Yesterday SNP Ministers published what must be the most bizarre proposals for rail services in Britain since the Tory privatisations went through.
If you just read the consultation’s blather-tastic introduction, it sounds great. We’re promised. “… an efficient railway, attuned to Scotland’s needs … coordinated, integrated … [with] passenger interests at its heart”, all harmonised with The Central Blather, i.e. “the Scottish Government’s Purpose of creating a more successful country, with opportunities for all of Scotland to flourish, through increasing sustainable economic growth.”
The reality is utterly different – a shopping list of essentially anti-passenger changes.
- Breaking up the franchise still further. The breakup of British Rail into franchises, ROSCOs and Railtrack (now Network Rail) didn’t work. Train companies competing with each other has complicated journey planning, made pricing opaque, and made it even harder to identify who’s responsible when something goes wrong.
“We are considering a range of options including separate franchises for sleeper services and other elements of the network such as inter-urban lines, for example the main Edinburgh – Glasgow line.” – 7, p4
Even though, later on Ministers say “In our view the need for greater integration of activities is self-evident..” – 2.17, p16 -  Forcing travellers to and from England from points north of Edinburgh to change at Edinburgh. Because everyone loves changing trains unnecessarily, right? These are Scotland’s passenger miles, so they should be travelled on a train covered in a Saltire: is that really the logic?
“We are therefore considering whether services north of Edinburgh should be provided by the Scottish franchisee, with Edinburgh becoming an interchange hub for cross-border services in the east of the country in much the same way that Glasgow acts as a cross- border hub for the west of the country.” – 16, p5
“On some routes, longer-distance services could be replaced by a number of shorter-distance services terminating at an interchange station.” 5.16, p34 - Cutting sleeper services. These compete directly with domestic flights, and reducing them could hardly be more cack-handed if you want to cut short-haul flying. The threat is that more trains will stop at Edinburgh, and that one of the services could be removed. A passing reference to increasing financial support seems totally stranded in a sea of cuts.
“We are considering … a number of options for the future provision of sleeper services, for instance: removing or increasing financial support; and reducing the provision, either through removing the Highland or Lowland service, or by running the Lowland services to and from Edinburgh only.” – 19, p6 - Allowing trains to arrive later so fewer of them are officially “late”. Surely it’s obvious that increasing journey times purely to allow the operator look more reliable is not what passengers want. Why not penalise operators for running late trains instead? This gives them no incentive to make the rail network more competitive. And (see below) as an additional downside to this, we’ll get fewer trains.
“…Â timetable adjustments could be made to increase the time journeys take which would allow more flexibility and thereby improve train performance levels, increasing the proportion of punctual trains. However increasing journey time may result in a reduction in the number of train services that can be provided.” – 4.8, p27 - More standing. First run too few trains on peak services and they’re too small. Solution? Allow them to run trains on those services so one in twenty-one people regularly have to stand, and make people stand for longer. No other option for intercity travel makes you stand.
“The carrying capacity could for example be set at 105% on certain types of service.“Â 5.6, p31
“We will therefore be considering whether we should increase the time that passengers may have to stand and welcome views.” 5.7, p31 - Charging more for this worse service. Hilariously, the SNP are describing this Ryanair version of Scotrail as an “enhanced service”, and are consulting on an end to the inflation +1% cap on fare rises.
“These fares currently increase each January by RPI+1%..” – 6.21, p40 “…Â we have estimated that rail demand and revenue would continue to grow for fares increases of up to RPI+3%.” – 6.24, p40
“We are therefore considering whether those passengers receiving an enhanced service as a consequence of investment in that service should make a contribution through increased fares, rather than having all costs falling to the taxpayer.” – 6.25, p41 - Specifically hitting commuters with even higher increases. You know, the people who can’t travel at other times. But who can often afford to drive if it becomes uneconomic to use the train.
“We are considering increasing the differential [between peak and off-peak fares] in order to free capacity in the peak period to accommodate future growth.” – 6.27, p41 - Banning booze on trains. I don’t mind if people drink on trains – I mind if they’re disorderly and disruptive. Can we tackle the bad behaviour, not the drinking, please? Most of the problems are from people who are hammered before they even get on the train. Banning people drinking responsibly does nothing to improve that, and makes long distance travel less attractive to those of us who quite like a beer en route.
“… consideration is being given to whether there should be a ban on the consumption of alcohol on all trains in Scotland…” – 10.18, p59
Labour Ministers would never have had the cojones to use their power over the Scotrail franchise to reclaim it for the travelling public, but pre-2007 SNP commitments had given rise to some optimism. Even as recently as 2008, despite having extended the franchise without consultation earlier that year, SNP conference and Ministers backed public ownership.
