Another guest article from Alasdair Stirling, to follow up a very well received Referendum Round-up from earlier in the month. Aasdair describes himself as cynical of politicians and believes that we should reject all authority which we cannot justify by reason, but believes that politics that delivers the greatest happiness for the greatest numbers can be virtuous.
With at least some of the post-Olympics opinion polls lending support to the Unionist contention that TeamGB successes have ushered forth a celebration of Britishness that is turning Scots heads away from independence, it is worthwhile considering how devolution may develop if the Scots do vote NO in 2014. Whether Donald Dewar ever referred to devolution as “a process not an event” is neither here nor there. The concept is what is important, and whoever said it (it was in fact Ron Davies the Welsh Secretary) was bang on the money. Devolution did not start in 1997 and (absent a YES vote) is unlikely to have reached a conclusion with the Scotland Act 2012.
From a faltering and short lived mid nineteenth century campaign (Devine 2006) the impetus for specifically Scottish political institutions, and local control thereof, developed and progressed throughout the remainder of the century. Although never matching the tempo or intensity of Irish demands for Home Rule, this gradual but growing pressure saw a dedicated education department empowered to conduct school inspections in 1872 (O’Connor & Robertson 2000) and resulted in the reappointment of a Scottish Secretary in 1885. These were tentative steps down the ‘devolution highway’ and further progress came only slowly. It was not until 1928 that the Scottish Board of Health (created 1919), Board of Agriculture for Scotland (created 1911) and the Prison Commissioners for Scotland (created 1877) were abolished as semi-independent bodies and re-established as departments of the Scottish Office (HMSO 1928). Westminster tidied up these ‘devolved’ responsibilities by amalgamating prisons, agriculture and fisheries to form a Scottish Home Department in 1939 (HMSO 1939). This reorganization also saw the Scottish Office opening its resplendent new offices in St Andrew’s House and, more importantly, gaining dedicated civil service support.
These developments created, in effect, the apparatus of a ‘pocket’ government for Scotland, complete with is own ‘pocket’ Prime Minister (the Scottish Secretary), a ‘pocket’ executive (the Scottish Office Ministers and Departments) and ‘pocket’ secretariat (the Scottish section of the Home Civil Service). However, they were not the whole sum and substance of the devolution’s progress: Westminster itself was also in on the act. Starting with a Scottish standing committee established in 1909, Scottish MPs progressively came to dominate the consideration and legislative process of exclusively Scottish Bills. This arrangement developed as the century wore on, eventually becoming the grandly titled the Scottish Grand Committee (Scotland Office 2000). Whilst never entirely excluding English, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs, this ‘pocket’ parliament nevertheless represented a significant further devolution of power by ensuring that Scottish MPs had a disproportionate influence over legislation affecting only Scottish voters.
With the wounds of 1979 still fresh in the memory, many a Nationalist has branded David Cameron’s much reported claim that he is open to ‘considering what further powers could be devolved’ after a NO vote (STV 2012) as ‘jam tomorrow’ and most likely just another example of Unionist perfidy. So is his position just a worthless promise, easily broken once a NO vote lances the independence boil, or can the Scots take him at face value? To its credit, Westminster has a substantial and honourable record when it comes to devolving power to Scotland. Scottish Labour likes to claim the devolution mantle, but in truth all of the major Westminster parties have embraced the devolution process over its long history and may take some of the credit for having the constitutional flexibility and political will to develop a form of government that is to some extent responsive to Scotland’s particular needs. So to answer the question: Scots voters can and should take David Cameron at his word when he says that a NO result in the referendum would not be ‘the end of the road’ for devolution (STV 2012).
However, nobody should read more into it than that. What is important is what is not being said. To date, no Unionist party nor any high ranking Unionist politician has made any specific undertaking on what further powers might be devolved to a post referendum Scotland or (perhaps more importantly) when any further devolution might take place. Much is made of the need for clarity in the vote, of lack of consensus on what further powers might be devolved and of the complexity of crafting a proposal that voters might readily understand. Without doubting the difficulty of these issues; ‘where there is a will there is a way’.
