Okay, I do. But not because it’ll directly determine whether an independent Scotland would be in NATO. Changing policy would be a bad sign on that front, admittedly, but then so too is existing Tory, Labour and Lib Dem support for Nato.
In the event of a Yes vote, the Yoonyonisht Consphirashy will presumably not pack up their bags for Westminster and leave Scotland in the SNP’s hands. They’d stay to fight the elections to an independent Holyrood, and they may well win, just as Churchill won the war but Attlee won the peace.
The problem, as SNP MSP Marco Biagi rightly points out today, is that there’s a “false narrative that voting Yes means endorsing only the SNP vision of an independent Scotland.” Of course it doesn’t: if it did, I’d run a mile. I have a decent amount of common ground with them on health, justice, and even equalities, but I don’t want to live in a tartan tax haven built on burning all our oil and emptying the North Sea of fish as quickly as possible.
Marco’s fighting for an SNP that sticks to its guns (sorry) because they’re his party and that’s the policy he still believes in, not because he believes that decision can possibly be set for an independent Scotland by Alex Salmond before the Scottish people elect MSPs the next time.
It’s part of a wider problem, one that Jeff addressed here last month. Winning a referendum on the principle that those living in Scotland should make all the key political decisions is one thing: I think a cross-party and non-party campaign can do that. Winning a post-independence election on what to do with the full powers of a normal independent state: the SNP machine has form at general elections.
However, wherever a non-SNP voter who’s open to independence (remember: it can’t be won without them) accepts Marco’s “false narrative”, they are more likely to vote No depending on their attitudes to the SNP leadership and SNP policies. The referendum cannot be won without at least a clear division between the two things: assuming the party don’t accept Jeff’s logic above.
The First Minister should stand up and state clearly during the debate that the SNP won’t determine whether an independent Scotland stays in NATO: the Scottish people would do in the first post-referendum election. It’d be a brave move, and it’d reduce the importance of a debate is being billed as, to quote Marco again, “a leadership defeat or a U-turn“. More broadly, every time an SNP politician is asked a question that presumes they’ll win that post-indy election they have an opportunity to explain that the Scottish people will be sovereign, not the SNP.
Putting the distance between the wider Yes campaign and the party which delivered the referendum can reduce the risk to the Yes campaign of losing the support of some of those people who’ve long wanted to leave this nuclear alliance. The same goes for the monarchy, the currency, the BBC, and tax rates: those are arguments I hope the SNP lose in an independent Scotland, or positions they change their mind on, but we need to get there first, and that means narrative clarity about what’s being offered.
#1 by Nikostratos on October 18, 2012 - 7:03 pm
A vote for the Yes campaign is a vote for Alex salmond and his snp and ‘IF’ the seperationists won that is exactly how they would portray the result.
Any other minor supporters/dupes having fulfilled their propaganda function would be pushed to the sidelines and quietly ignored.
and as for
those living in Scotland should make all the key political decisions
You ave obviously forgot?? about the E.U.
#2 by Alasdair Frew-Bell on October 18, 2012 - 8:23 pm
Nato is a relic of cold war politics. It is currently being used by hawks, Madame Clinton, to justify possible intervention in the Eastern Med. and God forbid, Iran. It ought to be quite clear to the pro-Natoist group that obligations to tow the club line go with membership. Nuclear is what Nato does. Calling Scotland/Alba a nuke free zone and then going out to play with the boys with the toys is bizarre. Biagi is right this policy inconsistency will bring scant rewards and much grinding of teeth. Matters like this are for a democratically elected parliament in an independent Scottish state. As you say the same goes for head of state, currency etc. Some people need to take a cold shower while in Inbhirnis.
#3 by Iain Menzies on October 18, 2012 - 11:42 pm
“Calling Scotland/Alba a nuke free zone and then going out to play with the boys with the toys is bizarre”
so we shouldnt have relations with the USA, France, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and the rest of the UK?
#4 by Alasdair Frew-Bell on October 19, 2012 - 1:55 pm
Paragons of virtue all! to be kept at the end of a very long spoon. These weapons of mass extinction have no place in our country, period.
#5 by Alex Grant on October 18, 2012 - 9:52 pm
The point of changing policy on NATO is because it makes sense and even if you disagreed with that the evidence is 70% of Scots do agree. So to to present a cogent Defence strategy including NATO will help win the YES vote.
If that is won are you seriously suggesting any other party would enter the 2016
election proposing exit from NATO?
And as to a vote for YES being a vote for AS and a one party state that is utter crap. In 2016 a whole new election bunfight with newly constituted parties is what you get! Unfortunately there are plenty of half wits who believe the Mugabe slur. That can be avoided by consulting on then enacting a written constitution as part of the YES campaign, not after!
#6 by Richard on October 19, 2012 - 2:46 am
Who cares? Well the No campaign for a start. They’re constantly looking for a stick to beat the SNP with. Or rather Alex Salmond; because they’re determined to frame this debate that the Yes campaign is purely an AS ego-machine.
We have a wide range of parties and groups now involved (Greens, SSP, LabForInd etc.) and these really need to start making their voices heard. This “false narrative that voting Yes means endorsing only the SNP vision of an independent Scotland.” is a fox that needs to be well and truly shot, starting now.
It is also something that SNP supporters should embrace. The spending limits issue springs to mind here; as the SNP will likely have more than they’re allowed to spend, I don’t see it as either immoral or illegal that individual SNP supporters could give financial assistance to other parties (Greens/SSP/SDA) in order to increase the overall kitty available.
#7 by Stuart Winton on October 19, 2012 - 8:54 am
James – and ignoring the NATO argument per se – surely the problem is that the voters who have to be persuaded to vote Yes are the ones who won’t be motivated by independence per se (unlike the hardcore 30%) and to that extent Salmond, the SNP and the wider Yes campaign have to construct some kind of policy narrative regarding what an independent Scotland would look like, irrespective of whether or not such policies could or would actually be implemented.
Of course, the disparate politics of Yes Scotland would always make constructing such a narrative difficult and, as the NATO argument demonstrates, even bringing the SNP itself to any kind of sellable position (as regards the Dinnae Kens) is fraught with difficulties.
Thus Salmond can’t really just stand up and say that it’ll all effectively be decided after Scotland votes for independence because that would just make it all look too uncertain for the middle ground.
To that extent he’s stuck between a rock and a hard place. Try to please the waverers with concrete policies and he alienates others and exacerbates the, um, disparate (to put it nicely!!) nature of the Yes movement.
By the way, was glad to see your recent Tweets regarding the context of your pipe-smoking dog avatar. Had assumed it was just a bit of fun, but on the other hand whenever I saw it I couldn’t help thinking of those photos of the smoking beagles 40 years or so ago!!
#8 by Alasdair Frew-Bell on October 19, 2012 - 6:45 pm
The old turkeys have voted for Christmas…….Oh say cant you see by the dawns early light, the nukes on there way to blast us to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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