It might seem like an odd question. Isn’t that all we’re going to be talking about for the next 880 days? The trouble is we’re only talking about whether Scotland should be an independent state. And that’s really only the most basic issue. If the essay question says “discuss the American Constitution”, just writing “um, they’re independent?” gets you precisely zero marks.
The UK currently has no single codified constitution – although the Scotland Acts and the Parliament Acts are regarded as constitutional documents, and some would argue, so too are even famous commentaries on the constitution. Assuming an independent Scotland improves upon this unclear arrangement, a few key questions arise. Who drafts the constitution and when? Who approves it and when? What does it contain and how can it be modified?
This isn’t some dry set of issues for constitutional academics. The answers to those questions, plus the text of a final constitution itself, would determine how decisions are made in an independent Scotland, potentially in broad terms for generations to come. Although what decisions are made is the policy arena, not the constitutional one, the two interact powerfully as well. A constitution that enshrines tough rules on access to government information will tend to make decisions on the assumption they will be properly scrutinised, for example, while one that retains the hereditary principle will tend to protect vested interests.
In an ideal world, we would have a government committed to popular control of the whole process, something I made an argument for almost a year ago, involving the Scottish people in the process before the vote, so they have their say on the question, the offer, not just the answer. That looks like it’s not going to happen. In fact, the SNP already know what the constitution will be, because they wrote it almost a decade ago. The full (short) text of their Constitution for A Free Scotland is here. I’ve been unable to track down a 2011 version referred to online, so that’s the best I’ve got to go on.
And it’s dire. It describes a Scotland I do not wish to see birthed in October 2014. The hereditary principle is enshrined, for a start, lumbering us with “Queen Elizabeth and her successors“, and as head of state she “shall be responsible for the exercise of all lawful governmental functions in Scotland” upon the advice of Ministers. If Parliament doesn’t pick a First Minister, that power then also lies with the Queen, who can choose to dissolve Parliament instead if she likes. Really? Even to authors writing in 2002 should that not have felt about a hundred years out of date?
Article II paragraph 7 also requires every single tax-generating power to be renewed every eighteen months. It’s a Taxpayers’ Alliance wet dream – the argument for every tax on income, wealth, sin or profit has to be won again every cycle.
It’s also totally out of date, even in terminology. The Presiding Officer is described as “the Chancellor of Scotland” for purposes of regency. I said “First Minister” above, but actually we’re to replace that with “Prime Minister“. Maybe, but I’m not sure there’s a need. A by-election is required to fill a vacancy at Holyrood, irrespective of whether it’s for a list or constituency MSP – have our unelected constitutional framers decided to move away from the current electoral system, which, it should be noted, was already in use when this bizarre document was drafted? Actually, they don’t specify the form of PR to be used. That’s up to the Government. Perhaps you find that reassuring. I do not, given the shocking ballot-paper fiddle Westminster Labour imposed on Holyrood in 2007.
And many other key decisions are taken for us. Should we have a second revising Chamber in an independent Scotland? The framers say no. I’m relatively neutral on the subject, depending on the other structures around the main Chamber. But shouldn’t that be something considered by more than a few high heedjins of the SNP behind closed doors? Likewise, do we really want to see judges appointed for life?
Or a Scotland which permits the death penalty during war or during imminent threat of war? Is this brave new nation of ours to be one where the rights conferred by the constitution can be ignored if the purpose is the imposition of “restrictions on the political activities of aliens“? I repeat, this constitution would permit restrictions on political activities only of “aliens“. A list of other exemptions also apply to these protections, including “the prevention of crime or civil disorder“. There would be no limit, effectively, to a Blair/Brown-style disregard for civil liberties, and any protest whatsoever could be clamped down upon in the name of public safety or order.
Bulmer’s admirable and constructive 2011 paper “An Analysis of the Scottish National Party’s Draft Constitution for Scotland” flags up a series of other problems. There’s nothing in this bizarre tract on parties, the impartiality of the civil service, or votes of confidence, and Bulmer also raises concerns about the ability of Ministers to interfere with the electoral system. Across the issue of the appointment and removal of “Prime Ministers”, he notes that “the draft Constitution appears as a retrograde step when compared with the Scotland Act“.
Overall, Bulmer says, “the draft Constitution appears not only much less radical than at first sight, but also much less technically competent that it ought to be“, and inherits much from the first draft, written in 1977, when “much of the work was done by small groups of friends in late-night whisky sessions“. That might be understandable in the 1970s, when independence was quite the cranky fringe project, but times have changed, and as Bulmer says, “fewer excuses can be made for the 2002 version. The draft Constitution reads as if the Claim of Right, the Scotland Act and the Consultative Steering Group, had never existed.”
The general problem here is that this is the kind of dross people cook up when the public aren’t involved. And it doesn’t have to be like that, even at this stage, despite the year the SNP majority government has just wasted, including on a limited consultation that didn’t touch on any of these issues.
There’s still time for a commitment to an open Iceland-style constitutional process. A pledge that a successful yes vote will not just lead to Scottish Ministers haggling with UK Ministers, it’ll lead to the Scottish people being asked what kind of new and, dare I say it, better nation they want to live in. A promise that they’ll get to ratify their work in another referendum, something that wouldn’t have been necessary if the last year had seen Ministers launch an open and participatory process, rather than another top-down elite project. If time isn’t found by the SNP leadership to make those basic commitments they will instead make a wide variety of rods for the collective backs of those of us who are committed to genuine independence.
Every time a member of the Yoonyonisht Conshpirashy finds themselves on a doorstep with a waverer, this approach gives them a perfect excuse to pour the voter’s worst fears into their ears. “Want the Queen? Don’t want the Queen? The SNP aren’t giving you a choice. It’s take it or leave it. Want to see an open constitutional process? Forget it. They don’t trust you. It’s a pig in a poke.” That’s the sort of poison this approach hands the defenders of the unaccountable and apparently unreformable Westminster system. In fact, as my esteemed colleague Aidan pointed out to me, is that any switch from the Queen will in fact be harder if a first referendum of the SNP’s preferred sort has been won, predicated as it appears to be on retaining the hereditary principle.
Instead let’s open the doors and let the people in. This is an extraordinary opportunity, most likely the only one I will see in my lifetime. We should have the chance to create a Scotland fit for our ambitions and our optimistic imagination, yet if there is no change of tack then that opportunity risks foundering on the arrogance of this SNP administration.