There are many constitutional models already operating successfully throughout the world that might serve to inform a debate on the shape of further devolution. No doubt Quebec’s arrangements with Ottawa or the Australian state’s relationship with Canberra are a worthwhile study. However, the constraints of European Union membership, mean that the templates that would most likely to be relevant to enhanced devolution in Scotland would come from within Europe itself. This need not be a limitation, there exists is a rich diversity of arrangements: the autonomous regions of Spain, the German lander and closer to home the Isle of Man and Channel Islands readily spring to mind as useful starting points.
The plain fact is that it is not beyond the best Unionist brains to act quickly and outline a comprehensible template for Devo-Max that could form the basis of second or Devo-Max question. So why this reluctance to explore the possible future of devolution? It is far from a vow of silence. That Unionism has set its face against a second question is actually most eloquent, and speaks volumes as to Unionist intentions for Scotland’s constitutional future. What they are saying: the Unionist promise, in effect, is that in the event of a NO vote the the process of devolution will continue along much the same lines and at much the same pace as it has over the last 127 years.
Perhaps it is cynical, but it is hard to avoid the conclusion that Westminster really only embraces devolution when it is confronting a serious Nationalist threat. Was it by chance that it allowed semi-independent bodies for prisons, health and agriculture in Scotland and re-appointed a Scottish Secretary just as the Irish campaign for Home Rule gained strength? Did the creation of the Scottish Office in 1928 have anything to do with Britain having fought and lost a bloody war against Irish Nationalists? Is it fair to suggest that devolution stalled during the period from 1940 to 1970 because there was no real threat from Irish or Scottish Nationalists? Can we attribute the Scotland Act 1978 to fear born of Scotland’s oil fuelled enthusiasm for the SNP? Did George Robertson reveal Westminster’s true intentions in the mid-1990s when he said that ‘devolution will kill nationalism stone dead’? Would Kenneth Calman ever have chaired his commission had Scottish Labour won the election in 2007?
It doesn’t take the wisdom of Solomon to answer these questions, nor is a crystal ball really necessary to foresee Scotland’s constitutional prospects in the event of 2014 NO vote. Although no longer leader, it is hard to believe that Gordon Brown’s recent speech – all but ruling out a move toward fiscal autonomy (Telegraph 2012) – is far from Scottish Labour’s view of, and preferred approach to further devolution. At the other end of the political spectrum, David Cameron has already warmed over the ‘Real Devolution’ theme, beloved by the Tories in the 1990’s, in an attempt to recast future devolution in the context of local councils rather than further powers for the Scottish government (Independent 2012).
Such views are more than idle speculation, they are the genesis of Unionism’s post referendum policy and represent the likely boundaries to Scotland’s future constitutional development. In practical terms they mean that, free from the fear of Nationalism, Westminster will most likely restrict future devolution to piecemeal powers devolved from the periphery of their current reserved responsibilities (e.g. international development, the civil service or broadcasting). Moreover, with only seven major events (appointment of the Scottish Secretary, formation of the Scottish Office, creation of a dedicated secretariat, the evolution of the Scottish Grand Committee and the 1978, 1998 and 2012 Scotland Acts) throughout Scottish devolution’s 127 year history, it is arithmetically unlikely that Westminster will be minded to pass another Scotland Act much before 2030.
#1 by Colin on August 28, 2012 - 3:01 pm
A very useful history lesson on the reality of why devolution has been delivered. Particularly useful for Scottish Labour types who seem to think their party has driven this agenda – the truth is that it has always been reactionary to nationalist threat… as Alisdair has detailed above. A fine second guest post.
#2 by gavin on August 28, 2012 - 3:07 pm
Cannot fault any of this. I think the Britnats are circling the waggons, to keep Scots tightly in and the EU out. This is nationalism at its narrowest, but it will be difficult to overcome. The narrative developed at the Olympics ( though largely nonsensical, in that it proclaims as a virtue the accumulating of UK treasure and facilities in London ) will be trumpeted by the Media all the way to the referendum vote.
