filled with lawyers employed by the people – to advise the people on every bill presented by the ruling parties of the day
And then after any bill is proposed, instead of a gaggle of MPs and MSPs voting Yes or No – on a weekend (e.g. Sunday) – we, the people are the ones to vote yes or no – as they do in Switzerland
We are an intelligent nation and we have the technology and I propose (for our children and our children’s children’s sake) we implement this as soon as possible – and that way no party or coalition can rule our children’s lives against our will – in the same way we have had to suffer
No system is perfect – but we should not be ruled by 17th century democracy in this information age.
And that way, we are all forced to keep an eye on what is going on and become more informed and can make the best decisions for our country and for our lives and not feel as powerless as we do now.
Good democracy takes dedication and we must take responsibility for our own destiny in a way that brings us together rather than tearing us apart
#17 by James on June 25, 2014 - 9:53 am
We’ve got a stack of comments coming in here from pals of the “Rev” which meet some or all of the first five reasons we don’t approve comments (although surprisingly none yet for number six). Criticism is fine. Criticism which is just insults for either the author or the blog is not fine. Anything which suggests you’ve not read her article before telling her she’s wrong will also not get put through. This is also a good way not to get posted: “I am going to confess that misogyny or transphobia or whatever else are not really issues that I find myself overly concerned with”, as is any reference to “Millie Tant”.
#18 by Justin Kenrick on June 25, 2014 - 11:56 am
We are quick to attack, and quick to defend
Maybe we need to slow down
and take seriously the fundamental problem of living in a society where one lot see themselves as entitled and see the others as lesser stupider deviant beings.
The powers that be love nothing more than (a) driving a wedge between those seeking to take back power from them, and (b) making sure any challenge to them becomes just a changing of the guard that keeps them in power.
If we focus on (a) then we will defend Robin and defend Wings for the huge tonic they both give to those of us trying to see through the lies of the mainstream media with its job of confusing and dividing and deceiving us into voting No or into believing voting Yes will make no difference
If we focus on (b) then we will attack anyone pushing for Independence who – for a moment or in one way or in many ways – seems to uphold some part of the structures of domination that we are up against
– Pastachips anger seems absolutely appropriate,
– Robin’s response to the vilification of Wings seems absolutely appropriate,
– Wings analysis of what is being thrown at the independence movement by the mainstream media seems absolutely appropriate,
– James Mackenzie’s anger with issues being ducked seems absolutely appropriate,
– James Kelly (Scot Goes Pop)’s anger with James Mackenzie for attacking Stuart Campbell (Wings) seems absolutely appropriate.
Can we let this become a dialogue that allows us to:
(1) reflect and act on the need for deep deep change to address the multiple injustices we face, while
(2) not being distracted from the fact that there are powerful forces that want nothing more than for us to become divided from each other
and, for me, that ‘us’ does not just refer to the ‘us’ who are weary to the bone of our own and each other’s patriarchy, nor just to the ‘us’ who weary to the bone of the Westminster/ City of London tearing down of society to feather their own disgusting nests, it refers to all of ‘us’ who care.
And we do care, which is why we are in this dialogue, which is why we are on the same side, which is what we need to remember if we are to win not just on September 18th but in the much larger social change we need to make happen – the one that includes the kind of changes Pastachips is talking of – of which September 18th is just one small but crucial part.
#19 by James on June 25, 2014 - 12:10 pm
Literally no idea how you can conclude that both sides are right. To take just one pair of assertions, how can pastachips be right to be angry with Wings and McAlpine’s defence of Wings, but McAlpine be right to defend Wings? Genuinely baffled by that.
#20 by EyeEdinburgh on June 25, 2014 - 12:46 pm
Can I ask – quite seriously:
Can we let this become a dialogue that allows us to:
(1) reflect and act on the need for deep deep change to address the multiple injustices we face, while
(2) not being distracted from the fact that there are powerful forces that want nothing more than for us to become divided from each other
How is a dialogue even possible, when RevStu’s reaction to any criticism is inevitably flat denial?