In short, on rail, SNP rhetoric and SNP actions in government have long been out of line. But what’s driving this (pun intended)? The only plausible explanation for even considering inflicting this disastrous set of proposals on the travelling public is that we have a government which is determined to devalue public transport and which remains obsessed with saving money on it to shovel into roadbuilding schemes.
If you love your railway, or if you think (shock! horror!) it could be improved rather than treated like this, you have until 20th February to reply to this consultation, which I will do more in hope than expectation.
#1 by Neil Barbour on November 16, 2011 - 12:01 pm
This is a consultative document so everyone has their chance to comment on it. Obviously it will be a curates egg but thats the idea of a consultation to make people think and come up with a consensus that it benefical to all
#2 by John Ruddy on November 16, 2011 - 9:10 pm
No, the idea of of a consultation is to give political cover for some idea a Government already has and wants to implement.
I wouldn’t mind if there were positive alternatives in the document. But there arnt. Every option is negative, and the grinning idiots writing the forward make it worse. Because they spend a page and a half telling me how wonderful these proposals are.
#3 by R.G. Bargie on November 16, 2011 - 12:04 pm
“The only plausible explanation for even considering inflicting this disastrous set of proposals on the travelling public is that we have a government which is determined to devalue public transport”
It’s not the ONLY plausible explanation. Another interpretation could be that these ideas – which are only stated as being considered as part of a consultation, not being introduced or even proposed – are being floated specifically in order to generate public support for the railways. It’s an optimistic interpretation, I grant you, but it would hardly be unprecedented for a government to suggest hideous proposals as part of an agenda to do the opposite, and therefore it’s at least “plausible”.
If it’s not that, I’m 100% in agreement with you. With the exception of removing first class from busy trains, these are dreadful ideas, even removed from your slightly paranoid anti-roads perspective.
#4 by James on November 16, 2011 - 12:14 pm
I should have mentioned the First Class thing. I think that’s fine too. But I struggle to imagine Ministers spending all this time deliberately annoying people to build support for public transport.
#5 by Rob Girvan on November 16, 2011 - 1:39 pm
From what I have seen for myself on the train between Glasgow and Edinburgh, the First Class area is given up if there is overcrowding already.
#6 by Una on November 16, 2011 - 12:31 pm
These proposals are awful, I agree. It needs brought back into public ownership.
#7 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 1:03 pm
Well it can’t be, in the short term at least. It is possible for the franchise to be awarded to a mutual or cooperative but the Scottish Government cannot bring it into the public sector. However they do say that they could award a short term franchise this time around in view of potential constitutional changes.
#8 by Doug Daniel on November 16, 2011 - 1:33 pm
I’m tempted to say that this would be the best plan, as it’s hard to see how much can realistically be done while our hands are tied. On the other hand, ScotRail needs to be taken out of WorstGroup’s hands as soon as possible.
A mutual/co-op would be the best plan, and could be a good demonstration for how things could be done better in other public services.
#9 by Allan on November 16, 2011 - 9:27 pm
I’m not sure that’s going tyo happen anytime soon. Especially considering that one of the great missed scandals of the first SNP government was the way Worstgroup were handed an extention to the franchise by Transport Scotland – helped by their finance director and former First Group employee.
#10 by John Ruddy on November 16, 2011 - 8:59 pm
That I find most bizarre of all! The reason for awarding a longer franchise is to get more private investment into the railway. With a longer franchise, the operator can spend money improving the railway for the passenger – look at Chiltern with their 20 year franchise.
So we are rejecting extra investment because of the independence referendum coming up? You couldnt make it up!
#11 by Indy on November 17, 2011 - 10:51 am
The reason for looking at a shorter franchise is so that the option of taking railways into some form of public ownership is left open in case the Scottish Government acquires the powers to do that. Fair enough, Labour doesn’t want that to happen but you should at least be able to see that it is a reasonable position to put forward in the circumstances.
#12 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 12:32 pm
On point 4 I think it would be a good thing because what happens very often now is that if a train is going to be late they just cancel it. I would rather travel on a late train than on no train. The obsession with saying trains must arrive or depart exactly on time is counter-producive if it ends up with trains being cancelled. I wrote to the Transport Minister at the time and to Transport Scotland to make that point and I am glad they are considering it. Haven’t read the rest of the doc so I can’t comment on it but I suspect there is a lot of selective quoting going on.
And there are some pretty basic issues that need to be addressed. To take the sleeper issue, fewer people are using the sleeper – and if you are travelling overnight the cost differential between an overnight bus to London and an overnight train is pretty steep, but do people really get the extra value from going by train? Considering it already costs the taxpayer 21 million a year and the rolling stock needs to be replaced I don’t see anything wrong with putting it on the table – and I could see an argument for running it as a separate franchise if they re-launched it as a kind of “heritage” type journey. Re-live the great days of the train type of thing. But if people aren’t even allowed to discuss options we won’t get very far.
