A guest post from Craig Gallagher, a Graduate Fellow at the Clough Center for Constitutional Democracy, Boston College. Craig is a PhD student in the History Dept, and will be presenting some of his research on Scottish colonial ventures at the British Scholar Society’s”Britain and the World” Conference at the University of Edinburgh on June 21st-23rd, 2012. He blogs irregularly at www.gallacticos.blogspot.com.
Months ago, on this very blog, a rallying call was issued to historians to come to the table and challenge some of the historical misconceptions that have infected the independence debate. Thus far, noted scholars such as Tom Devine, Richard Finlay, Allan MacInnes and even Neil Oliver have been conspicuous by their absence on our screens or in our broadsheets.
While not claiming to possess anything near the sort of influence or intellectual clout as any of the aforementioned, this historian would like to answer the call.
Challenging popular preconceptions of Scottish history is actually very fertile ground. One could, for example, dismiss the way the ’45 Rebellion is portrayed as a Scots rebellion against the English by pointing out that it was backed by French money, used mainly Irish and Highland Gaelic troops (something very distinct from ‘Scottish’ in the 18th century) and gained considerable English support from northern nobles disaffected with their German-speaking King George II. Daniel Szechi and Jonathan Oates, amongst others, have written fruitfully on such matters.
There is, however, a more pertinent historical white elephant that needs tackling within the context of the forthcoming Scottish referendum on independence: the Darién scheme. This was the colonising expedition by the Company of Scotland to the Panamanian isthmus in 1698 and 1699, which has famously been regarded as foolhardy in the extreme, beset by incompetent Scottish leadership and as leaving the country so bankrupt that economic and political Union with England in 1707 saved us from ourselves. There are, however, a number of persistent and troubling problems with this interpretation.
The first concerns the expedition’s supposed foolishness. While it might seem fantastical to us today to imagine Scots as strewn across the Darién isthmus, a place utterly remote from home in both geographical and ecological terms, it is worth noting that it fits comfortably within the narrative of small powers in the late seventeenth century trying to carve a niche for themselves in the Caribbean and elsewhere in the New World. The Swedes, for example, colonised the Delaware River between 1638 and 1655, while the Brandenburg Prussians shared custody with the Danes over the Caribbean island of St. Thomas until 1735. The Dutch, of course, owned the Hudson River colony of New Netherland until its conquest and renaming by the Duke of York’s armies in 1664, to which the redoubtable Dutch responded three years later by conquering and holding English Suriname until modern times.
The degree of investment the scheme attracted was also remarkable for its diversity and creditworthiness. Figures as towering as John Locke, Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun and William Paterson (the founder of the Bank of England) all regarded it as a sound project, while subscribers could be found in most of the major merchant houses in Amsterdam, Hamburg and London. Their faith was well-founded, for even after the colony at Darién’s collapse, the Company of Scotland continued to trade for seven years after Darién’s downfall. This begs the obvious question: if it didn’t even bankrupt the parent company, how confident can we be that the venture’s failure left Scotland as destitute as has been commonly asserted?
There is much mileage in discussing the various problems the Scots had in Panama, such as disease, poor quality soil and rancorous leadership, and these have been expounded on impressively, if glumly, by scholars such as John Prebble and Douglas Watt. But more needs to be said about the political context of Darién’s downfall, which is where the venture’s explicit relationship to Scottish independence becomes apparent.
King William II of Scotland (known to many Scots colloquially as ‘King Billy’) was entirely complicit in the Scottish failure to realise their dreams of empire, given that he explicitly forbade English colonies such as Jamaica from offering any aid or succour to the struggling colonists in 1700. He furthermore refused to intercede on his own subjects’ behalf when the Spanish colonial forces in the region began to menace the Scots, so concerned was he with his diplomatic clout in the court of Madrid because of the impending Spanish Succession crisis (the childless King Carlos II died later that year). The interests of the united British Crown were put ahead of that of its vulnerable subjects.
The idea that disasters like Darién represent what happens if the Scots are left to their own devices persists unchallenged in much of the popular imagination. Yet it fails to take account of all of this and more, including the fact that like many other early modern kingdoms, Scotland had colonial successes and failures. Nova Scotia in Canada takes its name from the short-lived (1629-32) Scottish settlement established to compete with the French in the beaver trade, while the establishment of a Covenanter haven at Stuart’s Town, South Carolina (1684-86), provoked the ire of local Spanish military garrisons in much the same way as the Darién colony did.
As for successes, Scottish cultural enclaves existed all across the North and Baltic seas in Europe, particularly in Rotterdam in the Netherlands, Konigsberg in East Prussia (now the city of Kaliningrad) and in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where Scottish Calvinists were invited by the Protestant monarchy to settle and convert the Commonwealth’s mostly Catholic and Orthodox population. East New Jersey was also a high-profile and enduring Scottish overseas project, founded by the poorly-studied Scottish Quaker community in 1683 as a religious haven from the determinedly Episcopal Church of Scotland of this period. There is also a well-established historical argument that the Ulster plantations, began in 1606 by the newly crowned Scottish King of England, James VI & I, represent a Scots colonising initiative in Ireland, given the degree to which Presbyterians from the Lowlands displaced the native population and owned swathes of farmland as a result. Seen as such, it would arguably be one of the most successful and long-lasting of all European colonies, were it not for the region’s well-known troubled history.
