I don’t think I fully realised how badly Joan McAlpine had messed up with her “anti-Scottish†line on Twitter, which was raised in Holyrood yesterday, until she was ingloriously name checked by Douglas Alexander on BBC Question Time. Douglas went on to hector Nicola Sturgeon, asking if she agreed with Joan, in an unedifying spectacle that I fear will be replicated on all sides of the debate, up and down the party structures of SNP and Labour (and beyond), all the way out to autumn 2014.
For those who don’t know the context, the relevant parts of the transcript from the Scottish Parliament are shown at the bottom of this post.
This of course is the flipside of the ballyhoo that comes around when a politician calls the SNP xenophobes or their party conferences hate fests; it is the perfect situation to whip up as much fury and as many headlines as one can to do down the other side. The point that Joan McAlpine was trying to make was wholly separate to what “anti Scottish†as a standalone phrase actually means, but she uttered those words and the rest, as they say, is history. One could argue it either way but they’d be getting precisely nowhere as a result. I guess this is the risk that Alex Salmond has always faced when so many untried and untested amateurs fell into the Scottish Parliament on that crazy night in May. This won’t be the last such occasion where a storm is created over little more than clumsy wording.
I’ve read some more of the transcript from yesterday, not something that I often do, but the standard of debate in general is woeful, even fist-bitingly embarrassing in parts. You can read below the shameless, unnecessary bragging from the SNP about a few hundred new members and there was the charge from Kezia Dugdale that the SNP wants votes at 16-17 for the referendum but hasn’t brought forward legislation at a council level before John Swinney gently pointed out that that power is reserved. Awkward. My personal favourite was this one though:
Humza Yousaf (SNP): I commend the Scottish Labour Party for bringing up today’s debate. What subject could be more important than Scotland’s future? Although I cannot support the motion because of its obvious flaws, it is at least an attempt to engage with the debate, which is a refreshing change from the usual apocalyptic, scaremongering and fear-driven negativity that seems to come from Castle Grayskull.
Patricia Ferguson (Labour): Labour members pointed out to me that Mr Yousaf got his analogy slightly wrong. Castle Grayskull was not some kind of dark, louring place that people took their inspiration from; it was the place where the good guys got their power. If Labour is being associated with Castle Grayskull we are quite happy to accept that.
The main surprise that yesterday’s debate had in store was just how often Twitter was mentioned, primarily used to take errant messages and bash an MSP over the head with. It’s just so lousy. I know that we tried manfully to keep a Worst Motion of the Week debate going (and still intend to, watch this space) but if the poor standard of debate has percolated down into business-as-usual in the chamber itself, then there is not much to be done.
As to ourselves here at Better Nation, we have been informed on many an occasion by numerous people that they’d rather not write a guest post or rather not leave a comment as they don’t want their head bitten off by ‘cybernats’. For me, this is all wrapped up as part of the same problem – MSPs unable to act like mature, constructive professionals in the Parliament parallels the inability to hold a calm, considered debate online (I mean, goodness, just witness the Scotsman comments section; a tar that we have supposedly been brushed with sadly, rightly or wrongly).
So, getting to the overarching point of this post, and in a bid to stymie any further unhelpful â€anti-Scottish†or “xenophobe†slurs and ensure that the intended positive, non-partisan nature of this blog strives (or should I say is revived), the comments policy that was created recently will be more strictly enforced going forwards. We generally enjoy the rough and tumble of the comments section but content is king and if there is a point that any reader would dearly like to make, we all believe that a guest post with space to develop a point is often a better way to contribute to the debate than to leave a longer comment, so please consider this option if you do check this website regularly, or even just occasionally.
This isn’t a Nationalist blog, it isn’t a Unionist blog and it isn’t even a Green blog any more as we once passed it off as; it is a Scottish blog, and, as should be the case in the Scottish Parliament despite Joan McAlpine’s assertions, views are not illegitimate just because of where they lie on the Union-independence spectrum.
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Joan McAlpine (SNP): Will the member take an intervention?
Ruth Davidson (Conservative): On the idea of reasonable argument—yes, absolutely.
Joan McAlpine: Since David Cameron’s intervention in the referendum debate, 300 people have joined the SNP. How many people have joined the Conservative Party?
Ruth Davidson: We are in the middle of a very big membership drive, and I would ask anybody who has an interest in centre-right politics to join the Conservative Party.
Let us talk about that reasonable debate, because there is an ugly side to the argument that has been made in recent days, and it has come not from the Prime Minister but from the very member who has just intervened. I am sad to say—it probably says more about me than it does about anyone else—that I follow Joan McAlpine on Twitter, and I know that she has tweeted that Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives are “anti-Scottishâ€. That type of ignorant, petty nationalism is an insult not only to us but to Scots up and down the country. I know the difference between patriotism and nationalism, and I do not doubt for one moment the desire of all patriots and nationalists to do what they think is best for Scotland. However, the narrow opinion that the only true Scots are those who believe in separation is demeaning to those who peddle it and an insult to the majority of people who live here. Ms McAlpine’s intervention is a sign of how the SNP mask can slip: a sign of SNP members’ desire to play the politics of grudge and grievance, to complain when they do not get their own way and to act as if they own the hearts and souls of all Scots and as if only Alex Salmond can speak for Scotland.
(later)
Joan McAlpine: As for the Conservative group leader’s assertion that those who suggest that what is happening is anti-Scottish are somehow narrow in their politics, I make absolutely no apology for saying that the Liberals, the Labour Party and the Tories are anti-Scottish in coming together to defy the will of the Scottish people and the democratic mandate that they gave us to hold a referendum at a time of our choosing, which, as the First Minister said, would be the latter half of the parliamentary session. The sight of those parties cosying up on the sofas of various Scottish television studios will really alarm the people of Scotland.
Neil Findlay (Lab): I think that the member should seriously consider what she is saying. Given what opinion polls suggest is the view of the vast majority of the Scottish people, is she suggesting that they are not patriotic and do not love their country? If she is, that is an utter disgrace.
Joan McAlpine: I did not address my comments to the people of Scotland; I addressed my comments to the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats, who—thank goodness—do not represent the people of Scotland and were in their entirety outpolled by the SNP last year, as the First Minister said.
The anti-independence parties stood together against Scottish democracy yesterday in Westminster. That will be no surprise to the people of Scotland, because for four years between 2007 and 2011 those parties stood together to stop a referendum. Now they want to dictate the terms of a referendum. They want to exclude the young people of Scotland from choosing their future, but their elderly Labour peers down south say that they should have a say, even though they do not live here. The electorate told Labour what they thought of that strategy last May, but Labour seems to have learned nothing.
(later)
Jackson Carlaw (Conservative): I am a proud Scot and an elected member of this chamber and I have every right to be an active participant in this debate, which is what I intend to be. The claim by the SNP that those who vote SNP have some additional pride or more moral authority, or a birthright to speak on behalf of the people of Scotland, is offensive. If you spoke against someone who was gay, you would be homophobic. If you spoke against someone who was black, you would be racist. If you say that people are anti-Scottish because they belong to a different political party, that is a form of political racism, which is absolutely disgraceful and has no part in our politics. I suppose that, in the words of the Deputy First Minister, I should be relaxed about that type of remark, because it is what will win the argument for those of us who believe in the union.
#1 by Douglas McLellan on January 13, 2012 - 12:33 pm
As an avid He-Man watcher and even owner of He-Man, RamMan, Fisto(!) and Sy-Clone I am constantly surprised that Castle Greyskull is seen as a bad place.
