It’s only the second time round for STV council elections, and the first time they’ve been decoupled from the Scottish Parliament elections so people are still figuring out how this works. On The Doors(tm) there’s still a degree of uncertainty amongst the electorate about how this works so the parties (and the Electoral Commission) are providing guidance. Fair enough, however some of the parties are asking people to only vote for their candidates and to not continue ranking candidates further down.
It’s fairly obvious why you would want first, second and third preferences for your parties candidates and why different candidates are asking for first preferences in different bits of the ward. It’s no good getting a ton of transfers if you’re knocked out early on due to a lack of first preferences, though the practicalities of that and some of the second order effects it has have strengthened my view that we should switch to Condorcet instead.
I genuinely don’t understand the “please don’t vote for any other candidates after those of party X” though. It’s not like there will be fewer councillors elected if someone doesn’t make quota. Since a voters preferences are only redistributed to other parties once the candidates are elected or eliminated it doesn’t detract from them. Unless there’s a general fear that SNP voters might continue down their preferences and then start ranking Labour candidates and vice versa – the visceral, spiteful antipathy that some members of those two parties have for each other is rarely shared by voters afterall – I can’t see the point. Is that it? Is it a hope that it marginally improves the chances of a more palatable Green or Lib Dem or Tory candidate filling those seats?
Seems daft to me. Personally, I’ll be using all my preferences until I’m forced to work out who I like least out of UKIP, the Scottish Unionist Party and the Scottish Christian Party.
#1 by No_Offence_Alan on April 17, 2012 - 1:53 pm
Well, one point of not encouraging further transfers is to minimise the risk of the voter making a mistake and invalidating the whole ballot.
It is also a general rule of politics, often forgotten by the most partisan, is that you should never name-check an opponent.
#2 by Stuart on April 17, 2012 - 2:03 pm
But surely asking for someone to only vote for 1 party defeats the purpose of the PR- that it minimises you’re vote being wasted. and it will be wasted if it doesn’t transfer to anything/anyone.
True I’ll never vote for the BNP, but might I spare some sympathy with other people/politicians in parties that are not my own? I hope the public do understand it a bit more than you’ve made out, they seemed to have it rammed down their throat enough during the AV referendum.
#3 by Aidan on April 17, 2012 - 2:06 pm
It comes up a fair bit when canvassing. Using 3 different systems is quite problematic, at least it’s not being done at the same time…
#4 by Phil Hunt on April 18, 2012 - 9:59 pm
It does. I always tell voters who’re thinking of voting for me 2nd, that if instead they vote for me first, if I’m knocked out (as I probably will be), their vote automatically transfers to their 2nd choice, so they are making their vote work twice as hard.
If Europe was elected via STV instead of d’Hondt in closed lists, that would reduce the number of systems used. The added advantage is that STV is a better system.
#5 by Aidan on April 18, 2012 - 10:09 pm
We’d still be using d’Hondt on closed lists for Holyrood though. :/ The Arbuthnott report did recommend we switch to open lists for that though, and consider STV at the next elections but that seems to have been shelved.
BTW, couldn’t help noticing the domain on this comment – am I right in thinking you used to kick about a.g/u.p.g back when usenet was still a thing?
#6 by Angus McLellan on April 19, 2012 - 1:00 am
We’ll end up with STV at Holyrood some day. I hope.
And on an unrelated matter, many thanks for tweeting that Coursera link. (That’s http://www.coursera.org/ – well worth a look.)
#7 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 2:32 pm
I’ve become less enamoured with STV recently, because it doesn’t guarantee proportionality, which I consider to be more important than ensuring “every” vote counts (which can only ever be possible if an election literally comes down to the last vote). The SNP are only putting up one candidate in my ward, which means the absolute maximum number of SNP councillors my ward can elect is 33.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333% of the total. But it’s perfectly conceivable that they’ll get more than that number of 1st preference votes. In fact, they could get 100% of 1st preferences, and still only elect one councillor. If that happened, you’ve effectively got 66.66666666666666666666666666666666666666% of the councillors in the ward being people that the electorate just considered to be the least rubbish. What an accolade!
Preference voting works when you’re trying to work out which person the electorate find to be the most acceptable (or least objectionable). In other words, it works for single member constituencies. I have three councillors, but only really one vote. Something about that seems inherently unfair. If I’m to be represented by three councillors, give me three separate votes, and allow me to vote for who I want, not who I think is least rubbish. Otherwise, make it proportional.
Parties are required to only put up as many candidates as they think they can comfortably win, in order to avoid candidates cancelling each other out. I don’t like that, it smacks of trying to second-guess how the vote will go. It removes the possibility for a party to win an unexpected landslide, and keeps things one election behind at all times. A party should not be punished for trying to get all three/four seats in a ward.
