If the First Minister won’t take legal advice on EU accession, Better Nation will get some on his behalf – in this case advice contrary to one of the editors’ perspectives on the issue.
Stuart MacLennan teaches European Union Law at Trinity College, Dublin, where he’s a doctoral researcher. He is a former advisor to Labour on Europe and External Affairs in the Scottish Parliament.
The debate surrounding the question of a newly-independent Scotland’s membership, or otherwise, of the European Union is, to many, a confusing one. This is likely due, in part, to the fact that two parallel debates appear to be taking place. The question as to whether or not a newly-independent Scotland would be a member of the European Union is often confused with the question of whether or not such membership would be automatic. It is the opinion of this author that while a newly-independent Scotland would almost certainly be a member of the EU, it would certainly not be “automatic”.
It is worth noting that there is five recognized means by which a state can be created:
- Secession;
- Dissolution;
- Merger;
- Absorption;
- Decolonisation.
It is important, in the context of the current discourse, to correctly categorize Scotland, as each category tends to attract different treatment under International Law. Some have argued, quite incorrectly, that Scottish Independence would be a dissolution of the United Kingdom. This would have significant consequences for the remainder of the United Kingdom, as it would have to seek recognition as a “successor state” rather than simply being a continuing state.
There is no precedent, nor any unique grounds, to suggest that the forthcoming referendum could result in the dissolution of the United Kingdom through the repeal of the Act of Union. First, Irish independence did not result in any change in status for the United Kingdom, despite being merged by a similar Act of Union in 1800. Secondly, the s30 Order agreed by the Scottish and UK Governments only “unreserves” the holding of a referendum on “The Constitution” under the general reservations contained within Schedule V of the Scotland Act 1998, leaving the Schedule IV specific protection for the Act of Union reserved. A semantic point, but nonetheless significant in that it appears to be a recognition by the SNP that Scottish Independence would be a secession on the part of Scotland, rather than a dissolution of the United Kingdom. It is the opinion of the author that that Scottish independence would certainly be a secession.
Heavy reliance has been placed upon the Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties, in particular by the SNP. It is worth, at this point, making a few cautionary notes about the Vienna Convention however. First, the Convention is principally concerned with decolonization – with “successor states” being colonial powers and “newly independent states” former colonies. The International Law Commission wanted to insert a category of “quasi-newly independent states” to deal with secessions in the non-colonial context, which would apply more specifically to cases like Scotland, however France and Switzerland objected, not wanting to encourage separatist movements within their own territories.
Secondly, the European Union has shown scant regard for the principles of International Law in the past (it began with Van Gend en Loos v. The Netherlands, and just spiralled from there).
Finally, a mere 22 states have ratified the Vienna Convention, only six of which (Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia, & Slovenia) are presently in the EU. However as the SNP’s arguments are firmly rooted in the application of the convention, it is therefore necessary to give it further consideration.
The case on which the proponents of automatic EU membership relied hinges on Article 34(1) of the Convention, which states:
When a part or parts of the territory of a State separate to form one or more States, whether or not the predecessor State continues to exist:
(a) any treaty in force at the date of the succession of States in respect of the entire territory of the predecessor State continues in force in respect of each successor State so formed;
On that basis alone Scotland would surely accede to all of the United Kingdom’s treaties upon independence. However international practice would suggest otherwise. Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, only Russia was deemed to succeed to most international instruments. Furthermore when Pakistan separated from India, the United Nations (hardly a difficult club to gain membership of) admitted Pakistan as a new member and recognized India as a continuing member – a practice which has been followed in every subsequent case of secession.
International practice was recognized by the International Law Commission in its commentary on the Vienna convention:
In many organizations, membership, other than original membership, is subject to a formal process of admission. Where this is so, practice appears now to have established the principle that a new State is not entitled automatically to become a party to the constituent treaty and a member of the organization as a successor State, simply by reason of the fact that at the date of the succession its territory was subject to the treaty and within the ambit of the organization.
This practice was therefore recognized in Article 4 of the convention, which states that:
The present Convention applies to the effects of a succession of States in respect of: (a) any treaty which is the constituent instrument of an international organization without prejudice to the rules concerning acquisition of membership and without prejudice to any other relevant rules of the organization;
(emphasis added)
It is clear, therefore, that both customary norms of international law, as well as positive international law, would not see an independent Scotland as a continuing member of the European Union.