Another thing that struck me was on a radio interview on this subject where they said the public subsidy to trains is something like ten times the subsidy to buses. Not sure if I got that right because that seems a vast difference. Most public transport journeys are made by bus after all. I wonder if there is some kind of inherent snobbishness at play which sees rail as somehow superior to bus. Obviously, for long journeys it is – well, it’s faster anyway – but most of our journeys are not long, they are just about getting around in our day to day lives.
#13 by Doug Daniel on November 16, 2011 - 1:11 pm
This was my thinking in terms of sleeper trains too. I’ve used the sleeper twice, and I wouldn’t use it again. “Intermittent napper” would be a more appropriate term for it. The next day, you’re totally wiped out. On both occasions, I would have been far better off just taking an extra day off work, paying for a cheap hotel room and travelling back the next day instead.
My only problem is that both times I was getting from London to Glasgow, so it’s easy for me to criticise. I have no idea how long it takes to get from London to Inverness or further.
But overall, I think rather than everyone launching into an attack on the proposals, let’s all take part in the consultation and make our voices clear. That’s what I’m doing anyway, making particularly clear that WorstGroup must not be given the franchise again, and that government must force the franchisee to provide good service, rather than leaving it up to them.
#14 by BaffieBox on November 16, 2011 - 2:38 pm
Completely disagree on your point about punctuation. In my experience, it’s reasonably rare now for cancellations, but it is very common – in fact, probably the norm during rush hour – that trains that run 3/4 minutes behind schedule are allowed to be designated “On Time”. Utterly ridiculous.
If we want a reliable and punctual rail service, the statistics have to be clean – not massaged within a tolerance – exact. If that means the current figures nudging downward, so be it. Nothing makes my blood boil looking at a performance spreadsheet that has figures almost hitting 100% when they were anything but. How on earth can you demand and monitor performance using such a system? Ive lost count of the days where the board indicates a train is “On Time” when it’s departure time passed 3 minutes ago! The trains I take on my daily commute are almost always a minute out – should leave at 07.58, shown on board as being expected at 07.59 and rarely arrives before 08:00. Almost every single day.
And it’s easy to avoid cancellations by penalising the operator heavily for failing to meet it’s obligations, such that a late running train is always preferable to a cancelled train.
#15 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 3:19 pm
They are allowed to be 5 minutes late – if they are over ten minutes late then they are penalised and that is why in my experience if a train is going to be more than 10 minutes late they very often cancel it.
#16 by Doug Daniel on November 16, 2011 - 3:47 pm
Got to agree with this – when I was taking the train from Glasgow to Aberdeen every Friday evening, the only way the train could be called “reliable” was in the fact you could rely on it being late.
Every.
Single.
Time.
But it was not recorded as “late”, because of the massaged statistics. Late is late. If the train can’t leave at 6:42pm, then it shouldn’t claim that it will. At least change the departure time so people have a clearer picture of when they’ll be actually leaving.
#17 by John Ruddy on November 16, 2011 - 9:00 pm
How much is your overnight bus to London? If you are flexible you can get £19 sleeper tickets to London. Except you have to be quick, because they sell out quickly. The sleeper (at least the Aberdeen one) is busy and well used.
#18 by Doug Daniel on November 17, 2011 - 1:02 pm
“If you are flexible you can get £19 sleeper tickets to London. Except you have to be quick, because they sell out quickly.”
And therein lies the main problem with all the cheap fares. Nae luck if you don’t find out until a week beforehand that you need to make that trip, because the tickets will all be sold out.
#19 by Jeff on November 17, 2011 - 1:13 pm
I’ve been trying to get those £19 tickets for a year now with no joy (and I regularly travel Edinburgh to London).
The price might look good on a poster, but they do not reflect reality.
#20 by Doug Daniel on November 17, 2011 - 3:48 pm
Like the Aberdeen – Glasgow £10 tickets (or £10.20 or whatever the advanced fare is now), I suspect it sells out almost as soon the allocation has been released. So unless you try to book 13 weeks in advance, it’s a case of “nae luck, min”.
#21 by Outraged commuter on November 16, 2011 - 12:34 pm
If this pigs’ breakfast is NOT what Ministers want to do, they need to explain why they are pictured grinning like idiots all over the foreword. If this incompetent, insane, sadistic maelstrom of crap is not what they want, they need to explain why, when it arrived on their desks, they did not phone the boss of Transport Scotland and invite him to find a career more suited to his talents, like hitting himself in the face with a hammer for money.