#1 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 10:20 am
For the record the SNP’s draft constitution was written by the late Professor Neil McCormick – lest anybody think it actually was cooked up by a bunch of drunken nats.
#2 by alex g on May 22, 2012 - 10:36 am
really interesting article james and i completely agree with you that any and every slightly muddy issue will be used by certain groups to try and scare voters into voting no. (and this is coming from a now ex member of one of those parties thoroughly pissed with their methods)
I really hope the snp leadership understand this and provide as much detail about the post yes vote scotland as possible. It does not matter whether someone supported the av vote or not and the mayoral votes, but both the no campaigns showed exactly the sort of campaign the no crowd will run on in 2014, scant use of the truth and an extreme attempt to scare people into voting no, rather than a discussion on the facts (though the yes campaigns in these cases hardly covered themselves in glory either though).
interesting question re who does write this sort of thing. Can’t imagine the civil service would be allowed, so is it still interested parties within the snp and wider independence movement? Will they pay for (and it seems you don’t like the term, but i am imagining the guy from west wing who discusses constitutional theory with toby and barlett) constitutional experts to write the document?
#3 by Commenter on May 22, 2012 - 10:58 am
I’d love to see the result in an alternative universe where James sets the agenda for the referendum. Maybe an 80% no vote? I commend your… enthusiasm? But I suspect you have a tin ear when it comes to what Scots care about or what will enthuse them.
#4 by James on May 22, 2012 - 11:03 am
It would be some arrogance to claim that the Scottish people do not want to take part in this process, and that they should be prevented from doing so. Also, despite backing independence, I think most people care more about their jobs and about public services, so what, generally, does your final point mean?
#5 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 11:03 am
I’ll read this properly at lunchtime, but when he was being interviewed by Craig Ferguson recently, I distinctly remember Eck saying a constitution written by the people would be a good idea. Or something like that.
It may be nothing like that though, as my memory is pants.
#6 by Stuart MacLennan on May 22, 2012 - 11:08 am
Let’s not ignore the fact that the arcane Crown Prerogative transfers in its entirety to the Prime Minister of Scotland! If you had the chance to build a system from scratch, who in their right mind would build it like that which we have at the moment?!
The more substantive question, and it’s one which someone ought to be seriously raising during the course of the broader debate is what is the point of independence if it doesn’t amount to meaningful change? If all that’s on offer is a Little Britain of our own, is it really worth it?
#7 by Gryff on May 22, 2012 - 11:11 am
Count me as one who doesn’t see the need for a written constitution at all, and actually this demonstrates why. If we put aside the possibility of a great popular convention, then the democrat’s best option is as little constitution encodification as possible. The less is set in stone, the less power we are handing to the setters, and the more freedom we give the people to chance things in the future. At the bare minimum an independent Scotland will require a treaty governing its seperation from the UK. the Scottish Parliament will need some reform to cope with the new powers it will have then, and legal loose ends will need tied up. If at some stage in the future there is a great clamour for something (a republic, a second chamber) then it will be easier to put that in to place if we don’t try and fix everything now.
#8 by James on May 22, 2012 - 11:29 am
Without a constitution, what happens if a post-independence FM or PM loses a vote of confidence? What if an election is inconclusive? What if Parliament tries to pass a law that does indeed restrict the political activities of “aliens”?
That’s like saying you want to play poker but you don’t care whether everyone playing knows what the rules are or agrees with them beforehand.
#9 by Iain Menzies on May 22, 2012 - 11:45 am
He didn’t say we don’t need a constitution….just not a written one.
The problem i have with your post, other than certain policy options you obviously favour, is that you don’t actually make, or seem to attempt to make, a case for a written constitution.
The problem i have with a written constitution is simply this: it will be wrong.
Doesn’t matter who writes it and is involved in the writing of it, it wont be good enough. There will be something that causes a problem at some point, which will then have to be changed, and then you get a problem of HOW you change the constitution being almost as important an issue as WHAT you want to change.
You can dislike the British Constitution as it stands, but changing it is easily enough done. When you compare the ease with which (legally at least) black people were ‘freed’ in the UK and compare that with African-American civil rights the benefits of a written constitution in terms of righting a wrong is less clear cut that your post assumes.
#10 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 12:00 pm
You are not a constitutional expert and you are just going to go round in circles with this. Neither am I but I can google and maybe you should as well.
It stands to reason that a lot of the stuff in the constitution will just be what is the norm pretty much.
To take as an example the death penalty clauses. If you google that you will find that Protocol No. 6 to the European Convention on Human Rights
prohibits the death penalty in peacetime;although it is still allowed “in time of war or of imminent threat of war”.
It seems that protocol has now been updated however to prohibit the death penalty in wartime – so the draft constitution would also need to be updated. I would imagine this will be an automatic process with ECHR.
Ditto the term “aliens” and those provisions – which comes directly from Article 16 of ECHR.
So in both those cases you cite as presumably demonstrating sinister intent the wording has been lifted directly from ECHR.
Therefore it is not quite as you think it is. It’s not the case that the SNP want Scotland uniquely to be able to shoot people in times of war or round up all the aliens! These provisions are Europe-wide.
I would suggest therefore that if you want to do an analysis of it you should start by getting a lawyer to look at all the provisions – there are plenty of them on the internet! Then take out everything which is just the standard position across all European jurisdictions and only at that point can you look at what is specific to Scotland.
#11 by James on May 22, 2012 - 12:05 pm
I don’t care if God himself handed it down on tartan-wrapped tablets to Alex Salmond on Arthur’s Seat – Scotland should not move to a constitution that permits the death penalty or discrimination against “aliens” in any circumstances.
#12 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 12:33 pm
It has nothing to do with Alex Salmond or indeed God ! It is to do with ECHR as I have just explained.
Article 16 of the European Convention on Human Rights states
Restrictions on political activity of aliens
Nothing in Articles 10, 11 and 14 shall be regarded as preventing the High Contracting Parties from imposing restrictions on the political activity of aliens.
So when you read the draft constitution and it says:
“Nothing in paragraphs 10, 11, 13, 14 or 16 of this Article of the Constitution shall have the effect of invalidating legislation by the Parliament of Scotland, which imposes restrictions on the political activities of aliens” that is simply replicating what is in ECHR.
