I had hoped to go along to Tom Harris’s campaign launch this morning with my Better Nation hat on, but work got in the way. Never mind. David Torrance on Twitter tells us he said:
“Devo Max is a nationalist ploy, aimed at disconcerting and confusing the Labour Party… an obvious bear trap.”
I don’t know what Tom’s detailed thinking here is, but he’s right that there’s a risk here for Labour. There’s also an awful lot of muddled thinking about this putative third option, irrespective of how the questions are structured. Much as I miss writing with Malc, formerly of this parish, I think this post of his on Burdzeyeview is uncharacteristically off the mark.
The received wisdom, as discussed there, is that Salmond’s trying to look conciliatory, that it gives him a fallback option if the public aren’t ready for independence, and that it makes the Yoonyonisht Conshpirashy look like they’re against any change.
But who’s really in favour of it? Polling (as Malc rightly says) suggests it’s popular, but where there’s an ill-understood middle position the ‘don’t knows’ and ‘won’t votes’ will tend to congregate there. Given the uncertainty about the specifics of what Devo Max or Indy Lite might actually be even inside the bubble, rest assured the wider public haven’t a scooby about it.
But these standard assumptions may rest on a misunderstanding of what Salmond and his sofa cabinet want. Allow me to digress again into some theory.
A standard political theorist model of coalition-building is that three variables count: policy, office, or votes (that link is to the whole of Strøm and Müller’s book, I’m afraid). The Lib Dems, for instance, got more ministerial roles after May 2010 than they perhaps deserved, so scoring highly on the office front. They got much less on policy, with some wins on Europe and tax changes massively outweighed by student fees, NHS privatisation and the rest. The price they’re paying in vote terms is also very clear. Strøm and Müller would call them a predominantly “office-seeking party”, perhaps driven in part by the memory of their Gladstonian heyday.
New Labour, conversely, were more of a “vote-seeking party”, governed by focus group and the winds blowing from Fleet Street – now Scottish Labour mostly want to run Scotland because they don’t like the SNP doing so, and are perhaps better understood as primarily the “office-seeking” now. Greens have historically been a “policy-seeking party”, as exemplified in 2007-2011 by the efforts to secure policy changes rather than office from the minority situation (although having Patrick as convenor of the Committee that covered climate change was certainly useful office). The Scottish Tories are probably best understood in that way too.
And the SNP? For my money I believe their activist base to be sincerely committed to policy above all. They have a range of opinions on the rest of politics, from left to right to none, but achieving independence is the Holy Grail, the defining purpose, the eschatological moment itself. If you asked them to choose between independence with the dissolution of the SNP on one hand, and the status quo – the union with a rampant SNP – on the other they’d choose independence every time. And on Twitter and elsewhere, the mood amongst the nationalist massive was pro-Margo’s position, that Devo Max is simply a distraction.
But do the Ministerial team and SNP strategists agree? The top team do definitely love their jobs, their office, and their status. And they will have gamed the consequences of six possible outcomes – the two possibilities from a straight Yes/No to independence question, plus the three from a indy/devo max/status quo referendum, plus the one where no referendum is held.
Any clear vote for independence means they will have fulfilled their manifest destiny – and it’s hard to see how or why they’d make a pitch to continue to govern, or even whether people with bread-and-butter politics as diverse as Linda Fabiani and Fergus Ewing, for example, would want to remain part of the same party. Do they really want to become Scotland’s answer to the ANC? Similarly, a clear vote for the status quo pushes any progress towards independence off the table for a generation, despite the threats of a “neverendum” from the likes of John Mason, not to mention the speed at which morale amongst their activists would drain away.
The late-term referendum bid, derailed by legal challenges, might be a high-risk way to play the original 2007-11 game plan, mysteriously abandoned during that session, which was to blame the Conshpirashy for blocking democracy and preventing the people from having a say. However, the only one of the six options that allows them to say “we’ve made progress, give us another shot” in 2016 is a win for Devo Max. They can’t propose it themselves in case people come to the conclusion that it’s their first preference, so they would need someone else to do it for them. It would string the activists along and could, potentially, be the only option that could almost guarantee they retain Ministerial office.
