‘You take the low road and I’ll take the high road and I’ll be in bonnie independent Scotland afooooore ye.’
Now, these warbling words will not form the opening line of Alex Salmond’s set piece speech at this weekend’s SNP Conference but they might as well do. The half a year since the storming election result in May has seen the Nationalist camp calmly and diligently go about their business, simultaneously advancing their cause of independence (as proven by favourable polling evidence), while the various unionist parties have squawked and clucked directionlessly as if the sky is about to fall on their heads. Which metaphorically it may well do when the independence referendum comes around, if a Yes result is delivered.
The latest strategy from the unionist camp is to hold the Scotland Bill up as being the most significant transfer of powers from Westminster to Holyrood in 300 years, a boast that they hope will distract Scots away from the underlying question of full independence by demanding attention is paid to the tax changes that are still being ironed out.
It won’t work.
Scots are proving remarkably pragmatically nonplussed when it comes to delivery of extra powers to Holyrood from Westminster, almost to the point where an expectation exists that such powers continue to arrive over the border on the conveyor belt of devolution. This situation has ensured that the SNP will always have the consolation prize of further independence by stealth, as opposed to its preferred result of full independence by referendum.
However, what I don’t understand, and this is what I do hope Alex Salmond will explain in his speech, sung or otherwise, is why the SNP is offering its backpocket consolation prize alongside its prized objective of full independence on the referendum ballot slip. Surely a straight up and down Yes/No to full independence is more likely to return a Yes vote if Scots didn’t have the option to split the difference, compromise and vote for Devo Max. Give anyone a choice of more than two options and they will almost always select one from the middle; it’s a proven conjuror’s trick and it’s something that the SNP should bear in mind if they are offering three futures rather than only two.
I suspect that Salmond has shied away from the risk of putting everything on the table and ending up going backwards. There is a danger to the SNP that decades of hoping and years of planning may well result in one terrible word from a one-question referendum – No. The wind could be knocked out of the SNP’s sails and the momentum could be momentarily lost but with monumental repercussions – a bitter leadership contest, factions emerging, back to the dark days of the 80s etc etc.
But is that safety first approach of guaranteeing a little bit of extra momentum worth the risk of missing out on the 2-3% of yes votes that could make all the difference? That’s one for the SNP to consider and answer.
Don’t get me wrong, SNP activists will be going into this Conference pinching themselves at the position they are in and full square behind the First Minister as their leader. I remember well the evident delight that party members had during Inverness 2009 and Glasgow 2009 when the party fortunes amounted to little more than a wafer-thin minority Government and a referendum that was situated somewhere between a hope and a prayer away. Nonetheless, I wouldn’t be surprised if some Nats have just a niggle of concern at the extra question being offered in the coming referendum.
When I took part in the Guardian’s blogging panel considering the future of the ‘Disunited Kingdom’, I was harangued, quite understandably, for not being fundamentally pro-independence enough, despite admitting quite freely that I’ll probably be voting Yes to full independence when the referendum comes around. The irony, quite possibly lost on my detractors, is that the satisfaction that I have with even a federal UK is seemingly one that I share with Alex Salmond himself, though I daresay even the most devout Nationalists wouldn’t say Salmond wasn’t pro-independence enough for any forum. Not yet anyway.
Alex Salmond once promised, and delivered, a political earthquake in the unlikely hunting ground of Glasgow East. Across all of Scotland, through hedging his bets with a second question, Salmond is already backpedalling on what can be delivered through his independence referendum and I just wonder if, far from the earthquake of independence, the wheels will come off the hefty SNP juggernaut as a result of not being brave enough. Nick Clegg went for the ‘miserable little compromise’ of AV in the end, is Salmond doing the same with Devo Max in the eyes of the SNP faithful?
After all, when a nation’s independence is at stake, is there really a middle road to be taken? It must be the strategic high wire road for the SNP or it will be the high jump for full independence.
#1 by Alasdair on October 20, 2011 - 7:16 am
He’s floating Devo Max as a way of throwing the Unionists into disarray. They will split on the issue and London will ultimately refuse to accept it on the ballot paper. When Scottish people see federalism is not on offer support for independence will rise. That is what I think he’s up to. Working so far.
#2 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 20, 2011 - 8:20 am
” why the SNP is offering its backpocket consolation prize alongside its prized objective of full independence on the referendum ballot slip”
Why is everyone in the blogosphere suddenly treating this as a cast-iron fact?
#3 by James on October 20, 2011 - 11:41 am
There’s not much other way to read their position other than a desire for someone – anyone – to come up with a devo max model. See this release, for instance.
.. etc..
#4 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 20, 2011 - 1:39 pm
A desire for somebody else to come up with one is hardly the same as the SNP offering one, though, is it? Lately everyone’s saying it’s a done deal, and I think it’s far from it. The SNP will campaign for full independence, if nobody will stand on devo max there’s no justifiable way to put it on the ballot.
#5 by Silve on October 20, 2011 - 8:48 am
“The breaking up of the only country that stood against the Nazis throughout the second world war can only be bittersweet”
I thought many countries fought against the Nazis, including British colonies
#6 by Jeff on October 20, 2011 - 9:31 am
A commonly held view Silve, as I found during a Twitter-storm on the subject recently.
As much as I won’t have an off-topic line in a separate article ramroad this post, many countries fought them indeed, and I wasn’t seeking to take away from that, but I happened to be made aware of this particular fact by someone who studies WW2, found it interesting and decided to use it. Note that the key distinction is ‘throughout’ WW2, i.e. 1939-45.
As I say though, it’s off-topic and no need to discuss it.
#7 by Iain Menzies on October 20, 2011 - 9:39 am
unless you country Canada and Australia as ‘countries’ which you probably should….but considering the imperial complications of their foreign policy your point probably stands.
#8 by Silve on October 20, 2011 - 11:16 am
Jeff, World War II is long overdue a good hard look especially in terms of the UK’s warped view of the world.
I think a useful start is to take Norman Davies’s advice and stop looking at it as a discreet war that took place in 1939 to 1945 (funny how the Americans always think their war started in 1939 too). He recommends looking at it as two distinct mid-century wars, with numerous smaller conflicts.
One great war was the clash between Nazism and Soviet Stalinism. The conflict on the western front, and in Italy and North Africa were really only minor sub-conflicts. Virtually all the truly great battles (e.g. OPERATION Bagration) took place on the eastern plains – even D-Day was well down the list in terms of scale and importance. This was the war of 1939 to 1945, although arguably it started earlier (with the war between the Soviets and the nazi proxy of Finland), and only ended in 1989, with the collapse of the 1945 frontier (i.e. the Iron Curtain).
The second great war was the post colonial conflict for control of the Pacific between America and Japan, with America’s allies being very minor players. This had its core in 1941 -1945, but arguably (certainly from a Japanese perspective) started in the mid 1930’s as Japan expanded into Manchuria and China, became more global when America embargoed Japans oil, and effectively dribbled to an end in the late 1950’s when the European colonial powers finally stopped fighting for a share of Asia, abandoning Malaysia and Vietnam to the victorious Americans.
I’m not suggesting this is the only way of looking at it, but if you look at WWII in terms of manpower and resources, it is hard to dispute Norman Davies’s argument. Apart from being a more objectively correct description of what happened, it also frees us from propaganda and allows for a more clear headed analysis of what really happened, and what it means for us today.
Sorry Jeff for being OT. End
#9 by Jeff on October 20, 2011 - 11:26 am
Thanks for that Silve. Far too interesting and intellectual a post to trash, despite my (unheeded!) off-topic warnings. I must confess though that I’m just not that interested in WW2, apart from glib comments in blog posts of course 😉
But thanks for posting and I agree with your main point that the detail tells us more than the broad brush generalisations.
