The key to winning any battle is often in the timing.
William Wallace won the battle of Stirling Bridge by moving early on the English forces and making sure his army held the advantageous North Bank of the River Forth. Then they waited.
Knowing that the number of front line Scottish forces equalled the number of front line English forces across the fixed width of a bridge, Wallace waited for as many of the English forces to cross the bridge as he knew his smaller forces could overwhelm and then pounced with devastating effect.
That was then and this is now but let’s not pretend that the two sides of the independence debate are not similarly preparing for battle. Salmond’s forces are to the North and Cameron’s considerably larger forces are to the South, albeit with less deadly consequences than 1297 about to ensue.
With timing being such a key question in any such contest, it is not clear to me why the Prime Minister, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband are not collectively taking advantage of the SNP’s apparent indecision over detailed questions of its independence proposals and trampling through their opponents upon the steed of a 2012 referendum, long before we reach the SNP’s preferred timing and terrain of 2015.
We only need to look to May 2011 for an example of why moving early may well be to the unionist camp’s benefit.
The AV referendum was held within a year of the General Election result, a surprise result that created a Tory-Lib Dem coalition and a previously undiscussed policy of a referendum on the Alternative Vote. The lack of understanding around what this voting system involved led to all manner of misinformation being peddled by the No camp.
So why would this tactic be any different in an independence referendum? What would independence mean for Scotland’s currency? For Scotland’s Defence? For our welfare state? For our banks? Insert your own answers here, and that’s exactly what may happen. It would be the No camp and a sympathetic media, just as it was for AV, that would make the running on those unanswered questions if the pro-independence parties are not allowed time to get their act together and prepare a better narrative.
It’s sneaky, it’s tawdry, it’s downright duplicitous. But, it’s politics and a win is a win. You bank it and move on. Just look at the sobbing mess that is was the Liberal Democrat policy of voting reform. That could be the independence movement this time next year.
There are more worthy arguments in favour of holding a referendum early over and above pressing home the weight of numbers, resources and column inches:
– Constitutional matters are deferred. The SNP won an election with a manifesto that promised a referendum. Consequently, it’s reasonable to argue that it is now incumbent on the Westminster Government to deliver that referendum, in consultation with the Scottish Government. There is no question that anyone other than the Scottish public should have a vote in this election and Michael Moore’s ill-advised earlier intervention has also ended the speculation that two referendums may be required. The path is clear – all that is left is for Westminster to roll out the carpet and let Scotland walk down it in the manner that she chooses. What are we waiting for?
– If you’re not playing offence then you are playing defence and doing nothing for four years while the SNP makes all the running on wording, timing and softening up the electorate barely even counts as defence. A Government that is doing nothing on any specific issue quickly falls into the trap of inertia and, as much as the Conservatives only returned one MP north of the border, it is still the leading partner in the UK Government and is duty bound to act in what it considers to be the entirety of the UK’s best interests. That extends to holding a referendum when the alternative is putting Scotland on ice for a whole parliamentary term.
– The SNP has had enough time to explain what their version of independence means and, if a snap date was called even today, it (and the Greens and the Socialists) would still have time to explain their respective visions between then and voting day. It would be a hollow objection if anyone in the SNP claimed they were being bounced into having to campaign for an aspiration that they as a party have striven for for 77 long, largely fruitless years.
– There is little doubt that the delay in holding a referendum is damaging Scotland and a responsible UK Government should see this and act accordingly, irrespective of their view that the devolved Government is truculent and troublesome. One example is as follows – there is a strong argument for having the UK’s Green Investment Bank in Edinburgh. It would be close to much of the renewable projects and expertise that exists in the country and the Finance Sector in Scotland’s Capital has suffered disproportionate loss of jobs and prestige through the economic crisis so suitably qualified, motivated staff are in place to hit the ground running. However, why would the UK Government risk starting the bank in Scotland when there is a risk that in several years’ time Scotland will be leaving the UK? This issue of Scotland being short-changed of investment up to the referendum date can be grossed out across all market areas to a greater or lesser extent.
– Independence is dominating and, as a result, dogging Scottish politics. Just think of all the parliamentary time, the media space and the resources that would be freed up if the decision was taken once and for all? Similar sized nations have a significant advantage over us when they can discuss actual policies surrounding real governmental areas like education, health and justice while the same hollow independence arguments get hurled between Nats and Unionists over freedom/separation in the debating chamber, and in the media. Look up Scottish Politics news from ten years ago and it will look depressingly similar to the debate that is going on today. Political progress is being trammelled for no good reason other than partisan positioning. Let’s finally get past it and crack on with what matters.
– The timing is ideal. The Scotland Bill is making its way through Westminster and in order to ensure that this package of proposed solutions is lasting, an amendment should be tacked on to pave the way for a referendum that, from a Tory/Lib Dem perspective, strips away the option of independence once and for all and ensures appropriate focus is given to the UK Government’s Bill.
The main reason, of course, for the coalition agreement agreeing to a referendum sooner rather than later is a political one. They have a better chance of winning it if it is held sooner, not to mention a better chance of winning more MEPs and MPs at the expense of a neutered SNP in elections in 2014 and 2015 respectively.
To understand this fully requires a clear understanding of the SNP strategy which seems to be:
(1) run a competent, popular devolved Government that mitigates and insulates the worst of the Tory policies up to the General Election of 2015,
(2) hope, perversely, that the Tories win an outright majority in 2015 despite not returning a single MP north of the border and
(3) run a referendum campaign in late 2015 with the public’s two options being:
(a) suffering from a UK Conservative Government every other parliamentary term or
(b) enjoying a new Scotland under guaranteed left-leaning parties forming Governments
It is a smart, savvy, perfectly winnable strategy but it requires the door being held open to it for four long years and those who prefer the UK to remain in place are foolish to stand idly by.
I am excited for the independence campaign, agnostic about the result and impatient for it to begin.
Scotland has local elections on May 3rd 2012. That seems as good a date as any to nip this independence question in the bud once and for all.
And how ironic if, in winning the waiting game, it was David Cameron who sent the SNP homewards, to think again.
#1 by JPJ2 on October 5, 2011 - 7:46 am
The opportunity for a pre-emptive strike on the timng of a referendum disappeared with the result of the May election.
It is profoundly unconvincing for unionists to move from outright opposition to ever holding a referendum to demanding that one should be held immediately.
Remember that the unionist stance pre-election was that HOLDING a referendum amidst the current economic difficulties would be a dangerous distraction from solving these problems, and therefore bad for Scotland.
Now, hypocritically, they claim the reverse to be true-Scots are not so daft, and sufficient would support SNP calls to boycott a Tory instituted referendum and wait for the REAL one which has been mandated by the electorate.
#2 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 8:17 am
I’m not convinced that a boycott would work. This isn’t Brian Soutar bankrolling a vote on Section 2A/28. This is the UK Government working within its remit asking the people of Scotland what it wants for its future. How could Salmond convincingly argue that he was going to ignore this one but ask the same question in the same way in only a few years’ time?
I don’t see the unionist arguments about the economic crisis the same way that you do. Yes, the (largely Labour) argument that you don’t hold a referendum during a recession always sounded hollow and desperate but we are through the recession, well through it, and stagflation could be here until 2015 and beyond.
Basically, if unionists using the economy as an excuse not to have a referendum was silly then, it is just as silly for Nats to use the same excuse not to have a referendum in 2012.
And finally, yes of course the Tories and Lib Dems stood on a platform of no referendum but May 2011 has changed what will come to pass so a UK Government is well within its right to change its position.
#3 by Steve on October 5, 2011 - 9:31 am
Jeff, we could easily be in the middle of dip two of a double dip recession by May next year.
If I were the Tories, I wouldn’t fancy selling the benefits of the UK against the backdrop of a UK economic plan that had demonstrably failed.
#4 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 12:44 pm
Even if we are in the middle of a double dip recession, is it really so distracting to ask the people if they are a Yes or a No to independence?
That said, I wouldn’t fancy being the SNP trying to convince Scots to gamble on the financial risk of independence when they’re struggling to make ends meet.
#5 by Random Lurking Scotsman on October 5, 2011 - 2:47 pm
After the recent Conservative conference, I think I and many others may well be justified in thinking that the Tories may well be looking back to 1843 as a source of answers for the problem of poverty.
