A wee guest this morning from Duncan Hothersall on the Westminster workfare vote. Duncan’s a Labour member who (he says) talks too much on Twitter. He used to be big in LGBT rights, now he dabbles in broader politics. He helps to run Scottish Fabians, a left-leaning members-led think tank, blogs less often than he’d like to for various sites including Labour Hame and Bella Caledonia, and eschews the description “unionist” despite favouring Scotland remaining within the UK. In real life he works in online education.
Yesterday evening the bulk of the Parliamentary Labour Party in Westminster followed instructions and abstained on a vote about the government’s widely disliked workfare scheme. Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Liam Byrne is not a popular figure on the left – or even in the centre – and if anything the list of rebels who voted against was smaller than might be expected.
After all, it is not hard to understand the principle that work without pay is immoral, anathema to Labour values, and Labour should oppose it at all costs.
And indeed the wailing and gnashing of teeth has been loud and long, and Byrne is probably only spared a more vicious bout of in-fighting by virtue of the fact that the budget will take over the headlines tomorrow.
But why would Labour fail to oppose workfare? Why would we abstain on a measure which is clearly an undermining of the fundamental right to fair pay? The answer, it seems to me, is that this vote was not about workfare or the right to fair pay. It was, as real life often is, far more complex, and messy, than a choice between right and wrong.
First of all, we need to remember that last month’s judgement by the Court of Appeal did not rule workfare to be forced labour, for all the rejoicing at the outcome. In fact the court ruled substantially in the government’s favour, only failing them on how they described the schemes in regulations. So far from welcoming this judgement, we should have been regretting it, because all the government needed to do was change the regulations – which they did the very same day – and then work out how to avoid repaying docked benefits, which was always going to be relatively easy for a government with a working majority.
And that solution – not workfare as a whole, not the principle of withholding benefits, just the issue of avoiding repaying previously docked benefits – was the subject of yesterday evening’s vote. So Labour did not abstain from a yes/no vote on workfare after all. Workfare is already in place, and the result of the vote would not have changed that.
Byrne has been criticised most vocally for asserting that Labour agrees with the principle that the DWP should have the power to impose sanctions. This has been painted as a shift to Tory ground. But in reality, Labour’s flagship programmes of recent decades – including the widely praised New Deal – had sanction provisions. This is no change in Labour policy, and those making hay out of it now must surely know that.
Messiest of all, Byrne believed he could, in return for abstention, secure concessions from IDS which flat-out opposition would not achieve. Among them, he sought a guarantee that wrongly sanctioned JSA claimants could still appeal that decision. And he asked for an independent review of the sanctions regime, to report to parliament quickly. Most significantly, he called for a Real Jobs Guarantee for young people, involving a paid job for six months, rather than unpaid workfare. It remains to be seen whether these concessions have been achieved, but they are surely worthy aims.
There is no question that yesterday evening’s vote didn’t look good, and those who want to will be able to make trouble within the party over it. And Liam Byrne may quite reasonably be unpopular for past choices. But if we are to debate the rights and wrongs, let us at least do so with reason. This was not a vote in favour of unpaid workfare; it was abstention on an issue the government would win anyway, in order to try to achieve a slightly better outcome for those affected.
That’s not a great soundbite, is it. But aren’t we always saying how much we hate soundbite politics? Here is politics in the raw. It’s an ugly thing and people get hurt by it. Let’s make sure we argue it honestly, and place the blame correctly.
#1 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 10:40 am
Yes, let’s place the blame correctly. It belongs with Labour, who invented workfare in the first place, in the form of the “New Deal”, which did exactly the same thing the Tories are doing now – forced people to go and work in charity shops on pain of the removal of benefits.
#2 by Tris on March 21, 2013 - 3:42 pm
The Tories did it before Labour with Project Work in 1996-7. Labour allowed the Project Work to run its course, while it was starting New Deal.
The original idea of Project Work was that people should have experience of work in factories, shop, stores, whatever, but Labour and the Unions put up a fight and said it was exploitation. If commercial concerns had vacancies, they should employ people, they said. Opportunities therefore had to be in the voluntary sector, charities, churches, etc.