Stuart Campbell is not likely to address the need for “deep deep change” while he and his supporters are personally convinced that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the attitudes that you acknowledge need to change.
Were you to propose this angle on Wings Over Scotland, I suspect the overwhelming reaction would be an angry “shut up, how dare you!” not a polite query or two about what you mean.
It is Wings/RevStu who is busy driving a wedge between the male-dominated (at best: “equality for women and LGBT can come LATER”) group, and the rest of the Yes movement. The fact that any attempt to recognise this, to identify this as problematic behaviour on the part of RevStu and his supporters, is greeted with ridicule and contumely and accusations that the people who want to talk about the wedge RevStu is driving are creating the problem, is becoming a worse problem even than RevStu’s wedge.
I am genuinely interested, however, to find how Robin McAlpine would react to this blogpost.
#21 by Justin Kenrick on June 25, 2014 - 2:29 pm
Hi James
Robin is absolutely right to defend Wings against the attacks by the powers that be, and Pastachips is absolutely right to be angry about any misogyny.
Personalities are not the point, it is the points they are making that need to be understood.
If we retreat to who is right and who is wrong in terms of personalities, then we might as well give up and go home.
Any analysis of patriarchy or class starts from recognising how gender etc is shaped by social context. There is no point blaming an individual for having grown up in a certain context as if that was there fault, there is every point in pointing out that they/ we need to be able to see the world from other perspectives and stop conflating our narrow experience with how the world is.
Hi EyeEdinburgh,
Dialogue is possible – we’re having it!
When I talk about dialogue, I am meaning dialogue between the people who read and think. Some are more focused on deep long term change and some more on the immediate battles. How these can align so that we can take the next steps on a 1000 mile journey and make sure that journey is headed in the right direction, is what matters.
If a context came up where it was appropriate to propose this angle on Wings I’d be happy to do so, and I’m sure the response would be informative but we are all capable of being certain we’re right and others wrong.
Granted Stuart Campbell seems very certain of himself – and other people’s certainty can be a pain in the neck wherever it is – but that is not just a bad thing. It may also be what allows him to not be deflected from being very sharp in his analysis of the lies and contortions of the No side. For that, his contribution is extremely useful. On the other hand, Pastachips pointing out that there is a whole world of patriarchy that needs addressing is a crucial point too.
I wouldn’t ridicule either of them or you, and I think most of us reading wouldn’t either. This all matters too much to us to let it descend into the kind of personality cults and clashes that we know the left (historically) has been so capable of in defeat, and the right so capable of in Government.
#22 by EyeEdinburgh on June 25, 2014 - 11:25 pm
When I talk about dialogue, I am meaning dialogue between the people who read and think.
If in your view RevStu neither reads nor thinks, why bother defending him?
It may also be what allows him to not be deflected from being very sharp in his analysis of the lies and contortions of the No side.
Not in my experience. He just doesn’t bother to do the research. As you appear to have acknowledged, he neither reads nor thinks, nor is he interested in either deep long term change nor more immediate battles. As far as I can see, the “battle” he is fighting is “Stuart Campbell is to be right”. Even when he’s definitely proved wrong.
#23 by .Indy on June 25, 2014 - 7:47 pm
I was not making an argument but an observation.
#24 by Brian Nicholson on June 25, 2014 - 11:28 pm
When I saw that the writer of the article above refused to provide his or her name and that the site allowed this diatribe to be printed without this identification, I lost all interest in the content of the article. If the writer truly believed the content, there should be no fear of taking ownership of the comments. Given the content, I will not be surprised to see this site drawn in to court to defend the libelous comments included. Better Nation has been the voice of higher standards, but unfortunately, not in this case.
#25 by Andrew Morton on June 26, 2014 - 1:42 pm
The fact that I have made three comments and had them all deleted justifies my decision to mention the fact on Twitter.