That said, the quality of the referendum debate is deteriorating from its low starting place at a rate of knots and all sides are to blame. Ruth Davidson made a closely similar comment yesterday with the terms nationalists and patriots.
Both sides need to move away from the hyperbole and debate the technicalities.
#2 by James on January 13, 2012 - 1:07 pm
I had to check Fisto out.
#3 by Aidan on January 13, 2012 - 1:16 pm
I so didn’t remember him at all. Modulok is clearly where it was at though.
#4 by Alec on January 13, 2012 - 2:30 pm
I bet you did, you little rascal!
~alec
#5 by Alec on January 13, 2012 - 1:23 pm
I’m a bit lost as to whence comes the Castle Greyskull analogy. Is it a mediocre remark based on some television programme?
~alec
#6 by Allan on January 13, 2012 - 11:39 pm
Of course it was a bad place, it was the home of Skeletor & Evil Lynn…
#7 by John Ruddy on January 14, 2012 - 6:49 pm
And that is why John Smith House is called Castle Greyskull – because some nationalists think that the HQ of the party which contains Jim Murphy should be called that.
This sort of petty name calling is pathetic, and typical of the standard of debate that passes on many newspapers comment pages. It is quite right that Nicola Sturgeon is called on to condemn it – on a national TV programme, and telling that instead of slapping down Joan Mac Alpine, squirms to avoid doing so.
#8 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 6:52 pm
Errr, Greyskull was where He-Man etc lived. Skeletor & Evil Lynn lived in Snake Mountain.
#9 by Allan on January 14, 2012 - 8:27 pm
Are you sure Aidan, or are you trading on the fact that I was a bit more of a Transformers geek at that point? 🙂
#10 by Doug Daniel on January 15, 2012 - 1:19 am
He’s right. I actually posted that myself yesterday, but for some reason the comment either didn’t appear or was removed?
#11 by David Fagan on January 13, 2012 - 12:40 pm
Good, measured piece Jeff. I hope that you are successful in your aim of maintaining robust, rational and non-abusive debate here on Better Nation. God knows, it needs to happen somewhere.
#12 by CW on January 13, 2012 - 12:52 pm
Certainly one obvious problem with twitter is that people can open their mouths before they think in what is now an open forum. Politicians should always bear that in mind. Tom Harris is also guilty of this. Similarly, I think politicians should ease up on the popular culture. It’s not really got anything to do with their jobs, or serious debate, yet so many seem to think that it will make them more appealing to bang on about the X-Factor or Doctor Who when frankly, I couldn’t care less. But I do think that politicians need to mind their rhetoric here, some of the things that are being said are not appropriate. The last thing we want to do is disenfranchise the electorate from such an important decision by lowering the level of debate, usually in an intemperate manner.
#13 by holyroodpatter on January 13, 2012 - 12:56 pm
A truly unedifying spectacle yesterday,
Be interesting to see the caveat of Ruth Davidsons (I will take an intervention on the grounds of a reasonable argument) actually become Parliamentary Policy.
To be honest, Carlaws comments were just as bad
#14 by Barbarian on January 13, 2012 - 1:16 pm
I agree with David. Better Nation’s strength is that the comments are balanced, and people can feel “safe” to criticise any party without immediately being attacked.
On Joan McAlpine’s comments, they were inappropriate, despite the context. Salmond would never utter such a comment, but phrase it in such a way as “Tories are denying the Scottish people” etc etc.
Things were blown out of proportion yesterday, but today we have Ms McAlpine reiterating her comments. That is a mistake, since it simply gives ammunition to her opponents.
I’ve previously said that the more fundamentalist nationalists are the SNP’s worst enemy. However, I did not expect the problem to come from an MSP.
Wonder who will be next, and from what party!
#15 by Doug Daniel on January 13, 2012 - 1:23 pm
Context is everything. I have yet to read anything by Joan that calls people who don’t believe in independence as anti-Scottish, and I certainly can’t see her doing so in the transcript above. She is saying that the actions of those three parties were detrimental to the democratic will of the people of Scotland, who last May gave the SNP a majority in a parliament that is not meant to have majorities, and therefore a mandate to carry out their manifesto in its entirety. These actions – trying to deny the people of Scotland the referendum they voted for – are acting against the Scottish people. They are, therefore, anti-Scottish actions.
Joan’s only crime was in the poor wording, which enabled unionists to pick out half a quote and take it completely out of context. She should perhaps have said ” the Liberals, the Labour Party and the Tories have acted in a manner which is anti-Scottish”, or maybe just not used the term anti-Scottish at all as it is clearly far too easy for people to latch onto it and claim she is saying something she isn’t.
Jackson Carlaw’s response is particularly loathsome, as were the actions of Douglas Alexander in Question Time last night in badgering Nicola Sturgeon the way he did. Indeed, I doubt anyone in the audience had a clue what he was even on about, which is probably partly why he was getting such a negative reaction on Twitter, especially from female viewers. This from a man who claims he wants a “different debate”.
I’m afraid what this episode shows is that people are going to have to watch what they say over the next 1000 days, scrutinising every word before they utter it, looking for the various ways it can be taken out of context.
#16 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 1:44 pm
Well we are just naive I guess Doug believing that old chestnut that, you know, the voters are never wrong.
Sometimes it appears the voters can be wrong – such as when they give the SNP a mandate to do something that other parties don’t like.
#17 by Jeff on January 13, 2012 - 1:54 pm
Noone is disputing the fact that the SNP has a mandate to hold a referendum.
#18 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 2:29 pm
Yes Jeff they are. Why is the UK Government consulting on a referendum on independence if it is the Scottish Government that has a mandate to hold one?
Why is the UK Government setting out the terms for a referendum on independence if it is the Scottish Government that has a mandate to hold one?
And why are Labour backing them?
You know it doesn’t matter if you agree with the SNP or independence or even whether we ought to have a referendum. People ought to be capable of recognising that the voters of Scotland collectively decided to give the SNP a mandate on this and that should be respected by the other parties – not on the basis that they respect the SNP but on the basis that they respect the outcome of the election. In the immediate aftermath of the election they did say that – remember the whole “respect” agenda?
#19 by Aidan on January 13, 2012 - 3:42 pm
Because the Scottish Government has an, at best, disputable legal ability to hold one and the UK government is consulting on the best way of ensuring that the referendum isn’t challenged in court.
That’s not disputing the SNPs mandate to hold a referendum, that’s seeking to enable it to deliver a promise which was, again arguably, perhaps not actually within it’s gift to promise.
#20 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 4:07 pm
I am sorry but that is not true.
The UK Government is consulting on the date on which the referendum should be held, it is consulating on the questions that should be put on the ballot paper, it is consulting on who should be entitled to vote, at what age they should be entitled to vote, what body should oversee the referendum etc.
What business does it have to consult on any of those things – especially when it knew perfectly well that the Scottish Government was drawing up a detaled consultation which would address all of those issues?
The fact is that if the UK Governent wanted to absolutely guarantee that there could be no legal challenge it could have offered to use a Section 30 Order without putting any conditions on it.
#21 by John Ruddy on January 14, 2012 - 6:53 pm
And since none of those things were in the SNPs manifesto (especially NOT the date) then of course those things are up for discussion. Or do you really think that the people of Scotland (and I mean ALL the people of Scotland) are happy that the SNP have taken on the mantle of Guardian?
I am reminded of Louis XIV – the Sun King – L’etat – c’est moi!
#22 by Indy on January 14, 2012 - 9:55 pm
Of course everything up for discussion – the date, the question(s), everything. The Scottish Government has only set out its preferred date and indicated its preferred format. Nothing is finally decided though and views will be sought across civic Scotland.. That is the whole purpose of the consultation that is going to be launched in a couple of weeks.