The point worth emphasizing is that Darién did not exist in isolation. The circumstances of its collapse were far more complex than is usually allowed, and had as much to do with wider British political calculations as much as it did with Scottish financial mismanagement. That is the lesson it teaches in this moment of national assertion. The Spanish have, this time at least, promised to stay out of our affairs, while Alex Salmond’s careful courting of the Queen suggests he has understood the importance of our colony’s collapse to our dialogue with the British state. If you’ll allow me a provocative comparison between English negligence in the 17th century Caribbean and the 20th century council estates of the Central Belt, I would suggest that it is perfectly possible to conceive the Scottish independence debate as an appropriate historical bookend to partner the circumstances of our colony’s collapse on either side of Scotland’s British interlude.
#1 by Doug Daniel on March 19, 2012 - 3:36 pm
Excellent article Craig. It really annoys me when people try to hold up Darien as some kind of proof that Scotland is too wee to survive alone. But then, this is what happens when people try to reduce history down to such overly-simplistic levels – the Battle of Boyne being another perfect example.
I assume the natural progression from this is an article detailing the fallacy of the “Scotland had to join the union because it was broke” argument…? That’s possibly one of the biggest crimes of history being rewritten to suit a particular cause.
#2 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 4:02 pm
I really wish nationalists would stop with the too wee stuff.
#3 by Don McC on March 19, 2012 - 7:17 pm
Eh, it isn’t nationalists who say this, it’s unionists. Quite obvious when you look at it, really.. Oh, I get it, you think that when a unionist says Scotland won’t have a navy/army/airforce/any influence in the world/etc. they mean because of Scotland’s geography and grid co-ordinates, nothing to do with Scotland’s size, wealth, intelligence, etc.
#4 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 7:56 pm
No its nationalist that wilfully misrepresent the argument.
For all intents and purposes Scotland wouldnt have an Army/Navy/Air Force/any influence in the world. The Unionist point is that Scotland is smaller then the UK, and as such has a smaller impact on the wider world. It is in fact a very simple, and accurate point.
Nationalist do not in any meaningful way engage with this. They do not, honestly confront the reality that Scotland would be an international near irrelevance. Rather they mis-represent the point to try and make it look as if in some way unionist are doing down Scotland…..it is no more than an extension of the McAlpine tendency.
#5 by Indy on March 19, 2012 - 8:48 pm
When you say to all intents and purposes Scotland wouldn’t have an army, navy or air force you are saying that to all intents and purposes most countries in the world don’t have an army, navy or air force,
Which begs the question of what the intents and purposes of having an army, navy and air force actually are.
But in any case you are factually wrong. An independent Scotland would almost certainly have a combined armed forces which is larger than the Scottish component of the UK armed forces now and would have so at a lesser cost than now because a) we pay far more into UK defence spending than we get back – that underspend would vanish with indepedence and b) we would no longer be contributing to a nuclear weapons programme. Indeed, during the period of time it will take to relocate the UK’s nuclear arsenal it would be reasonable for them to pay us rather than us paying them.
#6 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 11:35 pm
I would argue that an awful lot of countries dont have an army, navy or air force, since alot of the armies that are out there are little better than para military forces.
And i may be factually wrong about the state of a Scottish Defence Force. But you haven’t proven me wrong. I dont know if it was you or someone else that commented here that it makes no sense to ask the SNP or anyone else, to define what an independent scotland would look like as it is up to an independent scotland to make those decisions. which means that none of us, right now, have any real idea of what an SDF would look like.
#7 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 9:38 am
Sorry Iain, but in what way is claiming that “Scotland would be an international near irrelevance” not doing down Scotland?
You specifically say “The Unionist point is that Scotland is smaller then the UK, and as such has a smaller impact on the wider world”, so you are equating size (population or geographical) with importance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
Presumably, then, you accept the reality that Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, the Philippines, Vietnam, Ethiopia, Egypt, Iran, Turkey, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Thailand all have a bigger impact on the wider world than the tiny wee UK, sitting at a pathetic 22nd on the list of countries by population? In fact, with over a third of the world’s population between them, if we’re being brutally honest the only two countries in the world which matter are China and India – even the USA looks pretty pathetic there with a mere 4.47% of the world’s population.
Here are the questions you need to answer, Iain: what does it mean to be “relevant” on the international stage? What sort of “impact” do you think the UK has on the world, and how is that impact different from countries such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Ireland etc? Which countries in the world do you consider to be “relevant” and “irrelevant”, and what are the rules that determine which countries are applicable? And why do you think it is so important for a country to have this “impact”?
Until you can answer these questions, nationalists like me will continue to accuse you of talking down Scotland and calling us “too wee, too poor, too stupid”.
#8 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 9:53 am
you call it talking down i call it being realistic.
population size is a reasonable measure in the west, but not beyond there, bangladesh for example aint gonna be buying up the worlds oil reserves any time soon.
#9 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 10:07 am
I’ll repeat.
Here are the questions you need to answer, Iain: what does it mean to be “relevant†on the international stage? What sort of “impact†do you think the UK has on the world, and how is that impact different from countries such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Ireland etc? Which countries in the world do you consider to be “relevant†and “irrelevantâ€, and what are the rules that determine which countries are applicable? And why do you think it is so important for a country to have this “impactâ€?