Why else would they have spent so long pushing Indy Lite (as set out best here by David Torrance again) to no avail? And why do their press team put out so many press releases urging Labour and the other Yoonyonishts to put forward a Devo Max option and pointing out endlessly when the odd Labour voice backs it *? Prizes are available for anyone who can provide a clear distinction between the two proposals, incidentally.
If I’m right, Tom Harris is right too, on this if nothing else. Many in Labour now, finally, belatedly, realise that either a clear yes or no to independence would allow politics to move off the constitution and onto all the issues those outside the SNP got into politics to take an interest in – poverty, climate change, methods of taxation, cuts and alternatives to them and so on. And they have probably worked out that the only option they should fear is Devo Max, an option being pushed to the SNP’s benefit by that little list of semi-detached Labour figures. One day Labour’s strategists may even realise they should have offered an up/down vote in 2006.
* 17th Oct, “Henry McLeish is to be congratulated for urging Labour to back a “devo-max” option in the referendum”; 19th Oct, “The SNP today urged those Labour members who want to see the party back more powers for the Scottish Parliament to openly support Malcolm Chisholm MSP’s call for Labour to develop a position in favour of devolution max.”; 25th Oct, based on a single tweet from George Foulkes, “Labour and the Lib Dems need to understand that the only alternative to campaigning for “devo-max” is for them to stand with the Tories in opposing any more powers for Scotland”, 26th Oct, an almost identical release to the previous day’s one, just with a different headline.
#1 by Colin on November 3, 2011 - 3:03 pm
Sorry, I thought you were pro-indy?
Why do you claim achieving Independence and dealing with social ills/improving the country are mutually exclusive?
Wouldn’t an independent Scotland be better placed to deal with these problems and progress our nation?
Also – its misleading to suggest that only people outside the SNP want to deal with such issues. It’s just that we see indy as being the best way of achieving a fairer society in the long-run.
#2 by James on November 3, 2011 - 3:07 pm
I am in favour of independence. Not sure what you’ve seen above that makes you doubt that.
But debating time is limited. Yes or no to independence, we won’t have to debate it any more. And that’ll be great: I’d much prefer a yes to a no, but even a no means we can start talking about those other issues.
#3 by Colin on November 3, 2011 - 3:10 pm
I see where you are coming from but its unlikely that the debate is simply going to go away if the ref did result in a no vote. Particularly if its a close run thing.
#4 by Andrew on November 3, 2011 - 3:36 pm
It’s a bit naive to think that a no will make the debate go away. Depends on the scale of the defeat. A marginal no will still leave a significant chunk of the electorate and a major political party that will seek independence as it’s primary goal. You would also see the issue raised every time the UK Gvt steps on Holyrood’s toes. Would a no lead to the release of the fossil fuel levy for example? It would lock us in to the same debate, but this time there would be no sign of a resolution for many years (a generation as they say).
I don’t think a no would help us move on any more than devomax. In fact at least with devomax, we would have another bite at the cherry in a few years and it would hopefully set us up for independence.
I also disagree with your premise that leading lights in the SNP have anything to fear from independence. They would, in the eyes of many, be heroes. They would have positions of power and influence due to the role they’ve played. I also don’t see the SNP falling away for at least a term or two after independence. Maybe not ANC2, but you would look for stability in the early years. After which, some might leave, but there would be a rump social democratic party that would still retain influence.
Devomax is a trap for Labour whichever way they jump. For the SNP, it is a fall back that mitigates some of the risk of yes/no, but reduces/delays the chances of the big prize. That’s also why they’re not committing just yet. They’re just feeling their way. They know independence is still behind in the poll and that they have to play a long strategic game, right up to the poll.
My take on it anyway.
I also hope that we see a strong yes campaign separate to the SNP. Whatever their thinking, it should not be left solely in their hands.
#5 by Jeff on November 3, 2011 - 3:50 pm
Spot on as far as I’m concerned James.
While I agree with comments above that the issue of independence probably would linger around after a No result, it certainly shouldn’t, at least not for a decade or so. This should be win or bust for the SNP, that’s the natural order of referendums and adding Devo Max is a safety catch for Salmond but it’s a beat trap that should be avoided. Let’s not muddy the waters. Yes or No to independence and let’s let Devo Max evolve into being if that’s what we end up collectively wanting.