#26 by James on June 26, 2014 - 3:06 pm
No, it’s because in none of them did you show any sign of having read the blogpost to which you were supposedly responding, and instead you just imputed motives to the author of which there is no evidence in her piece. But feel free to say anything on Twitter that you like.
#27 by Andrew Morton on June 26, 2014 - 8:47 pm
Hey, thanks for finally giving me a hearing. First off, you’re wrong in assuming (assume makes and ass out of u and me) that I hadn’t read the article. I read every word. Secondly my point that, while attacking Stuart Campbell personally, the writer chooses to remain anonymous and doesn’t have the courage of her convictions, is a valid one.
Thirdly, the fact that the article comes at exactly the moment when Better Together has begun personal attacks on Stuart Campbell (having failed to answer any of the points he makes in the 2,500 plus articles published on the site ) and making exactly the same points suggests that, if not coordinated, there is a common mindset involved. It’s also fascinating, given the fact that women are known to be the major group holding out from moving to Yes that the author of the most widely read indy blog is being attacked for misogyny apparently by a woman, but how do we know as she is not prepared to put her name to her beliefs.
As to whether Stuart Campbell is misogynistic I leave to others to judge. Personally I don’t believe he is but that’s only my opinion. If someone is going to write an article for an online blog which is available to all then he or she can expect readers to offer criticism. To deal with that criticism by suppressing it doesn’t lead one to suppose that the blog owner has the courage of his convictions.
#28 by Justin Kenrick on June 27, 2014 - 7:37 am
What I appreciated in Pastachips article was her pointing out that patriarchy is still with us and needs addressing, and I appreciated the anger she feels about that and that I share. If Pastachips is right that Stuart at Wings over Scotland is not (e.g.) taking domestic violence seriously in relation to Bill Walker then the kindest response would be to say that he’s done this because he is responding to the way those in power sought to use this to try to smear the movement for democracy here (the Yes movement); BUT the movement for democracy is not just the movement that is working flat out for a Yes against those with overwhelming economic and media might to stop us, it is also the movement of all those who are marginalised and so it must stand up for Bill Walker’s daughter and ex-wives, and we all need to be big enough to see when we end up defending the indefensible.
I am not going to be bounced by anyone into dismissing Wings or into uncritical support for Wings. I support it, as I support all pro-independence sites and arguments, including this one, on merit. I appreciate Robin Macalpine and Wings for the huge tonic they give to those of us trying to see through the lies of the mainstream media with its job of confusing and dividing and deceiving us into voting No or into believing voting Yes will make no difference.
It is fine for people to be on the No side in this, but if No is going to win then it needs to win on the issues, not by trying to distract us, deceive us and divide us. That kind of victory will be no victory at all. It will be the start of much deeper changes than the No side can ever imagine.
When I listed all those I agreed with and James you were confused by this, I was saying I can see how each of you was quite right to be angry – but the source of your anger is not ultimately the individuals some of you are attacking, the source is this system of entitlement for some and impoverishment for everyone else, of recognition for some and dismissal for everyone else. We all care, so let’s get on the same side, and continue working night and day to do something about it.
Wee ginger dug said it well in his post today:
“As we approach 18 September, and the possibility of a Yes vote becomes real, there is a greater tendency to jump the gun and start fighting the fights we can only fight in an independent Scotland. Right now we’re 83 days away from the referendum, hoping that Yes supporters do not criticise other Yes supporters is not the same as asking women or gay people or black people not to tackle pressing issues of sexism, homophobia or racism until the glorious day sometime in a vague and undetermined future when the revolution arrives and all these things will be sorted for us. There’s an expiry date on the referendum special offer, and it’s one that’s not far off. On 19 September, everything changes. And after that date, we will still have our own priorities – but with a Yes vote we’ll have the tools we need to tackle them ourselves.”