As usual, Sweden have the right idea. Open lists using the St-Laguë method. They ensure proportionality as everyone’s vote counts towards the party they actually support, and it allows the voter to get rid of rubbish candidates who are perhaps popular within the party but unpopular outside it. Who says every vote should count? If I want to vote for Lt. Col. Kojak Slaphead III of the Bald Brummies Against The Big Footed Conspiracy Party and end up being the only person that does, then surely that’s what I get for voting for a party that was incapable of getting anyone else’s vote? Proportionality is far more important than individual votes being wasted, because the current system means up to 66.666666666666666666% of the electorate aren’t really electing who they want to anyway.
Incidentally, the STV pamphlet my house got from the electoral commission doesn’t even explain it properly. I can’t remember what was wrong with it exactly, but I remember thinking that if I didn’t already understand how STV works, I wouldn’t fully understand it from that pamphlet.
#8 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 2:36 pm
Obviously that last 66.66666666666666666666666666666% should actually be a less exciting 75%, since it could also occur in four-member wards…
#9 by James on April 17, 2012 - 2:38 pm
There are problems, and STV as offered isn’t proportional, but going to 1-member wards (or 3-member 3-vote FPTP) just aggravates them. The solution is larger wards, maybe even as many as 8 or 10 Cllrs per ward. Incidentally, that’s not self-interest, I think for the Greens right now probably 5 or 6 would be optimum. And I personally don’t feel slightly huffy about not electing more than one Cllr (or potentially two MSPs) – I’m just delighted to see it when, like last time, I gave my first preference to help elect a first-class Green Cllr. The rest mattered a lot less, although I was disappointed that the most egregious of the LDs made it in. Not again, though..
#10 by Stuart on April 17, 2012 - 2:48 pm
I don’t think 8-10 member wards could work- you have to have some form of localism!!
#11 by Daniel J on April 17, 2012 - 7:55 pm
I wouldn’t necessarily equate having smaller wards with localism and representation.
Personally I’d quite like to move more power away from the council down to community groups and similar, so that perhaps having bigger wards wouldn’t mater.
#12 by Iain Menzies on April 17, 2012 - 2:59 pm
I think you are wrong about larger wards.
I think there are only two viable options.
1) a return to FPTP. But its non viable as politicos (mostly) wont stand for it, tho i think the wider public would be more in favour.
2) Abolition of wards and STVB for whole councils.
I dont like closed lists because it places too much control in the hands of political parties.
i dont like open lists because you end up (especially in large wards) with the public having to pick between a large number of candidates most of whom they will know nothing about.
A problem with option two is the ‘ward-link’, or lack there of but having never in almost 30 years of life had reasons to get in touch with a councillor, or known anyone in my family who did, other than at school prize giving i dont care all that much about that.
#13 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 3:38 pm
STV places almost as much control in the hands of the parties. For example, Aberdeen’s council leader is in a ward with a sizeable SNP support. However, he’s the only SNP candidate, because obviously parties need to make damn sure their leader isn’t ousted by a fellow party candidate by mistake. Obviously the same can be said of parties putting their leader in safe seats in FPTP elections too.
The sooner we move to online voting, the better!!!
#14 by Iain Menzies on April 17, 2012 - 4:11 pm
HOw does online voting help anything?
#15 by Aidan on April 17, 2012 - 4:30 pm
Fortunately Condorcet would help avoid that.
#16 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 4:48 pm
Iain – online voting would help because you would just select the party you want, and then get a screen of their candidates to rank. Nice and simple. The main criticism of open lists seems to be the idea that voters are presented with a wad of paper rather than one sheet, so that would sort that.
In fact, you wouldn’t even need online voting, just electronic voting booths.
Aidan – Condorcet has problems too though, it can break the Later no harm criterion.
Basically, we think about elections in terms of which party won or lost, and we’re a party democracy (and for good reason). I think it’s time we just admitted that and stopped trying to pretend that people vote for individuals instead of parties, and elect people accordingly.
#17 by Iain Menzies on April 17, 2012 - 5:27 pm
Hmmm…i would be wary of electronic voting booths.
Online voting is a no no i think, not least because not everyone has an internet connection.
You also have the problem of putting some people in the position where they cannot vote in secret.
And lets face it if we all did it at home you would upset all those school kids who wont get a day off school…..this may not be the best reason against such a system tho.
I dont entirely agree with your last point. My first oppertunity (in a labour seat) was a spoilt ballot, i knew my party had no hope of winning but i refused to vote for someone whos listed address wasnt even within 80 miles of the constituency.
At the holyrood election, my constit vote went SNP, after originally planning on voting Labour. The party affiliation was only one aspect of my reasoning process. Different people vote for different people for different reasons.
#18 by Ken on April 18, 2012 - 11:58 am
I’d be a bit cautious of electronic voting given the experience in Ireland where we learned that the good old pencil and paper is much more cost effective. No system is totally secure from fraud but if there’s an outstanding argument for the introduction of e voting then I’m still open to be convinced.