However, it has also been suggested that EU Law is different from all other instruments of international law, because it purports to be directly effective. In particular, it has been suggested that the “EU citizenship” rights enjoyed by Scots would continue by virtue of the doctrine of direct effect. This is quite incorrect. The concept of “EU Citizenship” is often confused with citizenship of Member States of the European Union. While it is the case that the Treaty of Maastricht establishes the concept of citizenship of the European Union, it is by no means clear that such citizenship exists independently of citizenship of the Member State. One cannot, therefore, rely upon EU citizenship rights as somehow creating or continuing EU membership – they are the product of a state being a member of the EU, not the cause.
EU Law is, of itself, only directly effective by virtue of EU membership. It is not a super-sovereign authority that is effective without the consent of the governed (Member States). EU Law is only effective because the authorities of the Member State give effect to it (through the courts, administration, police, etc.) even if the legislation itself originates from Brussels. Without its own means of enforcement, the purported “supremacy” of EU Law over a territory is dependent upon continuing membership and acquiescence of Member States. Membership, therefore, marks both the beginning and the end of the direct effect of EU Law. It is, therefore, a fallacy to suggest that the direct effect of EU Law over the territory of Scotland exists in perpetuity.
Of course, the foregoing discourse is merely one of European and International Law – perhaps the sort of discourse that might be contained in legal advice from the Lord Advocate to the First Minister. Given the body of evidence that suggests that Scotland would not be a continuing member of the European Union, it is perhaps hardly surprising that the Scottish Government has not sought formal legal advice on the matter.
That is not to say that just because Scotland would not automatically be a member of the European Union, that it would not be a member at all. International law is inherently intertwined with international relations. It is the opinion of the author that – while not a continuing member of the European Union – Scotland would find itself in the position of a candidate state that satisfies all of the accession criteria. In that circumstance, it is entirely possible that immediate accession could be achieved through negotiation. However such matters of European politics are beyond the scope of this discussion.
#1 by Doug Daniel on November 8, 2012 - 10:04 am
“In that circumstance, it is entirely possible that immediate accession could be achieved through negotiation. However such matters of European politics are beyond the scope of this discussion.”
And therein lies the fundamental flaw in the current obsession with legal advice.
The reality is this will all be decided through a negotiation process, and the main factor that informs that process will be political will, rather than legalities. If all the legal advice pointed towards Scotland being forced to undergo a ten-year accession process, for example, would anyone (other than those who want to cast doubt) seriously think the parties concerned wouldn’t find a way around that?
Scotland wants to remain in the EU. The remainder of the UK – regardless of the unionist parties’ attempts to cast doubt on all this – would want Scotland to remain in the EU. The EU – including Spain – would want Scotland to remain in the EU. When it comes down to it, these are the only facts that matter.
It’s interesting that the old mantra of “Scotland would be chucked out and forced to reapply from scratch” that has been so prevalent in the unionist argument for so many years, has all of a sudden been quietly replaced with “Scotland might be in the EU, but will be forced to do blah blah blah.” It’s no coincidence that this is happening at the same time that the opinion against Scotland being asked to reapply from scratch is becoming overwhelming. Just as sensible people change their view as the facts change, liars modify their lies when the old lies are scotched.
I actually think the most important facet of the EU saga is that the European Commission has confirmed it would offer its opinion if asked by the member state – i.e. the UK – which Westminster is refusing to do. Could it possibly be that this is because they’re scared of what the advice might be? After all, we’re still part of the UK, so a responsible Westminster government would be seeking out this advice on behalf of 5 million of its citizens – if only to get rid of all that terrible uncertainty that is apparently damaging the Scottish economy.
This is certainly an interesting article – but then so were all of Lalland Peat Worrier’s blogs on the legalities of a referendum. Just as the many law blogs pontificating on that subject were made totally irrelevant the second the Scottish and Westminster governments put pen to a legally-binding process, I suspect the practicalities of international politics will eventually trump articles such as this and make this another issue that we later look back on, wondering what all the fuss was about.