There is little point in stamping your feet about it.
Get a legal opinion on whether it would be possible to have a written constitution which said that under no circumstances could any Scottish government or parliament put restrictions on the political activities of aliens and see what answer you get.
I repeat – you ought to get a lawyer to look at it and isolate what is actually political and therefore susceptible to debate and what just a statement of the legal position and therefore not really susceptible to debate.
Otherwise it’s a bit of a waste of time.
#13 by James on May 22, 2012 - 12:58 pm
Your argument is presumably not that the ECHR requires us to permit restrictions on “aliens”? Fine, yes, it’s Article 16, but it’s a floor, not a ceiling, and we can and should do better.
#14 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 1:09 pm
Since I am not a lawyer I would not even try to make a legal argument about ECHR! Cos I don’t know what I am talking about.
But common sense tells me that, where the provisions of ECHR are replicated in the constitution, it is because that is the supreme body of legislation.
Whatever is in the constitution – and whoever writes it – must comply with ECHR, no? So you will inevitably have a lot of cutting and pasting essentially but it’s important to identfy when that is the case and when you are talking about something that is wholly within the power of the Scottish Parliament/Government to decide.
#15 by James on May 22, 2012 - 1:15 pm
Summoning @loveandgarbage, @ianssmart and @peatworrier..
#16 by Lallands Peat Worrier on May 23, 2012 - 9:26 am
In answer to the question, no. There’s absolutely no reason why the Scottish constitution should reiterate the rights as framed by the European Convention. That is a political choice (and a failure of the imagination, perhaps?) but by no means an unerring constitutional necessity.
European human rights law isn’t supreme, but it would not be without claims on an independent Scotland signed up to it. We have to be careful to distinguish a couple of things.
Let’s assume that an independent Scotland becomes a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights, as the UK is at present. In international law, it will have undertaken to abide by the Convention, and defend the rights enshrined in it. Those are obligations on the international level. That obligation does not require ECHR norms to be incorporated into domestic law (a la the Human Rights Act 1998), but only that the state observe its international obligations.
If we ignore the death penalty protocols to the Convention for the sake of making the point, Article 2 of the European Convention makes the death penalty an exception to the general right to life. Before protocols were drawn up and agreed to, European states could execute transgressive members of their population in particular circumstances, and not be held to violate fundamental rights. That is quite a different proposition from *requiring* states to have death penalties in their penal statutes, or permitted by their constitutions. The rights of the Convention are generally theorised as a floor, a minimum standard to be attained, not the upper limit to what can be done. While that obviously mandates the elimination of domestic laws which fail to meet mandated minimum standards, that leaves a very wide margin of discretion to entrench far more extensive constitutional rights than the ECHR envisages. That is, to recognise new rights (for example, those generally theorised under the rubric of social and cultural rights) or to provide greater constitutional protection to the sorts of rights recognised in the Convention (for example, the Court have accepted that the practice of the executive having a role in judicial appointments is compliance with Article 6 of the Convention. You might wish to go further in your formal assurances of judicial independence, by eliminating the ministerial role altogether).
The upshot: if an independent Scotland signed up to it, it would have international obligations to abide by the European Convention, but none to replicate its terms in its constitution. The SNP draft elected to do so as a conscious constitution-building strategy. A critical difference.
#17 by alex g on May 22, 2012 - 12:59 pm
struggling a bit here to work out what you two are arguing aobut.
i don’t think anyone (well maybe not quite everyone 😉 ) seriously believes that members of the snp actually want the prevision to bring back capital punishment or remove the political rights of ‘aliens’, to be in a constitution for an independent scotland. surely this us just legal nonsense copied from an old document (from a time when we were still worried the reds were going to march across europe.) and something which would be removed from a final constitution.
#18 by Gryff on May 22, 2012 - 12:07 pm
With your first two scenarios, we already have the bare bones for the running of the SP, and the appointment of the SG from that. If anything needs tidying up in that respect it can be done so through ordinary legislation, and changed and chanegd again as needs dictate.
As regards your second point, you have to trust a democracy not to do anything too egregious, and accept that no constitution will ever succesfully protect a country from itself. The Weimer republic had a constitution, the US had a constitution which coexisted with slavery. I have no objection to codified constitutions per se, but don’t know why a young nation would want to lumber tiself with all that baggage to quickly.
#19 by Robert Blake on May 22, 2012 - 11:47 am
The SNP have a draft as their starting point, certain other bodies, not all of whom I respect, have theirs
However, to go through a constitutional debate this side of the referendum is folly
The point of an Independent Scotland is to make it anew according to the wishes of the Scots.
Start a Constitutional debate like that now, then not only are you jumping the gun and giving the impression of being smug and arrogant, but you risk confusing the Independence debate with matters of policy
The Independence Referendum is a thing and of itself, but it will not immediately and instantly lead to independence, once that referendum is won, THEN set up a Constitutional convention.
#20 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 12:35 pm
That simply will not happen though. Assuming a Yes vote we’ll have just had 2 years of constitutional debate followed by what’s going to be an inevitably quite divisive campaign then a period of years for negotiation of terms of independence and another period of implementing the result of that negotiation. That’s, even on optimistic time scales, the best part of a decade away.
Do you really think the Scottish public will wear it’s politicians then saying “ok, hold on, we need to talk about the constitution some more”?
#21 by pozorvlak on May 22, 2012 - 3:29 pm
It would be nice to know in advance if we’re voting to live in a fairer, more democratic nation than we currently do, or the reverse.
#22 by Robert Blake on May 22, 2012 - 11:49 am
One thing.
If the Constitution has in it the detailed instructions on how to declare martial law, as one right-wing body’s version has in the past, it can, to use the vernacular, GTF
#23 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 11:50 am
Unconciously though are you not merely cementing the idea of SNP proposals as the only official route for change? The SNP are quite entitled to propose whatever constitution they want. It doesn’t mean that has to be the constitution. I would prefer if other movers started acting less like SNP pressure groups, shrug off this temptation to try and mould the SNP’s views and get on with campaigning for what they want themselves. It’s merely encouraging the view that a YES vote is an acceptance of an SNP offer. Indpendence is a political principle not constrained by one party. I feel like this article just shows a lack of dynamism and forgets what politics is all about. Why feel like you need to change the SNP’s view? Have your own. Shrug off the SNP’s ideas as “not for me” and offer your own ideas. We need people to understand that a Yes vote is a vote for many different colours of views. You don’t have to agree. In fact, I hope the Yes camp doesn’t. James, you say that the Yes camp is being humstrung by the concept of monarchy in an independent Scotland? Maybe it is. Only because nobody has a clue that there are other, competing ideas for how a Yes Scotland may work. The SNP or Salmond says we’ll have this and that. A yes vote is not the SNP. But everyone seems to think it and maybe even you do too.