#3 by MJL on August 28, 2012 - 3:13 pm
The major flaw in this analysis is that it’s premise that “Westminster only devolves power under some nationalist threat” doesn’t stand up. The creation of Holyrood was the biggest transfer of powers and it occurred at a time when Labour had never been stronger, there was no nationalist threat.
2014 is not about devolution, it is about independence, if there is a NO vote 2016 will most definitely be about the devolution settlement.
#4 by Alasdair Stirling on August 28, 2012 - 3:44 pm
The Scotland Act 1998 really only repatriated the existing Scottish Office devolution to Edinburgh. In terms of power devolved, it didn’t much increase the amount or scope of responsibilities in the hands of Scottish representatives. It’s real significance was that henceforth a Conservative government that didn’t have sufficient Scottish representation would not be able ‘override’ devolution by appointing English, Welsh or Northern Irish MP to the Scottish Office posts or as members of the Scottish Grand Committee (as John Major had to do in 1992). Of course, Labour assumed that they would always be the majority party in Scotland.
#5 by Andrew Smith on August 28, 2012 - 4:52 pm
I have trouble with this for the same reason as MJL. What would have been the threat to Labour if they hadn’t devolved power in 1997? I think in any analysis you would have to accept that there has always been an enthusiastic demand for devolution in the post 1992 Labour Party. Donald Dewer. Henry Mcleish and others enthusiastically backed the creation of the parliament, so did the Lib Dems.
It was always said that devolution is a process, are you suggesting that the Labour led Scottish Executive would never have wanted more powers? not even at the level of Calman? In fairness, for all their flaws in office the Labour led executives were prepared to do things differently from Westminster on a number of high profile issues (smoking, free health care for elderly, scrapping tuition fees etc) and surely the logical conclusion of your analysis is that none of these things would have happened.
#6 by Alasdair Stirling on August 28, 2012 - 5:22 pm
I fully accept that many in the Labour Party were enthusiastic supporters of devolution (as were members of many other parties) and they deserve their fair share of credit for that support. My point was that the 1998 Act repatriated rather than extended the existing arrangements. Given Labour’s 1997 mandate (particularly in Scotland) they could, and arguably should, have used the 1998 Act to extend scope of the devolution and granted the Scottish Parliament powers beyond those exercised by the Scottish Office. As regards, the Labour led executives, the fact that there was some measure of policy divergence between Scotland and the UK generally simply mirrored the policy and practice of the Scottish Office prior to devolution. Yes the Smoking ban was an important step in the Scottish Parliament carving out its own legislative character, but no more important than the work of the Scottish Office with the Children’s Panel in the late 1960’s.
#7 by Iain Menzies on August 28, 2012 - 5:36 pm
But devolved what other powers?
Basically the whole of scoial policy (bar welfare payments) is devolved.
Other than welfare and tax pretty much the only stuff of substance that isnt devolved is external relations.
What possible reason would there have been for devolving more stuff in ’97?
#8 by Alasdair Stirling on August 28, 2012 - 6:01 pm
One of the major constraints with devolution is that it is very dated. The Scotland Act 1998 really just repatriated the powers devolved to the Scotland Office in the late 1920’s. The world has changed greatly since that time – not least with the introduction of the welfare state in the 1940’s and as a result of the decline of heavy industry. The package powers at the disposal of the Scottish Parliament are barely fit for purpose because they are delineated by political rather than practical boundaries. There is little point in controlling health and education if you do not also control welfare because the problems confronting Scotland are multifaceted and their tentacles reach into policy areas well beyond the genesis of the original problem. It is ironic, but following the logic of this argument, devolution is the worst of all worlds. Scotland should either control all of the policy levers (Independence or Devo-Max) or none of the them (control from Westminster).
#9 by Iain Menzies on August 28, 2012 - 6:16 pm
Even if i was to accept that idea that devolution was dated (which i dont) why is that a thing, never mind a good or a bad thing. I mean democracy aint no spring chicken, nor is the notion of a scottish nation come to that.
I have to say that your position is crushingly depressing. You seem to saying that because Holyrood doesnt have ALL the power then there isnt any point in trying to sort out anything cos it cant.
Its not only a depressing notion its also simply wrong.