If we’re still hearing such garbage belched out from those holding the reins of the Westminster Government, and the SNP can outline a scenario in which Scotland would take a more forward-looking route along the lines of the Nordic nations rather than one cherry picked from the very worst approaches of the Victorian era and the modern United States, I can see that would probably tip the independence referendum to the Yes side very decisively.
#6 by Phil Hunt on October 6, 2011 - 1:05 am
How could Salmond convincingly argue that he was going to ignore this one but ask the same question in the same way in only a few years’ time?
Because that’s what he said he’d do. Politicians are rightly criticised for breaking their promises, it’d be wrong to castigate him for keeping his.
#7 by ReasonableNat on October 5, 2011 - 8:16 am
Seriously? You think that would work? I think most Scots would see that as interference in our internal affairs by a Tory PM, I think most of us would be outraged whether that is technically justified or not.
” – There is little doubt that the delay in holding a referendum is damaging Scotland” it used to worry me that this might actually prove to be true, the logic is compelling. I see no evidence of this though, none at all. You’d imagine that four clear months after the election when no-one is in any doubt that a referendum will happen, if there was going to be an economic impact due to this uncertainty, it would he visible by now. If anything it looks to be (admittedly perhaps insignificantly) a little the other way, and at worst we seem to he performing as we usually do with respect to rUK. In fact, if anything, SG seems so far to be showing up UKG in a range of areas.
Ultimately, whenever he does it, Cameron is going to have to make the case that Scotland is better off under Tory rule. Whenever he gets round to doing that it should be pretty hilarious to watch.
#8 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 12:47 pm
Well, the reason that Scotland is doing a little bit better than the rest of the UK is because the SNP managed to successfully advance capital spend, a solution that won’t last forever. And even if Scotland is doing better than the rest of the UK, we could be doing even better as you seem to admit yourself if this question was lanced once and for all. You say that you see no evidence of this but surely you accept that my chosen example of the Green Investment Bank is a classic bit of evidence of what must be happening across the spectrum of the Scottish economy, for both private and public sectors?
#9 by ReasonableNat on October 6, 2011 - 11:47 am
Well, I don’t like being picky, but there’s no decision on the bank yet, and even if there had been, this would still be very much just one anecdote. This would also be a decision by the UK government, not a private enterprise, so political agendas might be expected to play a part.
There’s a huge weight of evidence gathered on the economy (the private sector), out of which I’ve not seen a single suggestion that this uncertainty is having an effect. I know of one private company, headquartered in England that is closing offices in England and keeping Scottish offices open.
As I admitted, the logic of the argument suggests that this could be a problem, and it is something I have previously been quite concerned about. At this time though, no, I see no evidence of either an exodus of companies or a general downturn in performance relative to rUK. From the evidence, it looks to me like the private sector is: a. not concerned about the potential change, b. confident that there will be no change, c. overall in balance between companies that see it as potentially positive and those that see it as potentially negative.
#10 by Aidan on October 6, 2011 - 12:22 pm
Investment decisions are taken on a much longer basis than the few months since the election, and there’s very little data about 2011 Q2 and basically none about Q3 yet.
It’s simply too early to tell.
#11 by ReasonableNat on October 6, 2011 - 1:44 pm
Sure, fair point, so far so good though.
#12 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 8:45 am
The only way to get independence supporters to pipe down is to hold the referendum on fair grounds. If the people are given the right information to choose properly and still vote to stay in the union, then an entire generation will just have to accept that this is the settled will of the Scottish people. If, however, there is even the slightest hint that people were tricked or the referendum was nobbled, then far from putting independence off for a generation – it’s going to make people like me shout even louder.
So, to avoid any question of that, the Tory government needs to butt out and let the Scottish Government put the question to the people.
#13 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 12:40 pm
“The only way to get independence supporters to pipe down is to hold the referendum on fair grounds.”
I know the SNP like playing dodgems around this issue but having the referendum in a fun park is a bit much. (Boom boom!)
I understand the point you are making Doug but the inconvenient truth is that the Conservatives are the majority partners in a Government that looks after the entirety of the UK. It would be negligent of them to ‘butt out’ of Scotland on an area where policy areas are still reserved. Furthermore, my suggestion hinges on Labour/Lib Dem/Tory MPs finding agreement on the issue. That’s a vast majority of Scottish MPs and there can be little argument of ‘them’ getting involved in ‘our’ business. Scottish independence referendums are very much Scottish MPs’ business.
Incidentally, I don’t see how any Government, the UK or Scotland, could nobble a referendum. The crux of the question will be crystal clear regardless of what it ends up being and it’s standard for the status quo to take the ‘No’ part of the answer so the Tories can’t pull a fast one there. Apart from that it’s just setting a date and making sure there’s enough ballot boxes out there to capture the votes. What are you so afraid that the Tories might do? Why are you so hesitant for Scots to have their say sooner rather than later?
I accept that more time to digest what Scotland’s currency might be, what the share of debt might be, what the oil revenues would be would be nice but I am sure we’ll be no further forward on those questions come 2015. It’s a leap of faith this referendum lark. We can sit on our hands for 4 years or we can grasp the thistle and go for it. I prefer the latter.
#14 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 1:02 pm
I approve of the pun far more than I should.
For me, Westminster stopped being the realm of the referendum as soon as we voted for devolution. True, Holyrood has not been devolved the ability to declare UDI, but as others point out, all referendums are merely “advisory” anyway, and as a distinctly Scottish issue, I feel it’s quite right that Holyrood does the legwork rather than Westminster. So the way I see it, MPs going over the heads of MSPs is very much a case of interference. That’s perhaps more personal preference more than anything, though.
As for nobbling the referendum, are you forgetting what happened in the 1978 one? There are a variety of ways it can be nobbled – heavily-biased question, unrealistic voting expectations (there must be no threshold for voter turnout – if people don’t want to vote, then they’re not implicitly saying no, they’re saying they don’t care enough either way), and just making sure it is held before the electorate have a chance to fully understand what they’re voting for, which you’ve already pointed out was a factor in the AV referendum result.
The reason I’m hesitant about rushing it is because I’m 29 now, and I know that if the referendum fails, I could be almost a pensioner before I get another chance to vote for independence. I would rather wait four years and make sure the debate has been properly conducted, rather than wait another 30 or so. It’s a complex issue, and there’s much to be fleshed out first (much of which has been touched upon on here at various points since May, but there is probably a plethora of things we’ve yet to touch on). Rushing it can only be a negative move.
#15 by Scotsfox on October 5, 2011 - 7:19 pm
Are referendums in Scotland advisory? Are the people not sovereign in Scotland – not parliament? Just asking…
#16 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 7:51 pm
Well, since the Scottish Parliament is (currently) an adjunct of Westminster, and Westminster is sovereign, then referendums in any part of the UK are advisory. And yes, that’s irrespective of claims of sovereignty of the people.
#17 by Scotsfox on October 5, 2011 - 8:57 pm
Debatable. The Scottish Parliament was reconvened and if the Scottish people voted en masse for Independence then their sovereign right to do so is inviolate. The Treaty of 1707 did not overrule our Claim of Right, in fact it confirmed it.
#18 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 9:10 pm
Debate it all you like. If Scotland voted Yes to independence I suspect that it would – rightfully – result in independence. But the referendum itself would still only be an advisory or consultative one. Legally, that is the position – just as Westminster could abolish the Scottish Parliament if it chose to. Politically, that’d be suicide, but Westminster is sovereign and thus retains that right. The Scotland Act also stipulates that Westminster still “retains the right to legislate for Scotland in any area it chooses”.
Also, if you want to get pedantic, the Scottish Parliament established in 1999 is hardly a consistent brother or sister to that of 1707 – whatever Winnie Ewing’s declarations on the day. Sure, the name is the same, but that’s about it. The franchise is a completely different entity.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the claim that sovereignty lies with the people. I’m just not sure that it gets us anywhere with regards a referendum being anything more than advisory – especially since the Scottish Parliament remains under the sovereignty of Westminster.
#19 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 8:03 pm
I think you mean 1979.
#20 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 8:48 am
You are missing a few fairly obvious points which mean that the unionist parties do not want an early referendum.
1. Both Labour and the Tories are currently leaderless and rudderless. Such is the lack of leadership that it has even been suggested that Billy Connolly should be the face of the No campaign (without asking him first, naturally).They have not yet decided their position on Scotland’s constitutional future – they may be against independence but they don’t know what they are for in terms of devolution plus/max/whatever you want to call it. They are also divided e.g. Jim Murphy’s recent comment that he would refuse to share a platform with David Cameron in a pro-Union campaign. In other words they are in no position to run any kind of coordinated campaign.