Honestly you have some nerve taking that line when your party has backed the TORIES in trying to dictate terms and rule out any real engagement with bodies like the STUC and SCVO simply out of spite against the SNP.
#23 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 4:27 pm
And incidentally Aidan I look forward to hearing Labour explain to the STUC. SCVO etc why they ate lining up with George Osborne et al in arguing that there is no need to even ASK people if they want to see a question on Devo Max on the ballot paper. Just rule it out from on high,eh? That’s how to win civic Scotland to your side.
#24 by cynicalHighlander on January 14, 2012 - 6:38 pm
An open letter to David Cameron telling him why he is mistaken
I believe members of all political parties in Scotland signed the Claim of Right document which is I believe has a legal standing.
#25 by John Ruddy on January 14, 2012 - 6:54 pm
Now, I’m not an expert on the Claim of right, but where does it say that any party (whether SNP or Labour) has the right to act as if their policy is that of the people of Scotland?
#26 by cynicalHighlander on January 14, 2012 - 9:01 pm
The Claim of Right of 1988
We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount.
#27 by Indy on January 14, 2012 - 10:41 pm
No party has a right to do that. Which makes it all the more inexplicable that your party is backing the Tories in trying to dictate conditions on the independence referendum (which have absolutely nothing to do with any imagined legal issue) before the people of Scotland have even been consulted by their Government.
#28 by Jeff on January 13, 2012 - 3:47 pm
You seem to be suggesting that non-SNP MSPs shouldn’t even bother turning up to work and that David Cameron, PM of the entirety of the UK last time I checked, should leave Scotland alone. That’s hardly realistic, or fair.
Yes, the SNP won a mandate to hold a referendum and no one is disputing that but did they win the right to have carte blanche over whether it would be a two question referendum or a three question one? Did they win a mandate to hold it in the second half of the Parliament as they claim despite that not being in the manifesto or are unionist parties justified in pointing out the potential damage to the economy that delaying may cause? Does the SNP alone have the power to legally bulletproof the result of the referendum or is there merit in Westminster and Holyrood working together to that end?
That’s all debatable and that is the debate that is unfolding , as it should do. Alex Salmond might want to continuously claim that it’s ‘my ball’ and Joan McAlpine might want to go further and try to take that ball home but the SNP weren’t quick in coming forward on what the plans were until Cameron, pleasingly but clumsily, bounced them into it and got the ball rolling.
You can look back to May 2011 and call sanctuary on these issues as much as you please, but the world only spins forwards and the SNP’s manner and demeanour won’t count for much in votes down the line if it continues down the path that was tread yesterday. So yes, if most Scots agree with your view that the May ’11 mandate is all encompassing then you’ll benefit from their sympathy but equally there’s a risk that, however much those in the SNP go on about this special mandate (obtained with less than 50% of the popular vote I hasten to add), if Cameron, Clegg, Lamont etc are perceived to be being reasonable and putting sensible points forward, and they get shouted down by the SNP, then you’ll come a cropper in Autumn 2014 and where’s your mandate then?
That, for me, is the reality of the situation.
#29 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 4:16 pm
No – see my remarks to Aidan. I am suggesting that the Scottish Parliament should be in charge of the referendum – not Westminster.
I really wonder what you thnk the UK consultation on the referendum is all about. Why do you think they are asking people for their opinions on things like the question to be asked, who should be able to vote, the timing of polling day etc?
What do you think that is all about? Are they going to meekly hand over the responses to the Scottish Government and say there you go? What on earth would be the point of that when they knew for a fact that the Scottish Government was getting ready to launch a consultation on exactly the same thing?
#30 by scottish_skier on January 13, 2012 - 9:32 pm
“I am suggesting that the Scottish Parliament should be in charge of the referendum – not Westminster”
Yes, this is the basic principle for such situations under international law.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/cartoon/dr_matt_qvortrup_scotland_does_not_need_permission_to_go_it_alone_1_2047506
The control of independence referenda should be entirely in the hands of the people of the country seeking indepedence. The reasons for this are very obvious and the UK is not a special case somehow.
Any unwanted interference in the referendum process by the UK government is a breach of international law (e.g. UN CCPR).
#31 by John Ruddy on January 14, 2012 - 6:56 pm
And strangely enough, that is what David Cameron wants! he wants to give you the legal authority to carry out your referendum!
Quite a few (non-political people who voted SNP) who I have talked to about this seem perplexed as to why it seems to be a problem for the SNP. “Looking a gift Horse in the mouth” was one expression.
#32 by cynicalHighlander on January 14, 2012 - 9:09 pm
And strangely enough, that is what David Cameron wants! he wants to give you the legal authority to carry out your referendum!
Not a problem in itself but it is the strings attached that are the problem like here’s a fiver now that will only cost you a tenner.
#33 by Alec on January 13, 2012 - 4:53 pm
Indy, there’s been a lot of dispute over the past 2,500 years about what democracy means, but one thing is certain… it is not the tyranny of the majority over the a minority. There remain 51 non-SNP MPs, and even the SNP ones were not elected on the 2011 Holyrood Manifesto.
The only certainty to take from the May 2011 elections was that voters thought the SNP were the better choice to be in Holyrood. Maybe they liked their preformance/promises on education, health, law and order and other domestic issues.
If you think the inclusion of the caveat about a referendum means it should be brought, that’s fine. It’s just that unyielding adherence to that should come with calls for 100% compliance on all other manifesto points: lest you want to look insincere.
And, if we’re getting _really_ picky, the manifesto statement does _not_ stipulate sole SNP control over a referendum. It didn’t even stipulate which half of the Parliament it should be held in.
~alec
#34 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 5:17 pm
Alec – all your points are true but to make this really simple the pledge to hold a referendum on independence was made in manifesto by a political party standing in the May 2011 elections for the Scottish Parliament.
Westminster is another parliament in another place, elected in different elections and there is not single MP there – apart from SNP and Plaid – elected to hold a referendum on independence. Not a single one.
Do you get that?
#35 by Alec on January 13, 2012 - 5:50 pm
Stop playing dumb, Indy. You know there’s a credible argument to make that arranging any referendum – let alone one directed by the SNP – was not within the power of Holyrood, according to the results of the 1997 referendum (voted on by Scottish voters, if the point must be impressed).
Westminster is a Parliament with representatives sent by Scottish voters on different terms. Until those representatives are replaced with others on your desired terms, you have a conflict to deal with.
Thus, the 2011 manifesto could have promised free ice-cream machines for all, or every hat to have a feather stuck in it and called macaroni, but if an SNP administration in Holyrood was not in a position deliver it under their preferred terms, the fault lies with them just as much as it does with one manipulative parent who promises all and sundry to a child and then seeks to pass blame to the other parent when difficulties arise.
It already has been seen how the initial insistence that the manifesto specified a timescale has been redefined. Likewise, no-one here is disputing that a referendum should be held, or that there should be input from the SNP administration in Holyrood; are we seeing your preample to changing the terms of previous claims to the contrary?
~alec
#36 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 9:44 pm
There may be a credible argument to be made but that is an argument that should be made by the opposition in the Scottish Parliament and if necessary tested in the courts.
You have no more idea than I have whether there would have been any legal challenge to the Scottish Government’s referendum and what the outcome would have been, if so. So that is a red herring.
The fact is that the UK Government has attempted to usurp something that is not in their remit. It is the equivalent of the Scottish Government launching a consultation on the Crossrail Project in London or the voting system to be used in the London Mayoral elections.