Until you can answer these questions, nationalists like me will continue to accuse you of talking down Scotland and calling us “too wee, too poor, too stupidâ€.
#10 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 10:28 am
Im not the one that wants to change scotlands constitutional relationship.
So no i refuse to answer your question.
I as a Scot, have a right to know what independence will mean.
So you tell me what Scotland’s position in the world would be.
#11 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 10:57 pm
Come on, that’s such a cop out. I don’t know why you’re not ashamed to put your name against such a statement. Iain, the independence debate is a two-way thing. If you want to take the attitude that only nationalists need to argue their case, then you’re on the fast-track to independence.
You need to get real here. You’re a unionist, so you want people to vote for the union, yet you don’t see why you should have to argue your position. That’s an incredibly arrogant attitude. That’s the only word for it. You say you have a right to know what independence will mean – but you don’t think people deserve to know what continuing under the union will mean?
Away and come back when you’ve got something worthwhile to say, instead of glib platitudes which you don’t even have the decency to back with explanations.
#12 by Craig Gallagher on March 19, 2012 - 10:43 pm
Thanks Doug, much appreciated. I agree that such appropriation of events like this for modern purposes is galling, and is something many in our public sphere are guilty of. There’s always a deeper context that needs to be appreciated before such assertions can be made.
As to your second paragraph, that is a potential progression, but I would temper it by saying (a) I don’t believe history is a progression, but a series of discrete events that have their own causes and effects, and (b) there’s no denying Scotland wasn’t a wealthy country in the early 18th century, at least relative to other similar sized economies like the Dutch Republic and the Swedes. The idea that Darién caused such economic problems as to force us into Union is, however, an issue I’ve long had a problem with (and indeed, many full professors do as well: see Allan MacInnes’ excellent book “Union and Empire”).
In a professional capacity, I don’t see the “poor Scotland saved by Union” script as being mendacious, although I might wonder as a nationalist. More than anything else, I just see it as a product of its own historical era, one that has now passed. We live in exciting times for understanding and appreciating the history of Scotland.
#13 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 4:14 pm
I’m not really sure what exactly it is you are trying to say here. It seems to be that it was a great, or at least decent, idea, and that it was only that nasty King Billy that got in the way of it?
I agree with you that Darien cant be considered in isolation. I don’t, however, believe that any of the other examples add in anyway to understanding the failure of Darien, and failure it was, the continued trading of the Company of Scotland makes no difference to that judgement.
The point about Darien, to my mind, is what it shows about a small power acting on the world stage and the constraints placed upon it.
My understanding of Darien is this:
The intention was to place a trading post, rather than a colony as such, in central America, to Facilitate trade between the Atlantic and the Pacific.
Such a post would have to be placed in territory claimed by Spain. One of, if not THE most powerful nations in the world at that time.
Spain would not welcome such a trading post.
Scotland, in and of itself, could not force a change in Spanish policy.
England would be unlikely to support Scotland in a venture that would bring it to war with more powerful nations when its own gain would be limited at best.
So the point is that a sensible reading of the geo-political landscape would suggest that failure would be the most likely outcome of the project, without English support, which was at best unlikely. That was and is my interpretation of the scheme, you haven’t provided anything to change that view.
As for the question of the union, There is a view that Scotland needed the union to be able to have Scots act on a larger stage, and that the union provided for a richer more prosperous Scotland. I very much doubt that Darien impacts in any significant way either of those things.
#14 by Craig Gallagher on March 19, 2012 - 10:58 pm
Iain, thanks for such a detailed reply. I’ll do my best to address all your points.
Firstly, I’m not saying the blame has to be laid only at the door of King William (although that was where it was laid by most Scots after 1700). I recognise that there were other mitigating factors, not least the rampant yellow fever which decimated the colony and the very real provisioning problems faced by a famine-stricken Scottish economy.
The point about William of Orange is that he was King of Scotland at a time when his country was trying to rescue itself from economic strife. He was also King of England, of course, and predominantly interested in realpolitik above all else. His calculations regarding the Spanish Empire were to avoid it taking the side of France come the outbreak of the Succession Crisis, to which end he was prepared to hinder the Scots in every possible way. It mattered nought, because Spain eventually did ally with France against him and the Scots perished in horrid numbers. But he is a factor, one that isn’t often given much credit in the literature (but is increasingly appearing).
The reason the context matters is that all the other ventures I mentioned, but didn’t have enough space to go into real detail about, relied on state support to really get going. On no other occasion was a British monarch so actively hostile to a colonising effort by their own subjects, which is to say that this made Darién in many ways unique. It might have gone very differently had the King supported it. He didn’t, of course, but it still matters if we are to understand all the vectors as to why the venture failed, not least the reasons many loyal Williamite Scots believed it could succeed.
As to the geopolitical scene, you overestimate the power of the states in question. On only two other occasions in the 17th century was a colony larger than New Caledonia (which at most had around 1,000 people) conquered or destroyed by a foreign power: Cromwell’s English navy in Jamaica, which sent over 4,000 troops against a settlement of 1,500; and Stuart’s Town, South Carolina, when 1,200 defenceless Scots were blown off the landscape after a Spanish fleet was accidentally blown into their harbour (they had, however, been harassing Spanish interests in the area for over a year).
