Why did 80,000 people in the Olympic Park boo George Osborne? Because that’s all the stadium holds.
It’s a good joke, it swept through Twitter like wildfire and I chortled along, but I nonetheless felt embarrassed and a little bit ashamed of the oddly hollow booing and hissing from the stands at the Olympics (though George surely should have seen what was a coming a mile off). A little bit more ‘succeed together, fail together’ might go a long way in the UK right now and irrespective of what policies our Chancellor (for whatever party colours he wears he is still “our” Chancellor) takes, a little bit of respect for the office wouldn’t be out of place. Ed Miliband’s ‘predistribution’ says more than a chorus of boos, and I still don’t know what that word means.
So it was with a similarly sunken heart that I read the numerous catcalls surrounding George Osborne’s visit to Scotland and speech to CBI Scotland, very few of which tackled head on the points that the Chancellor chose to make on his trip North. The New Statesman has a faintly fawning rundown of these points in a fine article today including:
What Osborne did point out (and rightly so) is that if the SNP wants a monetary union with the rest of the UK (Salmond having abandoned his promise to take Scotland into the euro) it becomes much harder for it to argue for fiscal and political independence. The existence of monetary union without complementary fiscal union being the principal cause of the eurozone imbroglio.
Let’s be clear, rUK is not Germany and Scotland is not Greece. However, the SNP’s seemingly standard response to these regular points of crass ‘we’ll take no lessons…’ Tory-bashing is shabbily insufficient. A nation confident in itself does not rebuke others when challenged on their economic arrangements.
This is all unfortunate, as a cool-headed explanation of how things would work under independence should be straightforward. Monetary union without fiscal union across the UK is not necessarily a bad thing, despite many unionists seemingly believing they only have to mention the delinkage to win the argument. We are, after all, currently living the SNP’s future vision.
The Scottish economy’s fortunes are currently noticeably clearly intertwined with the rUK economy’s, making a mockery of the back-and-forth breast-beating between Governments over which is doing marginally better than the other (although, oddly, it is Scottish Labour that tends to do the coalition’s breast-beating for them).
You can think of this issue another way. Basically, if Scotland’s economy is expected to diverge so markedly from the rest of the United Kingdom’s, as Osborne and many other unionists seem to fear is going to happen, then surely separation is the only answer.
Of course, the reality is that Scotland and rUK’s economies are at low risk of being incompatible in the near, medium or even long term future. After all, what is Alex Salmond proposing – a low tax, fiscally conservative, light touch economy. It won’t be music to many Nats’ ears, but you’d struggle to fit too many Rizla papers between Osborne’s vision for the UK and the SNP’s apparent vision for Scotland.
So, the lesson for proponents of independence who think this fiscal/monetary union debate is a non-issue is this: you can’t boo Osborne and seek to run an economy seamlessly alongside his without looking like a little bit of an idiot.
#1 by Longshanker on September 7, 2012 - 1:00 pm
Good post Jeff.
Can’t disagree with your argument – for Scotland to be successful post-independence it will need to work closely with rUK and will need to make some sizable compromises to current modes of thought.
Indeed, to paraphrase the SNP’s Jim Mather, anyone who thinks an independent Scotland will be left leaning is deluded.
The everything up for grabs post independence is just as risible as well. Who apart from the out and out converted would be prepared to vote for that?
#2 by Tris on September 7, 2012 - 2:29 pm
That Tory government ministers have been boo’d in London, by people who want to watch paralympics is not surprising. That government is responsible for appalling policies towards the sick and disabled.
Osborne has told us time and time again that business will leave Scotland if it opts for independence; even not having the referendum this year in the wake of a union jack fest is damaging the Scottish economy, according to him.
Despite indications to the contrary, he still plays this tune on his fiddle.
Yes, we will have to work with London, Cardiff and Belfast, as much as with Oslo, Stockholm and Reykjavik and Copenhagen, and yes there will have to be compromises.