#22 by Jon on November 16, 2011 - 12:41 pm
The SNP fall over themselves to join the Dutch auction as to who can be the most right-wing when it comes to public transport.
very, very disappointing.
#23 by Daveinmaryburgh on November 16, 2011 - 12:50 pm
The link for the consultation below. I know it’s a bit cheeky however could comments from the debate that I imagine is going to start under this article be submitted.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/strategy-and-research/publications-and-consultations/j203179-00.htm
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#24 by Doug Daniel on November 16, 2011 - 1:19 pm
A great example of how easy it is to flip your lid over what initially sounds like an awful proposal is when they mention the idea of closing stations (Q24 on the electronic form). This sounds heinous – I was going to write “oh, hello Dr Beeching” as a comment – but when you read the applicable blurb in the consultation document, they highlight the example of Glasgow, where there are 11 stations less than a mile from a nearby station offering similar services. Having used the train to get around Glasgow, I do actually have sympathy with this argument – after all, no sooner has the train left Central Station when it’s having to stop again at Anderston. Is there really any need for stations that close? Then again, is it really worth saving £2,000,000 in the grand scheme of things in what would be an unpopular move?
#25 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 1:51 pm
I know, I am reading this as we speak. There are 37 stations in Scotland that have less than 20 passengers in a week. So what’s the point really? I mean OK there may be some where it is necessary but let’s look at it at least.
Also, everyone is doing their dinger about splitting the franchise but if you look at what they are saying they suggest that you could bundle up all the profitable routes into what they call “Economic rail” – that is, the provision of services where the commercial risk is borne by the operator, where industry would be willing to invest, and where the industry would be given freedom to change its operations in response to demand.
And then you could have what they call “Social rail” where the focus for the provision of the services falling within this category will be to achieve particular social objectives, for example, economic and social stability in a particular locality, or to assist with regeneration. These services would be distinctly managed for a fee in accordance with social objectives to address local circumstances. There would be greater opportunities for community involvement in the specification of services, and local communities would be able to support the challenge of reducing the gap between revenue income and subsidy. It is likely that most of the rural lines would fall into this category.
Really what is so awful about that? Why are people going mental? I would have thought it was a good thing to open it up to more community involvement.
Some of what they are talking about though just seems to me to make no sense. When they are talking about Glasgow-Edinburgh being at 130 per cent capacity while with Motherwell- Cumbernauld demand only exceeds 20% of available seating on one service. So on most services most seats are empty. Maybe I am missing something but why can’t they just put more carriages on Glasgow-Edinburgh and fewer on Motherwell-Cumbernauld????
#26 by James on November 16, 2011 - 2:18 pm
You don’t see the appalling consequences we got from splitting up into franchises in the first place? The bizarro-world one is the split into pseudo-franchises run by the same company. Do you think “the social rail” will get properly invested in? If so, you can’t have seen what happened when bus deregulation went through.
#27 by Doug Daniel on November 16, 2011 - 2:41 pm
I suppose the question there is, was it the splitting of franchises that was the problem during bus deregulation, or was it bus deregulation in itself?
#28 by James on November 16, 2011 - 2:48 pm
Deregulation let existing companies compete for the choice routes. It’s not a perfect read-across, just close enough.
#29 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 2:47 pm
That’s not the point. We are where we are. We can’t change things in the immediate future and, if we don’t get a yes vote for independence, we can’t change it at all.
And yes I think could make sense to treat routes like Glasgow-Edinburgh differently to other areas and if the service was run properly – which we all know it isn’t, at present – then that would increase the subsidy available for other places.
When we get to 2014, according to the document, the SG is going to be putting 738.1 million into rail – 290.7 of that will be into infrastructure, 447.4 will be into rail services via the franchise.
And that’s all there is in terms of government money. There’s no point trying to lever in additional investment into non-profit making routes, that’s never going to happen. But equally we can surely agree that there is a great deal of potential to run a better, faster and indeed more profitable Glasgow-Edinburgh service? As we have seen the current operators can’t even put on sufficient carriages for everyone to get a seat yet they still get paid for it.
#30 by James on November 16, 2011 - 2:51 pm
Very little of this is reserved. Ministers could award to a single not-for-profit franchise if they wished, on the basis of reduced fares and increased services.
Instead they want to try and go in precisely the wrong direction in almost every way.
#31 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 3:26 pm
Well that is flatly contradicted by the document which says that it is impossible for the franchise to be awarded to a state-owned company.
The current legal framework puts a number of constraints on how we might provide rail services in Scotland:
â– The European Union’s First Rail Package[13] requires a degree of separation between the organisation which operates the rail infrastructure and the organisation which operates the rail passenger services. It also requires that there is a level of separation between both these organisations and government.