2. They lack intelligence. The SNP has been including a question on independence in their canvass script for many years. The other parties haven’t. They have no data therefore to profile those who support independence, those who oppose independence and those who are undecided. That makes it difficult to target voters with appropriate messages.
3. Money. The SNP is sitting on a tidy nest egg of a million quid to kick start the referendum campaign courtesy of the late great Edwin Morgan. The other parties are rooked. There is a double edge to this argument of course because the SNP can count on more donations to support a Yes campaign as the momentum builds whereas the unionist side may not be able to count on that and they start from a position of having a higher level of indebtedness. But certainly if they are looking at whether they really want an early referendum they would factor in the fact that the SNP has the resources right now to run a really first class campaign and they don’t.
4. Uncertainty about whether the result in May really reflects public opinion. The other parties recognise, of course, that the SNP had a terrific result but they are not sure whether this was because voters are really happy with the SNP or whether it is because they were really unhappy with everyone else. They will therefore wish to wait until the local government elections to see whether a similar pattern is established. That will help determine their tactics.
#21 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 10:52 am
And I would respectfully suggest that you are missing one very obvious point. If all that you say is so true, why is the SNP not pressing home its advantage and holding the referendum early?
Answer your questions in a different order (nothing to do with the fact that I find the later ones easier to challenge than the earlier ones!):
3 – Money. The SNP doesn’t necessarily need money for the Westminster election or even the European election. The Conservatives and the other parties do. Consequently, now is the ideal time to hold a referendum for saving the union, a cause that will have no end of financial backers, because the UK parties won’t have to split resources between winning elections and holding onto the UK. An election in 2015, months after an expensive general election that the SNP won’t spend much on, is a much worse time for the unionist parties to have to bankroll a campaign.
4 – Possibly. I still think, conscious of the AV vote, that when there is significant uncertainty, an electorate will cling onto the status quo rather than risk making a change. That window of opportunity will have closed quite significantly by 2015. SO yes, I agree there are risks involved with Cameron et al going now but I simply believe there are bigger risks to the UK if they choose to wait for three years when, realistically, there is little they can do but watch Salmond make all the running.
2 – For me, the 2011 election showed that it is still the press war and the tv debates that are key. Iain Gray didn’t bomb in the polls because Labour had lousy intelligence or the SNP had a great mailshot, but rather because Salmond trounced him on television when everyone was watching for a change. Good intelligence is good around the margins or in a tight by-election, but I personally don’t see it making the difference in the referendum, whether it’s 2012 or 2015.
1 – Fair point. May 2012 is enough time to get leaders in place and what a baptism of fire for each of them. Is it best to wait for the leader to be more established? One could argue it either way I suppose. I’m a big fan of honeymoon periods but, to be honest, I think it’ll be the Jim Murphys, Peter Mundells, Michael Moores and Alastair Carmichaels that lead the No campaign, officially or unofficially, rather than the Ken Macintoshs and Ruth Davidsons. And, if that is the case, 2012 makes little difference to 2015 in that specific regard.
Good challenges, but I still remain of the view that the UK Government is not only missing a trick in not going early but also doing Scotland a disservice.
#22 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 11:27 am
Why would we hold it early?
You know it is practically unheard of for public opinion to change dramatically during a referendum campaign. If polls show public opinion going one way prior to a referendum, it’s overwhelmingly likely that is the way the referendum outcome will go.
Polls at the moment are quite volatile, reflecting the fact that public opinion is volatile. Electors have not really had time to think about this – most people in my opinion are pretty undecided and it would be wrong to try and hustle them into a decision they are not yet ready to take.
Plus, from our point of view, the local government elections next year are pretty important. If we win control of most local authorities as well as having a majority government in Holyrood that puts us in a much stronger position going into the referendum.
There is no case from our point of view really for holding it early.
#23 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 11:37 am
Indy makes some good points here, Jeff.
1 – With everyone from Billy Connolly to David Tennant being touted as the face of the no campaign (surely putting up a Scot that had to leave Scotland to make their fortune could potentially backfire), I think we’ll see little positive political argument for the Union. Call-Me-Dave, I think, will keep his powder dry for any potential negotiations after the vote.
2 – This, to me, is the biggy. Yes, the SNP received an unprecedented endorsement in May but what does it tell us about voting intentions in any upcoming referendum? I currently wouldn’t put a tenner on the result never mind my house. Things, though, could well be clearer after the local elections and a good result in Glasgow (for either side) could be a key indicator of how things will go in the future.
3 – While the Unionist parties may well spend their pot fighting the next EU campaigns and General Election, they do have the advantage that the MSM will undoubtedly be on the side of the No campaign, saving them a fortune. They will still need a battle chest, true, but the SNP will need twice as much just to reach the same number of people as the Unionist parties.
#24 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 12:15 pm
I suspect David Mundell might play a bigger part in it than Peter Mundell, Jeff 😉
#25 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 1:47 pm
That’s it, I’m just not going to use any names in blog posts or comments ever again. I’m still horribly embarrassed about the ‘Ruth Cameron for Tory leader’ incident.
#26 by Colin on October 5, 2011 - 4:37 pm
Poor old “Peter” Mundell.
#27 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 4:40 pm
I’m refusing to change it as a form of penance.
I think I’m getting mixed up with Peter Murrell which immediately invites imaginings of Nicola Sturgeon and David Mundell which is wrong on….
i think I’ll just stop there.
#28 by Steve on October 5, 2011 - 9:37 am
I don’t think the Tories would ever go for this.
One reason is, although they claim to care about the union, politically losing Scotland would be beneficial to them, so they don’t really have a great deal to lose from allowing the SNP to run their own timetable.
Also, the Tories have bigger fish to fry, welfare reform being a major plank of what they’re trying to achieve. If they were to call a referendum now, then they’d surely have to put some of their welfare reforms on hold, and if they didn’t the Scottish Parliament might try to insist that they do, along the lines of the last post on this blog.
Delaying their welfare reforms would create massive political risk, as the middle-england daily mail type tory voters will be able to put up with a lot from the Tories so long as they believe the welfare state has been properly shaken up and all those scroungers have been forced into low paid work or at least been made to suffer for being poor and disadvantaged.
#29 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 11:50 am
I think we’re seeing (yet another) massive lurch to the right coming from the Tory conference. Watching the tory faithful frothing at the mouth during calls to end the human rights act, to hang work-shy benefit scroungers from lamp posts, to eject asylum seekers into the sea and let them swim home (along with their cats), to give employers big whips to keep their workers in line while removing employment rights for those workers, etc. shows exactly the mindset of some parts of the tory party.
How much of this can the moderates in the party hold back? We’re at the stage where Ken Clarke is the voice of reason in the tory party.
There is always the hope that the party’s in-fighting will escalate. Boris, though never PM material, is still a popular mayor in many quarters and we could well see some sort of power grab by him to consolidate his position even further. Call-Me-Dave might let him just get on with it to remove a potential rival in the party leader stakes. The impact on Scotland, of course, is that Boris’ ambitions need money and Boris has previously called for our budget to be cut and the monies redirected to his backyard.
#30 by Tommy on October 5, 2011 - 9:53 am
The British are perfectly at liberty to hold as many referenda as they wish, on whichever subject they wish, using whatever franchise they wish.
However, if the Unionists win such a referendum, the SNP’s mandate from the electorate to hold a referendum on independence in the latter half of this Parliament remains intact.
In any case, if the British rush to hold their own little referendum, people will see through it as the charade it is:
Why didn’t the British hold a referendum in 1707?
Why did the British refuse to hold a referendum since?
The British had their chance to lead the constitutional debate. Instead, they popped their heads in the sand and kept them there for three centuries. What they can’t accept is that their time is over, and they now have no right to involve themselves in our internal matters.
#31 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 10:01 am
We weren’t (by modern standards) a democracy in 1707.
The SNP mandate is for a referendum, the manifesto (the document on which governments are elected and derive their mandate from) mentions nothing about timing.
#32 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 10:49 am
There were no British in 1707.
#33 by Erchie on October 6, 2011 - 5:52 pm
Why no Independence question in the Devolution referendum? Why did the constitutional Convention shy away from it? Why was even HOLDING a Referendum a deal breaker for the LibDems in 2007?