Also, I like how a marginal Yes result is a decisive step towards independence but a marginal No result means that the issue should stay alive. Cake and eat it much?
#6 by Craig Gallagher on November 4, 2011 - 12:18 am
In fairness, Jeff, most of the independence platform cultivated by the SNP is cake and eat it. That’s Salmond’s style, he’s a spread better and knows full well it’s far better to ensure a wider platform of favourable outcomes than unfavourable.
In this specific case, what you criticise there would have to be true for the SNP. Their argument may or may not carry sway – in the event of a Yes, I think it would; No, probably not – but what else can they do but fluidly interpret the results to suit themselves?
#7 by BaffieBox on November 3, 2011 - 3:56 pm
I think it’s a pretty big stretch to imagine that DevoMax is a device conceived with ministerial office in mind, and that the SNP top team would risk “independence” (whatever it means these days) for it. It’s just inconceivable. If these ministers really are as good as they think they are, quite a few of them will be destined for a ministerial office in an Independent Scotland, depending on how the parties settle in a fall out. I mean, it’s difficult to say whether Linda Fabiana or Fergus Ewing would be better or worse off – could be either, but I doubt it compares with the opportunity for a rejuvenated and liberated Scottish political scene.
DevoMax meets two keys requirements.
Firstly, despite having no real concrete definition, it lies somewhere between the status quo and independence, and by the textbook bell curve, it’s likely to align with popular opinion better than the two extremes. This is reality. While the SNP want independence, they know that a further major devolution of powers from Westminster will break the back of the Union, or at least enough for Scotland to take its first true steps of responsibility and independence. Ultimately, this is A Good Thing, and if the SNP cannot deliver independence, this is a decent second prize. Not only that, but the realism and pragmatism outlined in “Scotland’s Economic Future” from Reform Scotland will not be far from their mind. Independence is or may not be the independence it was 50, 30, maybe even 10 years ago. DevoMax, if someone could embrace and define it, could be the compromise and the settled will that both Scotland and the UK need.
Secondly, if DevoMax does nothing else, it at least causes the Unionists a problem. Talking it up as if it’s popular, which it probably is, justifies it and makes it legitimate. If the Unionists back it, it will likely be delivered, if they can define it. If they oppose it, they have to back the status quo or articulate something that makes the current shambles worthwhile. All in all, it makes the job for Unionists so much harder.
As the media love to remind us, Salmond is a gambling man, but he’ll play the odds. And thats exactly what he’s doing – he leaves all options open and spreads his bets far and wide. While a lot would argue otherwise, he’s at least giving the Scottish people as good as chance as possible of getting whatever it is they want.
#8 by Malc on November 3, 2011 - 6:17 pm
I also agree with BaffleBox
#9 by Indy on November 3, 2011 - 4:08 pm
A conspiracy too far.
Let’s just look at how we got to where we are. The National Conversation was launched in 2007 – it was during the period of 2007/08/09 that Devo Max became part of the debate. It wasn’t us who put it there but we responded to it and the Government then indicated, when the draft referendum was published, that a question on Devo Max could be included.
Fast forward to the current situation with a majority government. The SG has again made clear that if there is support for a Devo Max option it can be included. That is consistent with the position already taken. It’s not a new strategy or tactic – it’s the status quo. The problem with Tom Harris et al is that they did not pay attention to the debate that happened between 2007-May 2011. They are newcomers to the debate and are creating conspiracy theories on the back of something they have not actually researched.
Of course, politically, cynics could point out that it is easy enough for us to encourage Labour et al to back Devo Max because we know they won’t do it. And we want them to be the ones to close the door on a “third way†so that they are left in the position of being seen to be uninterested in further devolution but, rather, lining up with the Tory/Lib Dem coalition to support The Union.
And cynics might have a point – but it doesn’t mean we aren’t genuinely trying to persuade unionists that more autonomy is the way to go, ultimately leading to independence. Always remember that our aim is not to beat our opponents it is to convert them, something perhaps that we can forget ourselves in the heat of cyber debates lol but there you go. And if you look at people who have been released from the shackles of party loyalty, like Henry Mcleish for example, we are maybe doing a better job there than people realise. We have certainly succeeded in shifting the whole debate onto our ground.