#10 by DougtheDug on October 20, 2011 - 1:59 pm
Sorry Jeff, I’ve got to reply to this one.
…the war between the Soviets and the nazi proxy of Finland
On the 23 August 1939 Russia and Germany signed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact dividing Eastern an Northern Europe between them. Russia got given Finland, Estonia, Latvia, half of Poland, and a large chunk of Romania. (Lithuania got swapped with Germany for cash later.)
On 21 September 1939 Russia and Germany signed a military co-ordination pact in the ruins of Poland after they each took half and held a joint military parade to celebrate.
Nine days later on the 30th of September 1939 the Russians launched an attack to conquer Finland and absorb it like Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. The Finns stopped them in their tracks and saved their country at a great cost to themselves and a loss of territory.
#11 by Craig Gallagher on October 20, 2011 - 6:58 pm
Ah yes, the Winter War. That one once won my table at the Liquid Ship pub quiz free beer for a month
#12 by Indy on October 20, 2011 - 8:57 am
This is where you have to take a deep breath and put the cynicism to one side and actually give the SNP credit for believing in democracy and all that kind of stuff.
You know I want independence and I am ready to put my life on hold over the next few years to play my part in getting it.
But the correct outcome of the referendum can only be what most Scottish people want and they have to be given the full range of choices.
Repeated opinion polls plus surveys like the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey etc show at present a majority – 60% plus – supporting Scotland basically becoming financially independent but remaining part of the UK and with Westminster retaining control of stuff like defence, foreign policy, the currency etc.
Now that’s not what I support and I believe that over the next few years we can persuade most of the people to cast their vote for full independence but it would not be right for us in the SNP to say we don’t want to test this other option because we don’t believe in it. It would be wrong to narrow the choices because we think that will give us the best chance of winning. That really would be rigging the referendum.
Of course there are big issues with Devo Max – primarily the fact that it would require Westminster to agree to it. Succcessive UK Governments have said that they will accept a Yes vote on independence but they have not said that they will accept whatever demands Scotland makes on increasing the scale of devolution. And the ramifications of that will have to be teased out and discussed as part of the debate – that’s one of the reasons I think we can persuade people to go for the Independence option.
My main concern at the moment is that the Labour leadership contenders seem to circling the wagons around the status quo (Scotland Bill) and ruling out any support for further devolution. Without political support for the third option of Devo Max it will be practically difficult for a three question referendum to succeed because who is going to campaign for it and make the case? There has been talk of reinstituting the Constitutional Convention etc but whatever route Devo Max supporters want to take, and I think it would have to be a cross-party one, they need to get a move on because even although the referendum is being held in the latter part of the Government’s term of office the campaign has already started.
#13 by Gryff on October 20, 2011 - 9:58 am
I am assuming the devo max option is a pragmatic one on several counts. Firstly there are those who think that a no vote in a yes no referendum would be a blow to scottish morale, I don’t knwo if that is true, but it would certainly be a hammer to SNP morale, devo max would still give both Scotland and the SNP the sense of moving forward.
Devo max is also closer to independence, so probably favoured by most SNP members to the status quo, on a more strategic basis it is also closer. a yes to devo max would probably allow the question of independence to be reopened in a few parliaments time, after devo max had settled in. A straight no would make another referendum on independence a political impossibility for many years to come, as well as hobbling the main party who might propose such a thing.
#14 by Doug Daniel on October 20, 2011 - 11:28 am
Indy’s got it down to a tee here. A responsible government offers the public a referendum with the choices that reflect public opinion. Anything else is a false choice.
By that token, Iain Gray, Tom Harris and everyone else who is trying to use this as a stick to beat the SNP with are just proving once again what poor politicians they are – if no one steps up to flesh out what the third option is, and opinion polls show it is still the favoured option of the majority when the referendum comes around, then the public have been failed.
It may prove to be unworkable and thus cannot be included in the referendum, but well done on the SNP for leaving the door open at the moment. The third option was initially just a sop to the Lib Dems to get their backing in the last session. The SNP don’t need to offer it any more.
#15 by Allan on October 20, 2011 - 6:49 pm
Spot on Indy…
I have said that the biggest hurdle to Independence is rebuting the argument that Scotland is some sort of subsidy junkie – with drip drip stories on a daily basis from the Anglocentric media (there are other issues but this is the main roadblock). Surely it makes sense for Fiscal Autonomy to arrive first to convince the majority that independence can be done.
Yes, Labour circling thew wagons around the status quo is a concern. It shows they haven’t learned from 2010 & 2011 yet.
#16 by GMcM on October 20, 2011 - 9:04 am
I think your analysis Jeff is pretty accurate. Salmond didn’t expect to be in THIS position (probably thought he would win in MAy but not like he did) and he now faces a dilemma over how to achieve his and the rest of the nationalists’ dream.
The only thing I have an issue with is the ‘calmly and diligently’ going about their business since May. The OBaFaTC (Sco) Bill is a clear example of rushing through poor legislation. What about the Supreme Court debacle also? The fact the numbers for the budget aren’t being released – doesn’t sound very diligent to me.
Of course I AM biased.
#17 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 20, 2011 - 1:41 pm
But the OBAFATC Bill hasn’t been rushed through, has it? It was calmly and diligently reconsidered in the face of opposition, although it COULD have been forced through regardless.
#18 by GMcM on October 20, 2011 - 3:21 pm
The re-timetabelling of the Bill has still resulted in a speedier passage through parliament than would otherwise be the case.
Also no changes have been made to it that would make it a better bill. They might as well have forced it through before the summer recess as all they have done is delay the introduction of a shoddy piece of legislation.
Let’s face it, Salmond delayed the Bill slightly so he could look like he was listening but, just like Lansley with his health reforms down south, he isn’t listening to the concerns that many people have with the Bill as it stands.
He allayed Bishop Tartaglia’s fears by promising something that he should have been delivering on already and promising to bring in Freedom of Speech to the Bill. He can’t do the second as we already have that right.
If it was moving through parliament as calmly as you suggest, why do SNP MSPs who are on the committee not even know what the Bill means in practice?
When the time comes I’m sure the Bill was pass through parliament with a ‘YES’ as the SNP MSPs do what they’re told ‘calmly and diligently’.
#19 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 20, 2011 - 6:47 pm
Heavens, everyone’s fairly buffing their crystal balls today. Until the bill is passed you have no more idea what it will contain than I do.
#20 by GMcM on October 21, 2011 - 9:50 am
There will be opportunities for amendments during stage 3; as of stage 2 there have been no significant changes that would improve the Bill whatsoever.
The whole point of the delay was to send it back to committee for a longer period of time, this would lead to further scrutiny that could give rise to improvements before returning for the final stage. What has happened is the SNP members on the committee have heard the concerns of many individuals and groups who would be affected by the legislation and they’ve not lisened to them. They’ve voted it through the committee stage because that’s what they were told to do – even though there are SNP MSPs who seem to be against it from what they’ve said. Either that or he doesn’t have a clue what the Bill means, proving he just did what he was told.
It is exactly like Lansley with the health Bill down south. Salmond is right and everyone else is wrong. Even the people who are experts on the issue.
#21 by DougtheDug on October 20, 2011 - 9:42 am
Salmond hasn’t actually said he’s going to put Devo-Max as an option on the ballot paper.
The big problem for Devo-Max is that the SNP don’t have the power to deliver it. If it’s chosen then it’s up to the whim of Westminster if they wish to implement all, some or none of it. Without a tight definition of what it actually means in terms of law-making powers, control of revenue and spending and executive power it will be nothing more than a wish-list submitted by the SNP.
Independence can be taken but Devo-Max is in the gift of Westminster.