If for example the SG wanted to make standard grades and highers tougher (which they should) they dont need control over welfare to do that.
Also i would say that there are real practical boundries on welfare for example. There is alot to be said for a system that doesnt encourage every english benefit claiment making their way north to claim potentially higher payments. you want to make the case for welfare being devolved its not a question of power but of regional rates or payment, which isnt something that i see anyone calling for.
There certainly didnt seem to be anyone calling for it in 97 (and the SNP dont count since calling for the dissolution of the union aint the same thing) so again what powers should have been devolved that werent?
Also what do you mean by scotland? for it seems to me that the logic of your case doesnt leave much of a place for local government.
#10 by Alasdair Stirling on August 30, 2012 - 11:59 pm
I have no doubt that the Scottish Government could (and perhaps should) address exam standards; however if that is the extent of the Scottish Parliament’s remit you kind of make my point. If we are to have any hope of solving Scotland’s social and economic problems, then whoever sets about the task will need access to the full range of political powers.
Of course, the cynic in me would say to you that devolution (whether the Scottish Office pre-1999 or the Scottish Parliament thereafter) is a political construct designed to serve political ends and not designed to get to grips with the problems that Scotland faces.
#11 by Doug Daniel on August 29, 2012 - 2:54 am
Devolution is indeed the worst of all worlds. If it truly is a process, then it must have a start point and an end point. Until we reach that end point, we’re effectively in a state of flux, and the longer we’re in that state of flux, the worse we are. If the end point is not full independence, then what is it?
This is the question we need to be asking ourselves, because Scotland currently exists as a sort of half-country – not quite a nation, but not a mere region either, yet seeking the benefits of both and the responsibilities of neither – and 2014 is our chance to decide what we want once and for all. Are we a country, or aren’t we? If we are, then we should assume all the responsibilities of one. If we’re not, then why do we think we deserve special treatment from the rest of the UK, and is it not time we fully integrated once and for all? If we think we can (and should) continue in a perpetual state of devolution, then we’re kidding ourselves.
(Which is basically what I argued on Bella recently! http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/08/06/its-time-for-scotland-to-grow-up/)
#12 by GMcM on August 29, 2012 - 3:03 pm
It depends on your defintion of ‘an end’. A process is a series of steps to achieve an end. If you believe that end is a certain political arrangement then you also believe that it is a linear process.
I on the other hand believe the end is not a political structure or a maximum number of powers but rather a series of steps that provide the fairest settlement democratically at any given time for people in Scotland, and the UK. I therefore look at it as a non-linear process.
The process is about delivering for the people of Scotland and delivering the fairest society we can at that time – that is it’s end. It is not about walking down a particular path until you reach a destination (in terms of numbers of powers held by Holyrood).
For me it is not about where power lies within the devolution settlement but rather that it lies where it can be best utilised. It is this definition of Devolution that many nats fail to grasp as all roads lead to separation.
#13 by Doug Daniel on August 30, 2012 - 4:02 pm
Well, even if we take it as being a process to achieve a specific outcome (delivering a fairer Scottish society), devolution has thus fair failed to do this since we still have massive inequalities between the richest and poorest, and areas of Scotland with utterly disgraceful levels of poverty (although it’s stopped it getting LESS fair, thanks to protecting our health and education services from privatisation).
So at what point do those who profess to be primarily concerned with social equality reassess their unflinching support for the union and the painfully-slow devolving of powers, and come to the realisation that putting the union above all else is preventing us from getting on with taking the powers we need to truly tackle Scotland’s big social problems?
The most vulnerable in our society don’t have time to wait for politicians to sit around for some arbitrary length of time, pondering how the miniscule transfer of powers in the Scotland Act has fared before thinking “hmmm, maybe we could devolve a tiny aspect of the welfare system…”
#14 by Doug Daniel on August 29, 2012 - 2:06 am
Labour didn’t scrap tuition fees – they just shoved them at the end and called them a “graduate endowment fee”, and even that only happened because the Lib Dems had to convince people that they’d gotten something out of the coalition.