If the complaint is that there’s a wad of paper in front of you when you vote, then I’m sorry but that just sounds like #firstworldproblems to me. People will get over it.
“Basically, we think about elections in terms of which party won or lost, and we’re a party democracy (and for good reason). I think it’s time we just admitted that and stopped trying to pretend that people vote for individuals instead of parties, and elect people accordingly.”
I think that’s a bit simplistic and from a longstanding user of STV, to me that seems like a hangover of FPTP. In my experience STV is very much a mix of individual personality and party preferences.
#19 by Doug Daniel on April 18, 2012 - 4:05 pm
Well, I just think that if Estonia can do it, there’s no reason why we can’t at least look into it. It’ll happen one day, although I fear the 2007 debacle put a lot of people off having any from of electronic/automated process involved in even counting votes, so we’ll probably be one of the last countries to move away from pencil and paper.
We should at least investigate if it would help increase turnout and decrease spoiled ballots.
#20 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 3:29 pm
I wasn’t wanting FPTP in any form incidentally; I was meaning three STV votes, which would be almost unworkable, and which is kind of my point – STV just doesn’t do the job and would need even more complexity to do so. Larger wards would indeed perhaps do it, though it still wouldn’t be proportional.
I’ll be giving my second preference to the local Green candidate, but I don’t think she stands a chance unfortunately – my ward is pretty evenly split (despite what I was moaning about), so it’ll likely be SNP, Labour and Lib Dem (he’s one of those rare things – a fairly popular Lib Dem!) Even the Tories will probably finish ahead of the Greens, since my area has elected politicians from all four of the other parties over the last 20 years or so.
3/4 member wards just ensures a hegemony amongst the top four parties. But my main problem is the fact that, like AV, people probably call STV “proportional”, when it’s nothing of the sort, or at least not by design.
#21 by Kieran on April 17, 2012 - 8:17 pm
The four member wards in Glasgow are huge, mine has over 30,000 people in it. I would oppose plans to make the wards larger. Having more Councillors in each ward could work.
#22 by Aidan on April 17, 2012 - 8:53 pm
I’m in the largest ward in Scotland (Partick West, 26k electoral roll) so sympathise with that 😉
There’s definitely a trade off to be made between proportionality and directness of link. More councillors per ward without increasing ward size is a tough sell though – does Glasgow really need 100 councillors?
#23 by Phil Hunt on April 18, 2012 - 10:14 pm
If the SNP thought they could win more, they’d run more candidates. So in practise this isn’t a real limitation.
I have been to candidates’ meetings where electoral commission literature was handed out that described STV wrongly. It isn’t that complex a system! I’ve described it in 3 paragraphs.
#24 by Gryff on April 17, 2012 - 3:12 pm
I have a lot of respect for the candidate who put a leaflet through our door asking for a first or second preference vote. ‘If you cannot give me your first preference, please put a 2 by my name for your second preference.’ whilst it gave the whole thing a slightly sad pleading note, it did at least show some evidence of understanding how STV worked (and respecting the voters ability to use it), rather than acting like the numbers were just for funsies.
#25 by Ben Achie on April 17, 2012 - 3:58 pm
The local authority ward sizes are probably just about the right balance in terms of size, although in sparsly populated areas they are too big. The outcome is reasonably proportional and retains a geographic identity.
Any advice on voting for other parties form another party is will be based on the likely outcome in terms of numbers of members elected for each, e.g. where two parties are likely to combine to the exclusion of a third, then the third party will propose giving your further vote to candidate other than one of theirs.
The voters are not daft, and very quickly grasped the concept when first used in 2007 in a general election. The huge majority of the problems caused then were due to bad design of the ballot paper for the regional list by the Electoral Commission.
#26 by Max on April 17, 2012 - 6:56 pm
I say NO to electronic voting booths or online voting.
You need a paper trail to avoid manipulation and maintain trust. Read some stuff about Diebold Corp and the US elections. Think about the future not just the here and now. How would you maintain trust in electronic voting in future?
Do you want the voting systems from CACI, BAE or Lockheed Martin?
#27 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 8:59 pm
It’d be a bit weird to employ defence companies to develop voting systems. Personally, I’d be more inclined to get people who have worked on banking systems (like… me! :P)
#28 by Iain Menzies on April 17, 2012 - 9:43 pm
Having seen what goes on with the banks over the last few years……
#29 by mav on April 17, 2012 - 7:19 pm
I’ve never been a fan of transferable votes, and the few things I’ve seen it up close have hardened my belief. Once, I saw a candidate (at uni) get over 40% of the first vote and fail to win, despite no other candidate breaking 20%. At the end t came down to 6th preference votes. And since the last council elections, I’ve had a councillor who got 6% of the 1st vote, while a candidate who got 28% failed to get through.
