I’m feeling sunny and optimistic. Let’s assume the question doesn’t get bogged down by the courts or by politics, that the Yes campaign is genuinely cross-party and no-party, that the public will get a chance to write the first constitution for an independent Scotland at some point, and that the referendum succeeds by a clear margin.
The SNP will, on this happy day, have achieved their objective. Admittedly it’s in some ways a simpler objective than any other party – Scotland is either independent or not – but it’d be an extraordinary achievement for a party which in 2003 looked a long way from government, and as recently as the 1980s looked a whole lot further away still.
So what happens next, both for the SNP and for individual SNP members and politicians? Here are some options.
Retire happy. At least one of the SNP’s younger MSPs I know will take this route. Job done. It baffles me that anyone wouldn’t have other political priorities, but it’s consistent. And it certainly makes sense for the older generation. Salmond’s not old by political standards – he’ll turn sixty just after the vote – but it would be a strong point to choose to stand down, and one way to disprove the adage that all political careers end in failure.
Attempt to become Scotland’s answer to the ANC. Sure, the ANC’s struggle was harder to say the least – the Maximum Eck never spent a day in Saughton for political crimes – but parties that fulfil their purpose and deliver radical constitutional change do sometimes try to stay together and stay in power thereafter. The game here is to become the new establishment, but, typically, this way corruption lies.
Join other parties. It’s not hard to see how this might work. The SNP span more or less the whole political spectrum at Holyrood, and they’re held together by a love of winning (no bad thing in a party) plus their primary purpose. Once independence has proved itself to be the settled will of the Scottish people, those who want to stay in politics would surely want to find more consistent ideological bedfellows. This could only happen once the three pro-union parties accept the result and move on. So at that point why wouldn’t Fergus Ewing, John Mason or even John Swinney join a Murdo-esque post-Tory Tories? Might Marco Biagi or Linda Fabiani go Green? Would the soft left of the SNP really not want to work with the Labour types they tend to agree with on non-constitutional matters? If a Lib Dem party still exists at that point, perhaps Michael Russell could lead it? (no offence Michael) edit: I can see now I was wrong about this one 😉
Split into new parties. Obviously this can be combined with the option above. Across Europe party mergers, divorces, and realignments are ten-a-penny. It may not be clear what the empty space looks like, ideologically, but why might we not see something new here?
The membership is another matter. We certainly get plenty of comments here on Better Nation that start “I’m an SNP member now, but post independence I’ll be a.. ” and which typically end “Green” or “Socialist”. Many SNP activists see the party and the government as a means to this single end: they may campaign to elect a local MSP who they rate, but the purpose of that MSP is to vote for the referendum legislation, so that an independent Scotland can be more (insert other objectives here). Do they stay, or if not, where do they go?
The other most interesting question about the SNP’s post-referendum future is where do the brightest and best of the younger generation go, notably future FM candidates like Nicola and Humza? My guess is that both will want to hold the party together and hold onto office, but the membership and leadership have divergent ideologies which could well make that hard. Still, it’s not a bad dilemma to have. And I look forward to a politics where the debates are primarily about an independent Scotland’s economy, social policy, civil liberties and environment, not the constitution. That will be progress.
#1 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 2:19 pm
Well should a referendum win (unlikely) and independence ever happen (unlikelier) then we only have to look at Fianna Fail to see what could happen next.
#2 by James on April 19, 2012 - 2:27 pm
Positivity, comrade! There’ll be room for all in the new Scotland.
Although I agree that Haughey provides another cautionary example, alongside Jacob Zuma.
#3 by Duncan Hothersall (@dhothersall) on April 19, 2012 - 2:33 pm
Of course I don’t think the premise here is realistic – you would expect me to say that – but thinking about it in the abstract does illuminate some things. On one level at least, what happens to the SNP would depend on what sort of independence they defined. If we are talking about a Scotland still in monetary and crown union with the UK, a Continuity SNP could quickly form to push for full independence. Maybe even the rump SNP would become this party. And the notion that our politics could get back to being about non-constitutional issues would be dashed again.