When the SNP decided to scrap the graduate endowment fee, Labour voted against it. But then they were always going to do so – it was them who introduced them in the first place, after all.
#15 by Indy on August 29, 2012 - 10:21 am
It was people like Scottish Labour Action who fought for devolution – it was not the UK Labour Party. The UK Labour Party per se had no particular interest in devolution. They were persuaded of it by internal pressure from small n nationalists within Labour a big part of their acceptance was the idea that devolution would kill nationalism. Obviously that hasn’t quite worked out.
That tension between small n nationalists in the Labour Party and ideological unionists has become more and more taut. It may even snap, who knows? We see what people like Henry McLeish really think once they are off the leash.
#16 by jzw on August 28, 2012 - 10:35 pm
Great, interesting article. But this seems to ignore the creation of the Scottish Parliament. I don’t know anything about the Scottish Grand Committee, but I find it hard to believe that its members would have been granted the same amount of parliamentary time that the Scottish Parliament has over a year. Surely by creating a Scottish Parliament, the Scottish-focused legislative activity, deliberation, and responsiveness (to the public) has increased substantially and fundamentally changed the character of governance in Scotland.
And this is without considering the symbolic and practical effect of having the parliament located in Edinburgh, not London. What goes on in Westminster seems far less relevant to me than what goes on in Edinburgh, and I think a large part of that is because we now have a full-time and complete legislature+executive. Even if their devolved powers were already in the hands of Scotland-specific committees/offices before 1999.
#17 by Alasdair Stirling on August 30, 2012 - 11:51 pm
I covered the creation of the Scottish Parliament in the seven events of devolution by referencing to the 1998 Scotland Act. The point I am making is that the remits of the Scottish Grand Committee and the Scottish Parliament are substantially the same.
You make a good point about the time available for the consideration of the legislation. Moreover (unlike the Scottish Grand Committee) a Conservative government in London cannot ‘pack’ the Scottish Parliament with English, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs as John Major did in 1992.
These are important developments to the devolution settlement, but Labour could have used its 1997 mandate to substantially redefine the package of devolved powers in a manner that allowed the Scottish Parliament to tackle the root causes of the Social and Economic problems that Scotland faces.
#18 by Nikostratos on August 28, 2012 - 6:29 pm
Well best you win a ‘yes’ To separation then eh I mean thats what the snp have promised to ask the Scottish peoples for the last 75 years.
Must be a bit mixed up but if the snp lose the Referendum thats about the end of it then well for them that is.
obviously its always open to the Scottish Parliament to negotiate for more or less powers without any jiggery pokery with a ballot.
#19 by Doug Daniel on August 29, 2012 - 2:43 am
I think you’re right on the money here, Alasdair. It’s simply not plausible for people to suggest (as they sometimes do) that the Calman Commission would have been set up even if the SNP hadn’t won in 2007. It was such a blatant attempt at undermining the SNP that I find it incredible anyone should try to argue otherwise.
“What they are saying: the Unionist promise, in effect, is that in the event of a NO vote the the process of devolution will continue along much the same lines and at much the same pace as it has over the last 127 years. “
Devolution is a politician’s process, and the refusal to allow a “devo max” option or to even outline what “further devolution” these parties would seek so we can decide for ourselves if they match our desires is simply more evidence of this fact. We are not supposed to ask for powers when we want them; we are supposed to be grateful when they are given to us at a time of the political class’ choosing.
There is an appetite for a mass devolving of powers to Holyrood. People increasingly see the Scottish Government as their primary government, and as such I think they would like to see substantial powers handed over to them. Calman fell far short of these desires, and the subsequent Scotland Bill was even more impotent. I think part of the reason people are so keen for some sort of further devolution option is because they saw what a damp squib the Scotland Act was and want to move things along faster. We can’t wait for politicians to decide Scotland is grown up enough to look after its own finances, because despite the noises about “jam tomorrow”, it’s clear from other comments by certain politicians that any further devolution would not come until the current Scotland Act “powers” have been bedded in and a period of time taken to reflect on how best to proceed. So as you say, that’s coming on to 2030 until the next pathetic round of devolution happens – “jam tomorrow” becomes “jam next decade at best”.