If you apply your political theorist model to the SNP it is votes, votes, votes, votes, votes and then votes. I have had a few discussions with people on Labour Hame who clearly do not believe that we are serious about speaking to every single household in Scotland in the run-up to polling day – but we are. If there is a core belief in the SNP, other than independence, it is in the immense value of chapping doors. That – as much as having a good leadership team and good campaigns – is how we have increased our support. And that’s how we think we’ll win.
That’s why I would say that articles such as Mike Small’s are not really giving you any insight into the SNP. That is no disrespect to Mike. The independence movement is much wider than the SNP and there will of course be a range of views there. But what we in the party will consider is how it would go down on the doorsteps if we are the ones who say no, we are not prepared to allow people to vote on full fiscal autonomy within the Union. It’s independence or nothing. I wouldn’t be happy saying that, it’s much easier if they do.
Finally – and this is a bit more inchoate but everyone believes it – we are going for independence, not some second best option, because this is our time. Don’t doubt that. In politics – as you know – there are things you control and things you don’t. And you can get all the things you control right and be undone by the things you don’t control. But right now everything is coming together for us. The things we control AND the things we don’t control. We have no debt any more. We have a million pound nest-egg to start our campaign with. We have more members than we have ever had before – and more active members. We are a united party. Our opponents on the other hand are skint, they have shrinking memberships, they are divided and in disarray. The Tories are back in power down south and everything they do underlines why Scots reject them time and time again. And then there are wee added extras like reports predicting £375bn oil bonanzas over the next 40 years.
We will never be in such a good position again, not in our lifetimes anyway. It is as if everything has just slotted into place. That is, as I said, quite an inchoate thing because it is a feeling rather than a fact but it’s also very real. And, as you also know, things go in waves. We’re up now but we’ll go down again – it’s inevitable because it happens to everyone and it will happen to us too. So we have this space of time, this space in which everything is coming together, where we are riding the crest of the wave, and we are going to make the most of this space before we start coming down again.
#10 by Malc on November 3, 2011 - 6:07 pm
Once again… I agree with Indy. Mustn’t make a habit of this.
#11 by mindgame on November 3, 2011 - 4:10 pm
Its a trap either way. Labour supporting devomax splits the unionist front. If Labour reject devo max, then they are nothing more than Red Unionists who support the status quo of Tory rule from Westminster. it’s time for Labour to support full independence.
#12 by Garve on November 3, 2011 - 4:21 pm
It’s nonsense to imply that SNP ministers would prefer not to have independence in order to keep their jobs. If the SNP is dissolved one term after independence, the current ministers will have every chance to make up the Govt and the Opposition in the next parliament, especially given how shallow the current opposition talent pool is.
I’m surprised that there is so little obvious movement within the current opposition at the moment, in terms of the possibility of independence. There must be politicians within Labour, the Lib Dems and even the Tories thinking, “if I take this line I’ll have a chance of leading my party IF independence happens, and possibly being PM of Scotland”. What’s wrong with someone in a unionist party saying “Independence isn’t my preference, but if it is the will of the Scottish people I’ll do this, this and this”?
#13 by A Cairns on November 3, 2011 - 5:47 pm
It really depends on what Devomax actually is. If it’s closer to a form of Calman+ then I can just about see Labour and the LDs supporting it, otherwise not because it won’t be feasible and it will make Scottish MPs redundant (Probably at least 20-30 years until federalist ideas gain traction in England as well ).
The SNP has made it clear they are in complete control of the referendum process and don’t want any interference so I’ve never seen any onus on the ‘unionist’ parties to come up with anything anyway until the SNP names a date and also details the format for a referendum.
I would certainly prefer and up or down vote overall though and agree strongly with James’s last paragraph, it’s pretty much what Susan Deacon said the day after the election.
#14 by Una on November 3, 2011 - 5:50 pm
“Devo Max is a nationalist ploy, aimed at disconcerting and confusing the Labour Party… an obvious bear trap.â€
?whit? When will Labour learn it’s not all about them.