#37 by Shave on January 13, 2012 - 2:00 pm
From her website:
“Joan McAlpine… is a former Scottish Journalist of the Year and has edited The Sunday Times in Scotland and was deputy editor of The Herald”.
So, not someone you would expect “clumsy wording” from.
#38 by James on January 13, 2012 - 4:40 pm
Yup, she knew what she was saying when she invoked the shade of Senator Joe McCarthy and the HUAC.
#39 by Dr William Reynolds on January 13, 2012 - 2:03 pm
Barbarian,I am one of the SNP’s fundemental nationalist,so you also need to think carefully about your choice of words,since I do not regard our unionist opponents as being anti Scottish.I also believe that is not what Joan McAlpine meant.She was alluding to the extent to which some politicians were prepared to ignore the verdict of Scottish voters last MAy,and to put party politics and other self interests before the expressed will of the people.
I take the point of this article that Joan McAlpine words were unfortunate.I know that she was referring to some politicians who were frustrating the will of the Scottish electorate by ignoring the overwhelming mandate given to the SNP in May 2011.This is evidenced by the tendency of members of the unionist parties in the past few days to side with David Camerons desire to dictate the conditions around the referendum.Of course Joan was correct to point that out.However,while I respect Joan McAlpine,I would advise her to be careful about her choice of language,
#40 by Ken on January 13, 2012 - 2:08 pm
@JoanMcApline: “last poll had SNP on 51%, perhaps because of the negative anti scottish behavior of unionist parties”
She could have made her point as strongly without the words ‘anti scottish’. But she chose to specifically include them. Accusing political parties (and by extension their supporters and voters) of being anti-[insert country here] is an extremely dangerous thing to do.
It’s what the quite rabid right wing of US politics do, and it in turn infects and pollutes the political and civil discourse by creating a clear ‘us’ and ‘them’ – those who are patriots and those who are near treasonous. It’s nasty and not needed in Scotland.
(And she used the American spelling of behaviour – clearly just to annoy any grammar nazis…)
#41 by Alec on January 13, 2012 - 2:33 pm
And she said “last poll”… you mean, there’ll be no more?
~alec
#42 by setindarkness on January 13, 2012 - 2:08 pm
“it isn’t even a Green blog any more as we once passed it off as”
This makes me a bit sad. I’d hoped that Better Nation would be leading the discussion about what sort of (better) nation Scotland could become.
And what made this blog set apart from the rest was that bit of green-ness.
(ooops, nearly clicked that “notify me” button; close shave)
#43 by Aidan on January 13, 2012 - 2:23 pm
Always happy to take greeny guest posts *hint hint* 🙂
#44 by James on January 13, 2012 - 4:40 pm
Don’t worry, I’m not really obsessed with the constitution – and this blog remains at least 25% enthusiastically Green with that capital G.
#45 by Barbarian on January 13, 2012 - 2:39 pm
I’ve just re-read Yousaf’s phrase about “Castle Grayskull”!
What’s next? Some comparisons with Thundercats? (showing my age a bit here)
#46 by Kezia Dugdale on January 13, 2012 - 2:45 pm
Jeff,
Enjoyed the post but think it’s more than a little disingeneous to suggest that i went in to that debate not knowing that the SNP didn’t have the power to reduce the voting age to 16.
The point I was making is that I don’t remember them shouting from the rooftops before now. Yes – the argued for the control of elections to be devolved but that’s a much larger issue.
As I understand it, the SNP could have requested a s.30 order on the matter – but never did.
Nor did they seek to address a number of other issues I mentioned in the speech.
Anyway – hope your well!
Kez
#47 by Jeff on January 13, 2012 - 3:14 pm
Apologies if I’ve misrepresented you Kezia. I of course could only skim read through most of the document but below is the part that I was referring to, my thinking being that you were suggesting that the SNP hasn’t used its power in the past five years to give 16-17 year olds the vote but now that a referendum is on the table they are suddenly in favour.
What I don’t understand is, if you are in favour of 16-17 year olds voting, and the SNP is in favour of it, why is there discord between the two of you on this issue of all issues? That’s part of the impasse in Scottish politics that I was trying to get at.
But I’ll edit the post as I’ve obviously got the wrong end of the stick from the below.
Hope you’re well too!
Kezia: SNP members make a credible case for young people being democratically involved in the most significant decision that our country will take for centuries, but critical decisions that affect young people’s livelihoods and life chances and the health and wealth of their families will be taken in council chambers, and the SNP has done nothing to progress the issue in respect of elections to them in a matter of months.
#48 by John Ruddy on January 14, 2012 - 6:59 pm
The problem Jeff, is that the first we have really heard from the SNP on this is in regard to the referendum. As Kezia said, they could have asked for it for the council elections – it probably would have been given (maybe more likely before May 2010 than now, but i still think the current administration would be sympathetic).
They didnt.
People should draw their own conclusions from that – and it may not be pleasing to the SNP.
#49 by Jeff on January 14, 2012 - 7:02 pm
That was then and this is now. If votes for 16-17 year olds are right for all elections then they are right for this referendum, and the next election that any legislation can be turned around in time for is the referendum.
This power is reserved and Labour had 13 years to do something about it. It’s not great form to tell another party what it should or shouldn’t have been asking for in the past, or at any time. Either disagree with what the SNP is proposing or get on board, you can’t have both.
#50 by Gaz on January 15, 2012 - 1:19 pm
That is rubbish John.
Go and read up on the propsoed reforms to appointment / election of Health Boards. You will find that it was proposed that all 16 and 17 years olds are given the vote.
That discussion was started well over 4 years ago now.
#51 by An Duine Gruamach on January 13, 2012 - 3:28 pm
I’m surely not the only person who gets a little depressed by the media (especially the online media) pretending that what someone said on Twitter is news. It isn’t.
#52 by Alex Grant on January 13, 2012 - 3:48 pm
To suggest that because a political decides to implement a policy that it supports at an opportune moment is any way unusual or illigitimate is to say the least hypocritical. And as was suggested yesterday it is certainly undemocratic! And I have to say it is certainly anti the interests of Scottish youth if not the Scottish people. Pity she gave Unionists the opportunity to try to defend the indefensible
#53 by gavin on January 13, 2012 - 4:42 pm
This is by way of a little aside. Did anyone else hear Milibant claim that housing benefit should be regionally assessed? So London claimants could claim more. This would be the first step in other benefits and presumably wages. This would have huge implications for us all. Most of all how Labour is percieved.
#54 by Cameron on January 13, 2012 - 4:44 pm
Why are politicians still using twitter? Hasn’t it proven to be a far larger liability than a potential benefit?
#55 by Kezia Dugdale on January 13, 2012 - 4:48 pm
Hi Jeff,
I canwhy you’d think – but there was an earlier recognition in the debate, from both sides I think, that the power wasn’t there in Scotland.
My point was simply that I hadn’t heard any requests for it either.
Arguably more said by SNP on this issue in last 4 days than in last 4 years. All i was suggesting.
Hope you have a great weekend.
#56 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 5:22 pm
Let’s run though what is going to happen now. The UK Govt has launched its paper on a referendum on independence (a policy both government parties have consistently opposed – it goes without saying that the only reason they would ever even have dreamt of doing such a thing is to spike the SNP’s guns. It’s short and who knows who it has gone to. The UK Govt has made clear its intention to impose its own conditions on the referendum – ruling out any consideration of Devo Max, ruling out allowing 16 and 17 year olds on the register to vote etc. That consultation, such as it is, ends on March 9th when it will announce how it intends to proceed.