#2 by Alasdair Stirling on November 8, 2012 - 6:01 pm
Doug,
Unfortunately, the legal arguments are very relevant to the matter. If Scotland votes YES in 2014, there will years of wrangling over resources, territory and much else beyond.
The Unionists use the succession argument precisely because if they can define independence in terms of a succession UK territory (rather than a resurrection of the historic Kingdom of Scotland) then they can partition the country so as to retain access to its territory (Faslane and Coulport) and rights to its natural resources (Oil and exploitation of the seabed).
A quick look at the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty 1921 show that this is not just a hypothetical. Ireland got a proportionate share of the National Debt, but not the assets of the UKGBI state. UKGBNI retained treaty ports and control of Irish waters until 1936.
#3 by Iain Menzies on November 8, 2012 - 8:32 pm
A couple of things have changed since 1921….not the least of which is the passing of (for the most part) the British Empire. To say that HMG wants to partition scotland is….well i dont know what i can say that would be both accurate and get past moderation.
#4 by Doug Daniel on November 9, 2012 - 3:27 pm
Well the chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, Ian Davidson, thinks it would be a great idea. Tavish Scott as well, to a lesser extent.
So I think the phrase you’re looking for is: “To say that HMG wants to partition Scotland is not beyond the realms of the imagination.”
(Granted, neither of them are in the Westminster government, but there are politicians within HMG who are similar to those already floating the idea.)
#5 by Angus McLellan on November 9, 2012 - 12:05 am
But why should negotiations take significantly longer than they did in the case of the Velvet Divorce? More importantly, why would the present UK and Scottish governments want them to take longer than that? There would be significant benefits for both sides if a framework for negotiations could be agreed quickly which promised to reach a conclusion within 6-9 months. The most obvious advantage would be the possibility of excluding Scotland from the May 2015 election.
As for the rest, 1921 might as well be another world in many respects. The ICJ ruled in 1986 that uti possidetis iuris “is a general principle, which is logically connected with the phenomenon of obtaining independence, wherever it occurs”. Borders exist, and with them ownership of resources, so why make up stories to scare the credulous with?
The Anglo-Irish Treaty made no specific division of debts, falling back on a bland – and familiar to those who have read the Vienna conventions – appeal to equity. Whether the eventual division was equitable or not, it certainly wasn’t equal in any of the senses we find bandied around today. And Ireland did receive a share of UK assets. After all, it didn’t pay the UK for all those government buildings, roads and so on. As for the Treaty Ports, the deal was more complicated than often portrayed. In return for the ports, the UK assumed much of the responsibility for the defence of Ireland. Something for something then, and not something for nothing as you suggest.
#6 by Alasdair Stirling on November 9, 2012 - 9:38 pm
The Irish got only the assets that the British couldn’t physically remove. Granted, the British didn’t pursue a scorched earth policy. There again, they had just had their arses kicked so weren’t really in a position to do so.
#7 by Allan on November 8, 2012 - 7:03 pm
“Scotland wants to remain in the EU.”
How do you know this exactly? Like there are polls suggesting that most of the UK would like a referendum on continued participation in the EU, I suspect that we are not as in love with the EU as we were.
#8 by Andrew Smith on November 8, 2012 - 10:57 am
The big problem of the EU for the SNP has been a communications one. Most people are aware that International law is not straight forward, the problem is that to a lot of people it will seem like the FM inferred that it is. It was a self-inflicted communication wound and I think it was an error. I don’t think the FM lied and may not purposefully have misled, but people do have the right to have felt misled. Of course a large portion of the negative coverage is being gleefully whipped up by unionist parties, and that should come as no surprise.
If we accept that the whole issue is one with no definitive answers yet then we are thinking of likelihood. I don’t think anyone really believes the EU would say no to Scotland, but there is doubt about if Scotland would be treated as a new state or not. I don’t have the answers to that and I’m not sure that any bloggers really do. I think the above article makes a strong case, but I expect an equally eloquent case could be made for the exact opposite perspective too. I assume now that advice has been requested then it will be presented well in advance of the vote.
My worry about this issue is that the longer it is in the spotlight the less time there is to be making the case for independence. My assumption is that as all of the questions will be answered pre referendum it should take a back-seat for a while. If the SG allows this to still be an issue of political dispute come 2014 then it would be a disaster for the campaign.