But it isn’t unreasonable for people in Scotland to dislike the London government and its policies, for which it very certainly did not vote. Nor does it surprise me that people with an interest in paralympians, would find the appearance of Tory ministers at the games, anything other than an insult to the disabled. It’s bad and bad enough what they are doing, but that they try to gain political advantage by being seen handing out medals at the games disgusts many people… me included.
#3 by Jeff on September 7, 2012 - 2:53 pm
What, specifically, are the “appalling policies” that you mention? Or are you just going along with the hype?
#4 by An Duine Gruamach on September 8, 2012 - 11:29 pm
How does selling off Remploy piece by piece to private firms and not requiring any safeguards on pensions or redundancy preventions/ limitations sound for a starter?
#5 by Cath on September 7, 2012 - 2:39 pm
“Of course, the reality is that Scotland and rUK’s economies are at low risk of being incompatible in the near, medium or even long term future. ”
I agree with near and possibly even mid-term. Long term, however, the two economies could well diverge. In fact, if England carries on shifting as far right as it is, seemingly following the US economic and social model, I would very much hope Scotland would not follow, but instead shift to a more Nordic model.
If this happens medium-long term, then we can re-assess our currency and whether a currency union with England works, or whether we’d be better joining some other currency union or going it alone. Short term, since there is no danger of major divergence, it makes sense to keep the current union – it’s what many newly independent countries do.
Of course, one other scenario is that Scotland moves in a different direction and England follows. I don’t think most English voters are particularly happy with the extremist neoliberal direction the UK is currently heading in either.
#6 by Craig Gallagher on September 7, 2012 - 3:05 pm
George Osborne was booed for having the nerve to appear at an event dedicated to disabled athletes while his policies impose a disproportionate burden upon such people across the country.
As for his CBI speech, you’re saying we can’t fundamentally disagree with Osborne because Scotland when it’s independent will have to co-exist with an rUK economy? You are taking aim at an enormous scarecrow here, Jeff. The SNP have been just about the only party in the independence debate saying that Scotland and England will be reasonable neighbours after the fact. Alex Salmond himself has said it multiple times. In contrast, we have the Unionist parties predicting an economic race to the bottom, the collapse of Scottish pensions, a relegation to the economic wilderness of Europe and the collapse of all the Scottish “benefits” once England’s “subsidies” are taken away.
Frankly, I reserve the right to call George Osborne an odious little toad and describe his economic policies as inspired by 19th century laissez-faire attitudes to work and welfare. That in no way diminishes my desire for Scotland to work with the government of England in the aftermath of independence. I would prefer it not to be a Tory government, but that isn’t up to me and I’d like to think any Scottish government would work with whoever they face across the economic negotiating table.
#7 by Jeff on September 7, 2012 - 3:24 pm
When it comes to George Osborne I find that people believe what they want to believe. It seems pretty clear from the Channel 4 Fact Check blog however that on this issue of disability allowance he is far from the bogeyman that everyone is making him out to be:
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cuts-to-disability-living-allowance/11411
And I’m not saying that people can’t disagree with Osborne, of course they can, I disagree with him for starters. What I am saying is two things:
(1) People shouldn’t disagree with Osborne when they don’t know why they disagree with him, only that they are meant to
(2) People shouldn’t exaggerate the differences between Scotland and Tory-run UK if they don’t want to run the risk of undermining the argument that an independent Scotland can enjoy monetary union with rUK without fiscal union.
You may have the right to call Osborne an ‘odious little toad’ (you’re sailing close to being moderated out though), but I have a right to suggest you look foolish for doing so if you don’t accompany it with intellectually rigorous reasons for doing so or if there is a disconnect between the chosen insult and the reasons provided.
#8 by Jeff on September 7, 2012 - 3:27 pm
Incidentally, it’s interesting that you mention ‘laissez-faire’ as it is precisely a laissez-faire attitude that Osborne has chosen to close down on disability allowance to prevent fraudulent claims. Sure, means testing to prove disability is inconvenient but if it saves money and stops incorrect claims then it doesn’t sound as bad as it is made out to be. Or do you just want this country to be a free for all?
