Are you Green or are you a Nat? It’s not at all clear if you can have it both ways any more. Indeed, even if you’re a climate change denying, windfarm hating petrol head, the numbers surrounding independence do look a bit shaky. And hat-tip to Tom Gordon’s excellent take down of Salmond’s clever ‘relative surplus’ language, given it loosened up my own thoughts on the matter.
The Scottish Government’s GERS report is the go-to source for reliable information about Scotland’s finances. The number of Nats who cite it in their arguments is evidence enough that it’s legitimate. For Greens who want Scotland to go it alone however, it doesn’t make for happy reading. Principles and aspirations will clash crudely over the question of oil.
Let’s start with a basic fact – if we burn existing oil reserves over the next few decades the effects on climate change would be catastrophic. We should stop drilling, well, now. The world should ideally come together, allocate existing oil reserves appropriately and get cracking with creating green energy on a global basis. Optimistic? Yes, if past global warming summits are anything to go by, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t remain as Plan A. We’re burying tomorrow’s future to avoid facing up to today’s inconvenient truth, and Scotland looks set to be at the forefront of that unpardonable folly if the SNP gets its way.
The basis of Scottish independence rests heavily on profiting from the black stuff under the North Sea over the next few decades so let’s look at the figures (taken from GERS):
With oil:
Scotland’s Income – £53.1bn
Scotland’s Current Spending – £63.8bn
Defence savings (after independence) – ~£2bn
Revised Spending – £61.8bn
Annual Deficit in an independent Scotland – £8.7bn
Scotland’s geographical share of oil revenues is £7.9bn which, if removed from the equation, would push our annual deficit out to £16.6bn in a single year. Probably higher through jobs lost, reduced investment etc being taken into consideration.
Our current share of the UK’s debt is estimated to be about £81bn, and keeping in mind that the UK Government has ~£60bn locked into RBS and Lloyds (the latter largely due to HBOS’ failings), an independent Scotland’s finances would be starting off in dangerously deep red territory.
‘That’s the way of the world’ many will say but, well, is it really? Proponents of independence talk about other countries who are able to make it on their own with similar population sizes to Scotland, so let’s look at some of them and what their levels of debt are:
UK – $1,592bn (~63% of GDP) (GDP ~$2,522bn) (excludes RBS/Lloyds intervention)
Scotland – $131bn (~61% of GDP) (GDP ~$215bn)
UK deficit – $201bn
Ireland – $228bn (~103% of GDP) (GDP ~ $221bn) (Deficit -$17bn)
Belgium – $484bn (~94% of GDP) (GDP ~ $515bn) (Deficit -$20bn)
Sweden – $191bn (~35% of GDP) (GDP ~ $545bn) (Deficit -$6.5bn)
Norway – $267bn (~55% of GDP) (GDP ~ $485bn) (Surplus $39.5bn)
Denmark – $141bn (~42% of GDP) (GDP ~ $332bn) (Deficit -$8bn)
Portugal – $264bn (~111% of GDP) (GDP ~ $237bn) (Deficit -$6bn)
Finland – $125bn (~48% of GDP) (GDP ~ $263bn) (Deficit -$5bn)
Czech Rep – $89bn (~41% of GDP) (GDP ~ $215bn) (Deficit -$8bn)
Slovakia – $42bn (44% of GDP) (GDP ~ $96bn) (Deficit -$2bn)
Slovenia – $20bn (40% of GDP) (GDP ~ $50bn) (Deficit -$0bn)
Latvia – $12bn (43% of GDP) (GDP ~ $28bn) (Deficit -$0.5bn)
Estonia – $1.6bn (7% of GDP) (GDP ~ $22bn) (Deficit -$0bn)
Debt balances – source: The Economist
GDP balances – source: IMF
Scottish GDP – source: Wikipedia
Deficits/Surpluses – Source: Wikipedia
(NB: I’m no economist, and finding a single, reliable source of the above information proved incredibly difficult. If there’s errors in the above, so be it, but the numbers are intended to be indicative and to form my own view of Scotland’s position in the world post-independence)
There seems to be two sets of European countries out there of similar size to Scotland – the southern states with small debt levels and small GDPs, and the Northern/Scandinavian states with higher debt levels but higher GDPs with which they can service these debts. Yes Scotland is looking to start a new country with high debt levels and a relatively low GDP. That would be a challenge and deserves considedrable scrutiny between now and 2014. I’m not saying it’s not insurmountable, but it puts Scotland in a more difficult place than most of our similar-sized European neighbours.
We have similar debt to Finland but they have a higher GDP (by $50bn) and smaller deficits. We have the same GDP as the Czech Republic but they have debt only two thirds the size of ours.
You could only say we are doing better than Ireland, Belgium and Portugal in the above list, three countries that don’t exactly have their economic problems to seek.
Further to this, and most worrying of all, is that Scotland would have to burn its green credentials just to go backwards slowly, rather than going backwards quickly. An annual deficit of about £9bn (assuming we do keep drilling) on top of a current debt of £81bn does not bode well for Scotland’s economic health.