My first job involved being a part of the running of one of the Project Work units in my town, and it very nearly put me off this kind of work for life. it was a pointless exercise in taking LTU people off the dole for 13 weeks, so that when they went back, which nearly every single one did, they would be short term unemployed. Made the figures look so much better.
In fairness, the programme was not rolled out everywhere, but would have been had Labour not won in 1997.
It was wrong, just as this one is. To take people who are volunteering in an area where they want to find work, and stick them in a job they are hopelessly over-qualified for and hate with a passion, and pay them nothing for doing it, while Tesco or Poundland are laughing all the way to the bank is simply criminal. It is shameful that more Labour MPs didn’t tell Byrne where to get off.
As Duncan says, he’s not popular with the left or the middle… I wonder if he’s not a bit on the right wing side for Jacob Reece-Mogg!
#3 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 11:12 am
(In a very similar way, of course, to how Labour also invented the bedroom tax, applying it to private tenants – in the form of the Local Housing Allowance in 2008, which also penalised people for having “extra” bedrooms – before the Tories came along and finished the job by extending the policy to social tenants.)
#4 by M Landers on March 20, 2013 - 11:21 am
Actually I was not esp concerned with most of the above as it was immaterial to the vote on the day – it was the retrospective changing of laws to ensure a court decision could not be upheld that ‘irked’. It’s all about democracy in the end, not the whole workfare debacle which was started by ‘New’ Labour, brought to a new level of absurdity by the present Govt and will no doubt continue under whatever Govt is next in place.
#5 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 11:38 am
Aye, indeed. Mr Hothersall’s piece is an attempted deflection from a far more serious issue – Labour’s collusion with the Tories in what amounts to the destruction of the rule of law. Court judgement goes against you and in favour of the poor? Go back in time and change the law retrospectively so it suits you!
Set against that, Byrne’s feeble justification of “extracting concessions” (why would Cameron bother conceding anything, since he can pass the bill anyway?) looks even more craven and useless than it already did.
#6 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 11:54 am
No attempt at deflection. I simply didn’t address that issue.
And you seem determined, like many others, to ignore the fact that Labour did not collude with the Tories and Lib Dems. They abstained. And the vote would have gone in the government’s favour even had every Labour MP voted against. So the idea that Labour is responsible for that outcome is ludicrous.
I understand that concessions were indeed granted on the basis of the abstention. You may recall that the SNP granted the Scottish Greens concessions in the Scottish budget in return for them abstaining. So it’s hardly an unheard-of notion.
The issue of retrospective legislation is troubling, I agree, and last night’s vote in favour of it by Tories and Lib Dems and NOT A SINGLE LABOUR MP warrants concern.
#7 by James Kelly on March 20, 2013 - 2:56 pm
“I understand that concessions were indeed granted on the basis of the abstention.”
Can you tell us what those concessions were?
#8 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 4:05 pm
A right to appeal for sanctioned JSA claimants and a quick independent review of the sanctions regime.
#9 by Paul Martin on March 20, 2013 - 4:26 pm
Owen Jones puts it so much better than me:
“Think again. Labour’s spokesperson on the welfare state, Liam Byrne, demanded that Labour MPs merely abstain; sit on their hands, hide in the toilet, whatever. It’s actually worse than that: this Bill only received emergency timetabling with Labour’s help. It was supposedly in exchange for a concession: that an “independent review of the sanctions regime” must report to Parliament. The history of “independent reviews” suggest that “pointless exercise” would be a generous description, at best.”
#10 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 8:41 pm
I’ve read Owen’s piece. He has a long-standing grudge against Liam Byrne, with some justification, but he also chooses to ignore things to suit himself. Specifically, he ignores the fact that this was not a vote for or against workfare. That’s a silly thing to ignore.
#11 by Haver on March 20, 2013 - 4:30 pm
“…Labour did not collude with the Tories and Lib Dems. They abstained.”
So by abstaining they showed the world just how much they are against this disgusting legislation?