The Unionists shy away from actually letting the electorate decide
#34 by Malc on October 6, 2011 - 7:54 pm
Well, the SNP decided not to get involved in the 1989-95 Scottish Constitutional Convention, which did not put Labour or the Lib Dems under any pressure to consider independence. The SNP decided before it started that they didn’t want to be involved, but maybe if they had, it would have been given further consideration, though its still unlikely that there would have been a question on it in the referendum. But the SNP could have been involved, and the original devolution settlement could perhaps have been improved by their presence in the Convention – they were certainly invited to be involved on more than one occasion.
For 2007, you’ll have to ask the Lib Dems, but as far as I understand it was Tavish Scott who was opposed to any kind of deal with the SNP.
#35 by Scotsfox on October 6, 2011 - 8:38 pm
The declined to get involved BECAUSE Independence was not on the agenda. Seems like a reasonable position to take. Same goes for Calman.
#36 by Malc on October 6, 2011 - 8:46 pm
It was a chicken and egg scenario. The Campaign for a Scottish Assembly began the Scottish Constitutional Convention, which had originally been the suggestion of SNP leader Gordon Wilson. If the party HAD been involved, independence might have been on the agenda.
Anyway, this is twenty years plus ago. Its all history now.
#37 by Mark Sorin on October 5, 2011 - 10:06 am
Doug Daniel is correct.
I don’t accept Jeff’s assertion that the current time-scale for the debate is damaging Scotland, but that’s a secondary point.
There is a need for reasonable certainty and stability. The Scottish Government has said that a referendum would be a once-in-generation event but that is based on events following the broad outline of the public discourse as it has existed since devolution and which was contained in the parties’ manifestos.
If the UK Government took action from “left field” which disrupts the limited consensus that currently exists and by-passes the Scottish Government to organise its “own” referendum that consensus would be shattered. Jeff himself describes that possibility as “sneaky, it’s tawdry, it’s downright duplicitous.”
In the event of a “No” vote a substantial block of public opinion would likely press for the Scottish Government (perhaps after another parliamentary election) to put the question to the people itself, that would be opposed by others, naturally.
Immediately we would be faced with Québécois-style multiple referenda known as the “neverendum”. Now that would damage Scotland!
There’s no room for constitutional short-cuts in this debate. We are where we are and although the Unionist parties might look back and think they’d have done some things differently – as I’m sure the Nationalist parties would – trying to outflank the SNP it not the responsible thing to do.
Let’s have the debate, it’s a perfectly fair one, and let the Scottish Government put a question to the people in accordance with its mandate.
One final point, there is the very real possibility of a legal challenge to the Scottish Government organising a referendum. Although in my opinion very unlikely to succeed, it may long delay and disrupt the scheduled time-scales. To avoid this and increase certainty the Scottish & UK Governments should add a brief section to the Scotland Bill making clear that referenda in the UK are, as they have always been, “advisory” and that the Scottish Government are just a constitutionally entitled to hold one as any other organ of government.
#38 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 12:20 pm
Just felt like quoting that, because I’m a big head.
#39 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 1:58 pm
Mark, thanks for the comment and apologies for the delay.
I have deliberately combined the arguments of what the UK Government should do and what it could in order to win. I don’t necessarily agree that the UK Government having its own referendum is sneaky and tawdry, it very much depends on the reasons for taking that course of action. There are valid reasons (ending uncertainty that is damaging Scotland) and invalid reasons (we’re more likely to stuff the Nats if we go now).
A No result in a ‘UK referendum’ could well end up with the SNP pushing for its own referendum. Even if that was a Yes result, a 1-1 draw would be a right mess. In practise, I believe that if the UK Government couldn’t get the Scottish Government to sign up to its referendum, then it wouldn’t go ahead. But, the SNP would take a big hit if it was seen to being unreasonable in not agreeing to the earlier referendum. There’s a big ‘if’ in there but I still think there’s a risk there for Salmond.
I agree with you that we need a debate, a deep, wide-ranging, definitive debate. I just don’t see it forthcoming. Questions have been asked of the SNP (I linked to Michael Moore’s 6 questions in the post) and I just don’t see the SNP putting an answer around them at any point up to 2015 or whenever the referendum will be. The more time the SNP has to answer, the more likely they will answer is a fair response to that I suppose.
I agree there is a remote chance of a legal challenge to an SG referendum. I would expect Westminster to resist such challenges but, that said, the risk of a legal challenge is significantly reduced if Westminster holds the referendum given it has the legal competence to represent the Scottish public on constitutional areas.
#40 by James Morton on October 5, 2011 - 10:12 am
The SNP have stated, more than once that the referendum will be held towards the end of this current parliament. Hate to break it to you, but the unionist parties lost this year, and as far as I am aware, the losers don’t get to dictate terms to the winner.
#41 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:02 am
Sure they do.
There are two Parliaments. One where the constitution is within the remit of the Parliament (Westminster) and one where it isn’t (Holyrood).
The mature response from Westminster upon noting the result of the Holyrood election, a win for the SNP (albeit without 50% of the popular vote, crucially), is to grudgingly provide what it is has the power to provide, a legally binding referendum. Westminster is of the belief that delaying such a referendum, now inevitable, is economically damaging to Scotland so is similarly free to make the decision to hold it earlier rather than later.
The strength of a Government is in doing what it doesn’t want to do when the people have spoken. That is the case here and I see no problem with it.
My suspicion is that the objections raised here stem primarily, perhaps even strictly, from the belief that the earlier the referendum is held, the more likely it is that the SNP will lose it. Which is a reasonable objection to hold, but at least be honest about it.
#42 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 11:17 am
No government in the last 60 years has been elected on more than 50% of the popular vote, so its a bit harsh to beat the SNP with a standard that UK Governments can’t meet either.
#43 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:25 am
My point was that, the Westminster Government shouldn’t necessarily cave in to the inevitability of a referendum based on an SNP manifesto commitment given less than 50% of the Scottish voters actually voted SNP.
Not taking away from a phenomenal result.
#44 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 11:38 am
A government has a mandate based on its ability to pass legislation. If it can no longer maintain the support of parliament – if its a minority government, or unpopular within its own ranks – its mandate is questionable. The SNP have a majority at Holyrood, and command the support of the Scottish Parliament to maintain their position as Scottish Government. I’d say that’s enough of a mandate to enact the proposals in its manifesto – assuming those commitments are within the scope of the Scottish Parliament (which is where your argument does have some merit – ask Scott @ Love and Garbage, he’s been banging this drum for ages!).
#45 by Ken on October 5, 2011 - 2:33 pm
Just to note – the turnout barely scraped 50% – nevermind what the ‘winning’ party gathered from the popular vote. The SNP got what, 45% based on a 50% turnout?
#46 by Colin on October 5, 2011 - 4:47 pm
Indeed, it was an embarrasing performance. I’m surprised Salmond is able to show his face.
#47 by Colin on October 5, 2011 - 4:46 pm
I don’t think Westminster can hold legally binding referenda either. Only Parliament is able to make legislation: all referenda in the UK are advisory.
#48 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 5:52 pm
Colin is correct as I pointed out on Twitter. Referendums in the UK are purely consultative.
#49 by gavin on October 5, 2011 - 10:25 am
Cameron,Miliband and Clegg have a problem in England with people clammering for a referendum on the EU. If they launch a bill in Westminster for a Scottish referendum, it would certainly be highjacked by Eurosceptical amendments to include the EU.
#50 by JPJ2 on October 5, 2011 - 10:36 am
Aidan-I saw the response on Newsnight that Alex Salmond gave when he was asked about timing. It was clear and without ambiguity.
It is foolish to pretend that the electorate thought there would be a rapid referendum-lets face it the Coalition (and Labour had they won and it suited) have actioned things NOT in their manifestos (never mind changing the timing 🙂
Don’t underestimate the power of Salmond’s response when he says he will do what he said he would-it is a sufficiently rare action by politicians that it is a cast iron response as far as the majority of the electorate are concerned-and the electorate have not forgotten that all the unionists did not want a referendum EVER, which boosts Salmond’s position even more.
#51 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 10:56 am
It is undoubtedly a good answer that Salmond has available to him – I am doing what the manifesto said I would do. It’s not something we’ve heard very often from the coalition, is it?
However, as the reasons pile up in favour of an early referendum, if Salmond has nothing other than saying it’s what his party proposed back when the manifesto was written, then it will start to sound hollower and hollower.
If 2015 is a better date to hold the referendum than 2012, why can’t Salmond expand on those reasons rather than cling to the simple response that it’s what’s in the manifesto?