In reality the only way we will return to a focus on what matters, rather than lines on a map, will be when Scotland votes no. But I fear we’ll not get the chance to vote on anything any time soon.
#4 by Daniel J on April 19, 2012 - 3:08 pm
I think this comment is a little bit harsh. Suffice to say I think you’re wrong to suggest that politics in an independent Scotland wouldn’t focus on the people.
Equally I could say we can never focus on what matters while the SNP and Labour put partisanship over policy, but I wouldn’t want to make assumptions based on my prejudices now would I?
#5 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 3:31 pm
That rather assumes that the SNP as a whole would accept a no vote and pipe down on the whole indy thing for a good while…..how much money do you want to be putting on that?
#6 by Doug Daniel on April 19, 2012 - 3:43 pm
“In reality the only way we will return to a focus on what matters, rather than lines on a map, will be when Scotland votes no.”
This, in a nutshell, is why Labour don’t understand independence, and typifies why Labour are years away from rediscovering their mojo.
#7 by James on April 19, 2012 - 3:56 pm
You’re both off topic here. Please let’s trim the slanging down.
#8 by Robert Blake on April 19, 2012 - 8:41 pm
But it isn’t just lines on the map is it?
It’s about Social policy, health policy, education and an addiction to Nuclear Weapons.
In the UK, Labour doesn’t believe it has any duty to the poor, Tom Harris MP told us that during his leadership campaign. The Tories are cutting Council Tax benefit.when the SNP tried to reform the system with a Local Income Tax, Labour told the SNP they would penalise benefit recipients
The SNP is going to do what it can to protect recipients of that CT benefit cut
Labour is as committed as the Tories to having Private involvement in Health, they voted on a Westminster motion on that topic.
The SNP believe in a public health service
Labour & Tories want to mortgage generations through PFI
The SNP see this as a bad idea
Labour & the Tories are committed to a new Nuclear weapons system
Scots are against that
Labour & the Tories want Nuclear power stations where all the liability is on the public purse
66% of Scots quite lie Wind Power
If the English vote for Labour, Tories & LibDem who are virtually indistinguishable, then surely it is best for all if those troublesome Scots set things up to suit themselves.
Sounds eminently reasonable
#9 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 2:53 pm
The SNP aren’t going to fold up are they? There will be plenty of grievances with England, sorry London, to deal with and stoke up. The unfairness of the final settlement (no matter how fair it is or not) will be stoked up and used to blame any shortcomings. The other main parties who did not speak up for Scotland will be decried as untrustworthy and quislings who will not stand up to unfair England, sorry, London.
Brian Souter will want s28 restored, the Cardinal will want restrictions on abortion rights and Jim McColl will want 10% corporation tax: students will want tuition fees abolished. Who else is going to meet all these promises or at least find a scapegoat for not doing so? We will need our our own revenue and customs to write off Rangers’ tax bill and we will want a sovereign wealth fund to invest in them.
#10 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 2:55 pm
I can’t even think of 10 constituencies in Scotland where a yes vote in a referendum is likely. Can you?
#11 by James on April 19, 2012 - 2:56 pm
Well, the whole of the North-east for a starter. But we’re a bit off topic here.
#12 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 3:33 pm
the SNP got less than 44% in Banff and Buchan in 2010, wikipedia doesnt list the greens or SSP, so thats 44% for indy…..tis rough maths that but would suggest not the whole north east.
#13 by Doug Daniel on April 19, 2012 - 4:18 pm
I wouldn’t rely on the 2010 election for stats – otherwise we’ll be predicting a Labour landslide in the council elections. Bear in mind that this is the region which, despite giving all 10 constituency seats to the SNP in 2011, still voted in enough numbers to elect a list SNP MSP. The North-East is to the SNP as Glasgow used to be for Labour, and the farming communities in Aberdeenshire are exactly the kind of place you’ll find the lesser-spotted right-leaning independence supporter.
#14 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 4:38 pm
I wouldnt rely on the 2011 stats 😉
Tho i am forever hearing about how savvy the scottish voter is and that they understand the differences between elections. Which would suggest we cant take anything from either.