I can only assume that by not voting against it they are for it, but just don’t want to come out of the Tory closet and say so.
#12 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 5:22 pm
It’s an extraordinary situation where some people object not to unpaid workfare but to the retrospective legislation making the DWP’s unlawful sanctions lawful – but the Labour Party doesn’t object to retrospective legislation and in fact pro-actively helped it pass swiftly through Parliament – and some people object to the unpaid workfare that the Labour Party has now colluded with the Tories and LibDems to support – and some people, of course, object to both.
Meanwhile, Duncan is trying to pretend that the Labour Party is what he wants it to be and not what the Shadow Cabinet and the Whip say it is.
#13 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 8:45 pm
How about you leave it to me to speak for me? You are making the same conflation Owen Jones makes. Workfare is already law. This was not a vote for or against workfare.
#14 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 9:13 pm
I’m not trying to speak for you, Duncan. I’m accepting as fact that you don’t support workfare, and I also take your word for it that you evidently wish the Labour Party doesn’t, strongly enough that you want it to be so.
But facts are facts, and you can’t change the fact that the Labour Party in the UK Parliament for the most part does support workfare – with a few dozen honourable exceptions.
Yesterday’s vote was a vote on whether people who had been unlawfully deprived of desperately-needed benefits because of their entanglement in workfare programmes, should get to have their lawful due or whether the government would get away with retrospective legislation to make the unlawful lawful.
Labour opted to support the government’s actions. While not explicitly a vote on whether workfare should happen, it was a vote about workfare. And the government setting itself above the law.
#15 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 9:20 pm
I’m accepting as fact that you don’t support workfare,
Whoops – just read further down. How silly of me. You do support forced labour under threat of deprivation. Ho hum.
#16 by David Lee on March 20, 2013 - 12:17 pm
I would argue that Labour certainly DID collude, as they actively helped to get the motion rushed through without proper scrutiny. Whilst knowing fine well that today’s budget would dominate the headlines.
#17 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 12:43 pm
Precisely. The vote would have to have been delayed until after the Supreme Court ruling had Labour not so eagerly co-operated, presumably hoping the story would be lost in Budget coverage. As it happened, the media hasn’t covered it at all anyway, which is terrifying.
Byrne supports workfare and sanctions. He has said so openly in the Commons, and it’s on the record in Hansard. And since he’s the person Labour have made shadow secretary for Work and Pensions, the only rational conclusion that can be drawn is that they’re official policy.
#18 by Big Bill on March 20, 2013 - 12:39 pm
If people don’t want to take part in workfare, new deals or work experience, why force them? Why not simply let them enjoy their benefits? It’s their right to do just that under EU law, is it not? So why this desire to penalise people who aren’t interested in going out to work for a living/ There’s only ever a handful of them and given they’re so few in number it’s ridiculous to suggest they trouble the economy in any way. Let’s not forget why we’re expected to maintain this consumer society, to provide riches through taxation of our efforts for the very people who forced us from our peaceful lving on the fields and common lands by closing them off and forcing us into their factories. What we’re in is an entirely artificial situation and we’re not here for our own good by any means. Forcing people who are uninclined to do so into working seems to be playing into the hands of those who set this battery farm society up in the first place. It makes me wonder, just whose side exactly are Labour on here? Are Labour and the Tory parties revealed by their attitudes as no more than two sides of the same coin?
#19 by Dubbieside on March 20, 2013 - 4:26 pm
Big Bill
Yes they are two sides of the same coin.
The one difference is that in Scotland Labour try to pretend that they are a socialist party, where in England they are just tory not so light.
Thats why they campaign against Remploy factory closures in Scotland, when 28 Remploy factories were closed when Brown was PM.
In Scotland they demand that the Scottish Government does something to stop the bedroom tax, but at Westminster they support eviction if someone does not move to a smaller house.
Theres a word for that it escapes me at the monent.