I’ll read up on concordat, but I doubt I’ll find it ideal. There is no perfect electoral system, one that gives strength to 1st votes will be weak in other areas, one that is proportional lacks local linkage, etc.
For what its worth, I’ll keep going down to the bottom of the list. Thankfully in my ward, I won’t have to choose between the BNP and the Christian Fundamentalists. I think. Maybe their leaflets will arrive tomorrow.
#30 by Angus McLellan on April 18, 2012 - 1:17 pm
“Once, I saw a candidate (at uni) get over 40% of the first vote and fail to win, despite no other candidate breaking 20%. … I’ve had a councillor who got 6% of the 1st vote, while a candidate who got 28% failed to get through.”
Neither of those can have happened under STV as used in Scottish elections. The quota in three-seat ward is only 25%+1 of total votes cast, and 20%+1 in a four-seat ward.
#31 by Phil Hunt on April 18, 2012 - 10:36 pm
That’s not true. Scottish council elections are all either 3 or 4 candidate. Any candidate getting more than 25% of 1st prefs (3 seat) or 20% (4 seat) is guaranteed to get elected.
#32 by mav on April 17, 2012 - 7:22 pm
incidentally, this wasn’t the article I expected from the opening sentences. The great uncertainty over this election which nobody mentions is that it will have half the turnout of the only previous election under this system. Care to predict the results anybody?
#33 by Barbarian on April 17, 2012 - 7:28 pm
Most voters may have grasped what STV is, but many others will still find it confusing.
I mean, the SNP’s broadcast (I know, still going on about it!) said “1,2,3 SNP” (or something close). Great, what happens if there is only one SNP candidate?
No voting system is perfect to be honest.
Electronic voting might be better, but I’d avoid online voting, since at some point it will be hacked.
Just had a couple of leaflets through the door. The Labour one names the two candidates from my ward, but the SNP one has Alex on one side and Nicola on the other. So who are my SNP candidates?
Local elections are as much about personalities as parties; in some cases more so. The SNP seem to be running their election on the Salmond factor again. It’s not as if they are short of money!
#34 by Doug Daniel on April 17, 2012 - 8:52 pm
“Local elections are as much about personalities as parties; in some cases more so. The SNP seem to be running their election on the Salmond factor again. It’s not as if they are short of money!”
Really? If anything, I’d say they’re doing exactly the opposite. My local SNP candidate’s leaflet doesn’t mention Salmond at all, and he’s the one party leader that isn’t featured in his party’s own PPB. I dare say Nicola is being bigged up a fair bit in Glasgow, but then it’s not unusual for local MPs/MSPs to be collared in to helping out in local elections. The most I’ve heard about Salmond so far was from Lamont’s speech today!
Of course, maybe if the media would recognise that elections are happening outside Glasgow, things might be different…
#35 by Barbarian on April 17, 2012 - 10:34 pm
I’m in East Kilbride, not Glasgow. We have Labour running things in South Lanarkshire, and to be honest the few SNP councillors I know of – bar one – come under the heading of Chocolate Kettle.
One of the Labour candidates is a highly respected councillor who does his job well.
While national issues are important, it is equally important that the SNP promote their local candidates. EK does not have any burning issues, even if I have a few points with the council. Therefore the local candidates should be out there offering a better choice. The Labour leaflet specifically points to local issues within the town, rather than the council.
But as you point out Glasgow is becoming the focus of all attention, which is daft to be honest because whether the SNP take the city or not it will have no bearing on the Referendum.
#36 by Daniel J on April 17, 2012 - 11:06 pm
SNP literature I’ve seen in Aberdeenshire could have been used in #sp11.
#37 by Doug Daniel on April 18, 2012 - 10:06 am
I thought you guys were in favour of recycling? 😛
#38 by Indy on April 17, 2012 - 11:35 pm
Labour are spending a lot of money in Glasgow. They are determined to keep it. Whether they will or not I have no idea but it’s a sensible strategy for the SNP to draw their fire and Labour must know that at some level – Johann Lamont has already conceded the national result according to the Guardian.
#39 by AFaulds on April 17, 2012 - 8:59 pm
The SNP seem to be taking a lot of stick for running a national campaign rather than a series of local campaigns, but I think there’s a lot more local variation than some people are giving them credit for.
Certainly in my ward, all I’ve had through is an SNP leaflet – complete with a picture of the two candidates and (though still perhaps not enough) half the campaign issues listed being local. I haven’t seen hide nor hair of the other parties – or of Alex or Nicola! Maybe Drumchapel/Anniesland is the exception to the rule though, and we’re really gunning for the Eck’s factor elsewhere.
#40 by Phil Hunt on April 18, 2012 - 10:38 pm
Which parties are doing this?
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