#24 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 12:38 pm
A yes vote is surely an endorsement of whatever offer the Yes campaign, which is quite clearly SNP dominated at this point, put on the table?
Or are you arguing “vote Yes to whatever vision of independence you like, so long as you vote yes”?
#25 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 1:02 pm
Yes because that’s what independence is. The question is should Scotland be independent or not? It is not on whether you agree with the Yes campaign. The Yes campaign may, in time, be a complete shambles or a bloody good one. “They”, at the head of it will, whoever “they” are, have their own individual ideas of what Scotland they want. The concept of independence is for everyone; people that couldn’t give a damn about the SNP, Labour, Green or whatever political party happens to be around in this extremely small sliver of history. Do you think people should be forced to vote no because they don’t agree with the specific proposal given by a small group of people at the head of the Yes campaign? I’ll vote for it because over time, given the opportunity, the ability of the people living here to hold government to account will ultimately improve lives here. I couldn’t care less if the “offer” has a monarchy or not, a bank of england or not. Ultimately, if the people deem the initial framework not to be upto scratch, issues will rear its head, be debated and decided by the will of the people. No “offer” will ever or should be set in stone. This isn’t a contract for goodness sake. It’s merely a concept of how we might proceed.
#26 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 1:39 pm
“Vote Yes for whatever you think Independence should be even if that’s not actually what’s on offer”. Really?!
#27 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 1:59 pm
But Aidan that is what people always vote on.
You would like us to vote for the Union presumably on the basis that we could eventually see a Labour Government returned to power which could start to reverse some of the Tories most damaging policies.
But we could equally be voting to remain in a Union governed by the Tories for the next 20 years.
No-one knows, do they?
Whichever way you vote, no-one will know for sure what the political outcomes might be. That will depend on the voters. The only question is which set of voters do you want to decide, the Scottish electorate or the UK electorate?
#28 by James on May 22, 2012 - 2:06 pm
Actually, Aidan’s a lot more flexible and open-minded on this than you may think.
#29 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 4:17 pm
I’m not sure I’d describe “do this exact thing and I’ll think about it” as “flexible”…
#30 by Aidan on May 24, 2012 - 1:10 am
I’m not opposed to independence in principle. I’m opposed to independence, as it’s currently articulated, because it doesn’t address the underlying social and economic iniquity, or the wider international structures, which are responsible for most of the problems facing Scotland.
If independence addressed any of them, I’d probably vote yes. If it addressed several of them I’d be up a close shoving leaflets through doors, taking names and noting them on a list.
What’s currently on offer is exquisitely designed to address none of them.
#31 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 2:41 pm
“Vote yes to Independence because those English people aren’t like us”?
#32 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 9:30 pm
What does it have to do with the English people?
#33 by Aidan on May 24, 2012 - 1:13 am
well, ok. To quote you ” The only question is which set of voters do you want to decide, the Scottish electorate or the UK electorate?”
So I guess it’s English, Welsh and Northern Irish who aren’t like us.
#34 by scottish_skier on May 22, 2012 - 9:40 pm
My wife is French. I’ll be voting yes as will she. We’ve discussed a French-Scottish/UK? unitary state and decided against it unanimously. I like the fact she’s French and she feels the same about me being Scottish (the kilt has always been a winner).
The painter painting my extension is English – originally from Liverpool; he’s been living here 15 years. I raised the subject and he’ll be voting yes too. ‘Red Tories’ was one of the terms he used to descride the party he once believed in.
I’m stuggling to understand what you mean by your post. Are you implying my wife and I are xenophobic? Is my English painter anti-himself?
Help me here, I’m struggling.
#35 by Allan on May 22, 2012 - 7:48 pm
Well a pro-Independence argument could go along the lines of Scotland being governed by pro-Thatcherite governments for the past 33 years…
#36 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 2:13 pm
I’d appreciate it if you didn’t quote something apparantly from me that’s not actually there. However, if you think people will be voting yes in the referendum will all be in unitiary agreement about the specifics offered by a couple of well healed politicians you’re probably wrong. I think many will see it as an opportunity for Scotland to change further than the initial extremely short term transitional era. And yes I actually agree with that quote. Don’t really think really with an exclamation mark and an air of ridicule really wins it for you, I’m afraid.
I simply believe that Scotland would be best governed by a Government put their 100% by the people living here. It may not even be the Government I want but it’ll be the Government we all accept as a matter of democracy. That’s it. That’s why I will vote Yes. Given this what do you propose I do in a referendum asking me; do you want Scotland to be an independent country?
#37 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 3:14 pm
So I should vote Yes to independence because I think Scotland should be a republic even though that’s not on the table and likely wouldn’t be for a very long time after independence?
You believe in an independent Scotland as point of principle, regardless of what that actually looks like. That’s fine, but it doesn’t really address people who think Scottish independence might be a tool to achieve wider aims rather than an end in itself.
#38 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 3:41 pm
No you’re quite wrong with you’re second paragraph. I believe that the Government voted for and accountable to the people is the means with which to achieve better things for the people that live here. Far from an end in itself. If you think I’m a person that thinks Day 1 everything has been achieved then you’re quite wrong. That’s my whole point. You can’t vote for a principle like independence based purely on the short term “offer”. It’s the ability to change our environment akin to the values of the electorate over long term which attracts me.
#39 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 4:12 pm
Why can’t that change happen with the democratic UK structures? ETA: and, more to the point, having just spent 6+ years focusing on the independence question isn’t there going to be a strong argument that the Scottish people have just endorsed whatever constitutional changes that ends up being in a referendum and anybody seeking to change it is challenging the recently expressed will of the people to, for example, retain the monarchy?
#40 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 4:22 pm
“isn’t there going to be a strong argument that the Scottish people have just endorsed whatever constitutional changes that ends up being in a referendum and anybody seeking to change it is challenging the recently expressed will of the people to, for example, retain the monarchy?”