I had always thought that polls would only show movement from No to Don’t Know or Don’t Know to Yes, but having finally looked through the figures, I can feel the resolve for my own would-be Yes vote draining away.
Now, the big argument the other way is that it is the UK that has driven us to this parlous state, an argument that I have a lot of sympathy with and a point that makes me disappointed and not a little bit angry with recent Westminster Governments. Scotland could chart a different path for itself more successfully than it could as a part of the United Kingdom, but Yes Scotland cannot pretend that it’s a clean slate. We would be starting from further back than any of us would have liked.
So, the ball is certainly in the SNP’s court to explain how a new country could swallow these figures and move on into financial health, and hot air around relative surpluses or green energy revolutions is not going to cut it. How would Scotland cut its debt levels and what is the business plan to get through the first 5, 10 and 20 years? Nothing short of that will suffice I’m afraid.
I have always believed that Scotland stands a better chance of making independence a success from a position of strength rather than weakness. These figures do nothing to change that view, quite the opposite in fact.
Too wee? Not necessarily.
Too poor? Right now…..? Yes.
#1 by mav on October 18, 2012 - 8:45 am
ah Jeff. Welcome to the real world.
The truth is, its a long hard road back from our current economic woes, whether we are Scottish, British, live in Europe or USA. The wound inflicted by economic experiments of the early 20th century are going to take time to heal. The new countries didn’t have time to build those debts up, the Scandivians turned their noses up at such schemes.
What your arguments essentially come down to is, the SNP, like Labour in the UK, have to show how they’ll turn deficit to surplus and pay back the debt in a way that is less painful than the coalition. Its not an easy electoral path to tread, denial is much easier.
#2 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 9:39 am
Thanks Mav,
I still hold plenty of reasons to vote Yes but my sojourn into being pro-Indy may well end up being ‘there and back again’ as I’ve not seen evidence that Yes Scotland ‘gets it’.
Your last paragraph sums it up perfectly for me. That’s Salmond’s challenge. He might gamble that only an insignificant few understand the numbers and rhetoric can carry the day but, as I’ve said before, I think the FM knows this is the wrong time to win a Yes victory. The stars haven’t aligned.
#3 by Dominic Hinde on October 18, 2012 - 8:58 am
Well put Jeff. This is one of the reasons why devo max would be good as it would give us the levers to move toward independence instead of jumping off a cliff into the mist.
#4 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 9:46 am
Thanks Dom. I’ve always liked the idea of Devo Max across the UK: Yorkshire, Cornwall, Scotland etc all being discernible regions with significant autonomy, not unlike the federalised nature of Germany. Whether a stepping stone to independence or not, it does seem to represent a more controlled progress.
Just a shame that no one party has really stepped forward to own it, though Ming Campbell’s proposals sound appealing.
#5 by Alasdair Frew-Bell on October 18, 2012 - 11:32 am
I have yet to encounter anybody from an English region remotely interested in devolution. Cornwall has pretensions with the marginal Mebyon Kernow but that is about it. Its now too late for federalism. The balance is all wrong, both in terms of wealth, influence and population. A sovereign Scottish state might be the catalyst to provoke a devo reaction among the English regions but I wouldn’t hold my breath. We are much better out of the union. I see some pretty nasty trends developing south of the border, the neo-nationalist UKIP being one of them. Rich or poor we got to go!
#6 by Alex Buchan on October 18, 2012 - 2:11 pm
If you think the economics are aerie fairy the politics of a Federal Britain are even more aerie fairy. Wales, even, really mainly got the devolution settlement it got because Westminster was concerned not to make Scotland too much of a special case and it looked as Even Wales was going to reject devolution, that’s how narrow the electoral support was. English regions will never happen. Everyone in Westminster is aware of this, which is why the Scottish question is such a headache because the last thing they want is an English Parliament. Scotland only gets when Scotland demands. Because the SNP have played their hand poorly, even the SNP’s landslide majority will produce very little in terms of change if the referendum is lost, and especially if it is lost by a wide margin. In fact I’d bet such an outcome will lead to calls for repatriation of powers to Westminster, and certainly the end of Barnett.
#7 by Alexander Belic on October 18, 2012 - 9:21 am
I’m meant to be packing for conference so I’m not going to be able to comb through the figures, but if I remember correctly the £63bn figure is not necessarily money spent IN Scotland but also money spent ON BEHALF of Scotland.
So as well as the £2bn you’ve already eliminated for trident, you could also remove nearly the same again that Scotland is paying towards the financing of the UK’s debt interest (assuming that Scotland will inheirit a per-capita share of the national debt rather than the per-tax-take share its currently paying for).
There’s also our contributions toward reserved or “UK” spending that we’d probably stop contributing towards, the High speed rail network in England, the governance of overseas territories, the world service etc, I’m not sure if the cost of providing a postal service to Edinburgh of the Seven Seas et al runs up into the billions, but it is certainly an expense we’d no longer have to account for.