#9 by Allan on September 8, 2012 - 1:02 am
Ah, but you could employ better “inspectors” than the Government contractors ATOS Origin have. The stories about disabled people being told that they are fit and able to work (when they are obviously not fit) are creating a climate of distrust in the government and undermining their credibility in this issue.
In any case, the bill for benefit fraud is much less than the bill for tax evasion from big business. Lets not forget that.
#10 by Indy on September 8, 2012 - 3:13 pm
The fact check confirms that under the Tories DLA cuts half a million people will lose their benefit because they will be found fit for work. And then what happens to them? They will just sail into a job I suppose?
It was always a stupid idea to set a target for the number of people that were to be found fit for work. But to do this at a time when it is so difficult for everyone to find work was madness.
Most of them are not going to get jobs, that’s the reality. They will be made to apply for them and attend interviews and go on training courses and all the rest of it and they will still not get a job which will just reinforce everything they feel bad about to begin with.
Put yourselves in their shoes and try and understand. It is more than George Osborne ever has.
#11 by Iain Menzies on September 7, 2012 - 3:34 pm
What you seem to be saying is that it would be best if our political discourse was polite, respectful and fact based.
It should.
But it isn’t and it wont be.
And all sides are to blame. The easiest way to judge which side of a political debate someone supports is to see who they think messes this up the most.
#12 by Jeff on September 7, 2012 - 3:37 pm
“All sides are to blame” is a horribly convenient way to keep going with bad habits. I prefer ‘be the change you want to see in the world’ 😉
#13 by Iain Menzies on September 7, 2012 - 3:55 pm
im not sure it is bad habits.
Look at THAT interview with paxo and chloe smith about what it was i cant remember. But all he seemed to want to know was when she knew what she was there to advocate.
In what possible way does it matter when she knew.
Its not just politicians, its the press, the boradcast media, its commenters on political blogs……occasionally its bloggers!
In ‘Debt of Honour’ (tom clancy) at the very end a &$& is crashed into the US Capitol killing all but the VP. You get six months of ‘new politics’ then its back to the old ways.
Id love our politics to be better than they are. i would also love to be able to believe that they will ever be.
The only thing i am sure of is that independence wont make it any better…..
#14 by Juteman on September 7, 2012 - 4:33 pm
Who said politics should be polite? Is that written down someplace?
It does the masters of the universe good when they meet ordinary folk.
Booing? Thatcher at the Scottish Cup final will take some beating.
#15 by longshanker on September 7, 2012 - 11:27 pm
” Or do you just want this country to be a free for all?”
I admire that you’re willing to state that disability claimants should be checked. In Glasgow, for example, roughly 70 per cent of long term disability claimants are suffering from mental health issues – predominantly depression.
Full time employment with a structured daily routine is often the best cure for these claimants ailments – and I’m not being flippant or Tory-like in the assertion – it’s been demonstrably proven.
Osborne and his Labour predecessors however have lost credibility with voters due to misplaced priorities.
Corporate tax avoiders/evaders such as Vodafone, Diageo and Amazon would reap far greater fiscal savings for the exchequer if they were ever brought to book.
But they fight back and can give governments embarrassingly public bloody noses.
Yes, the SNP have shown that they would probably be the same, but that’s why I would be just as willing to boo Alex Salmond as Gideon Osborne. There’s not a great deal of difference between the two when all’s said and done.
#16 by Jeff on September 8, 2012 - 8:57 am
Yep, spot on, tax chicanery from Amazon et al makes my blood boil and should be a higher priority, if not the highest. The gambling industry seems particularly guilty of offspring for tax reasons which, when you think who they make their money from, is particularly galling.
So yeah, good point.
#17 by Tris on September 8, 2012 - 12:17 am
No Jeff, I can differentiate between hype and what I see with my own eyes.