No, it’s going to be an undeniable fact that the recently expressed will of the people is that we want to decide such things for ourselves.
#41 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 4:25 pm
Maybe it can, maybe it can’t. That’ll be one of the many questions going through the many people when they make their choice between Yes or No.
I happen to believe one Parliament is better. You think it should be done in a democratic UK structure.
We either assert independence or we don’t. Seems a referendum is in order.
My initial comment was to highlight the issue of short-termism, only looking at the big players in the here and now, only thinking about the transitional “offer”, and the SNP. All very important things but we should be looking further ahead than one party’s (SNP) and increasingly one man’s viewpoint. I want to see less suffocating from the SNP and less carping from the back from the Greens. I didn’t come on to have a debate about the pro’s and con’s of the independence debate itself.
#42 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 4:34 pm
Unless that’s pretty explicit I’m really don’t see the post-referendum politics going that way – isn’t there at least a good chance it’ll be “let independence bed down while we negotiate terms, implement them, see how they work for a while”?
#43 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 4:51 pm
Well the second Scotland votes “yes”, I’m changing my independence hat for my republican one, and I’m fairly sure I’m nowhere near alone in that. I expect we would also be joined by republicans who voted “no” as well.
#44 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 4:33 pm
“having just spent 6+ years focusing on the independence question isn’t there going to be a strong argument that the Scottish people have just endorsed whatever constitutional changes that ends up being in a referendum and anybody seeking to change it is challenging the recently expressed will of the people to, for example, retain the monarchy?”
No. If the Scottish people decide to want a change in something I think it will happen….
Most of us voted for a Parliament with a diddly wee 3p thing. Nobody seriously suggests that people were so engrossed in this one aspect and so utterly supportive of it that it’s deemed forever more unchallengable!
If you want to see change in the monarchy there’s only one vote that makes it more likely. Let’s call a spade a spade.
#45 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 5:00 pm
There’s a difference between the details of the devolution settlement – which were designed to be amendable – and the over arching constitutional questions such as the monarchy.
Are you really saying that, if Scotland votes Yes, we’ll be into a period of rolling referendums?
#46 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 5:39 pm
No, that’s unsurprisingly not what I’m saying. However, if the people want a referendum on something, why shouldn’t we have it?
Whether the people want one or not is a different matter.
I honestly have no idea how the country will decide to see things in light of an assertion on independence. But if there is a groundswell of opinion for something, it’s only right it gets attention.
Personally, I don’t really see a flurry of referenda, though. Do you? On what? The monarchy and what else?
#47 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 8:38 pm
Surely any major post-indy constitutional changes would also require a referendum?
#48 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 9:08 pm
You’re the one saying there will be rolling referenda. I can think of one that might happen if there is enough support for it ie monarchy. What else? Why did you think I didn’t think there should be referenda for major constitutional change? Am intrigued, I can’t think why you asked that.
#49 by Aidan on May 22, 2012 - 5:07 pm
That’s great but Scotland will have just recently explicitly endorsed keeping her Maj.
#50 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 5:51 pm
Really? Better stop me voting Yes then. Such an explicitly monarchial question isn’t it. Do you want Scotland to be an independent country? Please, go down Sauchiehall street and ask 100 people that question and tell me if 100 of them agree that they are voting explicitly for or against monarchy.
#51 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 9:43 pm
Her Maj will be dead relatively soon. Sorry to be so blungt but that is the way it is. And any decision should wait until that point.
If you held a referendum on the monarchy now people would vote to keep the Queen. I would bet everything I ow on that. Not because they approve of the monarchy as an institution but because they would think it was the height of bad manners to say to the old girl well thanks for the sixty years or however long it is but now that you are approaching the final straight we have decided to chuck you out. There is no way at this point in time that you could hold a referendum on the monarchy without it being a referendum on the Queen herself, the woman in person. It would be unbelievably stupid and would very probably entrench the monarchy as an institution in a way that is totally unnecessary if people would just exercise a little patience and common sense.
#52 by Doug Daniel on May 23, 2012 - 1:07 am
“That’s great but Scotland will have just recently explicitly endorsed keeping her Maj.”
No we won’t.
Unless you’re privy to secret information stating that the potential second question on the referendum will in fact be a “do you want to keep the monarchy in Scotland forever and ever?” question…
#53 by Aidan on May 24, 2012 - 1:16 am
@Doug
Scotland is, on current plans, about to vote on a constitutional change which explicitly includes HMQ and her heirs and successors as the head of state. It’s not a secret. It’s not explicitly “forever and ever” but is explicitly retaining the monarchy.
#54 by Holebender on May 22, 2012 - 7:06 pm
Please explain to me how you think Scotland could become a republic by voting NO to independence. Seriously, how? If Scotland remains in the UK Scotland gets whatever the UK decides Scotland gets. If the UK becomes a republic Scotland becomes a republic regardless of what Scotland’s population wants. If the UK does not become a republic, neither does Scotland regardless of what Scotland’s population wants.
If you don’t want those decisions made in Scotland, say so, but don’t give us all this guff about being against independence because you might not get the exact outcome you (and you alone) want. It really is as simple as “do you want all decisions about Scotland made in Scotland or in the whole UK”. That is the question you will be voting on in 2014.
#55 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 9:34 pm
Oh. My. God. It could be on the table at the first post-independence general election if people want it to be. If they don’t it won’t. Same as with every other policy.
#56 by Aidan on May 24, 2012 - 1:20 am
My whole point is that most people will be so fed up with constitutional navel gazing that it will inevitably tend towards nothing.
The independence referendum provides a once in a lifetime chance to reshape the way Scotland is governed from top to bottom. It will not come again.
#57 by alex g on May 22, 2012 - 12:41 pm
though that is all very good in a sandbox world, we don’t live in a sandbox.
Our politics (for the time being) is completely wrapped up in our parties and (sadly) the only way to be heard (outside of very limited readerships of blogs dare i say) is to be a part of these parties.
James or anyone could have these ideas but frankly no one will hear them because the media will ignore you. The only option is to try and ‘mould’ the various parties views and as the SNP and the Greens are only serious parties to be in favour of an independent scotland, they have to be the parties that people work through.
#58 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 1:30 pm
I agree with you. I’m more frustrated at the idea that the SNP is deemed the only prospect for putting forward the “Independence Opinion”. The Greens, whom I quite like, are acting like an SNP pressure group trying to mould the SNP Independence Opinion. Rather than have its own ideas.