You ridicule SNP supporters for a supposed obsession with “yoonyonisht conshpiracies” while peddling darned silly “nationalisht ploys” yourself!
I am pretty sure nobody in the SNP team is concerning themselves about their post-indy jobs right now!
Perhaps, just perhaps, they are trying to offer a referendum which reflects what people want?
#15 by James on November 3, 2011 - 5:54 pm
I’m really not in the Labour team.
#16 by Ben Achie on November 3, 2011 - 6:07 pm
Seems to me the biggest issue of the moment in this matrix (?) is who leads the Tories (or the party formerly known as….., in the case of a Murdo win). Surely it can only be between Fraser and Davidson? And if he won, MF would surely end up promoting Devo Max?
#17 by R.G. Bargie on November 3, 2011 - 6:10 pm
Indy’s excellent post sums up how I think James has missed the point a little – this isn’t about politics in the conventional sense (which is how Labour are trying to play it, with their customary lack of grasp of reality) for the SNP, this is a quasi-religious thing. Independence isn’t an end in itself, it’s the fount from which everything else flows. They’re champing at the bit to implement policies without limitations – even if, as James does point out, they’re not necessarily all thinking of the same ones.
“why do their press team put out so many press releases urging Labour and the other Yoonyonishts to put forward a Devo Max option?”
I’m genuinely in awe of how Salmond has played this. The Unionist parties and the media seem to think they’ve somehow got him on the horns of a dilemma with regard to Devo Max, but I honestly think the SNP don’t care very much either way whether we have one question or two on the ballot paper.
They might have a slight preference one way or the other, but ultimately both are good – if Devo Max is on there it will definitely get a large majority, taking Scotland (at worst) a good 80% of the way towards independence and energising the party still further for the final step. If it isn’t it’ll be because the *Unionists*, not the SNP, rejected it.
Given that it’s currently by far the most popular option – regardless of whether people understand the fine details or not – being seen to block it would be a suicidal move for Labour in particular. THAT’S why Salmond is going so far out of his way to be seen to offer it.
Such a scenario will undoubtedly boost the independence vote, and it’s already pretty close, with several more years of Coalition butchery still to come. If the Unionists think that a one-question referendum guarantees them a win, which IS what they appear to believe, I have a feeling they might be making yet another disastrous miscalculation.
And the idea that the SNP would dissolve after independence just doesn’t make a lot of sense. Salmond might take a well-earned retirement (he’s getting on a bit, after all), but for everyone else there would suddenly be REAL government jobs with REAL power up for grabs. There might be internal wrangling, there might even be a breakaway or two, but having pulled off such a staggering achievement who’d want to choose that moment to walk away? Is Nicola Sturgeon, say, going to turn down being the first ever Prime Minister Of Scotland?
Devo Max is indeed an obvious bear trap. But as mindgame points out at #8, it’s one so ingenious that the SNP can hardly lose whichever way the Unionists turn. That doesn’t mean the vote is won, but Salmond is stacking the odds in his favour, and do we think the other side has anyone clever enough to outsmart him in the next three years?
#18 by Doug Daniel on November 4, 2011 - 12:43 am
Woah!!! Nicola Sturgeon the first ever Scottish Prime Minister?
I like Nicola, but if Eck really does deliver independence for Scotland, I think the LEAST he deserves is the title of first Prime Minister of Scotland!
(And then he should, of course, become the first President of the Republic of Scotland…)
#19 by DougtheDug on November 3, 2011 - 6:33 pm
I would certainly agree that, “Devo Max is a nationalist ploy, aimed at disconcerting and confusing the Labour Party…an obvious bear trap.”, but after that I don’t really find anything to agree with.
Devo-Max as a fallback option has a problem that won’t go away. If it wins who’s going to implement it because the SNP can’t. The SNP can’t propose it because they can’t implement it. It’s nothing to do with an activist backlash. It would be an empty and worthless promise on the ballot paper unless there was an agreement between the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib-Dems to propose and implement it.