Hopefully, part of this debate will force people to recognise just what a long and overly-protracted process devolution is. If we vote “NO”, I’ll be in my mid/late 40s by the time Scotland gets more powers devolved, and even then it will come up short of what people want NOW, in 2012. I can’t be bothered waiting that long, and just think how much damage the neo-liberal consensus parties in Westminster will have done to Scottish public services by then, purely by squeezing the block grant to the point that tuition fees and privatisations in health become unavoidable, as well as the continued degradation of our welfare and pensions. That’s before discussing the likely Barnett “reforms” that Tory backbenchers will attempt to force through once we’ve thrown our independence trump card away.
#20 by Alasdair Stirling on August 29, 2012 - 8:45 am
In an earlier draft of this note I looked at Westminster’s reaction to the SNP demands in regard to Corporation Tax, enhanced borrowing powers and the Crown Estates Commission vis-à-vis page 3 of the SNP’s 2011 Manifesto.
‘With the support of Scots in this election we will press for improvements to the current Scotland Bill to bring greater financial responsibility to the Scottish Parliament. This will include responsibility for Corporation Tax and Excise Duty, enhanced borrowing powers and responsibility for the Crown Estate Commission.’
It is clear that the SNP engaged with Westminster over these matters with the authority of a mandate from the Scottish voters. To be fair, Westminster did engage with the issues and delivered to a very limited extent on two of the three issues. There are implications here for any second or Devo-Max question and vote. Experience teaches that Westminster will ‘water down’ any second or Devo-Max question that does not exactly specify the nature and extent of the powers that Scotland wants devolved.
#21 by EphemeralDeception on August 29, 2012 - 7:58 am
A probable and simple reason why Labour went for devolved power in 1997 in because they had a lot of pressure from the Council Of Europe to do so as explained on the realmofscotland website. While not fully corroborated the level of detail provided is very persuasive, more persuasive than all the other crap I have read or listened too.
I really liked the article but don’t forget that transfer of powers has also been given/devolved to westminster with responsibility for the crown estate in Scotland a key example handed over in 1835.
A more recent example that irks many independence supporters is the signing over of jurisdiction of the part of the North sea/seabed handing a large chunk of Scottish territory to English control without so much as a vote. I mean why even do this and, why do it now and in contrary to a long established territorial boundary that nobody was disputing?
#22 by gavin on August 29, 2012 - 8:38 am
The settlement we have now, cant stand. The logic of both ruling Westminster parties, further deregulation, further privatisation, means that at some point they are going to collect funding at source rather than the tax pot. If we stay funded as we are, then we have to follow their lead. I dont see any serious move for fiscal autonomy coming from Westminster, indeed, as we saw with Lords reform, even if it were Manifesto promised, I doubt it could pass either House. Its time we accepted our situation as a kind of bigger Strathclyde, or went the whole hog.
#23 by Alasdair Frew-Bell on August 29, 2012 - 9:57 am
I have never been a fan of Scottish nationalism as a party political “thing”. I believe the “idea” cuts across the conventional notions of party as bequeathed to us by Westminster and that to expect the SNP to carry and sustain both the idea and the praxis is too much. Our great weakness has been the failure to create a “national movement” which would attract the brightest and the best regardless of their secondary political allegiance. A movement which would not become bogged down in the minutiae of Westminster style “debate” but focus on the greater, and to me more exciting, notion of national renewal.
#24 by Indy on August 29, 2012 - 1:05 pm
Regarding the article itself I can’t remember who it was that said power concedes nothing without a demand but that is absolutely bang on.
There would be no devolution without a demand. There will be no independence without a demand.
If people decide they don’t want independence then there is no reason at all to assume that further powers will then be devolved. They will only be devolved if there is a clear demand.
There was an opportunity to gauge that level of demand by having a second question on Devo max but it looks increasingly likely that won’t happen because the No parties have colluded to isolate that option and make it untouchable.