On the other hand a country starting out will probably be at the zenith of its borrowing as it builds the apparatus of statehood, so the first IndyScottish Government might want to keep borrowing what they’ve “saved” to invest in infrastructre the new country might benefit from.
If for talking sake they decide to put some money into building a large container port somewhere like Scapa Flow to a) handle Scottish shipping exports instead of sending them all by lorry to Dover and b) provide a shortcut to trans-atlantic shipping then that could increase employment and GDP to help further reduce the deficit.
#8 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 9:57 am
Good challenges Father. I was hoping for a comment like this. I’m thinking it might be worth having a separate page on Better Nation that is a rolling view of what an independent’s Scotland’s finances are likely to look like as and when variables change or are successfully challenged, and when GERS updates of course.
My own assumption was that the £63bn figure is still correct because the share of what we pay currently would be what we would pay post-2014, but if there’s a ‘per capita share’ vs ‘per tax take share’ then an adjustment would be required. I’m not sure it’d be as much as £2bn but well worth looking into.
I’m with you on some of the UK spend that Scotland wouldn’t partake in after independence. Defence was the only one that sprang to mind given it’s the obvious one but you make some fine suggestions (Crossrail could be added to High Speed rail, not sure though). Estimates must exist or be calculable for each of these. Again, how significant these are remain to be seen.
As a side note, it’s interesting that no one has yet wanted to face up to the reality that Scotland needs to burn its green credentials to make all of this happen.
#9 by Angus McLellan on October 18, 2012 - 4:52 pm
The methodology used in GERS to allocate UK govt expenditure is explained in the report. See http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0038/00389326.pdf and especially table C.1. Population share is used for about 95% of the £9 bn unidentified expenditure in 2010-2011.
But the Scotland of GERS is Scotland-in-the-Union. Using GERS to make predictions about an independent Scotland, and particularly about an independent Scotland at the point of creation, is misleading. Expenditure on defence and international services in an independent Scotland, had 2010-11 been Year Zero, would not have been the £4 bn which GERS shows. It wouldn’t be zero either – some defence costs are inherited, minimal defence and international services are pretty much essential – but it would start very, very low and needn’t rise very quickly either.
#10 by Thomas Widmann on October 18, 2012 - 9:28 am
I don’t doubt for a second that an independent Scotland will find itself in a difficult position in 2014 — but so will most of the western world!
Of course it would have nicer to have achieved independence in 1980, but we can’t change the past.
What we have to remember is that the UK won’t be a safe, prosperous haven in 2014. If you have a look at this graph, what kind of place will Scotland turn into when most of the cuts are enacted by the UK government? At least an independent Scotland can change the tax system to enable socially fairer solution.
#11 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 10:10 am
The Western World is indeed in a difficult spot but my figures seem to suggest that Scotland will be amongst those facing the stiffest challenges.
It’s a false comparison to say we have a choice between Osborne’s cuts and independence. An independent Scotland would have to make just as many cuts as George is embarking on. Indeed, Swinney should get the cuts rolling over the next couple of years, though he may hold them back to lull Scots into voting Yes. That remains to be seen.
I do agree that changing the tax system would be a good idea and do also agree that Scotland is more likely to do so than the UK. However, look at the pasting the Greens got for raising taxes last year and the lack of appetite to touch existing (albeit paltry) tax powers at Holyrood. I think I’d want a pretty firm commitment from the SNP or Labour that they’d raise taxes after independence before I’d be comfortable voting Yes, not that I’m ruling out an uncomfortable Yes vote.
#12 by James on October 18, 2012 - 1:04 pm
Remember Swinney’s already cutting harder and faster than any other part of the UK, through the Council Tax freeze. Continually baffles me that SNP activists with any pretension to leftishness back that evisceration of local services and local democracy.
#13 by Commenter on October 18, 2012 - 6:51 pm
“already cutting harder and faster than any other part of the UK”
OK, so if this is the case, it must mean that at the end of the year he’s going to have some money left over from the block grant… right?
#14 by Iain Menzies on October 18, 2012 - 9:03 pm
I see what you did there! you quoted James out of context…the context being the rest of his first sentence…
Concil tax freeze=frozen cash terms income for councils.
Inflation = real terms cuts in council income.
Result….cuts in council sevices.
So no there wont be block grant left over because he is spending it all on lots of freebies for middle class people that dont need it rather than diverting more money to council to cover the increasing cost of the freeze.
James might be a raving lefty that believes in manbearpig…but hes right on this one. Especially since the Uk government isnt really cutting all that much.
#15 by Commenter on October 19, 2012 - 12:08 am
I see what you mean, but in practice how much are English council tax bills actually increasing? Isn’t there some sort of non-universal freeze happening there along Scottish lines? I know people are awfully keen to paint the SNP as dread neoliberals in socialist sheep’s clothing, but using the council tax freeze as evidence is perhaps a stretch.