Even the idea that the SNP upper echelons don’t really want independence because they’ll lose office reveals that the SNP is still the only party that understands ambition. If the SNP win the independence referendum the upper echelons get to be ministers in a new country but in devo-max, in whatever form it takes, they’ll still be regional politicians. The idea that the SNP will fall apart straight after independence is simple fantasy. It may morph into a new party based on policy rather than nationalism after independence but it will happen over decades not years.
The failure to hold a referendum in the 2007-2011 parliament was not a chance missed by the SNP but a glorious chance missed by the unionist parties. Up to that point they held both levers of control in a referendum, the power to hold or deny one and the power over the running of it. If the unionist parties had agreed to hold one then as a majority in the parliament then they could have controlled the number of questions, the text of the questions, the order of the questions and the timing of the referendum. Now a referendum will be held by the SNP and the rumblings from Westminster about Westminster holding the referendum are all about trying to regain control over the running of the referendum which is a power which has been lost to the SNP. In 2007-2011 the lack of a referendum doesn’t point to an SNP fail, it points to the SNP dodging the bullet and avoiding a unionist run referendum.
David Torrance is pretty much a tin-foil hat wearer when it comes to Indy-Lite and the SNP. Despite no SNP party official backing, calling for or even supporting Indy-Lite David is convinced that it is the SNP’s true objective so I don’t regard a link to his blog as an indication of anything.
Devo-Max is a grenade which has been thrown into the unionist camp. If the Labour party reject it as an option then they will be fighting shoulder to shoulder on the unionist platform alongside their Conservative brethren but if it fails to show up then they’ve denied the electorate their apparently preferred choice.
The opinion of the Labour party in Scotland counts for very little because for the Labour party to call for Devo-Max requires that the English part of it, the bulk of the party, thinks it is good for both Britain and England and I’ve seen no indication there that they want it.
#20 by Allan on November 3, 2011 - 7:47 pm
Two points
1)“Devo Max is a nationalist ploy, aimed at disconcerting and confusing the Labour Party… an obvious bear trap.†– I’m not really sure why increasing the powers of the Scottish Parliament (much more than say Calman or presumiably full Fiscal Autonomy would) can possibly be described as a bear trap. I suspect that this says more about the mindset of “Scottish” Labour than anything else. As I pointed out across at “Dispatches From Paisley”, “Scottish” Labour are not in a good place, and do not realise it. It’s not as if there are a shortage of Left of centre commentators baffled at Labour’s stance on this one.
2)”Many in Labour now, finally, belatedly, realise that either a clear yes or no to independence would allow politics to move off the constitution” – As i’ve said quite a few times, it has been Labour and the media that have been obsessing about the constitution. It has been Labour pushing for answers, while Harris on his… er… platform has been obsessing about the question, the format, and the timing of the referendum thinking that there may be some sort of fix on the cards. To go back to my own post on the state of Labour, if only they would wake up and smell the coffee. They would realise that their behaviour has been akin to the arch devolution deniers of the 1990’s – Forsyth’s Scottish Tories.
#21 by Observer on November 3, 2011 - 7:57 pm
When Malcolm Chisolm advocated further devolution, he identified a specific example of why we needed it. The forthcoming Tory welfare reforms. I agree wholeheartedly with his approach. What do we need to control, & why do we need to control it. I think if you approach the benefits of devo max that way, it makes a lot more sense. I am in favour of independence, but I am also in favour of devolving more necessary powers to the Parliament as a fall back position. That fall back position would be definition have to be spelled out by another party. If Labour don’t do that, & there is a no vote in the referendum, then we will be back to where we started, because Calman doesn’t go far enough. The electorate will still be unsatisfied with the constitutional settlement.
#22 by Barbarian on November 3, 2011 - 8:05 pm
I think Salmond will have to consider a “Devo Max” option, but that will depend on opinion polls at the time that the referendum questions must be finalised.
If the polls remain where they are, they will have to go for it. A “No” result could see the SNP split, and there is no guarantee that Sturgeon – the best candidate to follow Salmond – would win. Politics are politics after all.
Devo Max gives the SNP a safety net. I don’t believe that the level of support for independence is going to suddenly ramp up. It’s gone up a bit, but it is still relatively static. The SNP need to get the May election result out of their head.
The Doorstep Challenge will have to be carefully considered, with canvassers properly trained and prepared in how to respond to difficult questions.