If there is to be a Devo-Max option on the ballot paper then the unionist parties will have to both write it and agree to it before it can be put to the people of Scotland as an option. I’d agree with Alasdair on Salmond’s reasons for floating the idea.
Labour man Iain Smart on Labourhame had the problems with Devo-Max laid out pretty well despite coming at it from the other side of the political divide.
“Indeed, the more you consider it, the more you see the difficulty in putting two different, and ultimately inconsistent, propositions on the same ballot paper. But that’s not the only problem. It’s difficult to see who is going to frame the non-independence option. Presumably, the SNP Government, even though it’s not their desired outcome. The problem with this is that any settlement short of full independence is not a matter for the Scottish people alone. So what happens, in advance of a referendum, if the rest of the UK says that what the SNP want (as their fall back position) is not on offer? That it’s independence or bust. What’s the point of then asking the “other” question? The question becomes redundant whether or not the full independence question is won or lost. If the referendum produces a yes vote to independence the “other” question is redundant per se and if the Scots have rejected the nuclear option of “full” independence then why should the rest of the UK make any further constitutional concessions in the aftermath of that? After all, the SNP could hardly hold another referendum but this time with a single question. That would be silly.”
#22 by Jeff on October 20, 2011 - 9:54 am
Two things I’d say to that:
(1) With a majority and sympathetic PO in place, it seems unlikely that Salmond would offer Devo Max as an option in the referendum and then go back on that offer. He must have thought long and hard about this ploy and, now that he has made it, it is surely for the long term.
(2) The Scottish Government doesn’t have the power to implement the result of the referendum but it is utterly unthinkable for the UK Government not to. What Scotland wants, Scotland will get.
#23 by DougtheDug on October 20, 2011 - 10:10 am
Salmond has offered to put Devo-Max on the ballot paper. It’s now up to the unionist parties to define and agree to that option. If they don’t then it can’t go on the paper and Salmond comes out smelling of roses.
Unless that unionist agreement is in place beforehand then there cannot be a Devo-Max option on the ballot paper.
The scenario where the SNP writes that Devo-Max option in the hope that Westminster will agree to hand over all oil revenues, VAT, the Crown estates, legislative power on pretty much everything and control of all taxes including income tax and corporation tax is one out of Alice in Wonderland and Salmond may be playing a game of brinkmanship with the Devo-Max option but he’s not stupid.
Ian Smart has it right, “The problem with this is that any settlement short of full independence is not a matter for the Scottish people alone.”.
#24 by Alasdair Stirling on October 20, 2011 - 10:04 am
Devolution Max is a Trojan Horse policy. It will require a complete restructuring of the UK constitution over which the English majority will have the dominant and final say. So much so, that it is quite possible that they may outright reject the notion completely or, more likely, redesign the UK constitution as they wish. Either way, the idea that a Scottish minority will force UK constitutional change on the English majority and simultaneously own or dictate the character of that change is most likely a non-starter. In essence the SNP can safely offer Devolution Max as a referendum option because it is a ‘time travel’ policy (theoretically possible but impossible in the real world).
#25 by Jeff on October 20, 2011 - 11:22 am
I genuinely wasn’t aware that the UK even has a Constitution Alasdair.
Obviously I’m not a legal person so can’t really say if what you suggest stacks up but I do believe in where there’s a will there’s a way and if Scotland decides definitively in favour of Devo Max (or independence), the UK Government will have no realistic option but to deliver it, irrespective of the size of the English population.
So I’m afraid I don’t agree with your ‘time travel’ policy theory, (though do find it interesting!)
#26 by James on October 20, 2011 - 11:47 am
We have an uncodified, not an unwritten, constitution. The Scotland Act is a constitutional document, so to the Parliament Acts of 1911 & 1949, conventions are constitutional, even Bagehot himself is part of the constitution.
#27 by Alasdair Stirling on October 20, 2011 - 12:06 pm
Some would even argue that the Treaty of Union (founding authority for the UL parliament) is itself a written constitution.
#28 by Alasdair Stirling on October 20, 2011 - 12:04 pm
I agree that ‘where there is a will there would be a way’, my point is that it will be an English will with only slight consideration for the views and desires of the UK’s Scottish minority. The good people of England have long suffered our constitutional questioning and been very flexible in their accommodating us; but I seriously doubt that they will stand idly by and allow us to redefine their constitution and form of governance without reference to their wishes and requirements. I speculate, but it is perhaps telling that recent polling shows the English people increasingly willing to wave us a cheery goodbye rather than accommodate our increasing demands for the repatriation of political decision making to Edinburgh.
As regards the existence of UK constitution, it is a big and interesting subject which I will address another day, however the key issue is that whether written or informal the current arrangements for the governance of England/UK would not, nay, could not survive Devolution Max. One doesn’t have to speculate too much to see the difficulties. Would the 59/52 Scottish MPs continue to sit and legislate in Westminster when it has become for all intents and purposes the parliament of England? If the Scots MPs leave how do the Scots have a say in the residual UK matters. Even supposing that the House of Lords can convert into some sort of Home Nations chamber, the changes to the constitutional are enormous and will require the support and agreement of the English majority.
#29 by Jeff on October 20, 2011 - 12:13 pm
I’m afraid I still don’t see where the difficulty lies. If Scotland votes definitively for Devo Max, what right do England have to say no?
I don’t think you’re giving the UK citizens enough credit in that each individual nation would respect another nation’s decision to raise and spend its own revenue if it so chose. Indeed, in light of the misguided notion that Scotland is leeching off the rest of the UK (demonstrably untrue) then I suspect England would offer up scant resistance. There would of course be some negotiation over what Devo Max would mean financially. How much of the UK’s oil revenues is Scottish, for example?
My overriding point though is that English respect for Scotland doing whatever it wants to do will trump any English will to keep the status quo.
#30 by Alasdair Stirling on October 20, 2011 - 12:54 pm
The Treaty of Union 1707 (that one way or another gave rise to the UK) is nothing more than a legal agreement and (absent a right for unilateral variation within its terms – which there is not) to vary the terms of the agreement requires the assent and concurrence of both parties.
Devolution 1998 did not so much change the UK’s constitutional arrangements, more accurately it repatriated a number of existing variations to the 1707 settlement. Over the 100 or so years before 1998 there had grown up a sort of ‘pocket’ Scottish government within the UK political structure. The Scottish Secretary was the ‘pocket PM’, the Scottish Office the ‘pocket government’ and the Scottish Grand Committee the ‘pocket parliament’. The English MPs were content to allow this development, partly to placate Scottish demand but more importantly because they are disinterested in matters Scottish. The key point is that the changes didn’t affect the governance of England.
As to whether the English representative will respect the views of the Scots – I think that it is the duty of English MPs to promote the interests of those that they represented and if that be the case respect for the views of the Scots will not much come into their consideration.
#31 by Martinb on October 21, 2011 - 5:58 pm
“to vary the terms of the agreement requires the assent and concurrence of both parties.”
There are a couple of problems with this:
1) By the terms of that agreement, the parties don’t exist any more. While it acts as if it were, Westminster is *not* the antecedent English parliament. Whether Holyrood is the successor to the adjourned 1707 Scottish Parliament is arguable.
2) Surely the agreement requires the sustained assent and concurrence of both parties to continue?
#32 by DougtheDug on October 20, 2011 - 1:13 pm
I’m afraid I still don’t see where the difficulty lies. If Scotland votes definitively for Devo Max, what right do England have to say no?
It’s the UK Government not England and they have every right to say no. If the Devo-Max option wins then a region within the UK has said we want more regional power but it’s up to the UK Government to decide whether these demands are reasonable within the context of the UK and whether they will have an adverse impact on the rest of the UK if they are granted.
If Scotland votes for independence it has a right to take it. Simply saying that they would like a more powerful regional government is not binding on anyone, especially a government which is instinctively against more powers for Scotland.