This article, which is perhaps out of date, talks about rises of a few quid.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17215873
#16 by FormerChampagneSocialist on October 18, 2012 - 9:37 am
I hardly know where to start with this. I could write a very long rebuttal but I do have a job so i’ll keep it short and sweet:-
1. If Scotland is too poor, then how come the relatively poorer UK manages to continue to function as an independent country? We are in better financial nick than the rest of the UK. This is undisputed even by the No people, who instead refuse to address the relative positions of Scotland and the remaining UK and prefer to focus on the national debt. Speaking of which…..
2. Yes, it is true that the UK has an unacceptably large national debt and, worse, a current account deficit. Whose fault is that? Successive fiscally incontinent UK governments, mainly Labour governments, spending money like it was going out of fashion. Scots will be forced to repay this London-incurred debt through a mixture of tax rises and spending cuts regardless of whether we are independent or not. At least an independent Scotland would get to choose what to cut.
3. Yes, we would have to sell oil to balance the books. Same as your beloved Norway. Taking this approach, the world’s richest countries (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Norway, you get the point) would overnight become the poorest. Presumably Green principles also eschew the extraction of other natural resources? Oops, there go Australia, Canada, Russia, Brazil etc., all reduced to penury!
FCS
#17 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 10:31 am
1 – The challenge is for Yes Scotland to convince Scots that a small country (that may or may not be in the EU) facing significant financial difficulties is better than a large country (that is in the EU) facing similar challenges. Why is being small better than being big?
2 – Assigning blame to the position we are in just now does nothing for what is required by an independent Scotland to get out of the mess. An independent Scotland would choose what to cut, good point, but it would also have start up costs that might prove expensive at precisely the wrong time. Those extra costs on top of the inevitable cuts need to be quantified and put on public record as a form of independence cash flow/business plan to be absorbed and accepted by the electorate, surely.
3 – I’m just pointing out the reality of the situation. I’m sure the UK would burn as much oil as an independent Scotland would, but let’s all of us at least be open and up front about what’s going on and what’s at stake. The SNP isn’t shy to talk up its green credentials. At least I know Cameron is talking mince when he does the same, it’d be a shame to see Salmond et al go down the same path. Former Environment Minister Ed Miliband, incidentally, may ‘get it’ more than the SNP does. That’s something to think about from a green perspective with a UK General Election on the horizon.
#18 by FormerChampagneSocialist on October 18, 2012 - 11:35 am
1. I didn’t say that is was, only that Scotland is currently relatively better off than the rest of the UK. Do you accept that?
2. It’s not a matter of blame, it’s a matter of fact. Successive UK governments have run up the national debt and it is perfectly legitimate to point out that this debt is a Westminster creation.
3. We just disagree here. I’m happy for an independent Scotland to sell oil. I admit we’d be poor if we were to de-industrialise Scotland in line with the Green agenda.
FCS
#19 by Doug Daniel on October 18, 2012 - 10:02 am
The fact that Scotland’s current financial position under the union isn’t as good as those of countries around us of a similar size is nothing new, and it’s certainly not a reason to remain in the union – it’s the main argument for voting for independence! I know Tom Gordon thinks he’s stumbled upon the death blow to independence, but all he’s doing is highlighting how bad the current UK situation is and how it’s dragging Scotland down with it.
The “relative surplus” stuff is simply a handy way of illustrating that Scotland is not a nation of subsidy junkies – and if it is, then the UK’s habit is far more severe (and to take the metaphor further, the first step on the road to rehab is to remove yourself from fellow addicts!) It’s certainly more instructive to the debate than simply stating big numbers while omitting to mention that they’re completely in line with what other countries – and specifically the UK as a whole – are doing. A prime example of this is Ruth Davidson’s “revelations” about the size of the public sector in Scotland, which sounded big, but was actually less than the UK as a whole and totally in keeping with other countries…
In the end, it all comes down to who you think is more likely to put 100% of their focus on making Scotland a better country – a government in Edinburgh for whom Scotland represents 100% of their electorate, or a government in London for whom it represents less than 9% of the electorate (considerably less than even just London, never mind the whole of the south-east). Personally, I simply can’t envisage Scotland electing a government that could do a worse job than the Tories are currently doing.
(And if the Scottish Government’s climate change credentials are not as good as they like to think, they are at least far better than the current Westminster government – and I suspect this, along with the fact the Greens actually have a chance of making an impact in Holyrood, is why non-nationalists like Patrick Harvie prefer independence to the status quo.)
#20 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 10:21 am
Good points Doug, and maybe I’m being too harsh on Salmond’s usage of ‘relative surplus’. I still think he’s cannily trying to suggest Scotland pays more to the UK than it gets back, which is of course flat out wrong.
For me though, the elephant in the room is London. The potential for profit and tax revenues from the UK’s financial centre should not be under-estimated and the UK could quickly move through the European economic pecking order as a result. I know he’s a pantomime villain for many, particularly in Scotland, but I do think Osborne gets it and will drive down the UK’s deficit in good time and good order, using London to maximum advantage.
An independent Scotland wouldn’t boast the same trump card and if we jump ship too early, we could quite easily see rUK reach safe shores while we’re still all at sea. North Sea oil, irrespective of its impact on the environment, doesn’t measure up as a safety jacket going by (1) the numbers already outlined and (2) the volatility in the oil sector now and in future years.