Except that we will take the stats that help us and ignore those that dont 😉
#15 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 3:06 pm
Given that 48% of Aberdeenshire District, 49% of Perthshire and 47% of Angus voted against giving the devolved parliament tax raising powers in 1997??? You think so?
#16 by James on April 19, 2012 - 3:11 pm
Seriously, we’re off topic. Also, a lot’s changed since 1997. Just look at the FPTP map of Holyrood.
#17 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 3:36 pm
the 2010 election paints a different picture.
The SNP got less than 50% even in 2011, and at least 10% of the total SNP vote wont go for indy.
#18 by Don McC on April 19, 2012 - 7:25 pm
And how many of the non SNP vote would?
#19 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 9:50 pm
well according to every reputable opinion poll…..between 60% and 70% of scots would vote for the union.
#20 by James on April 19, 2012 - 9:53 pm
Quick! Get your house on it! Betting against Salmond’s always a good idea.
#21 by Iain Menzies on April 20, 2012 - 12:24 am
Cos he was dead right with the whole ‘free by ’93’ thing….
#22 by Jon Blackwood on April 19, 2012 - 3:08 pm
In the event of independence, having worked so hard to achieve it, I’ll be astonished if the SNP just breaks up. It’s a really interesting article, lacking only the “steady as she goes” option, which IMO is the most likely.
Of your list, the “steady as she goes” option is closest to the “ANC-lite” possibility you mention above. That, post-independence, the party will lose its more radical members elsewhere, but there will be a stolid middle ground ready to continue as normal. And that solid middle ground will be arguing for the flat tax neo-liberal option post-independence. A kind of Scottish equivalent of Pro Patria & res Publica in Estonia, if you will.
If the less likely possibility of “steady as she goes” is enacted- some kind of late 1980s Kinnockite social democratic stance- then i can see the Mike Russells and Swinneys of this world joining a post-Tory right wing Scottish formation (whatever that would be). But only in those circumstances.
#23 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 3:15 pm
I think the SNP will stay together and sort out their differences internally. A few of the SNP refugees from Labour may head further into left-wing politics – SSP/solidarity – in order to fight for socialism, but most will be happy in a vaguely left party doling out oil money for worthy causes without frightening big business.
And so we will be left with a re-enactment of FF/FG.
Another good reason to vote NO…
#24 by Ken on April 19, 2012 - 3:25 pm
If independence means a continuation of links to the UK (fiscal/monetary/Crown/Commonwealth etc) then to me a Fianna Fáil / Sinn Féin split is likely, with the remaining rump advocating a full decoupling, from the EU too.
#25 by Craig on April 19, 2012 - 3:39 pm
I’ve said it via twitter and I’ll say it again, this is a great article.
It’s obviously based on a hypothetical so I don’t think we should distract ourselves with talk of what areas would support independence etc. An equally interesting piece would look at what becomes of the other parties in an independent Scotland. Get writing, James.
#26 by Doug Daniel on April 19, 2012 - 3:40 pm
Just to balance out some of the first comments, WHEN Scotland
wins the referendumvotes in favour of independence, I would imagine the SNP will keep going in its current form for at least the first term, with all the Westminster SNP MPs arriving in Holyrood, which would mean automatic ministerial roles for Stewart Hosie and the two Angii (Angus R being Defence Minister, Angus M being minister for rural affairs, Hosie being chief secretary to the treasury or something). I expect Salmond to stay on as the first Prime Minister, before handing the reins to Nicola, at which stage we might start seeing some of the other big guns deciding they think they’d be better leaders and, realising the path is pretty much set, either joining other parties, or splitting off into their own group. Then again, it’s easy to overstate the breadth of the SNP church – who would have thought Tom Harris and Malcolm Chisholm were from the same party? Or Ken Clarke and Peter Bone?More importantly, I’d hope we’d see a far bigger presence from the Greens, the SSP back, and Murdo creating that centre-right party we all know he should be leading. In fact, the Tories are probably on course to be the most stable of the three unionist parties since they only have one Westminster MP to find a job for, and I can’t see them bothering, to be honest.