#33 by Doug Daniel on October 20, 2011 - 1:33 pm
There’s going to be all sorts of problems related to implementing devo max that it may end up being unworkable in practice. The treasury’s IT system is going to have to be completely rewritten – it’s barely fit for purpose now, as we can see by it not being able to calculate people’s taxes properly, so it’s unlikely they can just accommodate the changes devo max will require by running a simple DELETE * FROM UKTaxPayers WHERE Region=’North Britain’ query on the database. Who will pay for those changes? Well, we already know the answer from the SVR debacle – Scotland. The same will be true of their benefits and pensions systems. They’ll all have to be rewritten using Scottish money – on top of the cost of Scotland implementing its own systems. Another “union dividend”.
Aidan often speaks of independence being a “complicated and costly process”, but it’ll look like clicking your fingers compared to implementing devo max. This is why it’s pretty rich of Michael Moore to demand details of independence when his party is likely to be the only one supporting devo max (unless they’ve changed their established position… again).
#34 by Stuart on October 20, 2011 - 10:12 am
There’s been a fair old debate on here about what independence means, and the Devo Max has it own uncertainities, more so than independence.
For example, are we to have the same powers as say Quebec in relation to Canada, or Greenland and Faroes in relation to Denmark, or the Isle of Man in relation to the UK?
Who decides what Devo Max will be? Again it comes down to how the Scottish Government treat the issue, engage with civic Scotland and make sure that consensus is found, so people understand what it is they are voting for. When compared to independence, Devo Max is much harder to define.
#35 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 10:14 am
The logic of your argument is entirely sound, but as an additional thread in a strategy to win a referendum, and an insurance policy against losing it, offering the third option is difficult to resist I’d say.
In relation to the campaign it provides an opportunity to use the old ‘divide and conquer’ technique.
As an insurance policy:
If we vote yes to devo-max, but no to independence, and westminster refuses to deliver, westminster will have killed it as an option ‘for a generation’. In such a scenario I’d imagine that there would probably be enough anger in the general population that another stab at the independence question would be welcomed. Based on experience of westminster I don’t expect them to say ‘no’ straight off, at worst I’d expect them to say ‘maybe’ then to drag out consultation processes and their ‘consideration’, for several years, allowing it to die gradually. Scots are entirely wise to this overused manouvre though, so based on the recent demographic trends I’d expect this tactic to result in full independence within a couple of decades.
If we vote yes to devo-max, but no to independence, and westminster actually delivers devo-max, then to my mind 95% of the job would be done. The arguments over financial viability (and subsidies) would be gone forever, one way or the other, and would be replaced with a very clear indicator of the cost of union in the form of an annual payment from Holyrood to Westminster. The vast majority of the civil service would have been separated out by the end of the devo-max process. In practical terms we’d be ‘independence-ready’ – a comparatively tiny proportion of the work required to become fully independent would be left to do. Arguably, devo-max is very close to what you’d imagine as the logical pre-independence transitional setup, and even if we vote yes to independence I imagine we’ll see a temporary devo-max delivered as a part of the process. Scotland already seems quite different from rUK after only one decade of comparatively minimal devolution – imagine how much more foreign Scotland and rUK would feel from each other after a decade of devo-max. Most importantly, devo-max, even as an interim step, is so close to full independence that it would give the SNP it’s opportunity to prove the point that it can do a better job of running the show, a consolation prize that it almost as good as a win.
#36 by JPJ2 on October 20, 2011 - 11:02 am
ReasonableNat. I agree with your analysis.
The further point I would make is that the main areas of control which a majority of the Scots electorate virtually always wish to leave with Westminster are foreign affairs and defence.
However if Scotland is already in a devolution-max situation it will not take long for the Scots to decide that makes no sense e.g. control of defence is required to stop Trident renewal/ remove nuclear weapons from Scotland; control of foreign affairs is required to prevent involvement in another Iraq.
So we continue to speed along Tam Dalyell’s motorway to independence with no exits 🙂
#37 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 12:44 pm
Absolutely yes. I’m betting that our payments up to westminster, particularly for defence and foreign relations, are going to look pretty expensive. If there are any unpopular decisions, and there will be some sooner or later, we’ll potentially be seeing ourselves paying over the odds for stuff that we don’t event want to do.
The single most powerful unionist argument against independence is financial risk – devo-max has the potential to almost completely kill that argument; for balance I have to concede that it could also win the argument for the unionists – if it proves that Scotland does need union subsidy to survive. Frankly, that’s a risk I’m prepared to take, though the prospect of post devo-max labour (Scottish) government does worry me a little 😉
What is left of the union, post devo-max, is relatively easy to untangle, compared with untangling required for devo-max. Only a minority would worry that we would be unable to defend ourselves, and I imagine that only the tiniest of minorities would beleive that we would be incapable of dealing with foreign relations ourselves. I’d see currency as the only remaining significant battle between the nats and the unionists.
#38 by Barbarian on October 20, 2011 - 10:36 am
I think the SNP are correct in looking at alternatives. They have to.
The election in May was fundamentally different to what a referendum will entail. That was to elect the Scottish Government – independence barely got a mention, because the SNP are still cautious. They had to show the electorate they were not a one trick pony, a problem that still haunts the Greens.
But one thing must be in the minds of the SNP leadership – why did they not have a referendum before the end of the year? OK, it’s easy with hindsight but given the result in May, the level of support might be sufficient to carry it, especially with the othe parties in disarray.
The longer the wait, the greater the risk of something going wrong.
#39 by Angus McLellan on October 20, 2011 - 11:58 am
The enthusiasm for Devomax is baffling.
Defence and foreign aren’t policy areas that Westminster has displayed great skill in managing. So why is there such enthusiasm for leaving them under Westminster control?
Spending by the MoD, DfID and FCO comes to around £50 billion a year. Pro-rata that would be around £4 billion as Scotland’s share, which is about equal to the combined 2011-12 Education, Justice and Rural Affairs & Environment budgets. A very large amount of money then.
Like I said, very strange.
#40 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 12:54 pm
I think one hope, from my perspective, has to be that as we approach the referendum, the public realises that evo-max/FFA are so close to independence, that there is little to be gained (and on balance more to be lost) by clinging on to an insubstantial union.
#41 by Ken on October 20, 2011 - 2:48 pm
“The enthusiasm for Devomax is baffling.”
Well, outright independence has what, 39% support? I can kind of see why a third ‘mid way’ option would be preferred by the SNP right now!
As for defence and foreign policy, an independent Scotland xould make a better go at developing their own limited – reach foreign policy. I guess they’d still have to figure out how much it would cost to establish a world class foreign service, cost of purchasing new embassies globally, training staff, maintaining secondary missions etc. You’d be surprised at how much an effective foreign service costs.
#42 by Angus McLellan on October 20, 2011 - 6:14 pm
It’s the public enthusiasm that’s baffling me. I can only think that people have no idea how profligate Westminster is in these areas.
I don’t know about a “world class foreign service” but running an Irish-class foreign service and DfID was budgeted at about €750 million for the two and an Irish-class defence service about €950 million. At around €1.7 billion that’s a trifling £2.5 billion per annum less than the “Scottish” budget for these things, whether now or under Devomax.
Now an independent Scotland might not have Irish-class foreign, foreign aid or defence services, so the £2.5 billion number can only be treated as a for-instance. And as you say, there would be start up costs although these shouldn’t be exagerrated. The capital assets of the Irish Dept of Foreign Affairs are only valued at around €170 million for example. For Denmark with 78 embassies to Ireland’s 58, or for Norway with 88 the numbers would presumably be larger. Still a drop in a bucket though.