Devo Max gives a comfort zone to the voters in the middle. And if Devo Max was a result, it makes it easier to justify another referendum – this time a simple yes/no – within a few years.
#23 by Angus McLellan on November 4, 2011 - 4:26 pm
On Devomax, Alan Trench’s memorandum of evidence to the Scotland Bill committee is now available here. Not too long and well worth a read.
It seems like it could be rather hard to put the “max” into Devomax. Devo-slightly-more might not have the same ring to it.
#24 by Chris on November 3, 2011 - 9:48 pm
Becoming the next Fianna Fail would be the real danger. A dose of flag-waving to cover an ideological void that attracts every chancer, crook and megalomaniac in the country.
#25 by douglas clark on November 4, 2011 - 3:01 am
Perhaps contrary to the gestalt, I think the backroom boys at the SNP want the devo max idea tossed into the long grass. I thinkthe idea is to challenge that idea, what is Westminster willing to surrender? It would be too little, and too late.
This, it seems to me, is a lifetime moment. Either we embrace our own future, or we don’t. Anything else has to be scared off the ballot paper. Which is what I think the SNP are doing….
#26 by Chris on November 4, 2011 - 3:05 pm
The real ‘problem’ for the SNP is that they got lucky and have the power to implement a referendum without having done the hard work of convincing the electorate about the case for it. For which they can thank Margaret Thatcher, Nick Clegg and Iain Gray for making each of their opponents unelectable.
Perhaps the best option is a monumental climbdown that recognises that they still need to do this work and give themselves time to answer all the questions rather than pushing through a referendum that they will lose and set back their goal for 25 years.
#27 by Angus McLellan on November 4, 2011 - 4:52 pm
I think now is as good a time as any.
After all, it sometimes seems as if there are important people in London (and Brussels and Washington DC) doing their level best to compensate for any possible absence of detailed planning on the SNP’s part. There’s an unloved government in power at Westminster implementing unpopular policies. There’s no more money in the Treasury. With one unpopular war (“illegal” some say, but not me) not yet forgotten and another war still in progress there are now rumours of yet another to come, The opposition at Westminster are barely credible. All three “national” leaders at UK level seem to be in a competition to see who can be the least popular in Scotland. And finally, the Unionist parties seem likely to choose the Scotland Bill’s “Calman-minus” position as the status quo on which to oppose independence.
#28 by Barbarian on November 4, 2011 - 7:40 pm
I don’t think a Referendum right now would win.
Where are the protestors on the streets? No matter what you say about Westminster, there is a lot of convincing to be done.
The Referendum is not a leadership competition like the Holyrood elections were – convince me that another SNP politician would have produced that result, not even Sturgeon and I respect her more than any other.
Independence is a huge political and pyschological step for people to take. The SNP want it, but do the majority of voters?
I want independence, but trying to convince others is harder than some might make it out to be.
#29 by Indy on November 5, 2011 - 7:40 am
We are not having it right now, we are having it in 3/4 years time.
Where we are right now is that most people haven’t really thought it through.
This is where the voter contact is essential. We are not going to win the referendum through the media or through parliamentary activities. It’s face to face contact that will decide it. Find out what people think – if they are against independence why are they against it? If they are undecided why are they undecided? And indeed if they are for it why are they for it? That way we build up a picture of what people really think and what they really want which puts us in a better position to make the arguments for independence in a way that will make sense to individuals, not just a general mass.
#30 by Angus McLellan on November 5, 2011 - 1:14 pm
Now, as in sometime in this term, as opposed to 25 years in the future.
#31 by Erchie on November 7, 2011 - 6:39 am
I think this new, silly notion that “The SNP haven’t done their work” ignores the campaigning, the standing for Parliament, the arguing the case that they have done on this notion for decades
That the public might not be aware of some of this is down to a media that tends to favour the status quo over actually providing balance, the BBC have been shocking in recent years on this topic
This is why the Unionist side want a Referendum fast, so that the arguments in favour don’t get a chance to be heard. One way to make ABSOLUTELY certain of that is a “Well, you people aren’t ready for it, let’s wait 25 years”
That is disingenuous at best, and “lumpenproletariat” thinking at its worst