From the outside, the electoral college the Labour party uses to elect it’s leader does look odd. From the inside, however, when you’re filling in another set of codes from the 3rd of 4th ballot to vote on line it also looks odd. Having multiple votes is a pretty weird thing, especially when you’re not entirely sure what to do and might vote each way for the sheer devilry of it. In the end, Johann won despite Ken getting more votes in the party member section leading comrade Breslin to despair at a re-run of what’s perceived as the undemocratic foisting of Ed Miliband on the Labour party instead of his brother.
And fair enough the electoral college is undemocratic, unfair and needs to be reformed – the aberration of multiple votes because (in my case) you happen to be a member of the Co-operative Party and the Fabians as well as a party member is just weird. It’s all run by the ERS, they could be tasked with de-duping the names, and all votes could be given equal weight. Great, all for that, one member one vote, democracy in action, that sort of thing.
Presumably then, this would mean that Ken would have won? Well, no. Johann had far more ballots cast for her than any other candidate, and mostly by people who only had one vote – members of the trade unions. The electoral college was put in place to undemocratically disempower some parts of the party against others, but it’s the bits that voted for Johann (and Ed) that were disempowered so rather than winning because of the electoral college it’s more correct to say that they won despite the electoral college. Lallands Peat Worrier goes into some detail on the numbers over in his peaty place.
In order to get the “right” result there’s two ways to go about it. Firstly, Labour could increase the unfairness of the electoral college by putting more weight on the membership and elected members sections, but that hardly gels with the cry of “byzantine and unfair!” so let’s discount that option.
Alternatively we could exclude the individual members of the trade unions from voting. I know it’s a long held dream of the Tories to break the union link, and of the SNP to gather trade union support for themselves, and there’s even some within the Labour party who want to do away with it and it a “modern”, “professional” political party. Why should trade unionists get a say in the running of a political party? It’s not like they started it, it’s not like the party is there to represent working people, it’s not like it’s the parliamentary part of a much wider labour movement and union members an integral part of it.
Oh. Wait.
The union link has changed in the past, it’s been a long time since the days of the block vote for instance, and it needs to change again, most pertinently so that candidates are able to campaign in a meaningful way for their votes – at the moment by and large all people get is a small pamphlet and perhaps an endorsement from the affiliated organisation. The divergence in the way that the party members and the union members vote is interesting and probably hints at something deeper, perhaps related to the changing demography of the affiliated unions relative to the Labour party membership?
As for the canonical SNP members who vote, well, they’d have had to pay good money and swear they supported the Labour party – so well done for lying and ta for the cash. I’m really not sure we’ve got Johann Lamont (let alone Ed Miliband) because of an entryist movement of false flag union members, impressive though the SNP machine is. If people are crowing about getting a ballot for “the enemy” then the best response is probably mild mockery for their vaguely infantile behaviour.
So, wrong leader? Only in the sense that Alex Salmond is the “wrong” First Minister because you’d have preferred somebody else to win, it’s not because of the voting system. Not unless you have a fundamentally different conception of what the Labour party actually is.
#1 by Gregor on December 21, 2011 - 10:44 am
“From the outside, the electoral college the Labour party uses to elect it’s [sic] leader does look odd.”
Indeed it does!
“As for the canonical SNP members who vote, well, they’d have had to pay good money and swear they supported the Labour party – so well done for lying and ta for the cash. ”
But therein lies the rub. I know of SNP Cllrs and the like who all received ballot papers. These people are *not* in the political fund. They do not pay anything towards the Labour party. They have not lied. The same goes when it comes to election time, I know people of all parties who still get Labour bumff through their Unions…
Some are obviously better than others in this regard, but if I were the Labour party I would be checking up very closely about who was and who wasn’t in the political levy fun, and who should and shouldn’t be voting.
On the matter as a whole though, I have no issue with the Unions having a say; they fund the party, it is to most extents their party, so that’s fine.
My issue is the strength of the Parliamentarian vote.. Why do these 80 men and women hold such a strong say? Why is their voice equally as important as 13,000 members or 300,000 Union affiliates?
#2 by Aidan on December 21, 2011 - 10:45 am
In order to vote they’d have had to tick a box on the ballot paper saying they support the Labour party.
#3 by ianbeag on December 21, 2011 - 11:21 am
When can we have sight of the actual voting figures from each ‘division’? I understand this was done in the case of Ed. Miliband – why not here?