#21 by Doug Daniel on October 18, 2012 - 10:45 am
The volatility of oil prices is often brought up, but it’s a complete red herring I reckon. Oil prices may fluctuate in the short-term, but in the long-term they’re only going one way – up! And I’d say it’s a far more bankable asset than the financial sector, for one very simple reason – it’s stuck there. We’re always told by neo-liberals that we mustn’t scare bankers in case they flit the country – well, try extracting North Sea oil from Hong Kong or Bangkok!
For me, it’s not about jumping the ship too early, it’s about making sure we don’t jump ship too late. Just think how Scotland could have been transformed if we’d been independent over the past 30 years, with access to 100% of the our oil money and being able to spend it on improving our transport networks, focussing on impoverished parts of our cities and improving public health, instead of seeing it spent on London’s transport system, follies like the Millennium Dome and bankrolling the Tories’ 80s policies, which saw unemployment soar.
The longer we wait, the worse position we’ll be in when we do eventually become independent (which is exactly why unionists spent the whole of the last parliament telling us we needed to wait for some unspecified moment in time to ask the question). We should do it while we still have a choice.
#22 by James on October 18, 2012 - 1:06 pm
Oil prices are going up, and the price of using it is increasingly clear too. I’d rather be poor than try to survive an increasingly uninhabitable planet.
#23 by Chris on October 18, 2012 - 10:36 am
Relative Surplus is completely disingenuous. I thought he meant that with the oil money we would be in surplus.
Also remember that these deficits are with the start of Osborne’s cuts. I thought Independence was supposed to protect us from Tory Cuts and build a social democratic Scotland? And create a sovereign wealth fund by running surpluses?
#24 by Alasdair Stirling on October 18, 2012 - 10:37 am
Jeff,
Two points spring to mind. First: What you are saying is that Scotland is in deficit and funded by borrowing before independence and will remain so after independence. The question therefore is: whether independent Scotland can sustain this level of deficit spending in the first 10 or so years after independence whilst restructuring its economy.
Second: Given that such structural deficits are unsustainable over the longer term, Scotland faces the same problem within or without the Union. That is, we either have to reduce our spending or increase our income. The question therefore is: which political arrangement will best reduce or spending or increase our income.
Courtesy of Johann Lamont, we already know Scottish Labour’s preferred solution to the problem of Scotland’s structural deficit.
#25 by Chris on October 18, 2012 - 11:09 am
By increasing income you mean, increasing taxes. Like ‘relative surplus’ these circumlocutions are getting tiresome.
Actually Johann’s point was that we either had to increase taxes or prioritise the poorest by removing universal benefits from those who can afford to pay – not facing up to her question won’t make it go away. If independent we would also have the option to increase the deficit. If part of the UK we would have the option to vote for parties who would increase the deficit or increase taxes.
I am quite happy to increase taxes and nationalise North Sea Oil, but I think I am in a minority.
#26 by FormerChampagneSocialist on October 18, 2012 - 11:24 am
Two seldom-made points worth chucking in here:-
1. The No campaign correctly point out that an independent Scotland would be an entirely new country. Legal responsibility to repay the UK national debt would remain with the UK. Scotland has a clean slate unless it voluntarily accepts a share of the debt. HUGE bargaining chip.
2. The argument around the volatility of oil is garbage. You can fix all or part of the price for as long as you want to by commodity hedging using derivatives and other financial instruments.
FCS
#27 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 11:46 am
1. As much as I believe in fair play, I’m a bigger believer in bargaining chips. Your argument strikes a chord with me, but I don’t know how the rest of Scotland would feel about putting a gun to the rest of the UK’s head to carve out a better deal for Scotland. I don’t think it would go down too well as Scots probably would like to think they should help clear up their own mess.
2. Fair enough. I confess I know nothing about oil futures. I may have over-reached.
#28 by FormerChampagneSocialist on October 18, 2012 - 12:15 pm
But are we cleaning up our own mess, or is it someone else’s mess? I’d say the latter.
Realistically we need to take on part of the debt to show the international community that we are finncially credible and mature. But it’s a negotiation, and it needs to be more widely recognised that the debt and the deficit are a Westminster creation.
FCS
#29 by JohnMcdonaldish on October 18, 2012 - 2:34 pm
The point, for me, is simple. This union thing hasn’t worked for nation rich in both human and natural resources. The degree to which we are in debt is down to the current management and taking control of our resources can only lead to a better result for the people of Scotland.
Clearly there are some who feel the present construct is all we can hope for. Well, I hope for more.
#30 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 3:40 pm
I see your ‘grass is greener on the other side’ and raise you a devil’s advocate ‘better the devil you know’.
Put another way, asking a majority of Scots to cross their fingers and “hope” (your word, not mine) for the best is a big ask. Realistically, a financial plan and route map to get out of debt is required to convince Scots to vote Yes. Does Yes Scotland have the gumption to create one? We’ll see.