#52 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 11:04 am
On timing it’s not a simple response of “it was in the manifesto”. “I told Gordon Brewer at 11pm” doesn’t carry quite the same weight.
#53 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:08 am
I didn’t quite follow that I’m afraid.
#54 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 11:15 am
The manifesto (http://manifesto.votesnp.com/independence) simply says “will bring forward our Referendum Bill in this next parliament”. It doesn’t mention anything about when it will be.
The only statements about the second half of the parliament seem to be interviews on Newsnight and in the Telegraph a few days before the election.
In fact, a cynical reading might be that it leaves the door open to having the referendum after the Parliament finishes, say on the day of the Scottish Parliament election…
#55 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 11:47 am
I don’t understand what this argument you are making is about.
We won a mandate to hold a referendum on independence.
We are under no obligation to hold it within any particular timescale. We will hold it when we choose. We have a mandate to do that.
#56 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:54 am
Well, with less than 50% of the popular vote, how strong that mandate is is debatable.
And surely the SNP has a moral obligation to hold the referendum when it is in Scotland’s best interests, rather than the SNP’s best interests, to do so. I admit of course that it’s not at all clear which date that would be, it may well be 2015, but surely you accept that basic underlying point about moral obligation?
#57 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 12:04 pm
But, Jeff, it’s in the SNP’s best interests to win the referendum and they believe that’s in Scotland’s best interests too! 😉
#58 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 1:48 pm
Aha, touche! That actually stacks up, annoyingly.
#59 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 12:05 pm
I disagree with your assertion (as I made clear) that strength of mandate is based upon obtaining over 50% of the vote, which is historically improbable.
Also – and I’m sure Indy will make this argument – but wouldn’t the SNP argue that their interest and Scotland’s interest are pretty much aligned? Since they stand for what is best for Scotland and all…
#60 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 1:41 pm
It is as strong as our mandate to do anything else. If we have no mandate to hold a referendum on independence then we have no mandate to pass any legislation at all. And that is clearly ridiculous.
Holding a referendum on independence is no different to any other manifesto commitment, it is really up to the government how and when they implement their commitments.
And I do accept the moral obligation point, which is why it is right to hold it when the voters have had a chance to fully consider all the options. At the moment they don’t even know what the options are.
The status quo? What is that anyway – is it post Scotland Bill which hasn’t been passed yet never mind put in place so people have had no opportunity to judge what difference, if any, the new powers make? Is devolution max going to be an option? What is that? How would it work? Would Westminster agree to it? You know there are quite as many unanswered questions about what staying in the Union would mean for Scotland than there are questions about what independence would mean.
Why do you want to push people into a vote before these matters have been properly considered? What’s the big rush?
#61 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 12:06 pm
My point is exactly that there is no obligation to hold it on any particular timescale, and the argument that the SNP have lashed themselves to a 2014/2015 manifesto commitment mast is incorrect.
#62 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 1:46 pm
Who is making that argument?
What the SG is saying is that they intend to proceed according to the timetable set out during the election. That is not set in stone, of course you have to allow for “events”. But that is the timetable they are following.
There is no great demand from real people out there as opposed to politicians chasing headlines to go any faster.
#63 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 5:43 pm
It comes up quite frequently when debating the timing, both here and elsewhere. It irritates the crap out of me.
#64 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 11:36 am
Where is your evidence that the Scottish people want to have an early referendum though? That’s the only valid reason to consider it. But there is no pressure coming from outside the political bubble – and what is being said in the political bubble is just a lot of spin and nonsense for the most part.
Most voters are pretty sensible you know. They know this is a big decision. You don’t rush big decisions, you take your time and get it right. And in the meantime life goes on.
#65 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:49 am
My evidence primarily revolves around the damage that waiting causes to the Scottish economy – the decision on the Green Investment Bank as mentioned in my post for example. The decision on RAF bases is another – why shouldn’t a UK Minister apply a 25% probability in his resource review that Scotland will be independent soon when it comes to deciding the future for Scottish bases, for example?
Now, who knows what the Scottish public thinks of this, if anything at all, but there is little argument that waiting for a referendum that does cause uncertainty is good for investment decisions in Scotland.
#66 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 11:59 am
Mmmm – there’s a conspiracy theory that the probability of independence is exactly why our capability of launching aircraft was reduced whilst garrisoning armed troops (loyal to the Crown, of course) in Scotland.
I think, though, these same decisions would have been made regardless of who was in power at Holyrood. In fact, it could have been worse if the threat of a bad referendum result (for the Unionists) didn’t exist.
#67 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 12:05 pm
I have some tinfoil hats here, could give you a good price….
#68 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 12:28 pm
Yeah, I think we’ll need them when the beeb turn on their new transmitters for the No campaign! ;-p
#69 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 1:48 pm
But that has been a factor since 2007. What has changed now to make it suddenly imperative that we have the referendum next year as opposed to 2015?
#70 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 2:09 pm
There’s no “imperative†as such but if it was a reason to go early in 2007 then it is just as much of a reason to go early now in 2011/2012.
And, well, it’s important to keep the two arguments I am making very much separate.
I believe the referendum should be held next year because the issue holds Scotland back, whether economically or through the amount of media/Parliament time used up considering a question that won’t be asked for another four years.
I believe Cameron & unionist co should go early on the referendum (very different to what ‘should’ happen and very much the main reason for the post) because he’s much more likely to win it if he does and it eludes me as to why he is allowing Salmond to have the advantage of 2015 in his favour.
#71 by Indy on October 6, 2011 - 8:51 am
Well I don’t agree it holds Scotland back and while I may not think the media/political debate is all that constructive at present I do think voters deserve the time to look at all the options and mull them over before being asked to decide. At present they don’t even know what all the options are. There is this thing called Devo Max hovering around but no-one quite knows what it is although opinion polls tell us it has majority support. That is hardly a good basis on which to ask people to come to a considered position. We have at least to allow the unionist parties the time to thrash out their own positions, even though they are quite ridiculously calling for a referendum before they have had the chance to do that. Otherwise we are asking people to choose between independence and a status quo which is not really a status quo.
#72 by JPJ2 on October 5, 2011 - 11:07 am
“as the reasons pile up in favour of an early referendum”
Jeff, I don’t think you have convinced many responders that the reasons are “piling up.”
Also, unfortunately I don’t see much evidence that the global recession is truly over, so the SNP are right to focus on the economy.
I also don’t sense that the electorate are desperate for an early referendum-if they were, then you would be right to suggest that Salmond’s defence would be unsustainable.
The fact that opinion polls show a still further strengthening in SNP support in the full knowlegde that the SNP are not going to hold a referendum soon, is strong evidence that the electorate is not desperate to have a referedum on a revised timescale of the
unionists-such timescale having suffered a minor timing adjustment from NEVER to NOW 🙂
#73 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:12 am
“I don’t think you have convinced many responders that the reasons are “piling up.—
You can’t blame guy for trying. Say it often enough and people might believe it etc 😉
To be fair to you, I suspect the dog days of 2015 will be a lot quieter than early 2012 from an SG perspective, so that is an argument in favour of waiting, irrespective of the non-sensical argument that an electorate can’t decide on its future during a recession. (It doesn’t take long to decide Yes or No and I am sure Cabinet Ministers are responsible enough to keep doing their day jobs during a campaign)
That said, is there not an argument that difficult economic times make the need for independence more pressing and means the referendum should be held as soon as possible?
#74 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 11:17 am
Quite a few of us fickle hearted Unionists were fully on board with Wendyism..
(mind you, I have never considered myself a Unionist, I just get charactarised that way)
#75 by JPJ2 on October 5, 2011 - 11:17 am
Aidan-You need to answer this question-what evidence can you produce that says the electorate wants an early referendum, or that they did not realise that Salmond would hold one in the second half of his term?
I can’t resist pointing out to you that there was plenty of evidence that the electorate wanted a referendum at some point-to which the unionist response as to the timing was “never”.
#76 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 11:43 am
I’m not arguing in favour of having one earlier. I’m arguing that the timing isn’t in the SNP manifesto.
#77 by JPJ2 on October 5, 2011 - 11:26 am
Jeff said: “That said, is there not an argument that difficult economic times make the need for independence more pressing and means the referendum should be held as soon as possible?”
Given E=MCsquared may not be entirely true, I would be happy for the referendum to be backdated to 1979-with the UK Government being obliged to make formal apologies-and reparations-for the suppression of the McCrone Report on oil 🙂
.