#9 by Indy on November 8, 2012 - 3:30 pm
Communications are difficult because it is such a fast moving situation. The rest of the world is not going to stay still just because Scotland is thinking about independence!
For example one of the interesting aspects now opening up is the Catalonian argument for statehood within the EU. That’s the way they are formulating independence specifically because of the constitutional barrier in the Spanish constitution. Politically it has some merit – it gives the EU a pre-eminent position and will the EU knock that back when Catalonia would surely be a net contributor?
People may say ah but it is all down to the views of the individual states. If Spain says no Catalonia cannot become an independent state within the EU. But it is not that simple. Yes, each member state must agree to whatever is proposed but equally the EU – as a body – will take a view even if they do not admit it. And that institutional view will influence the member state governments.
And what are the implications for Scotland? Maybe something, maybe nothing. Do we not want to be an independent state full stop? Yes, we are committed to EU membership now but will that always be the case? Public opinion can change – and then change back again, of course!
There are a lot of options and twists and turns yet to come and that is not even considering the Tories and their in-out referendum malarkey.
#10 by JPJ2 on November 8, 2012 - 11:12 am
” In In that circumstance, it is entirely possible that immediate accession could be achieved through negotiation.”
I would change the word “possible” to “probable” to reflect the most likely outcome.
Other than that, Doug Daniel engages correctly with the realpolitick of the matter. Unionists should be prepared to lose the argument on this one, if not, yet, the referendum.
#11 by Shave on November 8, 2012 - 12:09 pm
‘the old mantra of “Scotland would be chucked out..’ is something I have never heard, although I have often heard ‘could be chucked out’. It’s all about the uncertainty.
It is the absence of information and advice on this subject that leads to the (occasionally wild) speculation.
Westminster won’t ask the European Commission for guidance, not because it is “scared” but because the continued speculation is damaging to the SNP. Not an honourable position to take, but understandable, and not about to change.
The SNP does have a problem in that any advice it gets will be non-binding, often contradictory and always subject to the whim of European politics. It would be difficult to explain to the public, and risks increasing uncertainty but surely preferable to “LA LA LA automatic entry LA LA LA go away nasty question” whilst wasting public money on obfuscation.
This will be one of the most important points that the ‘don’t knows’ want explored/explained prior to the indyref and yet no party, not even the SNP seems to want to do it.
#12 by Doug Daniel on November 9, 2012 - 3:06 pm
“‘the old mantra of “Scotland would be chucked out..’ is something I have never heard, although I have often heard ‘could be chucked out’. It’s all about the uncertainty.”
You’ve obviously not been paying much attention then:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/01/alex-salmond-scotland-eu-membership
“The UK government says an independent Scotland would have to apply as a new member state to join the European Union, with uncertain consequences.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/12/scottish-independence-europe-barroso_n_1877499.html
“Jose Manuel Barroso Says Independent Scotland Would Have To Re-Apply For EU Membership”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scotland-told-eu-application-is-a-must-1321814
“European Commission insists Scotland would have to apply to rejoin EU if it becomes independent”
And these are all from fairly recently, so if anything, I’m actually jumping the gun a bit by declaring that the language is changing from “you WILL have to re-apply” to “you MIGHT get in, but you’ll have to join the Euro, sign up to Schengen, and give up your first born.”
(I may have exaggerated a bit with the last one there, but only because Ian Davidson hasn’t thought of it yet.)
Herein lies the problem with scaremongering, because the more people think “hang on, that’s not what you were saying before”, the less likely they are to believe what you’re saying now.
#13 by Shave on November 9, 2012 - 4:00 pm
You have demonstrated that journalists spinning the comments of government spokesmen and Barroso have used that the “old mantra of “Scotland would be chucked out’”, so yes that point is conceded.
However, the spokesman from your Guardian link said “The most likely scenario is that the rest of the UK would be recognised as the continuing state and an independent Scotland would have to apply to join the EU as a new state..”
That’s a ‘could’, not ‘would’.
As your HuffPo link shows Barroso said “he would not speculate now about possible secessions within existing states, such as the UK”. He was specifically talking about new states.