#43 by Ken on October 20, 2011 - 8:54 pm
“I don’t know about a “world class foreign service†but running an Irish-class foreign service and DfID was budgeted at about €750 million for the two and an Irish-class defence service about €950 million.”
I’d hope Scotland or at least Alex S would want to be aiming higher than the reach DFA manages! The budget cuts and moratorium on staff hiring for the past 4ish years have forced multiple desks to merge and I know for other regions they almost wholly depend on aid agencies for intel and input on the ground as the DFA don’t have the staff or resources for quite a large geographical area. It all depends on what the Scottish foreign policy is supposed to be: limited like other small countries, or a bit more projected like I get the impression it’s wanted. The Irish capital assets are small but I think they’ve an agreement with London to ‘double up’ missions abroad – reciprocate for citizens of each state needing help. I imagine to cut costs more effectively, the Scots would want the same. Anywho…
Similarly, I’d imagine the proposed Scottish defence policy (though I hold my hands up in ignorance here) is aimed at being more than simple peacekeepers, given the more militaristic tradition of Scotland. But hey, in both cases if anyone can point me in the direction of their plans I’d love to see them.
#44 by Angus McLellan on October 21, 2011 - 2:24 am
It’s not just London and Dublin that share representation. If I ever happen to find myself in Bishkek and need help from the embassy it’ll have to be the German one as there’s no UK embassy in Kyrgyzstan. And so on.
It seems like the SNP defence policy piece has disappeared recently. The Google search cache is taking me to a story about Roseanna Cunningham and customs dogs. Very strange.
All is not lost. Peter Curran did a blog post on the old SNP statement here earlier this month. You should be able to get the gist from that. The SDA too have updated their defence piece lately. It’s available from here.
#45 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 10:16 pm
Neither should it be forgotten that we already own a share of UK international assets, including embassies…
#46 by Doug Daniel on October 21, 2011 - 11:04 am
Exactly. When people talk about divvying things up during independence negotiations, they tend to focus on the negatives (gosh, I can’t think why…), like how much of the bank debt is ours. But we will also get things like embassies, or be compensated for our share in them.
The thing is, Scotland won’t need as big a Foreign Office as the UK. Bear in mind that the real name of the Foreign Office is the Foreign & Commonwealth Office, because the UK still has fingers in many post-colonial pies. Does Scotland really need to set up embassies in places like Antigua and Barbados? Would we really need five diplomatic missions in Australia, or would we be able to get by on one, like other nations our size?
In all honesty, I’m not so sure people would even care how many embassies we actually had, certainly not when we start out. The problem is that the UK’s approach to foreign affairs and defence is all most of us know. But it has to be kept in mind that the UK (or it’s establishment at least) has never fully taken on board the fact that we’re no longer masters of the British Empire. The reason for the UK foreign office and MOD being so large is that they are still trying to run the world and prove they’re still one of the big boys. Scotland would have no need for such macho nonsense. We’d be quite happy just keeping good diplomatic relations with other countries, and not trying to stick our beaks in all the time, trying to influence what other nations do in order to look after British interests.
#47 by Ken on October 21, 2011 - 11:25 am
“But we will also get things like embassies, or be compensated for our share in them”.
Do you? I haven’t seen anything written down about it – it would be nice to be pointed in a direction that answers what Scottish foreign policy and action would be. Without it I wouldn’t just assume it gets a share – it might, it might not. Other precedents have shown the need for a written agreement for divvying up assests and debts (see South Sudan in 2011). But I’m open to being convinced.
“Would we really need five diplomatic missions in Australia, or would we be able to get by on one, like other nations our size?”
Ireland has 3 in Australia and 5 in Canada, and 2 in Brazil. I’m sure Scotland would want to follow the same path.
“In all honesty, I’m not so sure people would even care how many embassies we actually had, certainly not when we start out.”
I disagree. I think little things like this that go unanswered and rumble on paint a bad bigger picture, like no one has bothered looking in to it. I’m sure that’s not the case, it just looks like it a bit.
@Angus McLellan – that’s true, and I’m sure Scotland will do much the same. Thanks for the defence links. They’re… intriguing.
#48 by Doug Daniel on October 21, 2011 - 1:52 pm
Oh come on, of course stuff will be divvied up. Westminster can’t shift debt from the bank bailouts onto us without also giving us our fair share of assets. Why do people think every little thing needs to be put in written agreements to make it true?
There are an awful lot of “little things” which unionists bring up that apparently need sorting out, but really they’re just trying to put up distractions. Things like “will we need a passport to cross the border?” which are blatantly ridiculous, and other things like “will we need to reapply to join the EU?” where people have actually answered the question, but people choose to ignore it. I mention that one as it was brought up on QT last night, and Mike Russell said what the EU policy on successor states was, and yet Curran and Carmichael (as well as several shaky head audience members) just chose not to believe him.
The thing is, when people say that stuff needs to be written down to assure people it is true, they’re generally not really looking for reassurance – they’re looking for obstructions. You say you’re open to convincing, Ken, but it seems more like you’re asking to be proven wrong, with a “ha! I knew you couldn’t prove it” response waiting to come out. As soon as the burden of proof is met, you’ll have another “unanswered question”, and another, and another.
Of course I could be wrong and foreign affairs just happens to be something you worry about on a daily basis. If so, then rest assured that Scotland will not go into independence negotiations without a solid plan in place for making sure we get what we’re owed. Not with the SNP as the negotiators, anyway.
#49 by Angus McLellan on October 21, 2011 - 5:22 pm
This is what is generally assumed. And if liabilities are to be apportioned then assets must be too. But is it in fact inevitable that liabilities would be divided?
It’s true that the Czechs and Slovaks divided up assets and liabilities, but the world and its dog agree that this created two new countries where previously there had been only one. That’s not what fUK’s establishment will want as it implies no UN Security Council seat, no recognition of nuclear power status and the need to renegotiate EU membership.
Other cases of divorce or fission would lead to other conclusions. For example, the Russian Federation was accepted as the fUSSR successor state in terms of nuclear weapons and the Security Council. But there are a couple of points about that that deserve scrutiny. Firstly, Russia undertook to repatriate ex-Soviet nuclear weapons. Secondly, not only did Russia assume the fUSSR’s treaty obligations in full, it also assumed the fUSSR’s debts in full.
So, if fUK wants to be automatically accepted as the UK’s successor state, there is precedent that Westminster should in that event assume all UK debts and retain ownership in all UK nuclear weapon assets, with a view to their repatriation, as well all retaining all non-nuclear weapon assets located furth of Scotland. Is this equitable? Not according to me, but plainly the matter isn’t quite as simple as all that.
#50 by Topher Dawson on October 20, 2011 - 12:41 pm
I agree with Jeff that if the electorate are given three choices the middle one is likely to be chosen. This gives the SNP the chance to make Devo Max into fiscal autonomy which as ReasonableNat points out is 95% of independence and a very useful precursor to independence.
It will allow the “too poor” argument to be put to bed and perhaps build up peoples’ confidence to defeat the “too small” and “too feart” arguments later. Gradual progress has been working for us and I do not want to scare the electorate with a yes-no referendum they might balk at. I think the electorate are canny and prudent, but in a serious economic downturn may balk at the perceived risks of independence.
It didn’t occur to me that Devo Max may have no advocates. Even if it does not, it may attract the greatest vote because it is in the middle. If Westminster then kicks it into the long grass they may live to regret that. As Jeff says, if the Scottish electorate wants something and then is thwarted, independence will only look more attractive.
#51 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 1:24 pm
“If Westminster then kicks it into the long grass they may live to regret that. As Jeff says, if the Scottish electorate wants something and then is thwarted, independence will only look more attractive.”
If devo-max is taken off the table it is inevitable that some supporters will move to independence and some back to the status quo. Of course, no-can predict how the split actually go, but the strong overlap between devo-max and independence bodes well for nats in a theoretical second referendum.