What of Labour? With a mass of Labour MPs suddenly surplus to requirements, they either stick with Labour and try to find constituencies in England, or they come up to the “diddy” parliament and try to make a go of things here. It’s not inconceivable that we’d find the more hardline unionist amongst them refusing to accept independence and try to convince Scotland to rejoin the union – I’m thinking Ian Davidson and his ilk here – and thus remaining as some sort of unofficial Scottish branch of the Labour party (which some would argue is already the case, in a manner of speaking). Having just gotten rid of us subsidy junkies, are English voters really going to take kindly to Scottish MPs trying to keep their job at the expense of English candidates? I don’t know. The more careerist of them (hello Mr Harris) will just join whichever party is most likely to gain power but isn’t the SNP. Presumably their Holyrood bunch would become an actual Scottish Labour party and continue to wave things around.
The Lib Dems, meanwhile, could just become completely surplus to requirements. Then again, they may almost have ceased to exist by the time of independence anyway. Tavish could join Murdo’s new party perhaps, if Murdo is mad enough to accept him.
Here’s one thought though. Supposing the SNP dissolves, to whatever extent, and all the big hitters are spread throughout the parties. They’ll surely become the leading lights in all those parties. Would we then see the politics we’ve all been waiting for, as MSPs find it impossible to bicker with people they only recently celebrated their greatest victory with, and instead opt for proper, grown-up politics?
(Obviously the answer is “no, because they’re politicians”, but it’s nice to dream…)
#27 by Malc on April 19, 2012 - 3:44 pm
Doug
I think you need the disclaimer “assuming the SNP wins the first post-independence election”
#28 by Doug Daniel on April 19, 2012 - 4:21 pm
Indeed, although I was assuming the line “I would imagine the SNP will keep going in its current form for at least the first term” summed up that sentiment! I’m not entirely sure why I thought that though, now that I’ve re-read it…
#29 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 3:51 pm
We should wait until after the vote to keep the Yes vote respectable.
#30 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 3:54 pm
Balance? lol
Anyway….where you gonna find seats for those who are in Westminster? Assuming, that Hosie stays in the SNP, where is there a seat near to dundee that a) isnt SNP already and b)has an MSP that will walk away without a fight.
The SNP question isnt where do we put people, tho, it is how do we stay together.
The labour party would, i think, swing to the left. Possibly being an actual (is softish) socialist party. Thats a position that could work well in the west, and would give them a base to build on.
The tory vote cant go anywhere but (at some point) up.
And i think you seriously overstate the long term difficulties for the Lib Dems. Saying they would be surplus to requirements is abit odd when the SNP (which says nothing about anything other than indy that isnt said by someone else) would have to refind its core purpose.
Also, just look at the longer term history of the Liberal party. They almost died once, but they didnt.
#31 by Doug Daniel on April 19, 2012 - 4:25 pm
I meant balance as in providing the counter triumphalist voice for the “yes” vote that Duncan and Chris (oh especially Chris) are providing for the “no” side. Like when you balance out a see-saw that has a fat kid sitting on it by dumping another fat kid on the other side. Of course, rather than actually balancing it, you break the see-saw.
Ho hum…
#32 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 4:39 pm
We totally need more see-saws in Holyrood.
#33 by Iain Menzies on April 19, 2012 - 3:42 pm
See this could have been fun, but there are two massive problems with your fantasy (i dont mean that in a nasty way, but be honest this IS a fantasy)
First is….well its not gonna be a yes.
Second is….not what the SNP will do, but where would they be post indy.
For my money, if its a yes vote (which it aint) then the good money is on the SNP forming the first Scottish Government.
Thats when things get really interesting, as once you have taken away the unifying factor but you still have power….how do you maintain party control in the chamber?
Would you start seeing more left wing minsiters briefing the press in the run up to a budget if they dont like the way swinney is heading with the budget (much like the lib dems do now).
In fact the dynamics of the coalition may well be the best judge of how the internal dynamics of at least the parliamentary SNP would conduct themselves.