Almost every other act of colonisation in the region was over very minor possessions – the islands of St. Kitts, Nevis, Montserrat etc – or against Native populations, as in the constant Anglo-Dutch battles against the stubborn Caribs of Guiana and Suriname. The Scottish expedition to Darién had plenty of reason to imagine the Spanish would struggle to oust them from their secure harbour, and indeed they repelled two large Spanish attacks successfully and with minimal casualties before disease robbed them off their fighting strength.
As to the Union, I would quibble with your use of “needed”, simply because that’s hard to prove. Darién was, not incidentally, the reason behind the Equivalent Clause in the Treaty of Union, which saw English taxpayers reimburse the subscribers of the Company of Scotland for the failure of the Darién expedition and was a recognition of the English Parliament and Crown’s complicity in its downfall. It was this apparent bribe that moved Burns to pen “bought and sold for English gold”, an assertion that has itself rightly come under intense scrutiny.
#15 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 10:04 am
three points.
1)there i another way to read the reality of Scotland acting without the support of the King, due of course to the union of the crowns, that being that the colony was, well, illegal/rogue. A lot of what i have read on the matter, and i would be interested in relevant texts on the matter its been a wee while since ive looked at this as a history student, can be summed up by Scotland/the Scots expectting the King to support, or at least not oppose the move on the basis of him being their King, without regard to the wider responsibilities he had as King of England.
2) I genuinely think that the geo-political reality places Darien in a somewhat different context to other efforts, certainly those you mention in your original post with regards to Scottish activity in the Baltic for example.
3)On the needed point, Im not saying it was, rather that there is a Historiographical view that there was. I dont entirely buy that. I think it would be, at best, difficult to show Scotland developing as well as it did untill say 1914 without the union. But generally i would argue that the conditions that provoked the Union become more and more irrelevant to assessing Scotlands place in the Union the further you get from 1707.
#16 by Craig Gallagher on March 20, 2012 - 8:29 pm
I think your second and third points are well made. On the first, I would point out that Company Of Scotland was given the legal right to pursue colonial ventures in 1695, when the King’s High Commissioner to the Scottish Parliament, the Duke of Lauderdale, gave the Act creating the Company royal assent.
Of course, he was removed from his position by William and disgraced as a royalist thereafter, so it was clear William had not wanted him to act as he did. However, remember that one of the fundamental purposes of the Glorious Revolution that brought King William to power was the enshrinement in law and in practice of Parliaments in England and Scotland. To the point of view of the Scottish Parliament, the King was not an arbitrary ruler, he could not simply repeal a law passed by the majority of the Parliament after it had been secured. From the point of view of the Company’s investors, there was nothing illegal or rogue about Darien (save perhaps the Spanish claim to the territory, which really mattered little as it wasn’t settled and anyway, they were Catholic, stealing a region from them was probably a plus point in favour of the scheme).
Thanks for the thoughtful replies again, I was hoping for some engagement on the historiographic points and you’re definitely giving me that.
#17 by Iain Menzies on March 21, 2012 - 4:24 pm
Your welcome, its been a joy for me to engage with you on this.
I think the point about what the King and Parliament wants in part at least comes down to separation of powers. It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the Glorious Revolution but I would suggest that there is a suggestion in your comments that the relative powers of Crown and Parliament are not as clearly defined as your original post and subsequent comments would imply. Thats not to say that I would be confident in stating what those powers are, only that there is a degree of fluidity in the Scottish constitution pre 1707.
#18 by Craig Kelly on March 19, 2012 - 5:54 pm
Iain, nationalists will stop with the, ‘too wee stuff’, when unionists stop making that argument. Is it not right and proper to re-buff the arguments of your opponents?
I really liked the article, good job.
#19 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 6:26 pm
There is a difference between rebuffing an argument and, to be frank, talking mince.
The whole point of the ‘too wee’ stuff, tho i have never heard those words used, but im sure they have been, is that there are things that are gained by scale. The fantasy of the SNP/Nationalist that 5 odd million can do what 60+million can is nonsense. And in some areas the SNP position is that the Scottish position will be proportional to the Uk position without taking into account the dis=advantage of a wider support base.
Also there is the the point that its abit rich on the one hand to try and beat unionists with claiming something they dont actually mean (that scotland would wither and die on account of being a wee stunted kitten) and then denying something that they do do (that anyone who disagrees with them is anti-scottish and evil and un patriotic and basically english if not by birth than by thought and should probably hang for treason against the good just and pure people of scotia).
PS, I dont know why but since reading your ‘re-buff’ bit i just have this image of you applying a coat of wax to one of Camerons speeches …….
#20 by Don McC on March 19, 2012 - 7:48 pm
Even accepting economies of scale, their argument does boil down to “Scotland’s too wee” or “Scotland’s too poor”. Now, you may not like that but there it is. Not talking mince, just getting to the nub of their argument.
You also have to take into account that despite your economies of scale, other countries of similar size (and smaller) seem to manage things that are claimed would be beyond Scotland. Scotland is somehow uniquely incapable, making up the infamous trinity with “Scotland’s too stupid”.