#52 by Doug Daniel on October 20, 2011 - 1:35 pm
Many who currently support devo max are probably far more open to independence than they once were. If/when it comes off the table, they may think “well, it’s not THAT much of a leap…”
#53 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 2:12 pm
I agree, I think that’s very likely, and that there are likely to be large enough numbers to tip the balance, all the more so when it is westminster saying no.
#54 by Doug Daniel on October 20, 2011 - 1:05 pm
As others have pointed out, Salmond has not actually said devo max/FFA/whatever will be on the referendum. He’s merely saying the door is open to it being an option on the referendum. That’s a long way from the sort of nonsense Tom Harris and his ilk have been spouting recently.
#55 by Jim Hutton on October 20, 2011 - 1:27 pm
The SNP should not under any circumstances put Devo-Max on the ballot unless it has been defined and agreed by all rUK parties. My view on the current financial crisis is that the UK has mortgaged North Sea Oil to the hilt and are not in any position to offer any tax powers which includes this resource. Devo-Max should be resisted with FFA as the only alternative on offer.
#56 by Tormod on October 20, 2011 - 3:39 pm
It’s very interesting, basically leaving the option of a second question about FFA / Devo max etc open to the other parties.
Currently they are all puking on this option.
So what does Alex Salmond say to those Scots who support FFA.
I supported your right to be asked FFA the others failed you, you therefore have two options status quo or independence. What option is the closet to your prefered choice.
Time is running out for FFA/DM the likes of Henry McLeish and Malcolm chisolm can see this.
#57 by Doug Daniel on October 20, 2011 - 5:14 pm
Alex Salmond is as canny as they come. After the result in May, I think he’s pretty much earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt any time people think he may have made a boo-boo.
#58 by Barbarian on October 20, 2011 - 4:56 pm
If the SNP are not going to have a third option, then the wording for the referendum have to be absolutely crystal clear. By that I mean plain English, as in “Do you wish Scotland to be independent?”.
No phrases such as “self-determination”. Not everyone has a good command of the English language. It is such a fundamental issue it must be clear.
If there is the slightest confusion, then you can guarantee that the lawyers will be out in force arguing that the referendum was rigged.
Return to the pyschology of independence. That will have a major impact on voters preferences. If they are unsure, then they will most likely vote for the status quo. The third option gives the SNP a safety net. If the voters go for the third option it would be another step towards independence, and give justification for another referendum during the following parliamentary session.
A straight no will kill off independence for many years.
#59 by Brian Nicholson on October 20, 2011 - 8:10 pm
The strategy here is obvious, and that is why the unionists are flailing. They know that the SNP is going to publish a white paper outlining how DEVO MAX is going to work, and then they are going to demand Westminster pass legislation agreeing to the terms, subject to a YES vote in the referendum.
Westminster is left with two options, agree to the demands and virtually guarantee that the YES side will win on that question OR disagree and watch the SNP withdraw the DEVO MAX option from the referendum, blaming Westminster for the failure.
I think that disagreement is more likely as the unionists will never be able to muster the votes to pass the legislation.
This leaves the SNP with the simple YES or NO independence question on the ballot and with an angry Scottish electorate having been told by Westminster that DEVO MAX ( the preferred option of the largest numbers of voters) is not an option.
This will drive the necessary votes to the YES side and INDEPENDENCE will result.
Unionists are caught between two unpalatable options and no longer control the agenda. This is why you see some arguing for Westminster to set the rules and questions because they can see the future if they do not.
#60 by ReasonableNat on October 20, 2011 - 10:17 pm
Checkmate 🙂
#61 by Observer on October 20, 2011 - 8:51 pm
I think the reason why FFA needs to be put on the ballot paper is because all the indicators are that it’s the most popular position with voters. That may not please some in the SNP, but I would be quite happy with it as a staging post, which is what I am convinced it would be.
David Cameron is on record as saying way back in 2005 that he would be prepared to look at FFA for Scotland. It makes sense from his point of view, it takes away complaints about the Barnet formula, & it would surely go a long way to sorting out the West Lothian question as well.
It is true that the inclusion of FFA on the ballot paper could be scuppered if a) Labour don’t support/propose it (the SNP can’t argue for independence & FFA, FFA needs campaigners to argue its case, that has got to be Labour), or if Westminster refuse to entertain it, for some reason I can’t fathom.
If that’s the case then the Scottish electorate will be more inclined to vote yes to independence, because they will be very frustrated with what is their apparent will being ignored, by everyone other than the SNP.
#62 by Richard on October 20, 2011 - 10:30 pm
I think that in a straight yes/no question, any people who were keen for more powers, but still swithering on full independence, would be more likely to play it safe and opt for the safe option and the devil they know. Therefore, a third option would be more likely to split the “no” vote than the “yes” vote.
#63 by ReasonableNat on October 21, 2011 - 10:04 am
For what it is worth, I think you are right in guessing that most will fall back to the status quo position, but it is inevitable that *some* will switch to independence, and with the polls already level, even if that only represents an extra couple of percent (of the whole population) it might be enough to seal the deal.
#64 by Ian Smart on October 20, 2011 - 10:46 pm
I appreciate the considered tone of (most of) the comments above and will accordingly try to respond in a similar spirit from a Labour Perspective.
I agree entirely with what many say above; that many versions of Devo Max amount to 95% of what Nationalists want. That’s why Labour won’t ever put such a proposal forward. We are not Nationalists. (Since I am on a Nationalist website can I concede that not all Labour voters are opposed to Independence, subject to noting that even a third of those who voted SNP in May don’t actually support Independence). In any event, for this purpose, those who matter are not Labour voters but Labour Members.
i was a member of the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly; a founder member of Scottish Labour Action; and in in 1997 I was denied the chance to stand in the General Election after I answered the question as to what I would do if asked to choose between the interests of Scotland and the interests of the Labour Party in a way unacceptable to the National Executive Committee.
If somebody like me is not going to advocate Devo Max then believe me there is no prospect, none whatsoever, of it becoming Labour Party policy.
So the question might appear to be who frames the second question but actually it’s not. For it to be on the ballot paper it would in reality have to be acceptable to the Scottish Government. It is, after all, their Referendum. If Labour sticks by Calman but the Scottish Government rejects the Scotland Bill, nobody seriously thinks that will ever appear as a referendum question in any referendum organised by this Government at least. No Government gives people an option with which they themselves are unhappy. That’s why the Tories will never have a referendum on outright withdrawal from the EU. Its also why, no matter how many questions there are in the Scottish Referendum, outright abolition of the Scottish Parliament will not be among them. Quite right too.
So in the end the Government will set the second question. If it is drafted by anybody else it will only appear on the ballot paper if the Scottish Government have approved it. So thanks but no thanks.
The single most important problem with a second question is however your problem as well. You cannot have a unilateral declaration of devolution. If we could then, believe me, we’d all have been on the same side in the 1980s. The only way to achieve greater devolution is by negotiation. Our hand can be strengthened by the implied threat of Independence but if the people have voted No to Independence in the same referendum in which they have voted Yes to more devolution then what kind of negotiating position are you (we) left in then?
There is however one more obvious point I have to make. This is a good as it gets for the SNP. You are led by the outstanding politician in Scottish politics; your front bench has at least half a dozen other politicians of the first rank; you’ve just won by a landslide; The Labour Party is in utter disarray; the Tories are in power at Westminster; the Libs are completely discredited by their Tory Alliance; the British economy is flatlining; you haven’t yet had to take any of the inevitable decisions which face and then alienate every government from some of its supporters; they’ve even just found some more oil.
Yet, even now, you are not proposing to have an independence referendum and indeed are panicked that the British Government might call one. (C’mon, if it was the mistake you assert, you’d be drawing them onto the punch.)