â– Under UK legislation[14] the Scottish Ministers and any other UK public sector bodies are statutorily prevented from providing designated passenger rail services. However, there is no corresponding statutory ban on foreign public sector bodies being able to bid for and operate UK franchises.
â– In addition, under UK legislation, the rail passenger services funded by the Scottish Ministers can in practical terms only be provided through a franchise. The Scottish Parliament does not have the power to change this UK legislation.
So there is no possibility of the SG being able to return the rail network to public ownership in the immediate future. They could award a single not for profit franchise on the basis of reduced fares and increased services but that rather begs the question of where the money is gong to come from, unless you are going to allow private investment in the profitable routes which you are against.
#32 by James on November 16, 2011 - 3:34 pm
Not-for-profit and “state-owned” aren’t the same thing.
#33 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 3:50 pm
And the consultation states that they are looking at a mutual or cooperative option.
But that doesn’t really address the point does it? Because if you are against dividing the routes into commercial and social – and I can see why people might object to that – it removes the incentive for additional private investment doesn’t it? So you are back to debating how the pie is sliced and I suggest that if you want to see more services and lower fares that is going to mean looking at things like the sleeper services and saying is that a good use of public money.
#34 by James on November 16, 2011 - 3:51 pm
No, it doesn’t mean that. It should mean taking from other budgets – road notably. The rail pie needs to be bigger. And if it’s run more professionally then sustainable usage can be increased.
#35 by Ken on November 16, 2011 - 2:24 pm
“You could bundle up all the profitable routes into what they call “Economic rail”… where the industry would be given freedom to change its operations in response to demand”
“And then you could have what they call “Social rail†where the focus for the provision of the services falling within this category will be to achieve particular social objectives”
Doesn’t that sound like allowing business to cherry pick the best out of a mixed bag?
#36 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 2:54 pm
Yes. You would effectively be letting business run the profitable, high-demand routes while you focussed the subsidy onto the non-profitable routes which are socially necessary but will never carry sufficient passengers to make money. At the moment the subsidy goes to Scotrail for every service and they can’t even manage to get the Glasgow-Edinburgh one right even though there is huge demand. Why not let someone run that one with less subsidy and more of an incentive to get it right for passengers which would allow more investment in the less profitable routes and, if it is so important to people, the preservation of the London sleeper service.
#37 by Ken on November 16, 2011 - 2:58 pm
“Yes. You would effectively be letting business run the profitable, high-demand routes while you focussed the subsidy onto the non-profitable routes which are socially necessary but will never carry sufficient passengers to make money”
Sorry, but I completely disagree with creating, what is in effect then, a two tier rail system both in practice and on principle.
#38 by James on November 16, 2011 - 2:59 pm
Seconded.
#39 by Craig Gallagher on November 17, 2011 - 1:24 am
Don’t Virgin Trains already run the daytime services from Glasgow though? I’ve taken that train many times to London and it definitely falls into the category of a higher tier of rail system.
It hardly seems like we’ll be “creating” a two-tier system when most rail ownership is in private hands already. Indy’s suggestion of part-privatisation is more a means to control the already existing effects than to get at the cause, but I can at least see the value in that given how abominable the situation with the trains currently is.
#40 by Indy on November 17, 2011 - 10:56 am
But the whole thing is already privatised – that’s the problem, Creating a category of “social” rail would enable the non profitable routes to be treated as what they are and subsidised on that basis while the profitable parts were run on business lines.
#41 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 3:05 pm
Fair enough. It is just an idea that they floated. To me, the advantage of it would be that it would allow public investment to be skewed towards social priorities but that’s by the by.
#42 by Doug Daniel on November 16, 2011 - 2:29 pm
Indeed. The one time I went from Glasgow to Edinburgh on a peak journey train was horrendous because of the overcrowding. To even suggest allowing them to make this worse seems a bit bizarre. If we’re going to make trains as uncomfortable as buses, then let’s have a 50% reduction in prices, please. Otherwise, just put on an extra carriage – it can’t be THAT hard.
This would seem a better approach than trying to entice people on less convenient trains by pricing them off the peak trains as well. It can’t cost an awful lot more to shove an extra carriage on the end…
#43 by John Ruddy on November 16, 2011 - 9:04 pm
This document is a joke! The section on the least used stations especially so. Do you know WHY those stations are so little used? Its because they have 1 train a day, at the least useful time of day, with a return train typically 12 or more hours later. Who the hell is going to use THAT service? Give them a proper service and then more people will use them.
#44 by Indy on November 17, 2011 - 10:58 am
Well why don’t they mothball the stations in the short term until that happens? At this point in time they are spending hundreds of thousands of pounds keeping stations open that practically no-one uses. What is the point?