So where will we be if there is a No vote? Exactly where we are now only without any further imperative to expand the powers of the Scottish Parliament – except from the SNP. So we would just be back to where we started really. Quite funny in a way. Except I suspect the SNP might become a bit bigger as small n nationalists would jump ship. If they were certain that full blown independence was off the agenda they would be more willing to campaign for Devo Max. The only flaw with that being that delivering Devo Max within the Union would actually be more difficult than just going for independence.
#25 by Alasdair Stirling on August 31, 2012 - 12:11 am
There is only one problem with delivering a Devo-Max settlement. It requires the agreement of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters (or their MPs). However, things really only get interesting once a Devo-Max settlement is in place.
If Scotland retains its representation at Westminster it is only a matter of time before Scottish MPs are forcing policy upon an English/Welsh/Northern Irish majority (or preventing the adoption of their favoured policy). Alternatively, if Scots MPs leave Westminster (similar arrangement to the Isle of Mann and Channel Islands) then sooner or later the England/Wales/Northern Irish MPs will force a repugnant policy upon Scotland.
In operation, a Devo-Max arrangement has the effect of reducing either England/Wales/Northern Ireland or Scotland to a quasi-colony of the other. I think that is an arrangement that will long endure.
#26 by Chris on August 29, 2012 - 1:30 pm
The constant re-writing of history is tiresome. The narrative that Labour only delivered devolution in response to a nationalist threat is useful propaganda for nationalists, but in reality far from the truth. Quoting George Robertson is useful, but please remember that he was very far from mainstream Labour opinion. Yes there were people in the Labour Party opposed to devolution (Cook, Dalyell, Wilson) but they were marginal voices out of line with mainstream opinion.
Following the discovery of Oil there was a general uprising of confidence in Scotland. Some of this was represented by an increase in broad-nationalism, a lot of it was represented by an increased support for independence and SNP and more of it was represented by increased support for home rule. Home rulers found a home in Labour and the Liberals and even – for a while – in the Conservatives. Whilst Keir Hardie’s demand for home rule had been forgotten and with barely any public demand for it until the 1970s, the democratic sentiment was appealling to most Labour people.
Up to 1997 the SNP’s main political damage was to the Conservatives – they really weren’t a threat to Labour except in a few seats. Look where the 11 SNP MPs in 1974 came from. Their only Clydeside seat (E Dunbartonshire) was a gain from the Conservsatives!
It seems curiously ahistorical to present this process as a sudden and unexpected rise of the SNP (deus ex machina) responded to by a Labour central committee stroking chins and inventing devolution to see off this unexpected force. Surely it is much more obvious that an increase in nationalist sentiment (in its widest sense) influenced all political parties in different ways, but broadly similar directions.
#27 by Richard Thomson on August 30, 2012 - 11:03 pm
But as Jim Callaghan said to Winnie Ewing c.1974: “It’s not the 11 seats you have that worry me, it’s all the second places.”
#28 by Don Francisco on August 29, 2012 - 1:50 pm
Good post Alasdair, but I don’t think you are cynical enough! All politicians are interested in extending their reach, whether by extension over others or in powers. So though Westminster of course will be reluctant to let powers go, nationalists will of course want more. Powers in the UK move sometimes by intent but often by chance & opportunity.
Devolution as certainly far more substantial than say the Local Authorities, which barely make any sense at all. The attempt to allow cities to have a Major just underlines their directionlessness.
Neither the Yes or the No campaign has exactly set their stall out, each are waiting for the other to make a Big Announcement so they can turn their media & PR gurus on it and take it to pieces. Anticipate many more months to come of mud slinging, empty gestures and No Policies.
#29 by Alasdair Stirling on August 31, 2012 - 12:13 am
You have no idea of the depths of my cynicism 🙂
Reject all authority you cannot justify by reason!
#30 by David on August 29, 2012 - 3:59 pm
It’s pretty sweeping to pronounce that no-one has made any undertakings on more powers.
You need to put in a call to Ming Campbell or Clifton Terrace…
#31 by Alasdair Stirling on August 30, 2012 - 11:41 pm
Maybe you know something I don’t know, but I have no knowledge of any public commitment by Ming Campbell or the Scottish Liberal Democratic Party on any specific measure for enhancing devolution. Just setting up a talking shop doesn’t unless the party adopts its report as policy.