Now the reason most Unionists hate the fact this is repeated by nationalists is because the Scottish people believe it less and less each time it’s repeated. Eventually, they won’t believe it at all. And then we have the referendum.
#21 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 8:03 pm
On your first para see my previous response to you.
On your second, what country does these things? I didnt mention any specifics, and nor have you. Give me a specific and i will show you why you are wrong.
On your third, aye very good!
The idea that the more Scots hear the unionist case, such as it has so far been made, will drive them into the arms of separatism is laughable. There has been basically no shift towards an anti union position in Scotland. We have even had a visit from that evil english tory of a prime minister and not a single noted change in the polls.
You can keep telling yourself that the scots are being driven towards the nationalist cause, but it doesnt change the reality one bit, the reality being that Scotland is a Unionist country.
#22 by Donald MacDonald on March 19, 2012 - 9:44 pm
Not something I personally approve of, but the contribution to air strikes by Denmark and Norway during the destruction of Libya was greater than or equal to that of the RAF.
#23 by Donald MacDonald on March 19, 2012 - 9:45 pm
I should mention that that is individually, not collectively.
#24 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 11:38 pm
Your quite right, but also wrong 😉
I have a major problem with the RAF….not the least of which is its existence….but the RAF was only one part of the UK contribution, there was also a sizeable RN and Army presence.
But the more important point (the why you are wrong bit) is that this was done at the same time as the UK armed forces were doing much much more (for right or wrong) than either Norway or Denmark could hope to.
#25 by Donald MacDonald on March 20, 2012 - 10:29 am
I suggest you re-read what Don said, and the second paragraph of your reply to him.
In that context, I am not wrong.
Should it so choose, Scotland would be as capable of such a contribution as either Denmark or Norway. The size and contribution of the UK is irrelevant, I used it merely as an index of the size of the Scandinavian contribution.
#26 by Don McC on March 20, 2012 - 7:04 am
Norway, as an example, have a sizeable air force which regularly takes part in NATO excercises. They also have a good size navy which includes heavy frigates, submarines, mine sweepers as well as support vessels. There’s an army there too but of course, I could be wrong. 😉
#27 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 10:07 am
The Norwegian experience tells up nothing. Id put good money on Scotland not being anywhere near where Norway is for at least 15 years post Indy, and not even then, due to the level of investment that would be needed to get there. You show me proof that Scotland will out strip Norwegian defence spending for the period 2016-2030 and ill concede the point, until then your living a fantasy if you think Scotland will be anywhere near the capabilities of Norway.
#28 by Don McC on March 22, 2012 - 6:53 am
Right, now you concede that countries of the size of Scotland could do these things, it’s just Scotland that couldn’t, at least not right away.
But then, the investment has already been made. The assets are there. Okay, they were made in conjunction with the rest of the UK but unless you’re one of those people who think that everything that’s not nailed down will somehow revert to the ownership of rUK, Scotland already has a stake in a sizeable navy / army / airforce.
As for showing you proof. Unfortunately, Norway won’t let me be privy to their defence spending plans for the next 2 decades. I did ask but a man with a very big gun said no, so I thought against pushing for an answer. But how about conceding the point if you can’t show proof that UK defence spending will outstrip the Norwegians for the same period? After all, you must have those figures to hand, eh?
Or are you allowed to live in a fantasy land where Scotland is too incapable of doing the things a normal country does without the guiding hand of Westminster? Because, like those assertions made by your Unionist brethren, that’s what your argument boils down to. Nothing to do with economies of scale, nothing to do with geography, everything to do with the desperate belief that Scotland is somehow less capable than other countries.
#29 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 9:00 am
“We have even had a visit from that evil english tory of a prime minister and not a single noted change in the polls.”
Oh right, so that poll which gave 51% yes and 39% no was a figment of the collective Cybernat imagination then? And all those polls which are consistently showing both sides to be in the 40% region are just made up?
The only thing the polls show is that Scotland is divided and that everything is to play for, nothing more. If you think you can rely on polls to save the union, then you might as well give up now – we all know how good the polls were at predicting the 2011 result…
#30 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 10:11 am
That 51% poll was a nonsense. Id never heard of the polling company before it came out, and i aint heard of it since. I wasnt at the time able to find the tables, so i have no idea what it means in reality.
And thats before you get the the point that if a poll is WAY out of line with every other poll before and since then it has to be a rogue.
As for both positions being on 40%, so? we wont have a ‘dont know’ option on the ballot paper, and pretty much every poll thats out there shows a clear 60+% for staying in the union on a straight yes no choice.
Also, dont cite one poll, then in the close of your comment question the value of polls as such, it just makes you look silly.
#31 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 10:10 pm
No Iain, my point was you’re saying there was not a single noted change in the polls, and I’m just pointing out that there was. Rubbish the poll if you like, but I seem to recall a year ago an increasing number of polls were being put down as “rogue” polls.
Pointing this out to you does not invalidate my view that polls are rubbish. You’re the one who believes in them, not me; I’m merely highlighting a flaw in your argument.