#4 by Aidan on December 21, 2011 - 12:41 pm
No idea, though I am curious why this has become a cybernat talking point over on #sp4…
#5 by BaffieBox on December 21, 2011 - 11:08 pm
Isnt it a talking point because there is a suspicion about Labour’s membership numbers they proudly championed a year or two back in response to the SNP membership? I presumed that was the reason anyway.
Ultimately though, what modern fair and free election doesnt release a full break down of results? If the Scottish or general elections just announced percentages, those in charge wouldnt last long.
Refusing to publish full numbers looks ridiculous no matter how you try to spin it, irrespective of whether they have something to hide or not. This is a party that wants to govern the country, right?
#6 by JPJ2 on December 21, 2011 - 12:26 pm
I think most people if asked (whether in the Labour Party or not) would instinctively agree that in the 21st century one member one vote is the best way in terms of democracy-it’s as simple as that.
The current process is just a further reason for believing that Labour are well behind the curve.
#7 by Aidan on December 21, 2011 - 12:42 pm
Oh, I’m all behind OMOV provided that the definition of “member” includes trade union members.
What I’m challenging is the notion that OMOV would have delivered a different result without also radically altering the nature of the Labour party by excluding union members.
#8 by JPJ2 on December 21, 2011 - 12:49 pm
“excluding trade union members”. They are not “excluded”-they simply have to directly join the party as people do with other political parties.
“radically altering the nature of the Labour Party”-frankly that is now your only hope in Scotland-feel free not to bother until independence forces it upon you 🙂
#9 by Aidan on December 21, 2011 - 2:37 pm
They’re currently part of the party, removing their right to vote is excluding them.
As for changing the party, yes, it does need to change – but breaking the link with the unions isn’t one of the ways that needs to happen.
#10 by Daniel J on December 21, 2011 - 2:49 pm
I don’t really see why members of other parties should attempt to dictate what ‘counts’ as membership. We’ve serious problems with political participation in this country and making it harder for people to join parties isn’t the way to go about it!
If anything we should be looking at how to encourage membership..
#11 by Andrew on December 22, 2011 - 12:09 pm
Well Labour do this themselves through their influence in many trade unions. I’m all for wider political participation and the unions provide a valuable mechanism for this for the Labour party. But union leadership (presumably Labour people) continue to prevent official links being built with other parties as an organisation and by individual members. This reduces influence with other parties, prevents members becoming more politically engaged and can also provide a barrier to union membership.
#12 by Aidan on December 22, 2011 - 1:05 pm
Unions can disafilliate if they want to, and there’s a SNP trade union group. You presumably have evidence to back up your claim of such egregiously undemocratic behaviour?
#13 by Indy on December 21, 2011 - 1:05 pm
It is of course Labour’s right to decide what their voting system is but to most outside observers it would seem fairer that every body who participates in the election – whether as a Labour Party member, a trade union member or an elected member – should have one vote. Just one. And all those votes should carry an equal weight.
When we switched to OMOV in the SNP I was initially against it because I thought that the delegate system was better, I thought that you had a more informed electorate when it was done using the delegate system. I still think there is an element of truth in that (and OMOV does very much favour the incumbent or establishment candidate in a way that the delegate system didn’t) but I am happy with the way OMOV has worked out on the whole and wouldn’t go back to the old system.
But the key point of OMOV is one member one vote, not one member multiple votes.
#14 by Aidan on December 21, 2011 - 2:38 pm
OMOV is definitely the way to go.
#15 by @dhothersall on December 21, 2011 - 3:47 pm
I’m in favour of OMOV too, but I do think the point Aiden makes here is key – this isn’t, and shouldn’t be, about the result of the recent leadership election. That was conducted quite fairly according to the established rules and everyone knew what they were. So this needs to be divorced from who anyone was supporting in the leadership or any notion of who might have won under a different system.
We need to ditch the college. We need to give levy-paying union members and members of socialist societies an equal vote as equal members, and we also need to flatten the top end, and give MSPs, MPS and MEPs the same vote as everyone else too.
#16 by @dhothersall on December 21, 2011 - 3:47 pm
Gah – Aidan, not Aiden. I’m an ideot.
#17 by Aidan on December 21, 2011 - 3:49 pm
It’s ok Douglas, happens to us all.