#20 by Paul Martin on March 20, 2013 - 2:30 pm
Our Duncan is an entertaining Labour contortionist who continually stretches his principles beyond breaking point to cling onto the edge of Labour’s increasingly reactionary and ever expanding orthodoxy. If you want to read what a normal Labour activist feels about it – unspun – then take a look at this Owen Jones article.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/workfare-why-did-so-many-labour-mps-accept-this-brutal-unforgivable-attack-on-vulnerable-people-8542193.html
#21 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 2:40 pm
it was abstention on an issue the government would win anyway
That argument would suggest Labour might as well abstain on almost every vote from now til May 2015.
After all, Conservatives/LibDems are going to win anyway, so why should Labour bother showing up to vote against them?
#22 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 2:44 pm
And that solution – not workfare as a whole, not the principle of withholding benefits, just the issue of avoiding repaying previously docked benefits – was the subject of yesterday evening’s vote.
And Labour opted to collude with the Tories and LibDems in cheating people unlawfully deprived of their benefits.
Indeed, as Liam Byrne made clear in an article written before the vote and in debate, the modern Labour party is not a party for the poorest, but a party that supports the idea that people on benefits who don’t cooperate with being sent on workfare placements can be sanctioned – and supports the Tory government in sanctioning these people unlawfully.
#23 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 3:35 pm
“We were set up as the party to represent the values of working people, working being the key word. We weren’t set up as some sort of charity to help the poorest in society – the long-term unemployed, the benefit dependent, the drug addicted, the homeless.” – Tom Harris MP, March 2012
They don’t even hide it. If you’re unemployed, on benefits or homeless, Labour has nothing for you.
#24 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 4:10 pm
As I said in the article, it has been Labour policy for decades that the DWP should be able to impose sanctions on benefits claimants. That does not mean Labour is not on the side of the poorest or most vulnerable – quite the opposite. It means benefits can be fair.
Labour does not support unpaid workfare, and we will continue to argue for paid schemes instead of the current unpaid ones.
#25 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 4:15 pm
“That does not mean Labour is not on the side of the poorest or most vulnerable – quite the opposite” – you.
“We weren’t set up as some sort of charity to help the poorest in society” – Tom Harris.
Which of you is lying?
#26 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 8:45 pm
These are not mutually exclusive positions.
#27 by Keir Hardly on March 20, 2013 - 10:10 pm
Wow! You truly are an indefatigable spin machine. You’re a real asset to Ingsoc.
#28 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 10:25 pm
It’s hardly spin to point out that these are not mutually exclusive positions. They simply aren’t.
#29 by Keir Hardly on March 21, 2013 - 9:11 am
Amazing. I’d often thought the cybernats must be exaggerating about you, but that’s breathtaking.
It’s obviously true on some anally-retentive semantic level that “We weren’t set up to help the poorest” and “We’re on the side of the poorest” aren’t technically exclusive. But to try to make a political case out of it is way past disingenuous.
In full context, the meaning of Harris’s comments is unmistakeable – he specifically contrasts “the poorest” with working people, and explicitly aligns Labour with the latter rather than the former. He doesn’t say “We support all these groups” – he makes a point of saying “We are for these people, NOT those people”.
You know that full well, yet clutch at a tiny figleaf of grammar to avoid facing up to the reality of Labour’s abandonment of the most vulnerable, just like you’ve dodged responding to my earlier points about Labour inventing both workfare and the bedroom tax.
People are right. You really will try to spin absolutely anything, no matter how hopeless. You’re a disgrace to everything the Labour Party once stood for.
#30 by Duncan Hothersall on March 21, 2013 - 10:49 am
Many thanks for your thoughtful and generous comments.
I am right on a semantic level and, incidentally, you are wrong on a semantic level. And since semantics is about what things actually mean, that’s pretty important in my view.
Your interpretation of what Tom Harris *meant* by his comments is not semantic, but subjective. And that’s fine too, except that in my opinion you’re wrong again: by his words and actions over many years Tom has shown that he and Labour are on the side of the poorest and most vulnerable.
As for your accusation that I ignored your point about Labour setting up the New Deal, I find that a rather curious assertion, given that in para 7 of the original article I made that point MYSELF.
I like a good debate. I wish I could find one.