#45 by AliMiller on November 16, 2011 - 2:40 pm
Fantastic piece James, makes a lot of good points. The answer of course is not-for-profit running.
Totally agree regarding the lunatic idea about trying to price commuters off commuter routes. Why oh why can they simply not buy more carriages? More carriages = more room = less standing = better service = more customers = more money = more investment = better service. I cant believe that the Government seems to see increased demand as a problem not an oppertunity!
We can but hope Keith Brown doesnt seriously believe any of this nonsense.
#46 by BaffieBox on November 16, 2011 - 2:49 pm
If you think the Edi-Gla line is overcrowed, you should try another rush hour line. The Edi-Gla has enjoyed far higher investment than any other, with Fife and Stirling lines being an utter embarrassment on occasion. In fact, there are occasions where they should be made to cancel a service when capacity has no chance of meeting demand so that they are fined heavily and dont have to tarnish people’s dignity for trying to squeeze themselves in a door thats about the clamp shut.
#47 by Indy on November 16, 2011 - 2:56 pm
That’s another example of an area where there is clearly a high passenger demand that isn’t being properly met. While at the same time they appear to be running trains on the Motherwell-Cumbernauld line that are 80 per cent empty.
It does seem bizarre.
#48 by Alexander Belic on November 16, 2011 - 2:51 pm
Most of this is guff and I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I’d had to stand for 3 hours on my way to conference.
Point number 2 however, could have some merit, it’s my understanding that Waverley is either at or close to capacity, and having Southern trains terminate there rather than pass through would free up some space for other Northbound trains and could increase frequency in both directions.
Last winter during the hunners and hunners of snow debacle, The trains from Balloch and Helensburgh were forced to operate a sort of shuttle service between Dumbarton Central, with all passengers then changing to get on a train that would go the rest of the way into Queen Street, by all accounts this system actually meant that there was a more frequent service locally, with virtually no change to the service from points East of Dumbarton.
Obviously I haven’t looked into this in great detail but for other branch lines like Milngavie, or Alloa that could work out better for them as well.
#49 by John Ruddy on November 16, 2011 - 9:06 pm
Actually, terminating cross border trains at Edinburgh wouldn’t free up capacity – quite the reverse in fact!
A terminating train will occupy a platform for between 30 minutes and an hour while it is being prepared for its return journey. A through train usually takes less than 3 minutes.
Its one of the reasons why this nonsense was kicked out before.
#50 by Barbarian on November 16, 2011 - 6:10 pm
The options are a bloody joke.
1. Absolutely NOT. We need a single organisation running rolling stock, infrastructure and fares.
2. Bad idea. As someone who has to travel around the UK, the more short journeys, the more likely you will miss a connection. Bad idea for business travellers.
3. This will impact business travellers.
4. Wrong, since this will impact point 2. More trains arriving later, more connections missed.
5. Hahahahaha. Come and use the East Kilbride line on peak journeys. We are already standing because of problems getting carriages, and it happens too often.
Standing is also a serious safety concerns, especially when the train is jammed full.
6. Political suicide.
7. Political suicide, enhanced.
8. Why? There are already bans in place for certain trains, such as football and music events. The biggest problem comes from drunks who have come out of the pub and onto the train.
Every point is counter-productive, perhaps with the exception of banning alcohol. Increasing fares will be political suicide, no matter how they spin it.
The whole set of proposals are awful, and worthy of Labour’s success is screwing up the train services in England and forcing people onto the roads.
I do not know who came up with these bright ideas, but something stinks about the whole business. These proposals will force people off the trains and onto buses. You can figure out the rest from there.
#51 by R.G. Bargie on November 16, 2011 - 9:23 pm
“6. Political suicide.
7. Political suicide, enhanced.”
I wish that were the case, but it’s been happening UK-wide for years and commuters just grumble a bit then pay up. They’re pretty much a captive market, and even standing on a train for 20 minutes is still better than sitting in a traffic jam for an hour, burning eye-wateringly expensive petrol, then trying to find somewhere to park for less than £700.
The British have an ingrained genetic love for trains, and as a result we’re horribly taken advantage of. I mean, if we were a rational people there would be absolutely nobody on London-Glasgow trains at all, because you can fly for half the price and be there in a fifth of the time. And yet still the trains are full. (Except first class, obviously. We might be irrational but we’re not mental.)
#52 by Richard Lucas on November 16, 2011 - 6:23 pm
A bit of an SNP own goal so far. Surely a Gov’t committed to renewable energy sources would want a modern electric railway to link Scotland’s cities…
Furthermore, there appears to be very little sign of any public consultation in all of this. I would be appalled if the trains from Aberdeen/Dundee/Fife through to the South West of England were curtailed. There needs to be a major rethink here – if the Labour Pasrty had a clue, they would be having a field day with this half-baked set of plans.