Meanwhile the Scottish Government consultation on the Scottish Government policy of holding a referendum on independence – a consultation paper which has been a lot longer in preparation than the UK one – will be launched in a couple of weeks time. It will be big. It will be comprehensive. Who knows, it may even be the teeniest bit exciting. Crucially it will rule nothing out, it will be genuinely seeking views and genuinely providing opportunities for the people, not the political elite, to shape the referendum.
It will go out to the whole of civic Scotland, you can bet your butt on that, every charity, every professional organisation, every trade union, every voluntary organisation, every business organisation, every church, every local authority etc etc. It will be supplemented by a well planned and well organised reach out exercise by the SNP in every community. And this consultation will still be ongoing when the UK Government announces how it intends to completely ignore what civic Scotland thinks and wants by dictating the terms of the referendum from London before the Scottish Government consultation is even over. Labour will just have to line up wth the Tories and Lib Dems on that one as it will be too late to change tack.
Then the fun begins.
#57 by Ben Achie on January 13, 2012 - 5:55 pm
The referendum date was bound to be firmed up sooner rather than later, given the SNP (and everyone else in Scotland) is gearing up for the council elections, and seemed to me to be announced on the basis of “and here is one I prepared earlier”!
Alex Salmond was just awaiting the most opportune time to announce it currently, and he did so, down to the minute! This should become obvious when the consultation document is issued. It is making fascinating watching, as the major issues in dispute become more clearly defined.
Did Joan slip up? Yes, and it’s maybe worth remembering that journalists are reporters first rather than writers, or speakers. But I doubt if she’ll repeat this with any similar tweet, and she must have run off opinion pieces in the past to tight deadlines. Twitter can give even an experienced journo a sharp peck, though!
#58 by Barbarian on January 13, 2012 - 6:34 pm
She’s an MSP – not a journalist or blogger. She was not elected to Parliament to “report”. She is there to represent her constituents.
#59 by Observer on January 13, 2012 - 6:19 pm
I would be prepared to look on Ms McAlpine’s twitter comment as being akin to Diane Abbott’s if it wasn’t for the fact that I think she (McAlpine) *actually means it*.
Now you may think that the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, & the Tories are completely useless & without a clue. However that doesn’t mean they are anti-Scottish.
The assumption made when these kind of comments are passed is that there is somehow a kind of moral superiority in being a Scot who supports independence, as opposed to being a morally inferior Scot who doesn’t.
I know for a fact that assumption causes a great deal of offence to people who do not believe that Scotland should be independent.
This kind of stuff just doesn’t persuade anyone, it just gets their backs up so why are comments like that made?
I suggest an immediate training course for Joan McAlpine & the rest of the cybernats in how to make friends & influence people, not insult them.
#60 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 10:02 pm
Are you serious? Let’s put it this way. If the EU announced that it intended to hold a referendum in the UK to decide whether or not the UK would remain a part of the EU do you think Westminster politicians would just roll over and allow that? You only have to ask the question to know the answer.
Yet they are firmly convinced, most of them, that they have a perfect right to do that in Scotland. As Stephen Noon said they act towards Scotland in a way that they would not accept themselves. They simply do not have the same level of respect for the voting choices made by Scots in the context of a Scottish Parliament election as they do for the voting choices of Scots in the context of a Westminster election. Theirs is a two-tier version of democracy where Westminster reserves the right to intervene at any time.
Surely that is clear from the past few weeks events?
This has nothing to do with moral superiority or otherwise. It has to do with the fact that all three unionist parties in Scotland are backing the UK Government in this matter instead of the Scottish Government – why? Because they are so anti-SNP that they are prepared to overlook the fact that they are riding roughshod over the democratic choices made by the Scottish people.
Furthermore, the express position of all three unionist parties is that there is no need to seriously consult civic Scotland on what form they want the referendum to take,how many questions there should be etc. Rather than ask the people of Scotland, they want to proceed on the basis that all 4 major parties want a simple yes/no referendum and so that should be the end of the matter. No need to listen to anybody else – the decision should be taken by politicians and politicians alone on the basis of narrow party interest.
At the risk of sounding like a nationalist that is simply not how we do things in Scotland. The Scottish Parliament was not developed in that way and as far as the SNP is concerned the next steps should not be developed in that way either. That is why SG officials have been beavering away at a wide ranging consultation, one which was deliberately pre-empted by the UK Government in a clumsy attempt to close it down.
#61 by Don McC on January 14, 2012 - 3:56 pm
Observer, few would claim Abbot didn’t mean her comments either.
#62 by Barbarian on January 13, 2012 - 6:28 pm
Type your comment here
She knew very well what she was saying. What I am trying to point out, is that you cannot use language like that in Parliament, not if you are trying to prove you are mature enough to govern an independent Scotland.
There are huge dangers for the SNP.
I referred to the more “fundamentalist” nationalists (I am not referring to cybernats, I refer to politicians and supporters alike) because that is precisely what some people are – independence supporters at any cost. For example, there are those who are prepared to go into the EU just to break away from Westminster, even though Brussels is a corrupt pit that makes London look like a lesson in democracy.
The danger to the SNP is that they will end up appearing to want this – independence at any cost.
And the proposal to give 16/17 year olds a vote in the Referendum adds to this impression, along with Salmond’s demands that he controls the whole process.
Arrogance is creeping in from both sides as well, mainly by assuming that everyone will support their point of view. Reasoned debate is getting hidden.
One thing is for sure, Joan McAlpine is going to be watched liked a hawk by her opponents now, and the last thing Salmond needs is distraction from the main debate.
Next week should be interesting!
#63 by Ben Achie on January 13, 2012 - 6:44 pm
Naw, Observer (#40), I think she was just sloppy, and guess being closer to it, it was perhaps easy to get a bit carried away by the momentousness of what is going on, and the relative speed with which it has all happened. The issue is simply whether the Scots should make the decisions about the content of and participation in the referendum themselves, along with the supervision and timing. Because of the 2011election result that does mean pretty much what the SNP wants, and it is only now that this appears to have penetrated the minds of our Westminster orientated politicians. Hence the eventual Cameron pre-emptive strike, and the delayed howls of anguish now coming out. There will be concessions, but the momentum is undoubtedly with Salmond.
#64 by Observer on January 13, 2012 - 8:12 pm
Sorry Ben I am not buying it, as a long time reader of Ms McAlpine’s columns I am afraid she has fallen into the trap that a lot of cybernats have of viewing unionists as the enemy. Now fair enough, I suppose elected unionists are for her. But as an SNP politician she can’t act like a cybernat. She has to view unionists in the population as targets to be persuaded with charm & wit over to her side.
Instead of calling her political opponents anti-Scottish she has to expose what they are actually doing which is not in Scotland’s interests (in her opinion).
A bit hard to do that on twitter, convey complicated arguments in a few words, as Ms Abbott too found out.
#65 by Gaz on January 13, 2012 - 8:54 pm
We all know that what the Unionists are spinning is not what Joan McAlpine said. But…
The SNP has a fairly unfortunate history with journalists turned parliamentarians; look what happened with Margo and Dorothy-Grace.
I think the problem is that journalists develop their skills in a commercially competitive environment where how you say something is often much more important than what you are saying in terms of attracting readership.
That is a dangerous trait to have for a politician when, inevitably, a much more nuanced use of language is required to engage in debate and cultivate a consensus.
I am sure she will learn her lesson as she is fairly new to this particular game. (Of course, some people may have said that about Ian Davidson and Tom Harris many years ago too!!!)