The illness is “the people” presume a vote for independence is the SNP agenda.
One symptom is the Greens greetin’ that the Independence Agenda is wrong.
The cure is for the Greens and others to work with the SNP to change the public perception of the Independence Agenda. The independence Agenda should not be you’re voting for us. It should be you’re voting for the ability to vote either for us or not, or even the folk on the other side with an undiluted force from the south. The priorities of the people in terms of public services, business, foreign policy are, in some ways, shared amongst ALL the parties from Socialist to Tory. Independence is just the ability to choose a Government according to the public’s mood along this spectrum every time an election comes. My desire for all the people of Scotland to get a Government they want is much more important than me getting the Government I personally want.
#59 by James on May 22, 2012 - 2:02 pm
If Greens try to work with the SNP to make sure the people get an early say on the constitution, what do you think the SNP would do?
This isn’t about what sort of government an independent Scotland gets – I agree, that’s for a regular election later on. This is about how that government is elected, how the people’s rights are protected, all the issues set out here. It should be above politics, but apparently it’s not of interest to the current SNP hierarchy.
#60 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 2:16 pm
“It should be above politics, but apparently it’s not of interest to the current SNP hierarchy.”
Well then, let’s ignore them and set it out by ourselves instead. Perhaps a “shovel ready” constitution would be harder to ignore!
#61 by James on May 22, 2012 - 2:24 pm
Fine. Let’s do this thing.
#62 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 2:32 pm
Don’t reinvent the wheel though. There is the Independence Convention, there are also these people who seem to be looking at a draft constitution:
http://www.constitutionalcommission.org/
#63 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 2:56 pm
If only you had a blog on which to publish a series of articles on individual planks that should make up the constitution so we could all debate them!
#64 by James on May 22, 2012 - 3:24 pm
+1 except that’d be me taking charge a bit more than I’d like 😉
#65 by Jeff on May 22, 2012 - 3:28 pm
+2
#66 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 2:37 pm
I don’t know James. Have you asked them? Am sorry if am coming across a bit rude. Am just getting a wee bit bored of the way this whole independence thing is being perceived. The Greens should be at the forefront alongside the SNP and everyone else advocating independence as equals. It seems to me that the Greens are keen to use the SNP as a chute, carping from the back of the battle line rather than come out alongside (but entirely succinct) and showing us, the people there are different opinions of how an independent Scotland could work in the future. You may say that you are doing this but nobody out there knows. The media, of course, play a part too.
I am of no party and bear no allegiance to any party. The SNP are having a terrible campaign in my view in this most important aspect of the campaign. They’ve failed to let anyone else in, people aren’t voting for a concept merely because it appears to come from one party.
As regards to the constitution you’re probably not going to like this either! I don’t really feel like we need a written constitution. However, I’m not really against having one either. Politicians will do as the please if democracy gives them a mandate. If enough people want a change should they be humstrung by the views, surely developed, of people 100 years ago who made the constitution? We should have certain rights kept above and beyond but are they not all kept under ECHR anyway?
#67 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 2:52 pm
Ken whit I’ve actually changed my mind. I think we need to have laid out rules as to how Parliament works. Totally crowd sourced. However, rights seem a slightly different matter.
#68 by Holebender on May 22, 2012 - 7:15 pm
I think a lot of your concerns will be answered when the YES campaign launches in a few days. It will most definitely not be a wholly (maybe not even a majority) SNP thing.
#69 by Edinburgh observer on May 22, 2012 - 7:48 pm
“I am of no party and bear no allegiance to any party. The SNP are having a terrible campaign in my view in this most important aspect of the campaign. They’ve failed to let anyone else in, people aren’t voting for a concept merely because it appears to come from one party.”
Am also of no speciall allegiance, but marginally pro-indy, and agree fully with this. The promotion of independence as a way to secure “SNP policies” (such as no nuclear power, better NHS, etc), however good they may be is illogical – they can be delivered under devolution. Far better to focus on things that are reserved (such as the monarchy as an issue being used a lot in this debate) and stress the opportunities to do something with new powers. However, it is also important to stress that independence only offers the opportunity to address them – Scots may vote otherwise!
To date, the assumption that independence will result in an SNP (or an SNP-like) Government, with policies that the current SNP would support is an error of both sides. The SNP keep saying “vote yes for …..”, while the unionists keep saying “Salmond must tell us what he’ll do on…..” – don’t they realise that they may be in the first Government of an independent Scotland?!?
#70 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 9:50 pm
There is no way that the SNP or any other party can guarantee the NHS as long as we are in the Union. Long term if the NHS effectively ceases to exist in England, and that is what we are looking at, it will inevitably have a knock-on effect in Scotland not least in terms of funding.
So that is really not a good argument. In fact, protecting the NHS is a key argument for independence in my view.
#71 by R Pollock on May 22, 2012 - 9:01 pm
“Surely any major post-indy constitutional changes would also require a referendum?” Aidan
“However, if the people want a referendum on something, why shouldn’t we have it?” Me. In the post being replied to. Whit?
#72 by alex g on May 22, 2012 - 12:53 pm
i for one would be far happier with a written constitution as i want my rights and my freedoms set down in as close to stone as possible.
successive governments have shown that they will play fast and lose with any and every civil liberty and i, for example, would want my right to vote set down in writing and a clause beneath it saying only a 99% referendum vote can remove it.
we have problems in britain with regards to civil liberties exactly because we do not have a written constitution and the quicker we resolve that the better.
When a government expressly wants to remove britains signature from the european convention for human rights fir example, i want my rights set in stone because frankly i trust very few of our politicians.
#73 by Iain Menzies on May 22, 2012 - 2:05 pm
I cant imagine why but you post makes me want to start reading old soviet constitutions…..
#74 by Doug Daniel on May 22, 2012 - 1:59 pm
Got to agree with R Pollock here, there does seem to be a bit of a whiff of accepting the SNP’s proposal as the official proposal, in a manner of speaking. Any idea if the Greens have made a stab at this? It’d be intriguing to see other people’s versions.
I’d love to see an Icelandic-style crowd-sourced constitution, although I would hope it wasn’t done via Facebook like theirs was – fair enough for a country with a population between those of Edinburgh and Aberdeen, but not for a country of 5 million, with far more outside possibly wanting to chip in too. Straight away, that has me thinking about ensuring the integrity of such a vehicle, and the much higher chances of it being abused by naysayers.