#53 by R.G. Bargie on November 16, 2011 - 9:19 pm
“Furthermore, there appears to be very little sign of any public consultation in all of this”
Um, isn’t that the entire point of this document? Putting some ideas out and actively soliciting the public’s reaction?
“There needs to be a major rethink here – if the Labour Pasrty had a clue, they would be having a field day with this half-baked set of plans.”
They’ll try to anyway, but they have a massive credibility problem – they can bawl all they like that they’d renationalise the railways, but they were in power for 13 years and did hee-haw about it. People aren’t quite daft enough to forget that so soon.
#54 by Indy on November 17, 2011 - 11:32 am
Erm, the Edinburgh-Glasgow Improvements Programme will see the electrification of 350km of the existing rail network in the central belt, including the main Edinburgh Waverley-Glasgow Queen Street line. That’s already in hand.
And the document we are discussing IS a public consultation. It’s not a set of proposals. It’s a discussion document.
#55 by Kate P on November 16, 2011 - 9:21 pm
The sleeper is not a terrible service, it is an important service. It is used by many people in Aberdeen to get to and from London on a regular basis. It makes very good use of time, unlike getting to and from airports and hanging about getting through security. It is also very good value if you plan ahead, especially if it saves you a night of hotel accommodation in London. I personally have no difficulty with getting good enough sleep to do a day’s work on arrival, though it does take some getting used to.
#56 by Indy on November 17, 2011 - 11:35 am
I appreciate that but the issue is that it already costs the taxpayer 21 million a year to maintain it and the rolling stock is from the 1970s and needs to be replaced.
So it’s not just about the value to you, it’s about the value to everyone who pays into it. The people who have to stand on crowded commuter trains every day may well feel that 21 million could be better used buying extra carriages to put on their trains.
There is nothing wrong with discussing these things.
#57 by Barbarian on November 16, 2011 - 9:33 pm
Richard, the Labour Party do not need to do a thing. If the SNP implement any of the above proposals – with the exception of the alcohol ban – people are going to get very angry, and the media will be all over Keith Brown like a rash.
#58 by Richard Lucas on November 16, 2011 - 9:58 pm
Which is why I’m surprised that the document as published has so many bloody silly ideas in it – did no-one think to stop and ask a few ordinary punters what they thought of it before going to print?
#59 by Colin Dunn on November 16, 2011 - 10:20 pm
Jeez. What a disaster this will be if it goes ahead. A modern Scotland should be trying to get _more_ people and goods on trains, not less. It’s already less convenient and much more costly to travel by train than to fly, so if you’re trying to do the right thing travels’s about to get even harder, especially if the sleeper from inverness is stopped.
Really depressing.
#60 by Craig Gallagher on November 17, 2011 - 1:38 am
This is completely the wrong way for the SNP to go about overhauling the trains system. I understand that they can’t nationalise it, due to issues of reserved powers and the First contract running until 2014 (I remember being deeply uneasy that it was being renewed in the first place) but at the same time, considering even further privatisation of an already corrupt and sagging system is just disastrous.
By far the biggest problem with the current model of ownership is value for money. People who get the train are a captive market that are abused beyond all belief by the train operators, in terms of timekeeping, comfort of travel and especially pricing. How the rail operators have been able to get away with the astronomical price increases they’ve implemented in the last two to three years is beyond me, given that taking them to task is surely the most obvious electoral own goal for politicians beyond the outright abolition of the Tory party.
Furthermore, as Jeff has ably highlighted many times, the rules they put in place to restrict freedom of use on their services, and the airline-style price ratcheting they engage in closer to the day you have to travel are beyond reprehensible. Not one of these suggestions gets to the heart of the matter: that First Group, Scotrail, Network Rail and almost every other body involved in railway service provision (with the exception of Virgin, in my opinion, who do at least operate a consistent and comfortable line) are engaged in extortion rackets of the most incompetent kind. The Scottish Government should really know better, given the anaemic response of the UK government to the entirely justifiable outrage of Passenger Focus and other groups.
On a side note, how good does this make Ken MacIntosh’s advocacy of rail nationalisation look now? He may have found a vulnerable flank in the SNP juggernaut in just two months in the public eye, which is remarkable given the number of longer-serving political big shots who have been suffering from foot-in-mouth since May.
#61 by Doug Daniel on November 17, 2011 - 1:08 pm
“On a side note, how good does this make Ken MacIntosh’s advocacy of rail nationalisation look now?”
Shame it’s an undeliverable policy without independence, or at least having that particular power devolved to Holyrood. I hope if he wins, Ken will make it his mission to lobby the UK government to add that power to the Scotland Bill. Somehow I don’t think he will, though.