#18 by @dhothersall on December 21, 2011 - 4:29 pm
Hrmph.
#19 by GMcM on December 22, 2011 - 11:46 am
I agree the voting system for electing our leaders needs to be updated.
One question though: what proportion of union fees that is put into the political funds that then goes to the Party and does this equate to the membership fees paid by ordinary members? If it is lower then why should they have the same power in deciding the leader of the Labour Party?
I’m not closing my mind to what you’re proposing but we have to make the system as fair as possible and I think any part of our support is to suffer it shouldn’t be the ordinary members.
If we keep the college system why are councillors not counted with MSPs, MPs and MEPs?
#20 by Aidan on December 22, 2011 - 1:09 pm
I’m really uncomfortable with the notion of money coming into how much your vote counts for…
#21 by GMcM on December 22, 2011 - 4:04 pm
It’s not just money though Aidan. Ordinary members pay higher membership fees, run the party at ground level and are the ones who go out and campaign year after year.
I’m proud that we are a Party that represents the Trade Union movement but I think people need to realise:
If we want to deliver policies that reflect the Trade Union movement and it’s principles we have to appeal to people outside that group.
If we’re not in power we can’t do very much. It’s not about getting into power for powers sake but more about getting into power to change people’s lives for the better.
The Unions have a massive part to play in the Party but there won’t be a Party if we keep looking inwards. How can we meet the aspirations of the electorate if we talk to ourselves and tell the electorate what we think is best for them?
#22 by Richard Lucas on December 21, 2011 - 4:55 pm
It’s hard to see how a commitment to change the system can be divorced from criticism of the existing process. Throwing in conditionals – debate shouldn’t be about the result of the recent election – really doesn’t cut it. Every election Labour conducts in this fashion gives more hostages to fortune – Ed Milliband’s legitimacy as leader is still a topic for discussion, and not just in cybernat circles.
The Labour movement will be judged on its past behaviour – it’s generally reckoned to be a good indicator of future actions. Taking seven months to implement a flawed process is a poor advertisement, and Labour’s progress will be impeded until it has a better story to refer back to. Sorry – but I really believe this, and I have tried to set my political blinkers aside in making this critique.
#23 by Aidan on December 22, 2011 - 1:08 pm
The review is both ongoing and wider ranging than just the electoral system for the leadership.
As for Ed and Johanns legitimacy being questioned, doing so is really to question the legitimacy of the union link at all. Or it’s pure mischief making
#24 by Richard Lucas on December 21, 2011 - 6:27 pm
http://labourlist.org/2011/12/2012-a-year-to-fix-the-party/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LabourListLatestPosts+%28LabourList%29
#25 by Observer on December 22, 2011 - 2:28 pm
I think OMOV is the best way forward for Labour (including of course all trade union members who pay into the affiliated fund) but I don’t think there is anything sinister in the current system which gives people multiple votes. There are multiples ways you can effectively be a member of the Labour Party & that is how the system has evolved.
I agree with what Aidan is saying – even if Labour had a OMOV system Lamont would still have won. She was the clear winner.
#26 by Dan on December 22, 2011 - 4:33 pm
The electoral college is clearly an anachronism trying to ‘equalise’ party sectors that have huge disparity. If it was replaced with OMOV would the trade unions hierarchy accept a more open access to its members for campaigning in exchange for this inflated position of power?
Given their past resistance to reform within the Labour party I think not. The TU leadership may not have a bloc vote but they do have a bloc influence over their members, votes coming packaged with a recommendation. They’d surely not want to risk that.
Incidentally, did all the unions recommend Lamont and Davidson or were they split amongst other candidates?
#27 by Douglas McLellan on December 27, 2011 - 3:14 am
What I find amusing is that anything beyond “One-member-of-the-Labour-Party-One-Vote” will be subject to accusations of unfairness, undemocratic and archaic. Yet there is always an attempt to maintain, to the detriment of simple democracy, the link with the unions. Many parties have wide ranging histories with key interest groups. Only the Labour Party maintains those historical links.
I wonder at the hypocrisy shown in the critisicm towards the Tories and their City funders and the SNP and their millionaire donations when the Labour itself takes vast sums of money from the unions. Where is the distinction?
#28 by Aidan on December 29, 2011 - 5:36 pm
Trade Unions are a somewhat different beast to City funders, and the way they participate in Labour party policy making is leagues ahead in terms of transparency by comparison.