#31 by Keir Hardly on March 21, 2013 - 12:01 pm
“by his words and actions over many years Tom has shown that he and Labour are on the side of the poorest and most vulnerable”
If that’s honestly what you get from this:
“We were set up as the party to represent the values of working people, working being the key word. We weren’t set up as some sort of charity to help the poorest in society”
…then I wish you the very best of luck in trying to sell it to people. Didn’t seem to work in 2011,and the polls don’t seem to be shifting much since then. Still, I’m sure attacking universal benefits will do the trick.
#32 by Keir Hardly on March 21, 2013 - 12:35 pm
“As for your accusation that I ignored your point about Labour setting up the New Deal, I find that a rather curious assertion, given that in para 7 of the original article I made that point MYSELF.”
When you described it as the “widely-praised” New Deal, I assumed you must have been talking about something completely different.
I was a subject of ND, and I can promise you that neither I nor any of the other conscripts had any words of praise for it. The only difference between it and the new Tory implementation of forced labour was that ND paid 50p an hour. I believe many prisoners in Scottish jails get considerably more than that for their work.
#33 by James Kelly on March 20, 2013 - 4:16 pm
“That does not mean Labour is not on the side of the poorest or most vulnerable – quite the opposite.”
Then why in heaven’s name did your party introduce the Atos catastrophe? Are you proud of that? Would you defend it?
#34 by Dubbieside on March 20, 2013 - 4:29 pm
Thats not what Tom Harris says.
I do not know, fortunately not being a Labour apologist, but I would suspect Harris is closer to what is Labour party policy than you are.
#35 by Dubbieside on March 20, 2013 - 4:37 pm
Could you point me to the policies where Labour are on the side of the poorest?
Labour introduced the Bedroom tax, further expanded by their tory pals.
Labour employed ATOS, whos employment was continued by their tory pals to carry on with the tasks they were first employ for, harassing the sick and the disabled.
Labour introduced workfare, further expanded with enthusiasm by their tory pals.
Todays Labour party would not recognise a socialist policy and would certainly never introduce one.
#36 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 5:18 pm
Labour does not support unpaid workfare
I’m sure you don’t, but the Labour Whip disagrees with you. I’m really proud of Mark Lazarowicz, but he is one of only 36 Labour MPs who defied the Whip to vote No yesterday.
You won’t change Labour back to being the party that actiually is on the side of the poorest or most vulnerable, by pretending that the current party policy is different from what the Labour Party’s MPs and Whip say it is.
#37 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 8:51 pm
I fear I must yet again point out that yesterday’s vote was NOT a vote for or against workfare. So what you are ascribing to the Labour whips is not actually true.
I suspect you don’t really care about that though. Workfare is bad, and this is an opportunity to have a go at it. The fact that this wasn’t actually a vote on it is a mere technicality. The key thing is that workfare is bad.
And I agree with you that unpaid workfare is bad. But I don’t agree that all workfare is bad, and I don’t agree that no sanctions should be applicable to people on paid workfare.
#38 by EyeEdinburgh on March 20, 2013 - 9:19 pm
But I don’t agree that all workfare is bad
Well, that’s right-wing thinking for you: if someone’s unemployed, it’s okay to force them into work they don’t want to do. Never mind that this will tend to ensure they’re less likely to find a job. If a person deserved to have a job, they’d be in a job.
And I agree with you that unpaid workfare is bad.
But the Labour Party doesn’t. Hence the Whip yesterday.
, and I don’t agree that no sanctions should be applicable to people on paid workfare.
Quite. If someone’s on benefits, clearly they don’t have the ability to make rational choices on their own: they should be compelled to do what they’re told or starve.
#39 by Duncan Hothersall on March 20, 2013 - 9:39 pm
The problem with this conversation is the same as the problem with the debate in general. I’m opposed to much of the thrust of the government’s workfare scheme. But it is NOT the black and white issue you paint it as.
#40 by Barbara Gribbon on March 20, 2013 - 4:03 pm
So when a ruling group puts forward a proposal they are going to win anyway, the Labour opposition should just let it pass, intent on opposing the big issue rather than a mere distraction in the debate?