#31 by FormerChampagneSocialist on October 18, 2012 - 3:58 pm
Jeff
How can yes Scotland do that? Depends completely on the agreed split of assets and liabilities, and that not going to be known pre-vote.
If Yes estimate those, No side will just say ‘the UK won’t agree to that’ and rubbish the figures on that basis.
FCS
#32 by Johnmcdonaldish on October 18, 2012 - 5:54 pm
If you choose to portray my comment in such a way as you have that’s entirely a matter for you.
But I think most will understand the point I’m making.
You may choose your neo-liberal devil; I’ll go with the nation of talent and resources.
#33 by gavin on October 18, 2012 - 4:51 pm
OK, picture the scene. After a NO vote and the UK has to find massive savings on public expenditure.
Either a Labour or Tory majority at Westminster.
Where do you start cutting, that wouldnt be too unpopular with the chattering classes who form public opinion in Middle England?
With good old subsidised to the hilt, featherbedded, Barnett stuffed Scotland, thats where.
Every political journalist, every economic pundit, every editor will back such a campaign to the hilt.
Look us in the eye, Jeff, and tell us it wouldnt be so. The referendum is where we burn our boats, if we dont vote YES, then prepare for the worst you can think of.
#34 by Angus McLellan on October 18, 2012 - 5:03 pm
Jeff, this entire edifice seems to be built on GIGO rather than LEGO. Your estimate of debt/GDP is out by 10%. Even the OBR expect better. There’s nothing wrong with the GDP number (£140 bn at 2010 exchange rates is about $215 bn).
The David Hume Society calculated Scotland’s GDP, debt and debt/GDP earlier this year (in their paper “Scotland’s Share of UK Public Debt”). The numbers they came up with for Q4 2011/Q1 2012 – which is more recent and should, therefore, be worse as debt is still rising fast – were £159 bn for GDP, £83 bn for public sector net debt and a 52% debt/GDP ratio.
“Jings! If we’d been independent (with very our own nuclear deterrent) we’d have been poor and broke, just like Finland!”
Doesn’t really work, does it?
#35 by Angus McLellan on October 19, 2012 - 12:05 am
A little bit of digging has revealed that the difference between the figures Jeff quotes and the DHI ones – and indeed most other ones you’ll find in the UK, except for TPA-inspired scare stories – are down to the debt number being measured in two different ways.
DHI used Public Sector Net Debt. The Economist (and Jeff) used the Maastricht Treaty definition, GGGD. According to the Treasury – http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/55%281%29.pdf – the main differences are that GGGD “excludes the net debt position of public corporations” and “does not net off liquid assets”. GGGD in recent years has been around 10% higher than PSND for the UK.
The Treasury tell us that PSND and GGGD can be reconciled, so we (well, when I say we I mean you, as in include me out) could calculate the notional Scottish GGGD. Liquid assets we can split 11:1 which just leaves public corporations. We’d first have to identify Scottish and not-Scottish public corporations (Calmac and Scottish Water are easy, but the rest?) and then allocate their debts as appropriate. The ONS do publish supplementary data for GGGD, but it isn’t detailed enough to be helpful: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-229711
There’s no problem so complicated that, if you just spend enough time thinking about it in the right way, you can’t make it even more complicated.
#36 by KBW on October 18, 2012 - 5:16 pm
I wonder Jeff if you would be kind enough to tell me why you see fit to moderate me of your blog? is it because you do not want to hear what I have to say or is it some other reason?
Both your self and your colleague James have now censored me several times, it really does you no favours that you censor in this way whilst making dodgy claims about Scotland and claiming to want to hear the debate. The points I made to you both were perfectly valid, why not engage with the debate instead of cherry picking?
If you like you can e-mail me!
#37 by Jeff on October 18, 2012 - 10:53 pm
KBW, I generally find your tone acutely and needlessly abrasive. I’m not against robust criticism, but I have no inclination to be subjected to what I perceive to be unnecessary aggression. Further, your last comment was 1,600 words and my post was only 1,100 words. I don’t like people leaving reams and reams of words beneath my own posts and would suggest people write articles of such length on their own blog.
Going through the two trashed comments and one unmoderated one:
– calling Better Nation ‘North Korea’ is an instant delete
– calling commenters “drunk or drugged” is an easy trash
– 1600 words. Too long, see above. I sympathise with the amount of time writing that must have taken but our comments policy was created with good reason.
Bottom line – noone has a right to leave a comment on any website or blog, and basic courtesy is typically a minimum requirement. I hope you stay tuned but there’s not much I can do if you still think you’ve been hard done by.
I can’t see any other unmoderated or trashed comments, so I don’t really see what your problem is.
#38 by Robin Ross on October 18, 2012 - 11:02 pm
I trust that this is not too long a response, but it was so refreshing to read a thoughtful article which takes a serious look at the figures. It seems that economists can interpret these figures just as casuistically as theologians interpret scriptural texts, but what is striking here is that the article and responses to it offer constructive critiques and not tribal invective (in the main!). There is no easy answer to the financial realities whichever way the sums are computed, although independence will demand that we put our money where our mouth is.