#78 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:29 am
Having recently seen the wealth and standard of living in oil-rich Norway, that would indeed be nice.
#79 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 12:25 pm
I’d argue Norway is better off because of it’s Social Democratic politics, in a similar way to Finland and Sweden.
It’s not, as they say, what you have. It’s how you use it.
#80 by An Duine Gruamach on October 5, 2011 - 1:04 pm
They’re lucky they don’t have to put up with the government another country votes for, as well.
#81 by Mark Sorin on October 5, 2011 - 11:59 am
Jeff,
You’ve been commendably busy in responding to comments but I notice you haven’t addressed the points made by Doug Daniel and me.
Can we take your silence as acceptance that your post was misguided? 🙂
#82 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 12:02 pm
Will do a full sweep to make sure I pick them all up shortly. You have first mover disadvantage in that it’s easier to pick up the comments that are most recently left.
But no, the post wasn’t misguided, I’ll never accept that!
#83 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 12:10 pm
While I don’t agree with your call for an early referendum, you’ve sparked some quite healthy debate. Always a good thing, IMHO. 😉
#84 by Iain Menzies on October 5, 2011 - 12:07 pm
Very interesting post.
Couple of things that jump out, mostly from comments.
The idea that there isn’t any evidence that Scots want an early ref: I dont think it matters what is the exact wording of a manifesto, or of a newsnicht interview, who reads manifestos anyway? The only manifesto Ive read is the 1978 Tory manifesto (6 years prior to my birth) how many scots actually sat and went from front to back of the SNP manifesto!? Also for YEARS I have had nat friends tell me that the Scottish people want a referendum, and that polls prove it. So im sure there is LOTS of polling evidence.
The issue of the legitimacy of a referendum and an SNP boycott:
If, and when, the ref is held, I get he distinct impression that the only people who would call into question its validity are uber nats if the Unionist side wins.
If the SNP boycotts the referendum it would be the biggest political mistake the SNP ever make. Such a move, irrespective of the question, would totally destroy any sense of the SNP as being a party of anything other than raving numpties.
The only issue about legitimacy is on turn out. I would love to hear how the SNP justify taking Scotland out of the Union on a minority. Even if every person who voted for the SNP in May vote yes to Independence, which i doubt, that still amounts to a little less than 20% of the Scottish public.
#85 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 12:22 pm
Yep, Iain, and that’s my only fear of Westminster calling the referendum rather than the SG, that they stick some sort of (unrealistically high) quorum requirement.
I think, though, that the Scottish people, secure in the knowledge that they will get a referendum, are relaxed about the actual timing. It could be called tomorrow, it could be called in 3 years time, it’ll be much of a muchness to them. Yes, it is highly likely that result could very well be influenced by what ever is happening in Scotland, the UK and beyond, as well as the track record of both the Westminster and Scottish governments (and the individual parties that stand in them) so later does suit the SNP better (at the moment). With Osborne following parts of plan McB, with Milland calling for more implementation of plan McB, with the Lib Dems claiming credit for creating the conditions for plan McB, things are going well if you’re an independence supporter.
#86 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 12:41 pm
This is a tedious strand of argument.
Before the election, people were clamouring for the SNP to say when they would actually hold the referendum. To the surprise of people like Gordon Brewer, Salmond actually gave a rough timescale, thus ruining their “oh you won’t tell us when you’ll have it though, will you?” argument. Having done that before the election, the electorate were now being promised “vote for us and any independence referendum will come in the latter half of the term”. To go back on that now would be dishonest.
It’s fairly obvious what would have happened if the SNP had gone back on it and decided to hold it early – they would have been massively criticised for moving the goalposts purely to capitalise on the election result. Those same unionists that are demanding that the SNP hold their election now would have been frothing at the mouth at seeing the SNP trying to pull the rug out from under their feet.
It’s amazing, really – we slag off politicians for being dishonest, and yet when they actually do exactly what they said they would do, they still get criticised. They might as well just not tell us anything.
#87 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 12:49 pm
I can’t access it just now, maybe someone else can, but I’m reasonably certain that the SNP manifesto is crystal clear in stating that it intended to hold a referendum in the latter half of the parliamentary term.
So I’m not going to have a go at Aidan just yet, but I wouldn’t be feeling too confident about your assertion there….
#88 by Don McC on October 5, 2011 - 12:57 pm
Fraid not Jeff. Aidan’s been asked to prove his assertion before and he kindly obliged with a link:
http://manifesto.votesnp.com/contents
#89 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 1:13 pm
Fair enough, I stand corrected, apologies Aidan. I’ve now also checked and can see no manifesto commitment on the timing of a referendum.
What was I saying about if someone (Salmond) says something often enough, then people start to believe it….?
#90 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 1:15 pm
It’s irrelevant anyway Jeff – it was made clear by Salmond himself. Whether it’s in the manifesto or just spoken on a TV programme, it’s in the public record now and the SNP would be hypocritical to go back on that. It’s yesterday’s news, so I have no idea why Iain Gray and all the senior Tories are going on about it.
#91 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 1:22 pm
Yes, I’m sure you’d take the same view if the situation was the other way around.
A party’s contract with the electorate is the manifesto, there’s no getting away from that. I agree with you if you think it isn’t realistically going to make much of a difference in the end but nonetheless it does significantly undermine Salmond’s argument that in waiting until 2015 he’s merely obeying a manifesto commitment.
#92 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 1:41 pm
Obviously it is quite a tedious point and I’ll stop correcting folk on it when they stop waving something that’s demonstrably untrue as a knock down argument.
There’s going to be a lot of that sort of thing in the independence referendum and I’m getting my eye in early 😉
#93 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 1:44 pm
There’s a press release in that for a yoonyonist party if they want it I’d have thought…..
#94 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 2:03 pm
Not at all tedious. I made the same point a while back after a few Tories were goading the SNP to bring in Local Income Tax now they have a majority. I was happy to point out to them, to their surprise, that LIT wasn’t in the manifesto.
#95 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 2:27 pm
I am sorry I think it is tedious. It’s a typically tedious and pointless procedural wrangle, the kind of thing Holyrood specialises in and which bores voters to death.
There will be a referendum on independence. The Scottish Government was elected on a manifesto which promised one. They did not include a date in the manifesto – and have never subsequently claimed that they did include a date – but they set out the likely timetable during the election campaign.
They are going to stick to that timetable unless some compelling reason arises for changing tit.. The location of the UK Green Investment Bank is not a compelling reason. You don’t take far reaching decisions on the long term future of your country for short term gain. And you only ask people to vote on something that is as important as whether to stay in the Union or become independent once they have had time to fully consider all the options.
If unionist politicians want to continue the tactic of calling Alex Salmond a big yellow-belly for not calling an early referendum – even while they are woefully unprepared to fight one and are scratching around to find celebrities to lead the campaign, a job they should be doing themselves – that is up to them but there is no evidence that such calls have any traction with the electorate. And the SNP is rather more interested in what the electorate thinks than they are in what opposition MSPs think.
#96 by Doug Daniel on October 5, 2011 - 4:04 pm
“If unionist politicians want to continue the tactic of calling Alex Salmond a big yellow-belly for not calling an early referendum – even while they are woefully unprepared to fight one and are scratching around to find celebrities to lead the campaign, a job they should be doing themselves – that is up to them”
Is it just me, or does this tactic seem strangely reminiscent of kids at school who goad the well-mannered gentle giant in their class, knowing he’s not going to react, only to one day find themselves reeling when he decides to act?
#97 by Richard on October 5, 2011 - 4:34 pm
Sorry to say, I think you’re off the mark here Jeff.
“There is little doubt that the delay in holding a referendum is damaging Scotland”
I’d like to see some evidence for that. Recent economic figures show that Scotland is outperforming the rest of the UK.
#98 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 4:42 pm
And just think by how much extra Scotland could be outperforming the rest of the UK if the disruptive independence question could be taken care of.
Obviously I don’t have evidence and there is a subjectivity at play here so happy to agree to a disagree as to what the impact of a referendum result hanging in the balance actually is.
#99 by Angus McLellan on October 5, 2011 - 5:00 pm
I think things would look very different if you cared about saving the Union as the Prime Minister says he does.
The SNP-initiated referendum lies in the future and some unknown unknown might come along in the next year or two which ensures that it remains a hypothetical. It would be very courageous of Cameron to force a vote which he might well lose when there was still a chance of avoiding it.