Now if your implications about the unity of the SNP without the prospect of indy is right, what you then get is a first scottish government that is fundamentally unstable. Which would be fun to watch, if your south of the border, not so much up here.
#34 by Hugh Jarse on April 19, 2012 - 4:24 pm
A more interesting and challenging piece would be to write about the most likely scenario – what next for the SNP after a NO Vote. But hey why tax yourself with a complex scenario when you can just publish some SNP spin. More succulent lamb guys.
#35 by James on April 19, 2012 - 4:27 pm
Your username is bang on. I’m a Green, not an SNP member, and setting out how the SNP might split up is hardly propaganda. But I have got one coming on what next after a NO vote, as it happens.
#36 by Doug Daniel on April 19, 2012 - 4:34 pm
What’s with the complete inability of unionists to even contemplate that Scotland might vote yes and consider what would happen afterwards? It’s slightly disturbing in all truth, and it jars with the doomsday scenarios that are often brought up about what would happen if we became independent.
Surely the “no” vote isn’t so fragile that to even pontificate on post-independence scenarios would have folk running over to the “yes” side?
#37 by Commenter on April 19, 2012 - 4:31 pm
The SNP would become (remain) the centre-left (lol sorry James xx) party.
It would shed members to other parties.
There might be schisms.
#38 by Hugh Jarse on April 19, 2012 - 4:54 pm
I can contemplate a Yes or No vote and the ramifications that will bring. I also look forward to your piece on what a NO vote would look like. I assume I’m allowed to mention a No vote on here without getting a personal attack?
#39 by Chris Fyfe on April 19, 2012 - 5:11 pm
I am happy to pontificate.
I think a rather triumphalist SNP will be rather unpleasant to contemplate. They will be very quick to condemn the other parties as traitors for holding back independence (forgetting that until that moment there had never been a majority for it).
The tensions in the SNP will not be extreme. There will be a clear role for a tory party to emerge as the only remaining party of the right. There will be a clear role for Labour to return to class politics (I wish, I wish) and not retreat into catholic burrows (I expect, I expect). There will also be a role for a party of empty managerialism who don’t want to be too political in your face, so even the Lib Dems won’t die.
The battle ground for the new Scotland will be that centre-ground that starts in Cumbernauld and finishes in Methil. IE the skilled working class votes without sectarian tinges.
There you are I have pontificated
#40 by Indy on April 19, 2012 - 5:21 pm
I’m glad you have posted on this cos I was actually going to comment on your other posting before you shut comments down because they were boring. They were a bit boring so fair enough – my comments will of course be as scintillating as ever!
It was when you were talking about someone saying when independence happens job done and you couldn’t understand that. I feel a bit like that myself – I won’t lose all interest in politics of course, but neither will I feel obliged to put everything else on the back burner. As it is I have just come in from canvassing, checking my emails and grabbing a quick bite before I go back out again at 6 and that’s the way it will be for the next 2 weeks I am on annual leave. So that I can work lol.
The analogy I would use here is with the suffragettes. I will start by making it absolutely clear that I don’t think the campaign for independence is the same as the campaign for women’s votes – I am not making that comparison. Clearly modern Scotland is a democracy, no-one has to fight for the right to vote so that’s not the comparison I am making. The comparison is more along the lines of what suffragettes probably said when people asked them well, what about after women get the vote, what do you think will happen then – cos I reckon a lot of them would have said dunno, cos when we get the vote that will be the job done.
It was a campaign to get women the vote – when women got the vote it was up to them what they did with it. In the same way, once independence is won it will be up to Scottish voters to decide what to do with it.
It’s really not an obsession based on flags and whatnot. In my case I joined the SNP in the mid 1980s. I was flitting up and down from London at the time and when I joined the SNP it was like doing something completely preposterous. People actually laughed in your face if you said you had joined the SNP. They made jokes about you going home every night and putting on an Arran jumper and listening to the Corries. There’s still something of the same attitude among some folk but to a much lesser extent.
To be honest a lot of what kept me in the SNP during the grim years in the 80s/90s – and they were grim – was just stubborness. But the experience of those years of Tory rule absolutely reinforced why I wanted independence.