Because, let’s be honest, you’d get beat in any Independence referendum held in even these most favourable of circumstances. And in doing so you’d let us back in; you’d divide yourselves and you’d set back for decades not just Independence but any prospect of increased powers within the devolved settlement.
I appreciate not all your ground troops think that but on this you should trust your Leader. He’ll have seen the private polling and focus groups, as I once saw ours. The minute the issues of public sector pensions; security of state benefits; future MoD jobs, currency or even (ironically) the benefits of devolved achievements like free personal care or tuition fees are raised, support for independence disappears like snow off a dyke.
You might protest that you’ll persuade people none of these are at risk. Mibbee you will but in a clash of this nature the gloves would undoubtedly be off. And their would be no differential turnout. And the opposition somewhat more formidable than Iain Gray.
Now if you want to come to us, seek to agree an improved scheme and then put that in a Referendum (with a second referendum on Independence if Westminster doesn’t respond) then we’d be happy to talk.
But you won’t do that because you don’t have to. I agree. You won the Election. And, to be fair, we’d probably vote No in the second vote anyway.
But you won’t, above all, because you believe in Independence, nothing less. Fair enough, but stop deluding yourselves that we’re ever going to consciously assist you in that process and concede we will always have to agree to disagree.
#65 by DougtheDug on October 20, 2011 - 11:36 pm
Ian, I agree with you that the Scottish Government would have to approve of the second question but so would all the unionist parties, the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib-Dems because as you say you can’t have a unilateral declaration of devolution. If Labour will never agree to Devo-Max then it’s going to be independence or status quo on the ballot paper but for those who want Devo-Max it will be the Labour party who have failed them not the SNP.
If the failure of the referendum has always been guaranteed it raises the question of why the unionist parties have been against holding one. Before the SNP victory in 2011 which gave the SNP the majority they needed to hold a referendum without any support from the other parties in Holyrood the unionist parties had always refused to have one. Now the unionist parties want one right now even though the SNP are riding higher than they were in 2007. In the light of that I’d say Alex Salmond has the timing right.
I’d worry about a more formidable opposition if there was someone who was head and shoulders above Iain Gray but since none of the party leaders, Ed Milliband, David Cameron or Nick Clegg or any of their lieutenants fit that category it isn’t one of my major worries.
Talking to Labour about an improved devolution scheme is an interesting idea but since the last Labour attempt at “improving” devolution under Calman simply involved running part of the Barnett Formula through HMRC before giving it to Scotland the track record is not great.
“Fair enough, but stop deluding yourselves that we’re ever going to consciously assist you in that process and concede we will always have to agree to disagree.”
That’s something that’s always puzzled me Ian. Why is the Labour party so against Scottish independence? Once the Westminster government sent tanks into Glasgow in fear of a revolution and now the Labour party has become its greatest cheerleader. When did Labour become the defender of the British Establishment and the British state in Scotland to the point it prefers Conservative rule from Westminster to Scottish independence?
#66 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 21, 2011 - 7:40 am
Firstly, Ian, a quick question – given your professed personal beliefs, WHY aren’t you advocating devo max?
But secondly, I’m afraid Alex Salmond is outplaying you all yet again. The SNP isn’t “panicked” about a UK-run referendum. It’s a dream scenario, a trap which Salmond is giving the UK government lots of time to lose its nerve and fall into.
A UK-run referendum, firstly, will enrage The Scottish electorate. They gave the SNP an overwhelming mandate to hold a referendum in the second half of the Parliament, and Mummy Westminster riding roughshod over that would be suicidal.
A UK-run referendum would also not include a devo-max option. How could it, when the UK government has set its stall so firmly behind the worthless petty tinkering of the Scotland Bill?
If you’re looking for conditions in which the SNP could secure a Yes vote for full independence, a Tory-imposed referendum without the option most Scots favour as a choice is about as perfect a situation as you could hope for.
Your arrogant assertion that a straight independence vote will definitely be defeated is somewhat astonishing from an intelligent man like yourself. It’s pretty close already, and four years is a long time in politics. Under a Tory-led coalition imposing vicious austerity cuts for the benefit of bankers and the wealthy, it’s an eternity.
The Unionists are ensnared in the teeth of a horrible dilemma. Brian Nicholson’s post above superbly encapsulates the problems if they want a devo-max option, an issue which makes things especially hard for Labour. The coalition, meanwhile, has to choose between trampling all over the Scottish Parliament and electorate as described above (madness) or waiting until Scotland has suffered under their rule for four more years, each passing day of which will make independence look more attractive.
But by all means stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and pretend none of this is happening. Labour’s adoption of that policy has served we nationalists well in the last decade, and will continue to do so between now and 2015. Salmond has his opponents precisely where he wants them.
#67 by James on October 21, 2011 - 10:18 am
Ian, thoughtful comment to say the least, but one minor factual one: you’re not on a nationalist website. As one of the editors, I’m definitely no nationalist, although I favour independence.
#68 by Jeff on October 21, 2011 - 10:51 am
I agree with James.
Ed – We need new unionist editors.
#69 by BaffieBox on October 21, 2011 - 12:30 pm
A thought-provoking post Ian! Thanks! But I have to take exception to the following.
Having the benefit of private polling and focus groups which some of us may not have had, you may be able to indicate exactly why these policy areas will undermine the campaign for Independence? Its not entirely clear to me why that would be.
If I make the assumption that you are correct, I can only guess that Independence would be undermined because you believe that Scotland cannot afford to run its own affairs in these areas, or Scotland does not want the burden of such responsibility. I can think of no other reason why Unionists consider these particular policies to be toxic to the Scottish electorate. Not clarifying why you believe this to be true suggests you do not want to openly admit this is the case, or alternatively, that the mere mention of these policy areas have, in the past, quite subtly and effectively tempered the ambition of Scots who demonstrated a willingness to accept the challenge of Independence.
And herein lies the problem. This is no longer the case. Scotland is not being tempered by the notion of managing pensions, state security, a MoD, a benefit system, etc, etc. What is unique about Scotland that we could not or should not consider ourselves capable of addressing these policies as we do law, education, the NHS? When these demons are raised to keep us in line, we now face them and ask why? Show us the detail.
And ultimately, everyone surely acknowledges that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that uniquely prevents Scotland from managing these powers – which makes it just like any other nation on this earth. And as such, aren’t you behind the game if this is your hopes of defending the union?
#70 by Ian Smart on October 21, 2011 - 1:53 pm
I appreciate the case you make even if I don’t entirely agree. The point is however that the vast majority of the public don’t have strong political views. They vote in what is perceived to be their own interest; for long term supporters strategic interest; for floaters, short term interest.
No group of electors likes uncertainty. For all the problems of the British State, pensions are secured, benefits are paid, MoD jobs actually exist; we know what the currency is (and our savings therefor secure); and WE HAVE free personal care and higher education. Now, you say none of that is at risk but the pro union camp doesn’t even have to prove the contrary, it just needs to create uncertainty.
Revolutions don’t occur because something else might be better; they occur because (it is believed) nothing else could possibly be worse than the status quo. There may be some who genuinely believe that about the current Scottish situation but they are never a majority of the electorate. They’re not even a majority in the SNP.
#71 by BaffieBox on October 21, 2011 - 2:53 pm
Fair enough Ian. I appreciate your input in the debate. We’ll agree to disagree… for now. 🙂
#72 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 21, 2011 - 5:00 pm
“Now, you say none of that is at risk but the pro union camp doesn’t even have to prove the contrary, it just needs to create uncertainty.”
And there it is in a nutshell – all Labour think they need to do is tell Scots the sky might fall in if we’re independent. Negativity and fearmongering, the magic Scottish Labour formula. And hey, why not? They told everyone the sky would fall in if they voted SNP, and THAT worked, didn’t it?