#32 by David on August 29, 2012 - 4:06 pm
http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk/news/2012/08/scvo-chief-nails-colours-mast-rejected-paper
#33 by Doug Daniel on August 30, 2012 - 3:47 pm
I think even the Herald has given up on this particular attempted character assassination.
#34 by Chris on August 31, 2012 - 8:15 am
Type your comment here
Indy – you are only correct to a point. SLA – which I was a supporter of – was a small group basically consisting of former student activists. The successful attempts by the right of the party “the project” to quash left-wing voices showed how weak their position was. Even though their argument was strong.
You are missing the influence of the STUC and left-leaning unions and union leaders (Bob Thompson, Bill Speirs and Jim Devine), as well as the genuine conviction of the likes of Smith and Dewar. Most support for devolution was genuine from all wings of the party. Those – like Robertson – who saw it as a tactic were really in a minority. Before 1997 most opponents like Cook (even becoming a SLA supporter) had been converted and others like Wilson had realised that the argument was lost. Leaving the eccentric Dalyell and the miniscule ILP* as the only opponents of Devolution within the party.
#35 by Chris on August 31, 2012 - 8:30 am
Type your comment here
There seems to be no reason to believe that independence will make any difference to this. Is anyone proposing a more redistributive tax system for Scotland?
We have the power now to reduce social inequality by either increasing income tax or council tax. Given that the Scottish parliament is unwilling to put up those taxes it can put up to protect services AND insists on a regressive council tax freeze the prospects for improved social equality doesn’t look that great.
If the argument rests on keeping all the oil money for ourselves and spending it to help the poor most then (a) this is a zero sum game as the losers will be poor people elsewhere in the UK, I care about them too, and (b) no-one is saying that or promising that, instead I hear about cuts to corporation tax – not going to deliver social equality is it? Trickle-down theory rears its ugly head.
#36 by Doug Daniel on August 31, 2012 - 2:46 pm
Is anyone proposing a more redistributive tax system for Scotland?
SGP and SSP?
As for putting up income tax and council tax at the moment, neither can be done in a progressive manner. Council Tax is a regressive tax that needs to be abolished, and income tax can only be increased across all bands, meaning folk on lower incomes suffer disproportionally. That won’t change even in the next Scotland Act, and this also ignores the stooshie a couple of years ago when we found out SVR was unusable and had effectively been mothballed almost as soon as Holyrood began.
Bear in mind that what the SNP says it would do in regards to tax today does not dictate Scotland’s tax regime even immediately post-independence, never mind in the future. And it’s worth remembering that Finland – one of the beacons of social democracy – is often described as being even more “business-friendly” than even the USA. There’s more than one way to tax the rich…
I look forward to you arguing in favour of the UK spending all of Scotland’s oil money helping poor people all over the world… Or do you not care for the poor outside the borders of the UK? Personally, I see no valour in condemning the poor in Glasgow just for the sake of making some sort of tenuous point about caring for the poor elsewhere.
#37 by Chris on August 31, 2012 - 8:42 am
Type your comment here
I don’t expect you will see any for two reasons:
1. This is a bare-knuckle political fight no politician is going to be allowed to concede that their opponent may even have a glimmer of a point. The time for nuanced argument has gone: the referendum makes a bad situation worse.
2. No one is going to divert resources away from the referendum campaign to propose ideas that are not going to be heard, looked at and certainly not voted on.
#38 by Commenter on August 31, 2012 - 1:03 pm
no politician
To be fair, the SNP has said they would even put a ‘devo something’ option on the ballot. You can claim ‘they’re bluffing’ but bluffs can be called if unionist parties actually want further devolution. The fact is they want freedom of movement. They don’t want to be pinned down by a referendum result that forces their hand given that in fact they aren’t much fussed about more powers. It’s all about fox-shooting for them, and at the moment the fox in their sights is the referendum.
No one is going to divert resources away from the referendum campaign
This is weak – the idea that there are not enough undefined ‘resources’ for these large UK-wide parties to formulate policy. Excuses excuses.