Here’s the thing. You do that process just now, and you get an influx of responses all coming from an IP address in Labour HQ, with people just trying to somehow turn it into a campaigning tool for the union, rather than using it for a serious process. Unionism demands the complete denial not just of the merits of independence, but also the possibility that it will happen. The fact so many can’t even bear to utter the word “independence” and swap it for “separation” instead tells you all you need to know about the chances of getting such people involved in a sensible debate on the constitution. They know fine that to even entertain the idea helps “normalise” the idea of independence, and the more people talk about what kind of independence they want, the less they’re talking about whether they want it at all. The debate turns from “should we be independent?” into “what should post-independent Scotland look like?”
I’m all in favour of getting people to start thinking about things in that way, but you have to balance that against the possibility of, as others have said, looking arrogant – “check them discussing their constitution before we’ve even voted on it. I’m nae voting for that!” Not to mention the possibility of annoying potential yes voters when it becomes clear the particular bees in their bonnets are not being dealt with – could members of the socialist parties throw a strop if socialism is not engrained in the constitution, for example? Finally, there’s the fact that we couldn’t possibly write up a constitution which will likely have been completely boycotted by an unfortunately large subsection of the populous. My evil side would find it hilarious to draw up a constitution that offended every principle of people who vote “no” in the referendum, but it wouldn’t really be fair to exclude them from the process just because they’re wrong on the original premise upon which it was built (i.e. independence).
So I would say: let’s talk about it, and discuss ideas for what we would like to see in a written constitution; but before the referendum, any such documentation could be nothing more than a draft. It would be wrong to draw up a final copy before the referendum and effectively say “when you vote yes, you are voting for this constitution.”
(Although maybe you’re not actually arguing for that as such…)
#75 by AFaulds on May 22, 2012 - 5:09 pm
A written constitution is absolutely essential as far as I’m concerned – primarily because it limits the potential for abuse of power, but also because I cannae hack all these daft traditions Westminster has accumulated over the years (“Hang on a minute, we’ve not actually got a provision allowing you to stand down as an MP… How’s about you take this totally made up job under the crown? Oh you are a Republican? Haw, haw, haw!”) and would rather Holyrood didn’t start to acquire it’s own.
I’d like to see that constitution drawn up by a directly elected constituent assembly – with membership perhaps being half party political and half non-partisan – should we vote Yes. I can understand there might be a great deal of constitutional fatigue amongst the electorate by that point, but I’d like to think the chance to determine the exact shape of your nation’s future might help enthuse people.
Hopefully, the fact that we’d have already voted “yes” and a limit on party participation might allow the assembly to be a bit more radical than would be the case if we did all our constitutional discussions beforehand. Quite aside from bog standard bits on equality, I’d love to see articles declaring Scotland to be nuclear free and non-aggressive – ideally it’d also declare us a republic, but I’d settle for a provision that would call for an automatic referendum on the subject on the death or abdication of auld Lizzie.
Aside from an unwritten constitution, a solely SNP produced constitution is the worst possible outcome – the SNP should be enabling Independence, not dictating what shape it takes. Certainly that doesn’t preclude them having their own views on anything, but they shouldn’t be the only views put forward.
#76 by Edinburgh observer on May 22, 2012 - 7:29 pm
A very thought provoking article and I agree with much of it. A few observations:
1. You rightly quote Elliot Bulmer’s comments on the SNP’s old draft constitution – I agree with these. Like you, I’ve been unable to find an online version of any update, but Elliot has been busy! Here’s a link to his book details: http://www.constitutionalcommission.org/production/byre/images/assets/file/Resources%20Folder/Book%20publicity.pdf. I don’t think what’s presented in it is perfect and it’d need some work/democratic mandate, but its a start.
2. I think the SNP should really recognise this as an issue. It’s no use saying “vote yes, so everything can be better” while also saying “vote yes so it can all be same as we’ve become comfortable with” – it’s becoming a logical oxymoron. The importance of a constitution (written or unwritten – in fact, “unwritten constitions” are still written, they are just written in different ways/many places, such as Acts of Parliament, international treaties/Conventions, internal conventions, etc) should not be underestimated. Virtually every country in the world has a written constitution (see Elliot’s book), and every country that has become independent in the last couple of centuries has one – and that independence process has usually included agreement on how it should be drafted/agreed. Usually, the detailed drafting/agreement comes after independence is agreed in principle, but the process for drafting/agreement is known/promoted beforehand. I think promoting such a process in the event of a yes vote, makes voting yes more attractive.
3. I personally favour, as a citizen, a written constitution as it can enshrine my rights – and thus provides a basis for me (and others, including my successors) to challenge the state where needed, as well as a basis for inter-citzen or citizen-corporate dispute resolution. At present, the unwritten approach is fuzzy on this – and none of the Holyrood Governments of any Party have, despite having powers over the Scots’ legal system, shown the slightest interest in addressing this. The comfort/power of governing without risk of challenge has been held onto, while the the legal system remains thrawn to the proprietorial interests of their friends in the landowning/corporate sectors.
4. James may describe these as policies rather than constitutional matters (and may be right), but as well as advocating a process for deciding and agreeing the constitution, I think a yes campaign would be enhanced by arguing for a “better governed” country in terms of governance. (Indeed, a no campaign would also be enhanced by committing to that under devolution!). Some non-aligned bodies are seeking to promote a debate about governance, see: http://www.scotlink.org/files/publication/LINKReports/LINKGovernanceMatters.pdf.
5. Finally, and not strictly constitutional, we need to be careful in the independence debate to be clear what is a benefit/disbenefit of independence, and what is a matter for the Parliament/Government of the day (indy or devolved) to decide. So, one of Joan MacAlpine’s “reasons for independence” recently was that the “NHS would be safe from privatisation”. Really? Who says that the citizens of an independent Scotland are not allowed to elect a privatising Government? And, assuming – as Joan must – that the electorate of Scotland want to never adopt such a policy, has she not noticed that the NHS is entirely devolved? We may need independence for lots of reasons, but this isn’t one of them. The case for (and against – unionists make just as many daft assertions) should clearly separate constitutional, governance and policy arguments.