And I am certain her wings will be clipped in the privacy of the dressing room. This is no time to have loose cannons around.
#66 by Indy on January 13, 2012 - 11:46 pm
It realy doesn’t matter what the unionists are spinning because it’s only ever short term. Here today, gone tomorrow. This spat is typical of that. The underlying issue is who controls the referendum, as well as how the referendum should be run, what the questions should be etc – and that’s going to be the subject of a massive consultation exercise and debate here in Scotland. And the more people get involved in that the more they feel an ownership of the process and the less it becomes a spectator sport. And that’s what the UK Govt will have to reckon with. Those, like Paddy Ashdown, who think this is just a war of egos between David Cameron and Alex Salmond couldn’t be more wrong. It’s going to be much bigger than that.
#67 by Dr William Reynolds on January 13, 2012 - 9:15 pm
Barbarian,I agree with most of what you are saying.However,I must disagree about your stereotyping of fundemendalists.I consider myself to be a fundementalist because I want independence now.However,I will go along with a gradual restoration of decision making powers to Scotland,if that is only what is available.For that reason,I voted yes in two referendums on devolution,not because it was what I wanted,but because I saw it as progress towards independence,
Of course we need reasoned debate.My concern is that some of the unionist opinion is anything but reasioned.I actually think that,at the moment they are being very defensive,That is interesting to someone who joined the SNP in 1974,who felt compelled to defend my reasons for wanting independence against a media that gave the impression that independence was abnormal.Regarding Joan McAlpine,I understand entirely that she was criticisinf politicians who were ignoring the will of the Scottish electorate.Unfortunetly she was careless with her language and gave unionists an opprtunity to divert the public view from the very important point that she was making.That point was illustrated very graphically by Keynyon Wright in hi letter to David Cameron.I don’t have the time or resources to provide links,but anyone interested can find it in todays contributions to Newsnet Scotland.I do not think that Joan(a highly intelligent women) will give the opponents of independence many other opportunities.
#68 by Barbarian on January 14, 2012 - 6:21 pm
I’m trying to avoid stereotyping, but I feel I’ve been influenced by some of the responses I get on a certain site whenever I try to question ANYTHING the SNP does. Hence the reason I rarely make an appearance. Being called a Tory was the final straw!
You are correct when you say unionist opinion is unreasonable, but not all of it. True, they are being defensive, but that is partly because I don’t think they have a solid strategy in place, whereas the SNP does.
I have issues with the SNP harping on about “the will of the Scottish electorate”, as if the vote in May was purely so that the Referendum could be held. That’s nonsense. Yes, people were certainly aware that a Referendum would be held, but the SNP were voted in because they have proven to be a more competent government. While competency counts for a lot when it comes to independence, it does not necessarily translate into votes (and the reverse is true).
I also have issues about unionist politicians bringing their personal views into the argument. What they should be discussing is how effective will the policies raised by the SNP be for an independent Scotland.
It’s extremely messy, and while serious negotiations WILL take place behind closed doors, the danger is that the public will start to lose interest, provoking some stupid statement by a junior politician and flaring things up again.
This is going to drag out for the next three years. Why the hell did Alex not just hold the Referendum in November last year?
#69 by Angus McLellan on January 14, 2012 - 8:10 pm
Either we can want to have the questions discussed – to say they will be or could be “answered” would be misleading – which will indeed take time or we can prefer an immediate vote. But not both. And whatever your personal preference, spare a thought for those people who still don’t believe that there will be a referendum. They evidently need more time to catch up with reality.
Everybody needs to pick a position and stick with it as until now there have been – to put it as nicely as possible – a lot of mixed messages.
#70 by Indy on January 14, 2012 - 10:08 pm
I’m sorry but that is a completely unreasonable argument and one which is never used in any other context.
Can you give me a single example where an opposition politician in Westminster, for example,has said yes I know you won a majority but the fact is that does not give you a mandate to implement your manifesto because after all we do not know that every single person who voted for you agrees with every single policy in your manifesto. Therefore we are not going to accept that you have a democratic mandate to carry out your manifesto.
That simply does not happen and there is no justification for taking that position here.
#71 by Iain Menzies on January 14, 2012 - 11:47 pm
wasnt that the standard position taken by the lib dems..like…always?
#72 by Erchie on January 14, 2012 - 6:22 pm
It’s long past time you were honest about no longer being a Green blog, but are now “Labour and others” and that you limit responses by Nationalist posters
You should be more up front about it a while back
#73 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 6:47 pm
We limit responses for people being dicks. Don’t be a dick. Looking at the trash there’s nonsense from all perspectives, being a dick is not confined to one particular political perspective.
#74 by Jeff on January 14, 2012 - 7:03 pm
What Aidan said.
#75 by James on January 14, 2012 - 8:35 pm
Also, and no offence to my two Labour-supporting co-editors, I find the trajectory of the modern Labour Party from 1950-2012 to be one of the most depressing political tales ever told.
But it has to be said that those making the case for the Union (a position I oppose) tend to make it in consistently polite and respectful terms, something which a minority of our Nat-friendly commenters find themselves unable to do.
#76 by Gaz on January 14, 2012 - 8:46 pm
That’s interesting James.
Where did you see the case for the Union made in any terms (polite and respectful or otherwise) ? 🙂
#77 by John Ruddy on January 14, 2012 - 7:03 pm
I’m not sure it was ever a “Green blog” – but rather a blog about issues that could make Scotland a “better Nation” – or at least thats how I have read things.
Many of them will be environmental – but surely not all?
Thats like saying that NewsNet Scotland shouldnt talk about the environment, because it should only ever talk about independence.
#78 by Dr William Reynolds on January 14, 2012 - 8:10 pm
Okay Barbarian,I go along with most of what you are saying.However,the combination of the result of the Scottish election and surveys of public opinion do indicate that most Scottish voters want either full independence or Full Fiscal Autonomy.That is the context in which this article should have been placed,in order to understand the issue discussed.
Ketnyon Wright in hi letter to David Cameron pointed out that he misunderstood the mood of the Scottish people.Since Labour,Lib erals and Conservatives have supported Cameron,it is logical to assume that they all misunderstand the mood of the Scottish people,and the Claim of Rights.The Claim of rights acknowledges that the people of Scotland are sovereign and since they gave the SNP a huge majority it could be argued that the SNP government has a responsibility to deliver their wishes.That is what the SNP are attempting to do.They are also consulting with voters about how they would like things to be.Now David Cameron’s intervention challenges the idea of a claim of rights.This provoked Ketnan Wrights letter to Cameron and Joan McAlpines challenge to the unionist parties.She suggested that barriers to the will of the Scottish electors was anti Scottish,not that unionism was anti Scottish.I notice today that Henry McLeeish is cited in the Herald as saying something similat,when he pointed out that the intereference by Westminster in the Scottish referndum was against Scottish intersts,or words to that effect.I am waiting toi see whether he is going to be misrepresented in the same way that Joan McAlpine was.I doubt it very much,since politics is a very dirty business.It is sad really that politicians are more fiocused on nit picking around the margins and point scoring,rather than debating substantive issues,For example,Mr Balls,the labour Finance Minister is quoted today as saying that he fully supports the Tory cuts.I think this merits more detailed discussion,and I hope that Better Nation will pick it up.
#79 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 8:24 pm
Well, the SNP don’t have “huge majority”, they have 68 out of 129 seats, a majority of 8. They got this on less than 50% of the vote standing on a wide ranging manifesto that only very briefly mentioned the referendum and in no great detail.