I don’t have any idea what will happen after independence politically and I actually find that quite exciting. But what I know for sure is that Scotland will never again be governed by a party that lost the election.
#41 by Indy on April 19, 2012 - 5:31 pm
My own experience, by the way, is one of the reasons I think people are quite daft to say of course Scotland won’t vote for independence. They fail to see how far down that road we have already travelled! We have gone from a situation where the SNP was just one step above the Monster Raving Loony Party and independence a preposterous joke to the situation we are in now. If you look at it as a journey along a path we’re actually closer to the end point now than we are to the beginning. It’s strange that has happened without some people even noticing!
#42 by Don McC on April 19, 2012 - 10:18 pm
That’s the thing I find so unbelievable, that there are still so many onionists who are supremely confident that there are no circumstances under which Scotland will vote Yes in the coming referendum. It’s either a case of the Ostrich dance or Noel Edmond’s idea of cosmic ordering has had a big influence in their lives.
Scots MAY vote No. It’s by no means a certainty. That being the case, people should have entered in the spirit of the debate started by James instead of it descending into “it’s a’ pie in the sky, willnae happen” naysaying from the balconies. At least Waldorf and Statler could be funny with their negativity.
#43 by James on April 19, 2012 - 10:56 pm
Thanks Don.
#44 by Iain Menzies on April 20, 2012 - 12:27 am
We unionists (being kind hearted souls) are just trying to prepare you for the day of the results when it all comes crashing down so you wont feel so bad. Were nice like that.
(Also we then get to say TOLD YOU SO! in a really annoying way)
#45 by Barbarian on April 19, 2012 - 7:46 pm
I think what will happen is that the SNP will break up over Europe.
Despite promises, a referendum on Europe won’t happen. I’m willing to bet my house on that.
I’m being cynical, but all to date we have had is a utopian vision of an independent Scotland at the heart of Europe. Yet what will be the state of Europe in two years time?
I fear that if independence is achieved, full integration with the EU will go ahead, with lame excuses coming out of Government. Then once we are in, it will be a case of “sorry, can’t change now”.
If there is one policy that will derail independence, it is the current one on Europe. The SNP need to change or at least be absolutely clear where they stand.
And I think Hugh Jarse (nice name, reminds me of a colleague) has a valid point. What happens if there is a “No” to independence?
#46 by Indy on April 19, 2012 - 9:57 pm
1. A referendum on Europe hasn’t been SNP policy since about 1989.
2. The EU is no more of an issue for the SNP than for any other party so why would it lead to the breakup of the party?
3. If there is a no to independence in all likelihood nothing will happen.
#47 by Allan on April 19, 2012 - 8:19 pm
Already touched on this in a previous post, but I suspect that the SNP will break up along left/right axis if they achieve a yes vote.
Sure I suspect that they will attempt to become Scotland’s answer to the ANC. The problem with that is two-fold. Firstly there are pro-business politicians in the same party as those of a left of centre nature, a measure of Slamond’s success in creating MacNew Labour. Once independence has been achieved, I find it dificult that those politicians would not drift towards a sort of “default” position.
Secondly, policies espoused by the “pro-Business” wing of the SNP (10% Corporation Tax, flat tax rates) are not that popular with a still left of centre electorate. There’s any number of issues that the split could occur, but I think that one will happen. What will be interesting though will be what fills the vacum on the left (assuming “Scottish” Labour choose to remain a centre-right wing party)?
http://humbug3.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/after-referendum.html
#48 by Don Francisco on April 19, 2012 - 8:31 pm
My thoughts are that it would diminish, and coalesce around a group of issues somewhere on the political spectrum. The idea that it would break up seems unlikely – it’s a organisation and a successful one, someone will take it and use it.
I suppose there’s always the possibility that it could turn into Scottish New Labour – bereft of purpose but still with a ‘core’ vote. My personal thought is that it will go in the direction it’s primary benefactors & donors want, and any leader of the party would be on the backbenches very quickly if they didn’t comply (like any other party then).