#100 by Malc on October 5, 2011 - 5:54 pm
Each of the PM, Deputy PM and the Leader of the Opposition do claim how important Scotland and the Union is to them.
Its so important that not one of them thought to mention either in their recent speeches to their respective conferences.
#101 by Angus McLellan on October 5, 2011 - 10:35 pm
They all mentioned ‘Britain’ though. Anyway, whether you believe Dave cares or not, is he likely to want to be the last PM of the UKofGB&NI? (To answer my own question, why not? He may be aiming to go down in history as the first English PM.)
#102 by Jeff on October 5, 2011 - 11:30 pm
Why should Scotland always get marked out for special attention? Why is Scotland always the one jumping up shouting ‘me, me, me’?
I’m sure Cornwall and Wales are important to Cameron, Clegg and Miliband but they didn’t get a mention either.
So what.
#103 by Malc on October 6, 2011 - 8:08 am
They don’t make claims that those two places are fundamental to the Union.
#104 by Indy on October 6, 2011 - 8:58 am
Neither Cornwall nor Wales are holding a referendum on independence so he had no particular reason to mention them.
And the fact that he didn’t mention Scotland shows that he has absolutely no intention of calling an early referendum.
Ta- dah!
#105 by Jeff on October 6, 2011 - 9:59 am
Harumph, I grudgingly accept your 2nd paragraph there Indy. 2015 it is.
Harumph I say!
(I still don’t think Scotland deserves a special pat on the head for merely existing)
#106 by Malc on October 6, 2011 - 10:01 am
Neither does anyone else Jeff.
#107 by Barbarian on October 5, 2011 - 5:01 pm
The SNP should be holding it early, since the longer we wait, the more chance there is for the SG to screw up somewhere.
Remember, the SNP are now the Scottish Government, and with a majority. People tend to forget that Westminster decides how much money we get. The SNP has promised a lot, and certainly more than can be realistically achieved. They cannot use the argument of having a minority government anymore.
#108 by Barbarian on October 5, 2011 - 5:19 pm
Followiong on from my last comment (distracted!).
It’s easy with hindsight, but perhaps the referendum should have been planned for next year.
#109 by Gaz on October 5, 2011 - 5:29 pm
Jeff,
Your logic, as usual, is pretty sound.
There are, however, two glaring political realities which will prevent the UK Governemnt ever holding a referendum.
Firstly, despite all their claims to the contrary, they are absolutely bricking its outcome. Based on intelligence going back many years now, there are many in the SNP who have always believed that finding a way to hold the referendum would be the hard bit. That is not to say that the outcome of a referendum it is a foregone conclusion but having climbed the higher hurdle it is very sensible to gather oneself and prepare properly for the next one.
Secondly, and alluded to elsewhere, no Westminster government (but especially a Tory led one) could get away with holding a referendum on Scottish Independence without holding one on EU membership also which, let’s face it, is a far more important issue to Middle England.
Your analogy with the AV referendum is off the mark too, I think. AV is simply a technical and abstract fudge, Independence is about the basic human condition; dignity, self-respect and self-reliance. It is on those rocks that the Unionist arguments will founder – whenever they are put.
#110 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 5:42 pm
Ah, good old grudge and grievance. I’m sure that’ll work out well.
#111 by Gaz on October 5, 2011 - 7:08 pm
Assuming that was actually meant to be a reply to my post, it is:
a) genuinely disappointing,
b) completely baffling and
c) extraordinarily encouraging
I have to congratulate you on being so clever.
#112 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 8:44 pm
Yep, it was – independence is about political arrangements, Scots already live in a democratic country.
Implying that we lack dignity, self-respect or self-reliance is a hoary old chestnut that needs mocking as much as the “too wee, too poor” argument would had anybody ever actually seriously made it.
#113 by Gaz on October 5, 2011 - 9:57 pm
Good grief – you make Independence sound like setting up some council sub-committee. Politics is a human sport not an academic exercise.
Despite all the hot air about currencies, institutions, defence etc this is going to boil down to one simple point:
With Independence we decide, without Independence somebody else decides.
The issue at stake is WHO decides. WHAT is decided is the staple of subsequent elections.
Unionists are desperately trying to focus on the WHAT as much as possible which either shows they do not understand what the terms of the debate will be or that they know they can’t win by arguing about the WHO.
Not being one to underestimate my political opponents (since I made that mistake in 1984), I suspect the latter.
#114 by Aidan on October 5, 2011 - 11:11 pm
Scots already get to decide, by voting in democratic elections.
Independence is about HOW Scots decide, which is a rather different issue. It’s a matter of process, not fundamental rights.
#115 by Don McC on October 6, 2011 - 1:49 am
If memory serves, Scots votes for Labour at the last GE. We now have a tory government – oh, I see what you did there! :-p
#116 by Aidan on October 6, 2011 - 10:11 am
Sometimes you’re outvoted, that’s democracy. That doesn’t mean it’s not democratic.
#117 by Don McC on October 6, 2011 - 11:13 am
Ah, but is it democracy when almost the entire nation vote one way yet end up with a government not of their choice?
#118 by Jeff on October 6, 2011 - 11:20 am
It is if they snub the option of independence when they are given that choice.
#119 by Craig Gallagher on October 6, 2011 - 3:37 am
Sorry Aiden, but this is a bit disingenuous from someone who is on record as supporting the devolution settlement as is (and possibly further).
Devolving powers, whether in part or in full, is very much about WHO decides. There’s a process to it, sure, but at the end of the day you’re deliberately saying only a part of the greater electorate of the UK gets to make this call: you’re segregating decisions based on which people get to have a say. Implicit in that action is a recognition that the needs and interests of those people are presumably different, which is exactly what the Scottish Constitutional Convention spent a decade arguing before and after 1997 about the Scots.
An Independence referendum essentially asks the Scottish electorate – as defined by the 1997 UK Parliament – who they feel should make decisions on the matters that remain reserved: the wider UK electorate or a whole, or the Scots themselves. That’s the extent of the process involved, and to say otherwise is obfuscation.
#120 by Aidan on October 6, 2011 - 10:17 am
Well, “who” in the sense that it decides the set of politicians in charge, yes, but not “who” as in “The scottish people”.
Process is important, yes. And you’re correct that the independence referendum essentially asks whether we should continue to pool our decision making on some issues with the other nations of the UK.
But that doesn’t mean that it’s about, as Gaz asserted, a matter of “dignity, self-respect and self-reliance”. That’s the part I object to – we’re not an oppressed people.
#121 by JPJ2 on October 6, 2011 - 8:51 am
Hi Aidan “needs mocking as much as the “too wee, too poor†argument would had anybody ever actually seriously made it”
Donald Dewar said the economic state of Scotland after independence would be like Bangladesh, then regarded as the poorest country in the world.
He wasn’t joking, merely plain daft.
#122 by Aidan on October 6, 2011 - 10:14 am
[Citation needed]
#123 by Rols on October 5, 2011 - 5:36 pm
I’ve observed David Cameron for a long time now and watched nearly every word he has said on Scotland. I can say this: he will definitely not hold a pre-emptive referendum.
#124 by Indy on October 5, 2011 - 6:11 pm
One of the things that strikes me about some of the comments here is that people seem to regard the referendm as something that could be won or lost according to how clever the politcal footwork is on either side. It’s all about gaining a short term advantage.
At the risk of sounding too po faced we will be asking the Scottish people to make a decision with historic consequences.
Nobody should really be playing games around that. Politicians on all sides need to make some effort here to rise to the occasion.
#125 by Steve on October 5, 2011 - 8:21 pm
I’d just like to say that on this issue I agree with almost everything Indy says. It really is amazing how hard some people seem to find it to believe that the SNP will tread the path that they’ve been pretty clear about all along.
There will be a referendum in the second half of the Parliament, we all know this is going to happen.
What I think is still in question though is whether there will be two or three options, and in my opinion that will depend on how likely the SNP think they are to win a straight yes/no vote.
#126 by Allan on October 5, 2011 - 7:28 pm
Two points…
1) I’m not sure that the “refusal” to hold an early referendum is actually damaging Scotland any more than George’s marvelous economic medecine. If anything, the thing that will be damaging Scotland is every “unionist” politicial talking up the “refusal” to hold a referendum at a time not convenient to the SNP’s timetable. I said in a post on my own blog just after the Holyrood election (http://humbug3.blogspot.com/2011/05/lets-talk-about-independence.html) that Labour claimed that the SNP would be obsessed with Independence, yet since the election it has been the London based parties that have been obsessed. This has not changed since June.