#32 by Andrew Graeme Smith on March 19, 2012 - 9:41 pm
Hi Don
As someone who agrees with independence I don’t buy into that. I am yet to hear a unionist arguing that Scotland is “too wee, too poor, too stupid” to survive. If there’s one string in the nationalist bow that I don’t really like it’s that idead that people are “talking down Scotland” every time they disagree, if you can find me one respectable commentator who has actually said Scots are too stupid to survive post independence then i’ll give you a tenner. The ‘talking down Scotland’ argument is used far too much as a defence whenever peole ask questions, albeit some are daft questions are daft to begin with.
The point that unionists usually make is that Scotland’s role would be different from that of the UK and that we wouldnt have that much fabled role of the bridge across the Atlantic. My own position is good frankly, I have less than no interest in the idea of the nations that make up the united kingdom trying to place the same role internationally as that of the UK. That’s not about being ‘to wee’, frankly Britain is ‘to wee’ to try and play at being the world’s policeman and I would hope Scotland never even try.
#33 by Indy on March 20, 2012 - 7:10 am
Nobody would literally say Scotland is too wee or too poor or too stupid but it has been a constant theme nonetheless.
Less so now because they realise it has backfired but for many years, yes it was the constant theme.
#34 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 8:45 am
True, unionists never actually say “too wee, too poor, too stupid” in so many words, but that’s the message their language gives, whether they mean to or not.
Look at Iain above saying “For all intents and purposes Scotland wouldnt have an Army/Navy/Air Force/any influence in the world.” He’s not saying this in a positive way. He is not saying “Scotland could have these things, but we will rightly choose to eschew the idea of trying to police the world”. He is saying we would be incapable of having these things, and the fact he even brings it up as a negative suggests he thinks countries NEED this “influence”, which is similar to the “influence” a school bully has over the other kids. He is saying that if you aren’t one of the big boys, then you don’t matter. He is saying, then, that we are “too wee” to be an effective nation, and incidentally, if that’s not talking down Scotland, then I don’t know what is.
He is of course completely wrong. The very existence of permanent members of the UN security council is completely undemocratic, because no one country should be able to veto UN motions. Do I care that Scotland would not have this “influence”? No. Do I care that the UK could stop having this “influence”? No, in fact I positively welcome it.
#35 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 10:20 am
Do i think that it is better that a nation with a history of democracy, of free speech, of open trade, trial by jury, civil liberties and generally not being an arse is in a position to help direct world affairs in a direction that is closer to its own experience than say the experience of china? Good god yes, you dont, thats fine.
What i am saying, is that I think we should be able to find ourselves in a position to say, this thing thats going on over there is wrong, lets do something about it. Take sierra leone, take lybia, take kosovo, i dont care which, in the first two the Uk was the motive force behind action coming down the line, in the third we could have been if we had wanted to be. Scotland will on the contrary be in a position of saying, i dont like that, i want to change that, lets hope someone else wants to too so we can help them do it. Scotland will be at the mercy of international politics not able to shape international politics.
Scottish politics could not sustain Scotland being in a position to do what even a middle ranking power like the UK can do.
Thats no more talking down scotland than saying that the UK couldnt invade and conquer China is talking down the UK. What it is, and this is something that the SNP/Nationalist are seemingly incapable, for the most part, of doing, is being realistic about what Scotland will be.
And as for the UN, you can object to the Veto all you like, but if you want to get rid of that, you will end up getting rid of the UN itself.
#36 by Don McC on March 20, 2012 - 9:24 pm
“Scotland will on the contrary be in a position of saying, i dont like that, i want to change that, lets hope someone else wants to too so we can help them do it. Scotland will be at the mercy of international politics not able to shape international politics.”
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Ah, so the UK agrees with everything that going on in Syria, is that so Iain? After all, unlike Scotland, who would be at the mercy of international politics, the UK could simply go into Syria and change things would needing to hope that someone else wants to change things too. The fact that we aren’t doing that must mean that we’re happy for things to remain the way they are.
#37 by Doug Daniel on March 20, 2012 - 10:42 pm
“Direct”, eh? There’s nothing quite like a bit of world policing, is there?
What you seem to be advocating is countries acting unilaterally to shape the world in their vision. You want the UK to be able to say to countries “this is the way to do things”. Do you not understand that it is better to let countries find their own way? Help by all means, but don’t interfere – there are countless examples of countries like the UK and USA trying to import their idea of democracy on a country, or choosing a leader who they prefer and backing them etc. It doesn’t work. You just create a different mess.
Scotland will not be at the mercy of international politics – we’ll be a part of it. But clearly this is not what you want, because you think it is correct for the UK to be “shaping” things. I think we all know what “shaping” means – deciding for other people.
Despite my misgivings about the veto, the UN exists to create consensus amongst the various countries in the world, and to come to a joint decision as to what is the best course of action. That is infinitely better than your idea of the UK “influencing” things.
Here’s the realistic nationalist line: we will play our part in the world, just like every other country. We will not be able to force our ideologies on people, and that’s exactly how it should be. The greatest dangers to this world are countries trying to act on their own, thinking they’re the big man, ignoring what everyone else thinks. This is best countenanced through other countries working together for each other’s good, not one or two countries who have yet to grow out of imperialism deciding what the best course of action is, and mucking things up even more.
#38 by R Pollock on March 19, 2012 - 8:46 pm
The ‘too wee’ argument doesn’t really come from partisan unionists. It comes from disengaged parts of the population. It doesn’t really mean anything in particular. It’s usually uttered without any context given.