#62 by Dave H on November 17, 2011 - 7:13 am
Running a slightly slacker timetable can make the railway a) more reliable and b) more connected – South West Trains did this with the entire network in 2004. As a result trains often wait a little longer at a station for the timetable to catch up.
I use the overnight train regularly it provides a product that is not available elsewhere, but could be improved. It delivers you to a destination in the South before 09.00 (Bristol, Southampton etc) and it also takes you back from London after a full,day, including an evening event. It could use a) a complete overhaul of ticketing – the system denies me a Westerton-Crewe fare – “because there are no trains on that route” (come with me and use them!) and National Rail won’t sell tickets for Fort William – London with some call centre staff denying services to Fort William and Wick exist (because these do not appear on a screen in a remote location).
Through trains are important and a balance needs to be struck here
Edinburgh-Glasgow commuters can enjoy plenty of space and lower fares if they opt to use one of the 3 other routes – via Shotts – not recommended for depressing scenery and longer journey times via Airdrie nicer trains and hardly any one travelling the whole way so not filled between Airdrie and Bathgate – but trains are used more efficiently by not terminating at Airdrie & Bathgate (can get a bit crowded between Bathgate and Edinburgh) via Motherwell – some great bargains using the hourly Cross Country service – as low as £2 advance purchase singles, and only about 5 minutes slower than the Falkirk High route. However like lemmings we flock to the E-G with the 15 minute frequency and 40-45 minute journey time to Haymarket (a trick here to avoid potential delays in Princes Street Gardens and taxi queue at Waverley)
#63 by Doug Daniel on November 17, 2011 - 10:46 am
Much of your last paragraph highlights one of the things we need to get away from, namely the jiggery-pokery you have to go through in order to get a reasonable price.
Why can’t trains just be priced like buses? You know, travel X number of stops and it’ll be £Y, travel a few more stops and it’ll be a few more pounds – that sort of thing. For the first time in the history of the rail network since privatisation, that would truly be a “simplification” of the fare structure.
They need to be forced to state exactly how many of the cheap tickets they release too, and let you know how many are left. The current situation of having to book months in advance to be sure of getting the cheap tickets is ridiculous. Or they could just stop having cheap tickets altogether and make the normal tickets cheaper…
#64 by James on November 17, 2011 - 10:52 am
Yes! Two fixed prices per mile travelled, one peak one off-peak. And a single to cost half a return?
#65 by Doug Daniel on November 17, 2011 - 12:19 pm
Aye, I forgot about that one. Maybe not quite half – I’ve always seen the point of a return ticket being that the company offers you a slightly-better-than-combined-cost-of-individual-tickets price for a return in order to get you to use their service on the way back as well, and I would have no objection to paying a bit more than half the price of a return if I was only going one-way. But that’s a very minor issue.
Not entirely sure I like peak and off-peak though. If it’s used purely to put off irregular travellers from using the train when the commuters are trying to get to and from work – and thus commuters with season tickets don’t get penalised for having to go to work at the same time as everyone else – then it’s fine. But if it’s being used purely to try and manage capacity issues, I’d far rather they just put on extra carriages at peak times, and maybe have less regular trains at non-peak times.
I do sometimes wonder if there is really any need to have, for example, an Aberdeen to Glasgow train at 1:42pm, 2:42pm and 3:42pm. If trains are too empty during non-peak hours, maybe they should just be a weeeeeeeee bit less regular?
#66 by Eddie Truman on November 17, 2011 - 8:07 pm
Buses in Edinburgh aren’t priced like travel X number of stops and it’ll be £Y, travel a few more stops and it’ll be a few more pounds.
#67 by Indy on November 17, 2011 - 11:51 am
Another thing that really annoyed me is the way they talk about trying to use prices to address capacity issues. As if more people might choose to get the train at 4 o’clock instead of 5.30 if the price differential between an off peak and peak time ticket was greater.
Duh. I am sure the boss would understand if someone said hey I am just going to nip off early cos I can save twenty quid.
#68 by Louise on November 18, 2011 - 1:29 am
That these ideas are being floated at all is very worrying. Transport needs a mixed approach. In some areas better roads are desperately needed, but to allow the people who can to get off the roads or to cut down on air travel, there have to be improved rail services. These are not, to put it mildly, improvements that are being suggested
However I’ve just looked at the consultation form and it’s an exercise in management-speak. Surely ‘public consultations’ is a meaningless term when documents are couched in terms which make them this off-putting.
What on earth is the point of jargon-laden questions like this?
“What are the merits of offering the ScotRail franchise as a dual focus franchise and what services should be covered by the economic rail element, and what by the social rail element?”
This is the very first question. It could almost have been designed to turn respondents away in their droves.
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