2) I suspect that Jeff has a higher opinion of this government than I have. Whatever is the case, I think that the Cambot doesn’t really have the political foresight or cojones to call an independence plebicite/referendum. The way his administration have been buffeted about since Hackergate does not make me think that Cameron will take the risk (and it is a risk – the polls suggest a narrowing of the pro union lead, whether this is a rogue or the start of a trend is another matter). With the economy continuing to tank, i suspect that Cameron’s own re-election chances will more and more take precidence over a risky plebicite.
By the way, can I say that I think the referendum will be on 7 May 2015.
#127 by Observer on October 5, 2011 - 8:13 pm
My tuppence worth.
The Tories won’t launch an early referendum because there is no one to lead the No campaign. Labour have used the excuse of saying they won’t share a platform with Cameron (as if he is a member of the BNP) to give them time to position. Cameron knows if he was perceived as the No campaign leader in a referendum he called, he would be giving Scotland away. Eck would be able to mobilise swiftly if Cameron called it without Labour support, which is why Cameron won’t. He doesn’t have any divisions in Scotland.
Salmond doesn’t want an early referendum because he knows he wouldn’t win it. He is playing a two track long game, hoping to include the fabled third option as a fall back position if the Yes vote doesn’t come through. Even if all we get is FFA, then he can say he delivered it.
Which of course begs the question whether Cameron would agree to that.
The dog that isn’t barking is Labour. that’s the piece of the jigsaw that’s missing. I think nobody can say for certain when we will get the referendum or what will be on it, until they join in the game.
It is a game, all of politics is, but Indy is right the objective should be to get the constitutional position that the most people want.
#128 by Barbarian on October 6, 2011 - 12:27 am
I don’t think any politician, regardless of their intentions, wants the referendum soon. The reasoning being that there is simply a lack of clarity as to what independence will entail, and therefore it is difficult to provide a solid counter to the argument.
To try and explain what I mean, just say that the referendum had been held a month after the Scottish elections. The SNP would probably have walked it. The opposition was in total disarray.
I’ve suggested earlier that holding it during the council elections is probably a better idea, partly because it would be “disguised” with the council elections.
But I don’t think Salmond will risk that. Even with the current popularity of the SNP, independence is a totally different ball game to devolution. It is asking people to make a fundamental change to their lives. He has one shot at it, and he must get it right.
The biggest danger is that something fundamental goes wrong with the Scottish Government. There are a few potential banana skins out there, not least the Edinburgh trams.
#129 by Craig Gallagher on October 6, 2011 - 3:42 am
Everything I want to argue has essentially been said by Indy and several others (one of the drawbacks of being five hours behind the majority of commenters) so I’ll sum up what I think by this simple statement.
Independence is not a game. It’s not even an election campaign, when trickery and smokescreens are sadly no longer condemned as a subversion of the will of the people. This is a question that has international consequences, and for that reason can’t be allowed to sink to the level of a General Election campaign.
For that reason, if no other, should the Scottish or UK governments make the decision on when to hold it based on polling data or political expediency. I hold faith that this Scottish Government will be brave and honest and announce the date rather far in advance, leaving enough time for a grown-up debate about why we’re having this referendum and what the consequences are, either way.
But then, I’m a naive idealist.
#130 by Gaz on October 6, 2011 - 9:51 am
Hear, hear, Craig.
It is fair to say that many in the SNP never believed we would be in this position. The hysteria being created by our opponents is perfectly understandable because if we didn’t think we’d get into this position it is pretty safe to say that they never dreamed it would happen and are consequently a little ill-prepared.
This may sound a bit pious, but even though we didn’t expect to be here (at least as quickly) we have been preparing for it for decades, and especially in the last 10 – 15 years.
That is because the SNP believes in its objective and that no good work will ever go to waste. Everything we do is an investment for the future. Everyone I know in the SNP has always been aware that the fruits of their labour could come long after their own time had come and gone – and they were all perfectly comfortable in that knowledge.
To summarise, the SNP is the ultimate long game player in Scottish Politics and it is not going to be bounced into a short game to suit the agenda of others. The SNP knows that the longer the campaign, the more people will get used to the idea that Independence is normal.
With every passing day, the hysteria of the unionists is slowly but surely backing them onto ground upon which they have no prospect of winning. Don’t expect the SNP to stop them.
#131 by Craig Gallagher on October 6, 2011 - 4:54 pm
You’re pretty much right about all of that Gaz. Part of me wants King Eck to start quoting Napoleon whenever he’s Gordon-Brewered on Newsnight:
“Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake”
#132 by Indy on October 6, 2011 - 7:56 am
But why are we even debating the timing? What is that debate even about? It’s pointless. And it’s a bit ridiculous for Labour and the Tories to be saying bring it on when you are in the midst of quite fundamental reviews of your own positons and have no new leadership in place. Are they really saying those are the circumstances in which they want to engage in a debate about constitutional options? Because it is not just indepedence that voters need clarity on – they also need clarity on what staying in the Union would mean. And they don’t have that because they don’t know what unionist parties even want.
#133 by Aidan on October 6, 2011 - 10:54 am
Oh, I definitely don’t want a referendum now – I want an open, participatory constitutional process working on 3 options: Scotland Bill+, FFA/DevoMax/IndyLite, Fully Independence; then a long campaign.
#134 by CassiusClaymore on October 6, 2011 - 9:13 am
I don’t think we are high on Dave’s agenda – revealingly, he didn’t even mention Scotland in his speech yesterday.
CC
#135 by Malc on October 6, 2011 - 9:55 am
Yep – I noticed that too….
#136 by Lost Highlander on October 6, 2011 - 10:58 am
Having read all the posts I have noticed we tend to be looking at this from Scotlands electorate/SNP/Parliament view. That is all well and good but we really should look at it from David Camerons view.
1) Cameron is from the Unionist party calling a referendum that could damage that Union is really bad form and would not look good from his support. And why call a referendum if you do not know the answer you will get.
The polls that have come out have shown large minorities for staying in the Union and for Independence but that the majority are undecided. That is not something that a political animal like Cameron will risk his capital on.
2) Another risk to his political capital is that Cameron as his staff will tell him is not looked fondly on in Scotland. None of his party are. He cannot be the leader of this and so must let another be the front man/woman. That is not good as he will also know that this is likely to mean a Labour party appointment. So he will reason that if the referendum is a strong No he will not get the credit it will be the labour party. A close shave where it comes close but still a No he will get the blame and if Scotland does want independence he will also get the blame. He cannot come out of this good.
3) Finally he does not need to call a referndum he can wait. He will get the opportunity to weaken the case as times goes on just like the SNP has for strengthening the case. It is a hold on his erstwhile allies the Liberals who are much more exposed up here and he can hope that the new leader in Scotland of his party may well turn there fortunes around.
So in the end I dont see an early referendum.
#137 by ReasonableNat on October 6, 2011 - 12:50 pm
Yeah, I think that’s basically spot on. If he calls the referendum and loses it he’s toast, with independence holding level with union in the polls (within margins of error) that would be a ridiculous risk to take. At least if has hasn’t called it he has a chance of holding his position in the aftermath. OK, if he won it would be fine, but would you bet your career on a coin toss?
#138 by Jeff on October 6, 2011 - 1:06 pm
Fair enough, strong points.
I don’t really see from an intuitive point of view how waiting can be the best play for both Nats and unionists but your arguments are certainly convincing.
#139 by Erchie on October 6, 2011 - 5:56 pm
Type your comment here
It says, clearly and unambiguously in the manifesto that the Scotland Bill would be dealt with first, which implies that a Referendum wasn’t going to happen in 2010 or 2011 at least
#140 by Scottish republic on October 6, 2011 - 10:01 pm
“”””It’s sneaky, it’s tawdry, it’s downright duplicitous. But, it’s politics and a win is a win. You bank it and move on. Just look at the sobbing mess that is was the Liberal Democrat policy of voting reform. That could be the independence movement this time next year.””””””””
I think you evidently underestimate the SNP as do the Brit nats.
In any case there are advantages for the SNP if the Brit nats hold an early referendum.
If it isn’t won we hold another one later.
Moreover, the Scotland Bill is dead, amendments are worthless to an already poor bill that will be rejected by the Scottish government.