By ‘too wee’ it implies that landmass or population derives a particular type of country. I think this is an extension of the hubris of big means good simply being taken into international politics.
Logically it makes no sense. The life of a citizen is not based on the size of a country. Otherwise Angola would be as wealthy as Germany. Neither does it on population. It is how a country is run that matters.
Iain Menzies claims here that Scotland couldn’t do what the UK does now. ‘Do’ what exactly?
#39 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 11:40 pm
Have the influence (generally for the better) in the wider world for one.
#40 by EricF on March 19, 2012 - 9:09 pm
Very good article Craig. Was it not also the case that our dear Billy, under pressure from the East India Company, forced English investors to pull out of the Company of Scotland, and also informed those in the rest of Europe that investment therein would be treated as a hostile act? Regarding Scotland’s “bankruptcy” – were we not singularly lacking a National Debt at the time of the Union, and was England’s not staggeringly great? Was the “Equivalent” that was used to buy out the Company of Scotland’s investors not repaid many times over by the ordinary people of Scotland through the higher taxes imposed as a result of the Union?
Only asking, like.
#41 by Craig Gallagher on March 19, 2012 - 11:05 pm
Thanks Eric, I appreciate the comments. King William’s ambassador to Hamburg, Paul Rycaut, did indeed threaten potential foreign investors away from the Company of Scotland by suggestion London and Amsterdam would both cease many trading operations in the the region. And you make an excellent point about the National Debt: if that is to be the measure of the health of a country, Scotland’s was minimal because all the subscriptions paid to the Company of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland (both created in 1695) were paid in specie, rather than credit. England, however, had been relying on government bonds since the foundation of the Bank of England in 1690.
And yes, an immediate consequence of the Union was higher taxes across the board. Scots were given access to England’s trading network, a considerable boon to the many merchants who had operated on the fringes of the English Empire for much of the 17th century, but those living and working at home found themselves newly subject to all sorts of trading and manufacturing tariffs implemented by Westminster to secure the interests of the English regions against the Scots in the pre-Union years. These were not relaxed after 1707.
#42 by Iain Menzies on March 19, 2012 - 11:44 pm
I could ask were not those ‘higher taxes’ rewarded by the massive opportunity that many, many scots had to benefit outside of scotland by taking part in the wider British Empire….not to mention the various industries whos markets were only avaliable in large part due to involvement in self same Empire.
Course i could just ask you to prove that taxes would have been lower in a none union scotland….but since there is no way you ould possibly prove that, and all the talk of Scotland being Sweden in the British isles would suggest the opposite….that just wouldnt be fair to ask.
#43 by Craig Gallagher on March 20, 2012 - 12:08 pm
Actually, there’s plenty of evidence to prove that, at least in the immediate aftermath of the Union of 1707. Taxes were increased on trade, manufacture and particularly cattle driving as one of the first acts of the newly convened British Parliament. You say many, many Scots would have benefited, but those who actively were enriched in material terms by access to England’s Empire would be exclusively the two-three percent who owned the majority of the land and commercial property in early 18th century Scotland.
The rest would have had to actively move out into the Empire to achieve anything at all, as it would be a good 40 years after the Anglo-Scots Union before domestic manufactures or Scottish merchant houses adapted and prospered under their new circumstances. See T. C. Smout’s “A History of the Scottish People” for a comprehensive overview.
#44 by douglas clark on March 19, 2012 - 10:28 pm
This was an interesting article. It seems to me that they were all ‘at it’ back then, even the Dutch who were possibly a nation of comparable size to Scotland?
I’d have thought that all of these counties were a tad rapacious and, well, creatures of their own time.
I wonder whether there is, nowadays, any equivalent in, say Portugal or Holland of this rememberance of times past? Which the Brits seem totally hung up on.
Or perhaps they have got over their colonialist phase and just get on with their own lives?
Perhaps we should ask them.
_______________________________
Iain Menzies is amazing.
Well, that’s all the unionists have done, so far.
You guys have to up your game in the second half.
just saying Iain……
You are repeatedly asked to tell us what is so good about the status quo and neither you nor anyone else appears capable of giving an honest answer. Hence the idea that we will sleepwalk into independence on the grounds that you guys haven’t a scooby how to argue against it. Except perhaps comparing Salmond to a dictator or summat.
That’s about the strength of the Unionist case.
He’s fat, he’s Mugabe and err, we can’t find a rhyme. It is predicated on the idea that voters are completely thick.
#45 by Iain Menzies on March 20, 2012 - 10:26 am
There is a problem with giving an honest answer, two infact.
One is that it is only ever accepted as an honest answer if it isnt an answer that supports the union, accepted i should say by nats.
the second is, why the hell should we.
Its not unionist that wasnt to change the constitution. Your demand for answers amounts to this broadly :
We want change! what change you ask? this change! what do you mean you dont know what this change is! dont you see you should be asking whats good about what you have never mind if i havent told you wnat the change will be?!
You tell me what independence is. Am I a unionit? yes, obviously, but, and i know there arte those in the SNP that have problems with this idea, Im still a Scot, and i have a right to demand that YOU explain to ME what independence will look like, thats the same right that every scot has. That nationalists refuse to do so, and rather ask whats so good about the union, is, frankly, offensive.