6. Although instinctively, but only marginally, drawn to a “yes” vote, I’m already scunnered by the illogical arguments of both sides. These include what I describe above as the ‘oxymoron approach’ of the SNP, as well as the “it will be better if….. ” approach of both sides, when the “better” they refer to is not linked to independence or otherwise. More often, these arguments are simply politicians using something that they think the public want to support what they’d already decided was the means to deliver it (even if it isn’t!). If this continues for two more years, I think I’ll spoil my ballot!
(Apologies if any of the above has been covered in previous comments – haven’t had time to read them all.)
#77 by Doug Daniel on May 23, 2012 - 1:02 am
“And, assuming – as Joan must – that the electorate of Scotland want to never adopt such a policy, has she not noticed that the NHS is entirely devolved? We may need independence for lots of reasons, but this isn’t one of them.”
It’s devolved because Westminster allows it to be. Remember, all devolved powers are effectively “on loan” from Westminster. Not only that, but you’re ignoring the fact that while the powers themselves are devolved, the budgets are not. Every cut England makes to its public services is mirrored by a cut to the Scottish bloc grant. The sole reason we have arguments about university funding, for example, is not because English universities are suddenly going to become better with £9,000 fees, but because those fees are to make up for the massive cuts to the education budget, cuts which are then felt in Scotland, forcing us into a Sophie’s Choice scenario.
Devolution is in some ways equatable to negative liberty – Scotland is free to make whatever choices it wants in terms of health, in the sense that Westminster will not prevent us from doing so, but in reality we’re limited by the budget handed down to us by them, so we’re limited as to what we can realistically do. Independence, on the other hand, is positive liberty – it gives us the resources we need (i.e. full tax & borrowing powers) to allow us to fulfill our needs.
So yes, how we run our NHS is policy, but ensuring we can continue to run it as we see fit spills over into the constitutional side. Hence why things like this, welfare and nuclear weapons – all of which are policy areas – come under arguments for independence: because they represent the fact that independence is about reinforcing Scotland’s ability to make its own decisions.
#78 by Barbarian on May 22, 2012 - 7:31 pm
Well, from what I gather, the constitution for an independent Scotland is basically things will be sorted out once independence is achieved.
That sounds like really good planning…….
Europe – the people will decide. (B*****ks)
Constitution – the people will write it. (See above)
Defence – Scottish Defence Force, details after independence.
Transport – whatever Sir Brian wants.
Public sector – erm………
Media – whatever Rupert says.
Health – we’ll all live longer and be super healthy.
Sorry for being so cynical but we need a bit more substance, rather than a “wait and see” approach. Not suggesting a multi-volume tome full of legal bullshit. But with the constant changing (eg Euro v Sterling) you get the feeling the SNP want to leave that problem aside for the moment.
#79 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 9:59 pm
You will get all of that. My understanding is that there are a whole squad of people beavering away at various policy papers which will be released.
Stand by for two things when that starts to happen.
1. Unionists going bonkers at what they will undoubtably claim is an abuse of the civil service in furthering the wicked separatist agenda. (I am rather looking forward to that myself, Alan Cochrane may actually spontaneously combust).
2. Other people will claim it’s all about the SNP are trying to dictate the terms of the debate.
So it would be good at this stage to get some agreement that a) the SNP/Scottish Government as the main proponent of independence does have an obligation to provide information and options and policy proposals for debate but b) they are not alone in supporting independence and other parties/bodies/groups also have a perfect right to put their proposals on the table as well and indeed should be encouraged to do so.
#80 by John Ruddy on May 22, 2012 - 8:12 pm
The reason this hasnt been discussed is because someone has made the calculation that the discussion will frighten off more people from voting “yes” than it will attract.
Whatever else you might think about Alex Salmond, he’s not completely stupid.
#81 by Indy on May 22, 2012 - 10:02 pm
Just out of interest what do you think about the monarchy John? Are you for or agin it? Or, like me, do you not really care that much one way or the other?
#82 by Matthew Sweeney on May 22, 2012 - 8:23 pm
There is a group dedicated to this very issue the Constitutional Comission. they have a website here
http://www.constitutionalcommission.org/
#83 by Robert Ingram on May 22, 2012 - 10:22 pm
Two years ago the Scottish Democratic Alliance (SDA) started to write a draft Constitution for Scotland. This action was taken after reading the SNP Constitution as it was considered that the proposals by the SNP did not meet what the SDA considered were the expectations of the people of Scotland.
The SDA produced a draft Constitution which was reviewed by the Scottish Constitution Commission and several knowledgeable persons. The results of the review indicated that the SDA proposals were democratically more effective than the SNP proposal but similar to the SNP proposal lacked structure and technical integrity.
The SDA rewrote their proposal and again went through a review process which indicated that there was a marked improvement in technical structure. Again there were a number of issues which required specific detail and expanded coverage.
Based on all previous feedback a third rewrite has been completed and is in the process of review. It is expected that the latest SDA proposal for a Constitution will be available as a discussion document by the third quarter of this year 2012.
#84 by James on May 22, 2012 - 10:27 pm
Robert, I’d be interested to read (and perhaps review) it when it comes out. Could you send the 2nd version to me out of interest?
#85 by James on May 22, 2012 - 10:39 pm
I’ve been sent an interesting piece on this issue, written by Neil McCormick himself. Worth a read.
FWIW, my argument and his overlaps at the end of page 725 and the beginning of 726. Don’t panic, it starts at 721.
#86 by Mike Small on May 22, 2012 - 10:44 pm
Going to a meeting on this very topic tomorrow James. Would be good to discuss with you.
#87 by BM on May 23, 2012 - 6:55 am
Clauses restricting the political activities of “aliens” are (for better or for worse) quite standard. Currently, no “alien” can vote or stand for election to the Westminster Parliament, for example.
#88 by James on May 23, 2012 - 9:08 am
So if the SNP wish to prevent “aliens” standing for Parliament, fine, let them say so: why transpose this bizarre blanket permission to be ‘orrible to foreigners?
#89 by BM on May 23, 2012 - 9:43 am
Maybe that’s the standard legal wording. It’s worth pointing out, too, that phrases like “political activities” also have specific legal definitions, that are not as widely defined as we lay men would interpret them to be.
#90 by James on May 23, 2012 - 9:46 am
Nope. See Peat Worrier’s clearer explanation of this.
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