Like they did in Dundee over the Bedroom tax proposal put forward by the SNP?
#41 by Haver on March 20, 2013 - 4:22 pm
Mr Hothersall wrote: “Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Liam Byrne is not a popular figure on the left …”
What left would that be? From where I’m standing the only political Parties I can see in Westminster which appear to be left of centre are Plaid Cymru and the SNP – Both delivering socialist policies and espousing what used to be Labour values.
What we have now in Lib/Lab/Con is three Parties of the right fighting tooth and nail for the vote in middle England. Labour used to be the the Party of the working man, the downtrodden and the poor – Alas, no more. They sold their soul in order to out Tory the Tories in middle England and lost their way, along with the plot, and have ended up as the neo Tory Party. They just can’t bring themselves to admit it.
#42 by James on March 20, 2013 - 4:30 pm
Don’t forget Caroline Lucas and the Greens. Also, you’re seriously off-beam if you think the SNP can in any way be described as socialist – cf the Council Tax Freeze, which redistributes from poor to rich. Name me a single economically progressive use of the existing powers of the Scottish Parliament since 2007.
#43 by Haver on March 20, 2013 - 4:44 pm
Apologies, James.
From where I’m standing the only political Parties I can see in Westminster which appear to be left of centre are Plaid Cymru, The Greens and the SNP.
#44 by James on March 20, 2013 - 7:47 pm
Thanks – sorry if I was a bit confrontational in my reply.
#45 by Richard on March 21, 2013 - 1:29 am
Labour by abstaining provided tacit support for workfare and a vicious sanctions regime. Lets not fool ourselves, Labour has a long history of supporting workfare. I was forced to take part in mandatory workfare at a retail outlet for 30 hours/13 weeks under Labour, this after graduating with a degree in Economics. After completing 13 weeks of workfare, I was not offered a paid position. I was actually asked by the retail outlet if I would like to continue working for free. And they call those on benefits scroungers.
#46 by Duncan Hothersall on March 21, 2013 - 11:43 am
Liam Byrne has set out his own version of what happened here. Worth a read in my opinion:
http://labourlist.org/2013/03/the-jobseekers-bill-is-difficult-for-labour-but-i-think-weve-made-the-right-call/
#47 by Richard on March 21, 2013 - 1:19 pm
Byrne keeps repeating the 1911 line, he doesn’t seem to realise at no point has there been such a vicious sanctions regime. 2 week sanction for missing an appointment, even if you had a good reason to miss it. The sanction is automatically applied and you must appeal to have it removed. A second and third missed appointment for whatever reason and you face a 6 month sanction. Absolutely disgusting. 6 months in benefit sanctions for missing 3 pointless appointments on a programme with a success rate of 2% in finding people work. A programme which makes you less likely to find work than if you are not on it. Labour has blood on their hands.
#48 by Duncan Hothersall on March 21, 2013 - 5:56 pm
This Tory workfare setup IS indeed awful, and we OPPOSE it. But we do NOT oppose the principle of a DWP being able to implement sanctions.
Labour’s proposal is a 6 month guaranteed job scheme which would be paid. We were unable to persuade a parliamentary majority to back it. Meanwhile we managed to retain the right to appeal under the Tories’ revolting system as you set out.
The outcome is bad. It could have been even worse. Voting against would have made it worse.
#49 by Tris on March 21, 2013 - 6:53 pm
A six month, properly paid job is a great idea.
Labour tried that for very long term unemployed people some time ago (I forget what it was called). It was minimum wage for a year. The government paid all or most of the costs, but the person settled into the idea that work was what they did. It was moderately successful, but many LTU simply don’t want to work, and left after the year was over.
I think that the scheme was, at base, a damned good one. It should have been triggered at 6 months though, not 2+ years. It would, of course, have been MUCH more expensive, but it probably would have brought REAL results.
#50 by Big Bill on March 21, 2013 - 6:14 pm
Voting against it would have meant Labour thought benefit claimants are like every other citizen fully entitled to protection under law. Now they’ve made it plain they don’t. That’s it. Bye Labour.