The moral issue at the heart of the article focuses on the challenge to live up to the green rhetoric if self determination is to become a reality. Considering that the main function of our species has been to shift carbon from the lithosphere to the stratosphere, with disastrous results, the rebirth of our nation funded by a concentration on this activity should make us uneasy at the least.
Relying on oil extraction has the added effect of diminishing the efforts needed to support Scotland’s alternative energy activities. There is a lot going on in wave and tidal energy development; there is genuine interest from international backers and the Scottish government recognises the value of this burgeoning industry. I am increasingly concerned that our Westminster government is the most serious threat to the Scottish renewables industry, and the recent news that new energy policy is to be concocted by David Cameron, george Osborne and Nick Clegg is deeply depressing.
In what other ways also, does our present constitutional set-up induce a stultifying mind-set which stifles imagination. It is doubtful that the earlier suggestion by Alexander Belic of a container port in Scapa Flow originated in London.
Thus, while the tenor of your article is pessimistic, I would rather face up to the challenge of solving Scottish economic problems with a Scottish government if at the same time it gave us full responsibility for all the other areas of our national (and therefore international) life.
#39 by Derick on October 18, 2012 - 11:46 pm
Business as Usual (UK) or Business as Usual with the Possibility of Change (Independence)? take your pick
Personally think that an intelligent decision as to how we use the oil to pump prime decarbonisation, and resilience in an almost certainly different climate now, is the first step
#40 by KBW on October 19, 2012 - 8:56 am
Dear Jeff,
I must confess to not having read your moderation policy as most blogs I comment on are not as sensitive as Better Nation, which is fine it is your blog. I have sporadically blogged for a few years, and have had very little reason to delete anyone except in the case of some recent downright abuse over the Independence march day.
However if you are going to perpetuate unionist lies and propaganda you must expect that you are going to raise the temperature of the responses you get, as we saw on QT last night and predicted by me. (Note I am not calling you a liar, I am saying you are perpetuating unionist lies, there is a difference.)
The original post I left was I confess long winded, the “South Feast,” part is cut and pasted from an article I put on my blog a few years back but it is even more relevant today.
http://tiny.cc/a30emw
In the interest of brevity and moderation I would like to submit the first part of my original post again in the hope that this time it will get past your moderation filters. I am sorry if you find my tone abrasive, However propaganda does affect me like that as the marks on my TV screen will attest to. Here goes with the original:
“Jeff you talk of Scotlands share of the UK debts, whilst ignoring Scotlands share of UK assets? Or is it your case that we only inherit debts but not assets? Tom Gordon has just recycled London lies. Those lies trotted out by Davidson at the Tory’s conference.
Your headline is an insult and dishonest. You have bought it line hook and sinker and it is false for this reason.
Scotland’s contribution to the UK by sending our revenues to London is around, £53 billion.
Of that we see only £46 billion coming directly back to pay for the things in Scotland we decide to have.
However what the NOs don’t want to talk about and go to great lengths to conceal as we shall see tonight on QT with it’s heavily loaded unionist panel is this:
£7 billion of our revenues plus a further £10 billion borrowed on our behalf is spend by London on our behalf, this is then all rolled up into the NOs figures to make their dishonest claims and you have bought it. £17 billion spent on our behalf, not in Scotland, over which we have zero influence and what is it spent on. See graphics:”
http://tiny.cc/82hdmw
http://tiny.cc/j0hdmw
I trust that will be in order it comes in at 445 words, well under your cut of,
Yours sincerely KBW.
#41 by Jeff on October 19, 2012 - 9:31 am
“if you are going to perpetuate unionist lies and propaganda”
You don’t make getting your comments through moderation easy, do you!
#42 by Jeff on October 19, 2012 - 9:41 am
And of course we’d take a share of the UK assets, that’s not ‘unionist apologism’ or whatever you’re calling it, it’s just not really that relevant to the points I’m making.
If someone has a huge credit card bill to pay off, what difference does it make if they own their own house? The reporting of the sovereign debt crisis didn’t comment much on what assets each European country has, and with good reason. It’s just not part of the equation unless we’re going to asset strip ourselves to
I agree that there’s a bargaining round to be had with the UK Government upon independence, but gambling Scotland’s future on a few rounds of political poker in the hope Cameron will hand over tens of billions of cold, hard cash is, once again, a tough sell to the Scottish public.
Note that my premise isn’t so much what’s right and what’s wrong, but rather what’s the most likely path to a 50.1%+ Yes vote.
#43 by Iain Menzies on October 19, 2012 - 11:11 am
This isnt a comment as such so feel free to delete it but for some reason i am having email difficulties just now….anyway.
On your last sentence. Certainly 50.1% is enough for either side to win….but ive seen in a number of places people saying that the unionist side has to get a clear victory (i would say 60-65% up) so as to properly settle the issue for a reasonable period of time. I would be interested in your thoughts (suggesting a blog post here) as to what level of result would be best for scotland in terms of a yes vote. By which i mean is 50.1% enough to allow scotland to leave the UK in a reasonably united manner socially and culturally.