As it is not clear if an independent Scotland would be classed as a new state that is not a ‘would’ either.
#14 by Indy on November 8, 2012 - 1:56 pm
I think all of these debates miss the core point.
How – practically – can Scotland cease to be in the EU? If we need to re-apply as Labour says then we will be applying from outside the EU.
How does that work? On day one of independence suddenly we are not in the EU. EU legislation suddenly ceases to apply. I am not an expert but a number of things occur to me immediately.
Not only would every Scot living in an EU nation lose their right to be there but so would every EU national in Scotland. Including presumably English people. How ironic would that be??
Secondly all EU regs around competition laws etc cease to apply. What would the implications of that be? Of course the unionist side would argue for border guards etc, a Berlin wall type scenario possibly! But how soon could they get that organised? A Scotland completely unrestrained by EU rules would be a very uncomfortable cuckoo in the UK nest even for a very short period of time!
Thirdly the CFP ceases to apply so we would get to kick all foreign boats out of Scottish seas. That one would be pretty popular I suggest!
That is just three possible immediate outcomes that would create a massive headache for Brussels.
And the bigger headache would be the fear that other nations/regions of Europe might follow suit. Because the biggest fear in Brussels is not of separatism, it is that the EU will itself collapse because it no longer seems attractive. Lose Scotland, others may follow.
#15 by Doug Daniel on November 9, 2012 - 3:09 pm
Several nails hit squarely on the head there.
#16 by Dubbieside on November 8, 2012 - 4:33 pm
There is only one point that is really relevant to this whole debate, that is the fact that the SNP want an independent Scotland to remain in the EU.
Turn that on its head for a minute and suppose that the SNP policy was to withdraw from the EU immediately on independence.
All of a sudden these “experts” would be lining up to tell us just why it would be impossible to just withdraw from the EU and be pointing to the case of Greenland and how long it took them to leave.
It makes the comment from shave right on the money,
“Westminster won’t ask the European Commission for guidance, not because it is “scared” but because the continued speculation is damaging to the SNP. Not an honourable position to take, but understandable, and not about to change.”
The only thing about shaveds comment I would change is the speculation is perceived in Westminster and John Smith house to be damaging. You can only fool some of the people etc.
#17 by Stuart MacLennan on November 8, 2012 - 5:06 pm
As a matter of law, Indy, no EU laws would cease to apply by simply virtue of any state leaving, by whatever means.
EU laws are laws of Scotland, which happen not to be made in Scotland. In a similar vain, companies incorporated under the Companies Act wouldn’t dissolve simply by virtue of the fact that the Companies Act is an act of the UK Parliament; money laundering would still be an offence despite the Proceeds of Crime Act being Acts of Westminster. And indeed, a goodly amount of the body of law in Ireland pre-dates Irish Independence.
The question of citizenship is unclear, as though the Maastricht Treaty creates “EU Citizenship”, it is contingent upon being a citizen of a Member State. It is not clear whether EU Citizenship stands independently of citizenship properly so-called. Customary international law suggests not, but the ECJ has been known to flaunt the principles of international law before.
It is also worth bearing in mind that every Scot alive today would continue to be a British Citizen, in the same way that people born in the Irish Free State are still British Subjects – unless they renounce their citizenship. Scots living in other EU nations would continue to have a right of residence, therefore, because they would continue to be citizens of the United Kingdom, as well as citizens of Scotland.
I also don’t see how you’ve reached the conclusion that the “unionist side” would argue for border guards, when their fundamental cause is to avoid a divide between Scotland and England!
Furthermore, if the EU is so concerned about Member States leaving – why did they introduce a withdrawal procedure in the Treaty of Lisbon?!
#18 by Indy on November 9, 2012 - 12:50 pm
That is kind of what I thought. Kicking Scotland out the EU is – practically – pretty much impossible.
#19 by Alasdair Stirling on November 8, 2012 - 5:50 pm
A rather biased point of view that conveniently chooses to ignore some very pertinent facts, opinions and judgments.