What they are doing on the benefit front in an effort to save money is unbelievable. I work in the field. I know what it is doing to people. I see the tears, the panics, the utter despair. I see people giving up because they are going to be so poor that they will have to chose between staying warm (as fuel prices go up again at twice the rate of inflation…and remembering that so many of them can’t get out of the house without help and so are there 24/7), and having food in the house.
So far I know personally of two people who have died since being told they were fit to work.
#18 by Allan on September 8, 2012 - 1:22 am
Sorry… but Osborne is not our chancellor. He has not, he did not and he will never work for the benefit of the vast majority of people in this country.
As for his grasp of ecomomics, well you don’t need to be Vince Cable or even myself to see that if you take billions of pounds out of the economy for “debt reduction purposes”, then you might as well say goodbye to any demand.
The problem with the credit crunch was a lack of a liquid economy. Yet neither Darling or Osborne seem to have grasped this, with Osborne making the problem dramatically worse by killing demand for “stuff”. In short, the man has shown no respect to the ordinary person on the street, so it’s hardly surprising that he has been boo’d.
For the rest of your post Jeff, i would say that it’s actually on the money. In particular your critique of the low tax, light touch regulation supporting First Minister critisising the… er… tax haven creating, light touch regulation supporting Chancellor.
#19 by Ben Achie on September 8, 2012 - 11:07 am
#14, Alex Salmond’s overwhelming concern is international competitiveness and getting to a more just and caring society. Scotland, although perhaps to a lesser extent than England, still has a long way to go with that. Economic performance must come first.
A social-democratic Scotland that is economically fit will also be socially healthy. Forty years ago Scotland and Norway had similar levels of GDP per head, and what drives him is making up all the ground we have lost since then.
The better performance of the Scottish economy compared with rUK is because we have had a more positive narrative and actions from the Scottish government compared with Westminster, which increases optimism and creates more confidence in the future.
This is simply basic economic competence, which while seeking to generate more efficiency from public spending generally, prioritises capital investment. Osborne is incompetent across a whole spectrum – just look at his latest U-turn on North Sea oil taxation.
#20 by Indy on September 8, 2012 - 2:59 pm
I was having a chat the other day with a friend of mine. He is separated from his partner but they still have a good relationship which is just as well as they have 3 kids who stay with him most weekends and sometimes on a week night too. Like many others though he has received a letter from his housing association saying that under the new rules being brought in by the Tories he will be underoccupying his house and his HB will be cut. The reason? As a single person he should only have a one bedroomed flat. When he queried this with his housing association they said we are really sorry but under these new rules the Tories are going to bring in it doesn’t matter that you have your kids to stay with you 2 or 3 nights a week. They say that doesn’t count. Your HB will be cut and you will have to pay the extra from your meagre wage.
I tell this just as one little anecdote which sums up why it is right to hate the Tories. Because seemingly this issue has actually been raised at Westminster and they refused to take it into account. So every separated dad (or mum) is going to be in the same boat. They are going to be punished financially for being separated. I guess that is one way to promote marriage! But not a very good one I suggest.
It’s an absurd policy because the vast majority of housing stock is 2 or 3 bedroomed. What are people meant to do? Knock down part of their house? It’s a policy to save money of course but one based on their total ignorance of life as it is lived by normal folk. They really do make me sick because they don’t even care about the consequences of their policies when the downsides are pointed out to them.
#21 by An Duine Gruamach on September 8, 2012 - 11:39 pm
I didn’t realise that an independent Scotland’s economic policies will be determined by the current policies of the SNP. Who knows? Maybe Labour would win the first election to an an independent Scots Parliament, remember that they’re supposed to be Socialists and raise taxes and regulate accordingly.
Independence isn’t about a particular policy, set of policies or ideological positioning. It’s about taking policy decisions for ourselves.
#22 by Robert Blake on September 10, 2012 - 2:33 am
Type your comment here
Are you denying that the treatment of the current Coalition is worse than even the previous Labour Government?