#46 by Angus McLellan on March 20, 2012 - 7:54 pm
Nobody can tell you what independence will look like because ultimately that’s not a question about the nature of independence but rather a question about the future. You can demand all you like, but the future is unknowable, even with the resources of a government to hand. (Had the UK government been able to foresee that a Dutch coaster would ground off North Uist last night they wouldn’t have cancelled the MCA’s contract for a tug at Stornoway … see here for background.)
What independence is and why it should be seen as better than the status quo are more reasonable questions. However the truth is that the first is something that Wikipedia or any other reference source can answer for you. And as for the second, that ultimately comes down to opinion and judgement rather than fact.
#47 by Barbarian on March 19, 2012 - 11:22 pm
Excellent article, and it has been very well written.
#48 by JPJ2 on March 20, 2012 - 9:30 am
I don’t know how anyone can claim that the supposed poverty of an independent Scotland was not for many years a staple of the unionist case-it is a matter of record that Donald Dewar (in full knowledge of the McCrone report) claimed that the economy of Scotland would be like that of Bangladesh.
It is true that the unionists of recent years have been less prone to make such disgraceful and dishonest comments but that is due to the effective push back against such nonsense by the SNP.
#49 by Don Francisco on March 20, 2012 - 11:38 am
Great article Craig. There’s a challenge for both unionists and nationalists in it, or at least those for whom the scheme represents a significant underpinning to their reasoning, for which we can see evidence for in this thread already!
This era has always interested me, a time of huge, fast moving change. A book I read a couple of years ago – Vermeer’s Hat by Timothy Brook – uses the paintings of the Dutch master Vermeer (and what is in them) as a foil to examine the changes in the world at the time. Reading this you realise there was nothing enevitable about the Dutch becoming a successful trading empire. There were strong factors for and against it. Maybe it was an exception to the ‘too wee’ argument, maybe not.
Reflecting on this, there was no guarantee that Scotland could not have had a succesful trading empire, that King Billy wouldn’t have supported Darien had circumstances been different, that England would have refused Scottish traders entry to their colonies, that one of the colonies elsewhere might not have become enormously successful, that Scotland would have joined the Union (or done well from it for that matter). Factors for an against in each case, but no guarantees.
Small nations can survive, they just need to be more careful than the big ones! Scotland in this case came up between a rock and a hard place – threatening the Spanish domination of South America at a time King Bill wanted to avoid any confrontation. Reminds me a little Britain’s positions in Suez 1956 relying on but not getting US backing.
#50 by Craig Gallagher on March 20, 2012 - 8:32 pm
Thanks Don, a great reply. I agree with your third paragraph in particular, that is really the point I’m trying to put across. None of this was set in stone, and dichotomies aren’t helpful either. Darién wasn’t a massive hubristic act of folly any more than it was a brilliant plan scuppered by a mendacious English King. The reality, as always, is somewhere in between.
All in all, I wanted to challenge some assumptions, on both sides of the aisle, and I’m really pleased you think that I did so. Means a lot.
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#51 by David Gray on March 22, 2012 - 1:40 pm
A good contribution to the debate. Interesting to the see the wider effect that Macinnes’s contributions have had. With regard to wider reasoning on why Union occurred probably the best place to look would be the podcast of the academics debating the Act of Union 1707 at the University of Edinburgh in 2007, in particular the contribution of Alexander Murdoch.
He made the point that the English desire for Union remains a topic for further research, something which I note Richard Finlay is pursuing at this moment in time. His point about the fact that England in general treated Scotland as an afterthought in much of its business.
Macinnes’s work on the economic factors on Union, whether from financial concerns in the colonies to trade with the continent have been a welcome addition however.
#52 by Craig Gallagher on March 23, 2012 - 2:42 am
I’m a big fan of Alexander Murdoch’s work, butI wasn’t aware of that podcast: I’ll make a point of looking it up.
I’m currently researching exiled Covenanters in the Americas, so Murdoch and Steve Grosjean’s contributions on piracy and smugglers have been very enabling for the arguments I want to male. I agree that Allan MacInnes has made excellent contributions to the question of Scotland and the Union. He was one of the big reasons I am pursuing the American context of Scotland in the latter half of the 17th century, taking a class with him at Strathclyde really pushed me in that direction.
And I think you are correct that Richard Finlay is working on the English side of the Union. It’s a bit of a departure for him, historiographically, but I’m looking forward to seeing what he comes up with. My gut tells me it’s a population issue: England needed Scottish troops to wage the War of the Spanish Succession, while at the same time (in theory) closing the Scottish border to potential French invasions.
#53 by Don Francisco on March 22, 2012 - 8:20 pm
Hi Craig,
You are quite welcome. I’m a history graduate too so maybe that goes some way to explaining the appreciation.
Darien is a great topic as it forms both part of the Unionist and Nationalist narrative. Narratives are the way we understand and comprehend the course of events, but are limiting in that they select on certain facts to tell the tale.
And we need narratives challenging. Narratives build into myths, stories which we tell ourselves about who we think we are. Fooling ourselves about our past and identity can impair decisons we make now and in the future.
Keep the work up, I’ll look forward to your next post.