1. “Irish independence did not result in any change in status for the United Kingdom, despite being merged by a similar Act of Union in 1800”
The United Kingdom is the product of two treaties of union. First: Scotland and England in 1707. Second: Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland remained intact as a legal entity because only a portion (the 26 counties) of one the contracting parties (Ireland) left the union state. Unless Westminster intends to partition Scotland, independence will result in the whole of the territory of the historic Kingdom of Scotland recovering its sovereignty. As such Scottish independence fundamentally alters the legal personality of one of the contracting parties to the 1801 Irish union. Accordingly, dissolution of the 1707 Union leaves two successor states (Scotland and England) with most likely England (as the larger successor state) inheriting the rights and obligations of the Irish union (although it is possible that the Irish could elect to remain in Union with the Scots).
2. “One cannot, therefore, rely upon EU citizenship rights as somehow creating or continuing EU membership”
The European treaties provide that the status of E.U. citizenship is afforded to “every person holding the nationality of a member state” albeit that “citizenship of the union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship.” In the case of Ruiz Zambrano, the Court of Justice of the European Union said that national measures cannot deprive E.U. citizens of the “genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights conferred by virtue of their status as citizens of the union.”
#20 by Allan on November 8, 2012 - 7:19 pm
Good post. However the problem with it is exactly the same as the SNP’s stance (and for that matter Better Together’s position) on the subject which is the assumption that the majority of Scots would be happy to rejoin/stay in the EU. At the very least, there should be a debate about whether I-Scotland should join/stay in the EU.
There is noticiably a critical mass brewing in the UK as a whole regarding continuing participation in the EU, yet this seems to have passed Scottish politicians by. What has particularaly passed Independence obsessives by is that it’s not just… ah, how did a comentator on the Burd describe them… swivel eyed little Englanders (like Bill Cash, Theresa Gormley, Peter Bone and other Tory Eurosceptics) expressing these views, but people like Will Straw and Owen Jones who think we need to debate our continued membership.
The SNP’s insistance that I-Scotland can retain it’s position in the EU is just not a democratic position.
#21 by Stuart MacLennan on November 8, 2012 - 7:34 pm
First of all, Alasdair, your assumption of bias presumes you know my opinion on independence. For the record, I’m an undecided voter tending towards “yes”.
As to your first point you’re actually incorrect. The whole of Ireland left the United Kingdom, and then the six counties in the north re-joined the Union. The comparison between Scotland and Ireland is therefore a correct one.
Secondly, it’s something of a logical leap to read an independent status into EU citizenship from the judgement in Zambrano v. ONEm. The decision confirmed what most already suspected, which is that EU citizenship rights trump domestic law, even where those rights are only affected indirectly. It did not confer any citizenship rights on Mr Zambrano, nor did it separate EU citizenship rights from domestic citizenship rights – except, perhaps, to create a ranking of rights.
#22 by Alasdair Stirling on November 9, 2012 - 9:30 pm
Stuart,
Sorry if I assumed a bias. As regards the status of the six counties the Govt of Ireland Act 1920 remained in force unless or until both Houses of Parliameny in NI passed a resolution to join the Free State. The relevant clause of the treaty is below:
“11. Until the expiration of one month from the passing of the Act of Parliament for the ratification of this instrument, the powers of the Parliament and the Government of the Irish Free State shall not be exercisable as respects Northern Ireland, and the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act 1920, shall, so far as they relate to Northern Ireland remain of full force and effect, and no election shall be held for the return of members to serve in the Parliament of the Irish Free State for constituencies in Northern Ireland, unless a resolution is passed by both Houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland in favour of the holding of such elections before the end of the said month.”
As regards the “logical leap” – it’s not mine. It’s Aidan O’Neil’s: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/10/31/dealing-with-secession-in-europe/scotland-can-secede-and-still-be-part-of-the-european-union
Although I tend to agree that the judgement is by no means conclusive.
#23 by Grahamski on November 9, 2012 - 8:00 am
Interesting article on the legal technicalities of how, in the unlikely event of a vote for separation, a separate Scotland could join the EU.
The truth of the matter is that the decision on how and on what terms a separate Scotland will be allowed to join the EU will be taken by the current member states of the EU.
Those member states will take that decision based on their own national interest and the interests of the EU as a whole rather than arcane legal points.
And that’s it really: rather than concentrating on legal minutiae we should look at the current EU member states and see what they believe to be in their own state’s best interests and take it from there…