Are you unaware that DLA, a living allowance to help sick and disabled, both in and out of work is being cut at a rate 40 times that required to combat fraudulent claims (0.5% rate of fraud, 20% cuts demanded)
Has it escaped your attention that sick and disabled are being denied benefit because of a deniable quota system (assessors are given expected norms [with no statistical basis for the numbers] and any who go over are punished?
That the assessment is not a medical and bears no relationship to the conditions of the claimant, that the BMA has condemned it, that only 10% of the financial penalties due to Atos (a subsidiary of Unum, condemned in the US for operating disability deniability factories) are imposed, these have made the news. how are you unaware of this?
The UK Paralympians hid their sponsorship details when collecting medals, to deny Atos (who sponsored the Paralympics) the publicity. You didn’t hear that either?
Did the news that most who DO get benefit are put on the Working Group, which is time limited to one year for no reason other than Osborne demanded it fail to reach you?
You MUST have heard that people in that working group, who can be dying of cancer, are being called up for unpaid work same as those in JSA
While Labour *as a party* (individual MPs differ) are still broadly supportive of the policies above, the Coalition has gone further than them. That you dismiss this as “hype” shows either a massive ignorance or a massive callousness.
Mind you, the SNP have condemned this, including in votes in Holyrood.
#23 by Robert Blake on September 10, 2012 - 2:48 am
Type your comment here
I see from your later comments that you are ignorant of what has been happening for the last couple of decades in the field of disability and sickness benefits.
1) Incapacity Benefit, the old benefit introduced by the Tories for long term sick and disabled had a Fraud rate of 0.3%
2) DLA the Benefit to help people lead normal lives, had a fraud rate of 0.5%
In BOTH cases each required medical evidence and assessment before being granted. NEITHER was granted on the say-so of the claimant
ESA replaces IB AND SSP, the payment made to people who were temporarily off work through illness and injury. Take info from the Tories about appeal rates and getting back to work with a pinch of salt as they include the temporary old SSP claims.
Of those who appeal, without representation or a presence at the tribunal, the success rate is 40%
WITH representation and a presence at that tribunal that appeal rate is 80%+ One AB reported 95% success rate.
Atos, the private firm involved is not penalised
Now. I have been present at two assessments. They were done by *nurses*, not doctors. Under the old system a Doctor was used.
The report produced bore no relation to the conduct of the interview. The nurse spent all their time at the screen, not on the claimant
As the Harrington report found, both Atos and the DWP are able to shift the blame onto others for refusals. Atos say “DWP make the decision”, DWP say “Well, they are medically trained” so they both get to salve their consciences for treating their fellow human being abominably. Appeals usually find that medical evidence submitted by GPs and Specialists are ignored,
That people drop out of the appeal process I am not surprised by. It takes a lot of effort to assemble evidence. Doctors charge for letters, lawyers cost money and Legal Aid might not be available. Soon it will not be. These tribunals will be exempt from legal aid
That you are supporting the actions of Osborne, Freud, Byrne, Duncan Smith, Millar, Field and others of both parties plus the private firms colluding in this and are turning a blind eye and a deaf ear is staggering.
I await with bated breath your justification, your “evidence” that these worthies are correct, and the people who go around, spitefully dying before their appeals, are just trying it on
#24 by Gavin Hamilton on September 10, 2012 - 9:56 am
Good post.
Pretty much spot on in much of what you are saying Jeff in my opinion.
For me, this is part of reason (the intertwining of our economies) that I think ‘why go independent?’ We (Eng and Wales & Scotland) are part and parcel of each other.
Why separate it all out? Why not have a say in the UK – we’re an integral part after all and that’s not essentially changing – so why not have a vote!
It is for me a key reason why I think, and have always thought that a meaningful level of devolution within the UK is the right and the natural political settlement for us.
Independence is barking up the wrong tree.
#25 by James McLaren on September 10, 2012 - 10:10 am
Allan,
George Osborne has been criticised for being a semi-detached Chancellor; setting the line (dogma?), and letting the policy works at The Treasury implement hsi will.
I think of him more a Bungalow Chancellor.