Just a thought.
#44 by Jeff on October 19, 2012 - 11:21 am
And a great thought at that.
I think that’d make a great post (and we welcome guest posts remember), but a friend did say to me recently that he doesn’t want Scotland to be independent but he’s going to vote Yes because he doesn’t want a No landslide. I’ve been meaning to type something up on it but it kind of ties in with what you’re saying.
Will try to write something on it, but, as I say, guest posts always welcome…
#45 by Alex Buchan on October 19, 2012 - 1:43 pm
As I see it the issue really is more one of legitimacy. Any vote for independence over 50% means that Westminster’s legitimacy is shot, but that doesn’t mean that there won’t be questions raised in Scotland and in Westminster especially if there are parts of Scotland where the yes vote is very low. If the lowest support for independence was in Shetland for instance expect calls Shetland to have a special status of some sort. But basically the UK couldn’t continue if more than 50% voted yes. If less than 50% vote yes the situation is a little more complicated.
There is a common assumption based on polling that the level of support for independence hovers around 30%. Anything below 30% will be a decisive loss and will kill the issue for a generation. Anything above, though still a loss, wouldn’t kill off the issue long term. Nevertheless a vote for independence of between 30% and 40% could be ignored by Westminster and will certainly be hailed as a great victory by unionists.
Anything above 40% would still be hailed as a victory by unionists but would keep the issue alive and raise difficult questions, as much in England, as in Scotland. The English are not very happy with the current set up, either, and any vote for independence in Scotland of more than 40% wouldn’t bring the union together but would instead increase pressure for change all round. Cameron has already been preparing for this with talk of a constitutional convention after a no vote. But there are problems in this because many see an English Grand Committee as a slippery slope towards a fully-fledged English Parliament, but English Votes for English Laws is also difficult politically, but will probably be the way the politicians would want to go. Whatever is decided I would expect the campaign in England for an English Parliament to pick up and if it’s over 40% more powers would be on the way for Holyrood.
#46 by Nik on October 19, 2012 - 11:33 am
Jeff, you said ‘If someone has a huge credit card bill to pay off, what difference does it make if they own their own house?’
Um, a massive difference? They then have a tool with which to ease the burden of the credit card debt. They aren’t paying any money to a mortgage as they don’t have one, do they?
You’re quite wrong about the reporting of the debt crisis not mentioning what assets each country has, too. It’s been mentioned that Greece should sell some of its assets to cover its debt, for instance.
#47 by Jeff on October 19, 2012 - 11:43 am
Yes, I know assets have been occasionally mentioned for Greece, hence my saying that aspect hasn’t been mentioned “much”, as opposed to ‘not at all’.
I still find it a faintly desperate riposte to a more considerable problem. I don’t think one of the first priorities of a proud independent country should be asset stripping.
#48 by Nik on October 19, 2012 - 12:08 pm
Apologies, I missed the word ‘much’ in your ealier post.
So you think Scotland you just go deeper into the red (assuming it doesn’t tell Westminster that it can keep the debt).
You might like to read this, too: http://www.bondvigilantes.com/blog/2012/01/04/happy-hogmanay-would-an-independent-scotland-still-be-rated-aaa-and-might-the-rest-of-the-uk-get-downgraded-too/#comments
#49 by Jeff on October 19, 2012 - 12:33 pm
I think Scotland would go deeper into the red because that’s what the GERS figures seem to be suggesting. I’m trying to take any subjectivity out of it, so ‘think’ is probably the wrong word.
Of course, the UK is also going deeper into the red so a key question, and I don’t really have a view at this stage, is whether it’s better to be a big country with a big debt going deeper into the red or a small one.
Pointing to other small countries is insufficient as they seem to have low debt & low GDPs or high debt & high GDPs, unlike Scotland would.
I think not having the cash cow that is London would be a concern and would expect that Scotland would be less likely to keep AAA status, compared to rUK. But I’ll read your link as it sounds interesting. Thanks.
#50 by Calum on October 19, 2012 - 5:59 pm
It should also be remembered that the UK gets more back in spending than it raises in revenue – it’s called the deficit. The government is forced to borrow to make up the shortfall. So yes, whilst Scotland does get more back from the UK in real terms than it contributes in revenues, so does every other region of the UK. That doesn’t make the situation any better, but it should be observed that Scotland isn’t exceptional in this regard.
The best way to reduce the deficit is to grow the economy, something which arguably could be better achieved by independence. Arguably, mind, I don’t have any evidence for that.
Also, I think you have confused debt and deficit in your article. Deficit is the difference between revenue and spending, whilst debt is the amount borrowed the cover that shortfall. So while George Osborne hopes to eliminate the deficit, he admits he will increase the debt.
#51 by Calum on October 19, 2012 - 6:07 pm
Also, if you look at the past GERS reports, Scotland was in absolute (not relative) surplus for 2 of the last 5 years, whilst the UK has had a deficit for all 5 years. Again, not much, but a glimmer of hope.