As for Ed Balls, the Guardian interview is a bit garbled and he doesn’t help himself but he doesn’t actually say he “fully supports the Tory cuts” – he says that Labour can’t unilaterally commit to reversing them 3 years hence. That’s rather different. I’ll write something up about this when I get chance.
#80 by Gaz on January 14, 2012 - 8:43 pm
Dear dear Aidan – the SNP got 45% of the list vote in a 5 party (effectively 6 party in Lothian) system. That is possibly one of the most impressive feats in electoral history anywhere. Stop being so churlish.
Also remember on this particular issue the numbers (if you exclude the PO) are 71 out of 128 – a majority of 14 or over 11% of the total parliament, more than double what would be classified a marginal majority in constituency terms and I would therefore venture tending towards huge.
#81 by Indy on January 14, 2012 - 10:16 pm
Aidan the SNP majority was much bigger than any received by Labour when they were in office in Scotland. Now the SNP were in opposition during those two terms when Labour were in power.. Can you point to single instance when the SNP questioned that Labour and the Lib Dems had a mandate?
Because we never did. We may have opposed Labour policies, and opposed them vigorously, But we never questioned that, you know, they had won the election and had the right to put forward their programme of government.
That is basically what you are doing now and it’s sad to see.
#82 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 11:28 pm
No, I’m objecting to the SNP assertion that having a majority means they can steam roller the referendum. That’s not really the same thing.
#83 by Alex Buchan on January 15, 2012 - 2:38 am
That’s not what you said. you said the SNP don’t have a “huge majority”. As has been pointed out that in a PR elections split 4 ways, or 5 ways if you include the Greens, they do have a huge majority. There aren’t many states in Europe where, in a proportional system, governments are single party rather than coalitions.
#84 by Indy on January 15, 2012 - 8:46 am
I am sorry that is completely misleading. You and your party are supporting the UK Government trying to wrest control of the referendum from the Scottish Parliament – the only body which has a mandate to hold one.
This is basic stuff. The UK Government does not have a mandate to hold a referendum on independence. The Scottish Parliament does.
This is nothing to do with steamrollering. As I have said, there is going to be widespread consultation throughout Scotland on the referendum th format, the question(s), the franchise etc. Nothing has been ruled out by the Scottish Government – in contrast to the approach of the UK Government which has arrogantly assumed that it has the right to dictate what the questions will be and who willl be allowed to vote BEFORE THE CONSULTATION HAS EVEN STARTED.
And you are backing them in that. I find that truly inexplicable.
#85 by cynicalHighlander on January 15, 2012 - 9:29 am
Scottish Parliament general election, 2011
SNP 44.4% + greens 4.4% + Margo ?% = 48.8+% Indys
Lab 26.3% + Tory 12.4% + LDs 5.2% = 43.9% Unionists
#86 by Allan on January 14, 2012 - 8:47 pm
I think Balls made strides towards that position during his conference speech in September…
“A steadier, more balanced, medium-term plan to get the deficit down will still mean difficult decisions and tough choices in the years ahead that any government will face. Tough choices on tax and spending – like the cuts to welfare, education and Home Office budgets that we set out before the election.
Discipline in public and private sector pay. And no matter how much we dislike particular Tory spending cuts or tax rises, we cannot make promises now to reverse them. I won’t do that and neither will any of my Shadow Cabinet colleagues.”
#87 by Colin Dunn on January 14, 2012 - 8:37 pm
Barbarian:
“Yes, people were certainly aware that a Referendum would be held, but the SNP were voted in because they have proven to be a more competent government.”
That, I think is a little disingenuous. You complain about the SNP claiming everyone who voted for them did so because of the referendum, then claim to know the real reason was comptence.
I think the SNP are as justified in claiming the referendum vote as the reason for their success, though I think there are many other reasons too. My own (and I think one that was in many people’s minds, but hasn’t really been picked up much) is the balls-up of the AV vote. I’ve voted consistently for 30 years for supporters of voting reform, and this has got nowhere. The AV vote was the final straw. If we couldn’t even agree to take that tiny step, what real hope was there for fairer representation in the UK? I think the Tories really shot themselves in the foot, there, as if they’d given ground on voting reform for the UK the SNP’s majority might not have existed at all.
So I voted for the SNP. At least we have a reasonably representative voting system where my vote counted. As to he UK, that’s condemned to endless FPTP and the blue, red and orange Tories.
Colin
#88 by Allan on January 14, 2012 - 8:38 pm
On Ms McAlpine, i think that she chose the wrong words (a better description would be “undemocratic”)
However, i can see where she is coming from, which is more than can be said about Wee Dougie, the outraged Labour MP on “Call Kaye” and generaly “outraged from Pollok”. So many people don’t get that “Devo Max” (if we have to call it that) is really what most Scots would like – more substantial powers as opposed to Calman/the current Scotland Bill.
By the way, did I hear correctly that Gideon threatened to block Scotland adopting Sterling as its currency if we voted yes in the referendum?
#89 by Indy on January 15, 2012 - 9:01 am
Yes. He can’t do it but yes he threatened that. The gossip is that he will mastermind the antti-independence campaign. Quite extraordinary stuff. We can only assume that the opposition parties in Scotland don’t think they are up to it.
#90 by Dr William Reynolds on January 14, 2012 - 9:08 pm
I don’t have unlimited time to blog,but I have stayed with this thread because I felt that it misrepresented the issue.This is definetely my last shot at this but I do wonder whether Better Nation have a facility to advise me about responses to my comments?
Aiden may well want to talk down the SNP majority.I think that the size and diversity of the SNP election results would be considered to an impressive mandate in the context of UK politics,or in any election.In fact many commentators found it stunning.I certainly found it stunning and quite extrodinary.The referndum was mentioned more than briefly,Even if that was not true,the normal understanding is that if it is in the manifesto,the winning party has the right to implement it,The result is regarded as the will of the electorate,even if the majority is a minority of voters.I do not think that custom and practice should be changed just because the SNP won the election.
Regarding the Ed Balls statement,I welcome a response from Better Nation.However,I do hope that it will be objective and analytical.
#91 by Indy on January 14, 2012 - 9:59 pm
If that is the case can you please explain why the UK Government is consulting on the date of the referendum, the franchise, the format etc as well as indicating that it only intends to allow a yes/no question. And can you also explain why the UK Government launched its hastily put together consultation before the Scottish Government launched theirs. And when you have come up with a plausible explanation for that perhaps you can explain why your party is backing them to he hilt. Type your comment here
#92 by Ben Achie on January 14, 2012 - 10:13 pm
Erm, Colin, AV isn’t proportional, and it wasn’t in anybody’s manifesto as far as I am aware. Alex Salmond said he backed it, btw. I didn’t, and I’m a life long supporter of PR – one of those things the Lib-Dems used to claim they stood for, and for all I know, still do. But who cares? The Lib-Dems certainly don’t when it comes to a sniff of power. So, what have we got with a majority SNP government? Politicians delivering on their manifesto promises!
#93 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 11:29 pm
Weirdly a referendum on AV was promised in the Labour manifesto – weirdly because they were the one major party who didn’t end up in government.
#94 by Colin Dunn on January 15, 2012 - 10:30 am
No, I realise that and think you misunderstood me, or I explained myself badly.
The point I was trying to make was that there are many reasons why people voted for the SNP in May 2011, and not all them were because the voters were ‘natural’ SNP voters.
In my case, the failure of the AV referendum to improve representation across the UK (and I appreciate that this was only at best a slight improvement over FPTP) was the final straw after my voting for 30 years for parties which supported voting change. I have essentially given up on the UK now, and opted to vote for the SNP to get my main aim – fairer representation. Once this is achieved, I’ll then be able to cast my vote for the party I’d prefer, the Greens.