#49 by FormerChampagneSocialist on April 19, 2012 - 10:41 pm
Type your comment here
“succulent lamb”?! WTF are you on about?!
#50 by douglas clark on April 19, 2012 - 11:31 pm
If, I repeat if, the SNP appear to have the best policies after independence, then it is obvious we will vote for them. If we don’t think that, then we will find our own road. That’s your new found democracy for you!
James wants a split, and that is why he has written this post.
This would be the same James that found comments ‘boring’ before and shut a thread down.
Perhaps this has happened before, but I do not recall it.
#51 by James on April 19, 2012 - 11:38 pm
Don’t make me link to the dull Yoonyonist vs Nationalist slanging match to which you refer.
And what I want is a democratic and independent Scotland that debates the issues I care about.
#52 by Indy on April 20, 2012 - 9:53 am
Agreed
#53 by douglas clark on April 20, 2012 - 12:36 am
James,
If you want this:
You can’t say this:
Frankly, shutting that down that wasn’t one of your better moments.
You know what you have to do.
#54 by James on April 20, 2012 - 1:01 am
That makes no sense.
And we’ll close down threads whenever we get bored of them. This one approacheth that moment too, ironically. If you don’t like it, you are always free to obtain your own blog. We’re not a nationalised industry, more’s the pity.
#55 by BaffieBox on April 20, 2012 - 6:47 am
I certainly fall into the “Im an SNP member now, but post-independence Id be a…”…. floating voter. Hopefully. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than being a member of no party and being able to support any party I want depending on the issues of the day. The mixing bowl of opinion in the SNP only remains in unison with independence as their glue… the only way it would remain stable is for Scottish politics to continue it’s unedifying descent into tribal politics: for as long as we have Scottish Labour in it’s current form, we’ll have the SNP in it’s current form.
Hopefully, all the big parties fold in on themselves. They’d be doing themselves and their country a huge favour by starting again, forgetting the bitterness and the grudges, and forming new allegiances for a new Scotland. We’ll hopefully never see Scottish Labour or the SNP again.
It’s one of those critical mass/event horizon moments: we need the weight of change to be so great, that they all go, or none of them will. The latter would be a pretty depressing start to an independent Scotland IMO.
#56 by James on April 20, 2012 - 8:42 am
Interesting. But I’m not sure why Labour would implode, given they wouldn’t need to fight on the constitution any more. It seems more likely that, with the root of their current stress gone, they would become less tribal. I know, I’m sunny and optimistic all the way round this week.
#57 by Angus McLellan on April 20, 2012 - 11:29 am
Labour is not the SGP. If the vote is Yes there would be a perfect storm brewing.
Labour needs money and won’t run on idealism and volunteering. Where would the money come from after Separation Day? Labour is not used to losing, not yet anyway.. Denial is palpable as we see in comments here and elsewhere. The shock would be massive. And Labour’s big hitters would all just have got the news that their P45’s are on the way. Ready with the ferrets and the sack?
#58 by Chris on April 20, 2012 - 8:42 am
If a yes vote does happen, “independence” won’t occur the next day. Surely the basis to setup Scotland as a internationally recognised entity will take 18 months plus. To disengage Scotland’s infrastructure from rUK will take several / many years and how this happens could have a profound effect on both parties. I would hope that the SNP would continue to exist in close to current form until the latter is close to completion.
#59 by Chris Fyfe on April 20, 2012 - 9:51 am
In terms of getting my retaliation in first this piece did look like yet another preposterous what happens when ‘we’ win discussion.
I think the charge made against the No camp (we are not all unionists you know) about not contemplating losing the vote can equally be made against the Yes camp. The Scottish blogosphere is stuffed with beard-stroking analysis of what an independent Scotland would look like. Given that you chose to lead with yet another bout of beard-strokery I think it was fair comment to challenge it.
Now if you had chosen to lead with a positive article about how Scotland or the SNP would look after a No vote it would have been more interesting. It would be very easy to write an article about how terribly shite life would be.
#60 by James on April 20, 2012 - 1:47 pm
That certainly does sound positive.