In FPTP and even Devo-Max, for me my Green vote is essentially wasted, as even under Devo-Max a Green vote in Scotland won’t have much moderating effect in the UK as a whole.
My final point was that by obstructing voting reform the Tory government is risking losing Scotland entirely. Had they compromised on fairer representation in Westminster elections then I probably wouldn’t have voted SNP and been (moderately) content to have Scotland stay part of the UK. As it is, I’ll be voting for the SNP for everything from now on to aid the push for independence, and then be able to vote the way I really want in the post-independence elections. I think there are quite a few people out there who did the same thing.
Colin
#95 by FormerChampagneSocialist on January 14, 2012 - 11:03 pm
Sunday telegraph says 40% yes 43% no. Game on!
#96 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 11:31 pm
Same telegraph poll on a wider, more direct question also says 26% in favour of independence, Game on!
#97 by FormerChampagneSocialist on January 14, 2012 - 11:58 pm
No doubt that it’s advantageous to be able to draft the question. Or questions.
#98 by cynicalHighlander on January 15, 2012 - 5:26 pm
The rest of the poll covered Scottish independence (which I’ll do a seperate post on later),
Generally paper interpretation of polls are taken with a large pinch of salt.
#99 by FormerChampagneSocialist on January 14, 2012 - 11:28 pm
Which is worse – Joan McAlpine’s comment, or Tom Harris creating and posting a video on Twitter in which Salmond is compared to Adolf Hitler?
looking forward to the outraged Scotsman headlines about that….
#100 by Aidan on January 14, 2012 - 11:31 pm
Eh?
#101 by FormerChampagneSocialist on January 14, 2012 - 11:47 pm
http://t.co/7PWe1np1
Pretty poor stuff.
#102 by Aidan on January 15, 2012 - 1:07 am
You’re getting butthurt about a downfall parody video?
#103 by Alex Buchan on January 15, 2012 - 2:41 am
You might want to reconsider that comment.
#104 by Aidan on January 15, 2012 - 9:08 pm
Thought about it, nope. If you’re going to get upset about a downfall video I suggest you get off the internet.
#105 by Don McC on January 15, 2012 - 11:01 pm
Yeah, it’s perfectly alright to refer to “wee eck” as the fuhrer but woe betide anyone referring to the labour party as anti-Scottish, even if Ed Milliband stands up and says “we on this side of the house agree with you [David Cameron] 100%” and Johan Lamont stands up and says she’d rather have the tories decide Scotland’s future than Holyrood. After all, what’s anti-Scottish about that?
Of course, if Cathy Jamieson refers to the tories as anti-Scottish (as she did during the 2010 election campaign), why, that’s fair comment. The labour party have zero credibility getting upset over McAlpine’s comments.
#106 by Aidan on January 16, 2012 - 12:02 am
See, you’re contrasting satire with, apparently, sincerely held beliefs. Not really the same thing…
#107 by Don McC on January 16, 2012 - 6:59 am
Was Cathy Jamieson’s comments satire as well? Labour have a record of likening the SNP to Nazis so was it really satire? If so, it was ill judged to say the least.
At least your party leader in Scotland has some sense (apparently more than those defending Tom’s actions) and has moved Tom on.
Had to happen eventually.
#108 by FormerChampagneSocialist on January 15, 2012 - 7:56 am
The point, as I’m sure you appreciate, is that double-standards are in full operation here.
No doubt there is CyberNat bile out there, but it pales into insignificance compared to the anti- Scottish comments seen below any article about Scottish independence in the Mail, Telegraph or Guardian.
The comments of random nutcases on either side are unimportant and are not news. Elected representatives on both sides need to be more careful.
#109 by Doug Daniel on January 15, 2012 - 2:23 am
What are you on about, FCS? Don’t you realise it’s perfectly acceptable for an elected politician to go about making Downfall parodies of the leaders of other parliaments? It’s probably just the first in a series he has, the next one will be Nicolas Sarkozy perhaps, or the Irish Taoiseach, or maybe even Angela Merkel (after all, no one would really think he was comparing her to Hitler – it’s just a Downfall parody!!!)
I hope you’re not suggesting that it’s one rule for the SNP and another rule for anyone else (Labour in particular). After all, I’m sure you’ll remember the massive punishment Ian Davidson got for calling the SNP neo-Nazis and for threatening to give a female colleague “a doing”.
I wish my MP would become a glorified internet troll like Tom Harris, it would make her so much more interesting, and perhaps I’d even vote for her!
#110 by Ken on January 15, 2012 - 1:12 pm
“or the Irish Taoiseach”
There were quite a few Downfall parodies on the issues of the Lisbon Treaty / Bertie / Brian Cowan and Enda over the years. And they were quite popular, amusing and widespread in Ireland. And no one kicked up a fuss about it – because it’s comedy.
#111 by Doug Daniel on January 15, 2012 - 7:13 pm
And these were made by MPs, aye?
#112 by Ken on January 15, 2012 - 7:32 pm
Sadly, Irish TD’s often don’t have the technological capacity to do proper political humour online. I really hope the new Dáil with it’s newer crop of TD’s can utilise modern technology a lot better – including humour. In any case, whether or not a TD did one is quite irrelevant to the fact it is political parody. Are politicians not allowed to participate in political satire? (Whether it’s satire of quality is entirely separate).
The fact people think parodies are off limits (or real) is illuminating in itself.
#113 by Doug Daniel on January 15, 2012 - 9:03 pm
I just think there’s a context that people have to be aware of. We all know that there are many in Labour who would love to expose the SNP as a bunch of anti-English nutters, and who feel that, deep down, nationalism is based on ethnicity. This is hardly helped by the fact that there are people in England especially who wrongly assume that the SNP are effectively a Scottish version of the BNP. Anyone who has had to explain the difference between the two opposing ideologies to someone will understand where I’m coming from there.
So, perhaps you can understand why nationalists can sometimes be a bit touchy about things like, oh I dunno, MPs standing up in commons and blasting that the SNP are neo-Nazis; Lords calling Salmond “Il Duce”; and MPs posting parody videos “starring” Salmond as Hitler. The Harris video might have passed by without much comment if it hadn’t been for the fact that there looks like a bit of a trend going on there, i.e. Labour politicians trying to “subtly” imply that the SNP’s are not so inclusive as we make out.
Not to mention the fact that satire only really works if it’s current – as someone said on Twitter, Downfall parodies are so 2008. If it had actually been funny, then it might not have looked like having a sense of humour bypass was part of the initiation into the SNP, but as it stands, it just looks like a pathetic attempt to grab some attention. But then, that’s what internet trolls do, isn’t it?
Are politicians allowed to participate in political satire? Well, if they’re any good at it perhaps, but generally their place in satire should be as the butt of the joke. I’m not entirely convinced that MPs should be making such videos about fellow parliamentarians.
#114 by Observer on January 15, 2012 - 1:43 am
The Downfall parody of all parodies was the one with Gordon Brown. That was so funny I nearly wet myself laughing. Those scenes in the bunker just lead to parody, but it was a bloody good film.
#115 by Craig Gallagher on January 15, 2012 - 9:59 pm
Your last point is an oft-forgotten truth. Downfall is undoubtedly my favourite German-language film…
#116 by Doug Daniel on January 16, 2012 - 1:01 am
I would say it’s my favourite German-language film not to star Daniel Brühl or be called Das Leben Der Anderen.