#73 by Indy on October 24, 2011 - 7:14 am
Fair enough I don’t expect the Labour Party per se to come out in favour of Devo Max but what about individual members who support it? If there is cross-party support from individuals will they be allowed to express that or will they be told that they have to toe the party line?
Because that would leave a significant strand of public opinion in Scotland without political representation which would be an odd thing indeed.
#74 by ReasonableNat on October 21, 2011 - 10:19 am
That’s a very odd conclusion to reach – the last poll with a reasonable sample size was Yes 39%, no 38%. Given a +-3% margin of error that’s basically level pegging – unless, of course, you make the highly dubious assumption that you know what the “don’t knows” want, even though they don’t know themselves?
#75 by ReasonableNat on October 21, 2011 - 10:22 am
Sorry, that was obviously aimed at Ian Smart, doh!
#76 by Ian Smart on October 21, 2011 - 1:18 pm
The point I make about the impossibility of winning an independence vote is made for me above. Even with the SNP’s manifest current advantages and with no opposition worthy of the name the best that can be claimed is that it might be close. Nothing makes that clearer than the assertion that even if Westminster exacerbates thiis by “trampling” on the Scottish Parliament, you still don’t want it to happen, despite the fact you’d win. Whit?
#77 by BaffieBox on October 21, 2011 - 1:47 pm
Im not really sure I follow your logic Ian.
Not wanting something to happen isnt the same thing as being afraid or worried that something would happen. I imagine most in the SNP do not want Westminster to take control because, well, frankly they have no electoral mandate to do so. And lets be honest, nobody gives up control of something they have every right to have… especially in an area where Westminster have “previous” for bending the rules to suit themselves.
I could quite easily use the exact same logic as yourself… that Westminster, with reserved control of constitutional matters as many have tried to suggest, invokes the demons of pensions, defence, and benefits, kill the Independence appetite stone dead and go on to win an early referendum. Jobs-a-good-un. The question is this: if the unionists are as confident as yourself, why havent they done just this?
And ultimately, if you think this is good as it gets for the SNP, what do the unionists have to worry about? Any delay is surely good… it buys you time, lets you get organised and gives you a fair chance in the debate. With momentum clearly with the SNP and the Unionists in disarray, surely it should be yourself that asks for more time? If you think calling an early referendum, and then throwing up some clangers on pensions and benefits will save the union, the Unionists arent even close to getting their act together.
Compare and contrast this with Malcolm Chisholm over on LabourHame.org, who is light years ahead of his peers in Labour.
#78 by Doug Daniel on October 21, 2011 - 1:59 pm
Ian, it’s not as simple as “ooh the Tories are in at Westminster and all the Holyrood opposition are in disarray, suddenly I’m going to support independence”. The current situation may have many advantages, but the main disadvantage still exists: decades of Scots being told they can’t go it alone, or some sort of unnamed disaster will befall Scotland. It takes more than some convenient circumstances to combat that kind of disadvantage. A lot of good progress has been made, but there are a lot of myths still to be dispelled.
That’s not to say they won’t be dispelled. But some people need more convincing than others.
#79 by Rev. S. Campbell on October 21, 2011 - 2:33 pm
Nobody said it “might be” close. It IS close, and both the political and demographic trends are in favour of independence.
And when did I say I didn’t want it to happen? If the Tories run a referendum tomorrow I’ll be bloody ecstatic, because I think we’d win it. I’d rather Scotland decided to become independent from a calm, reasoned choice after a full and informed debate than out of pure spite at the Tories, but I’ll take it either way. As someone whose name escapes me once said – bring it on.
#80 by Ken on October 21, 2011 - 2:43 pm
@DougDaniel:
“Oh come on, of course stuff will be divvied up. Westminster can’t shift debt from the bank bailouts onto us without also giving us our fair share of assets. Why do people think every little thing needs to be put in written agreements to make it true?”
Just to be lock tight and sure. From experience, I’m hesitant to believe ‘promises’ from the UK government (or indeed any government) without it being written down 😉 I know assets and debts will be divvied up, but in what portion. That’s the type of thing where people need to be told “We’re dealing with this, here’s our plan”- again I’m sure it will in time, but silence on the issue doesn’t sit well with me.
“There are an awful lot of “little things†which unionists bring up that apparently need sorting out, but really they’re just trying to put up distractions.”
Lots of little things are as important as 1 big thing. (I’m categorically not a Unionist, quite the opposite – I’m just not an SNP fan)
“Things like “will we need a passport to cross the border?†which are blatantly ridiculous, and other things like “will we need to reapply to join the EU?†where people have actually answered the question, but people choose to ignore it. I mention that one as it was brought up on QT last night, and Mike Russell said what the EU policy on successor states was, and yet Curran and Carmichael (as well as several shaky head audience members) just chose not to believe him.”
Oh undoubtedly there are ridiculous questions. But that doesn’t really surprise me. On EU succession, no – Mike Russell didn’t say that. He said he could quote the position Lord Mackenzie-Stuart a former ECJ President. That’s 1 former judge, not EU policy. Many other legal and political minds, organisations and Treaties that are current do not accept that as concrete fact, merely an opinion of a former judge. If Scotland does not have an automatic right to remain, it will have to re-apply. That shouldn’t be a problem except that other Member States carry a veto/needs unanimity. (Spain, Romania, Greece, Cyprus will all have various opposition to a new ‘separatist’ state). Just don’t assume that 1 former judge’s opinion means it’s all ok for Scotland and the EU. This uncertainty is why I question the policies or lack thereof.
“The thing is, when people say that stuff needs to be written down to assure people it is true, they’re generally not really looking for reassurance – they’re looking for obstructions. ”
Simple answers from a government in power for almost 5 years and a party in existence for decades. I ASSUMED as independence is their raison d’etre, they’d have the answers to the most basic of questions regarding a key stone to any independent state – foreign policy. i.e. what is it?
“You say you’re open to convincing, Ken, but it seems more like you’re asking to be proven wrong, with a “ha! I knew you couldn’t prove it†response waiting to come out. As soon as the burden of proof is met, you’ll have another “unanswered questionâ€, and another, and another.”
I’m not looking for a burden of proof. Just some answers! If you can point me in the right direction, great! Like Angus McLellan did for the SNP proposed defence policy.
“Of course I could be wrong and foreign affairs just happens to be something you worry about on a daily basis. If so, then rest assured that Scotland will not go into independence negotiations without a solid plan in place for making sure we get what we’re owed.”
It is 🙂 And I hope before negotiations begin, the proposals are made clear to the voting public. I’ve seen too many ‘new’ countries flounder at this stage.
“Not with the SNP as the negotiators, anyway.”
I disagree 😛
#81 by Angus McLellan on October 21, 2011 - 5:03 pm
There are a lot of questions about independence which aren’t amenable to simple answers, however long you might spend pondering them. The EU is an obvious example.
As you have grasped – but others haven’t – membership is a political question not a legal one. I think the UK Foreign Office or the US State Department would struggle to give an accurate prediction of the likely position of each and every EU member, so expecting anyone in Scotland to have a view on which much reliance could be placed is optimistic. I don’t think it would be rational for Spain or anyone else to oppose Scottish membership, but history is littered with government decisions which were not rational. So, who can say?
And does EU membership really matter? Probably not as much as you might think. The Wikipedia European Economic Area (and in particular the Venn diagram about halfway down) is useful. Just because there isn’t yet any flag in the purple EEA region of the diagram and no other region (not the EU, not EFTA) doesn’t mean that this will remain empty. After all, the question is a political and diplomatic one, and diplomacy is all about compromises. Every major business in Europe – and beyond – would be up in arms if Scotland weren’t included in the EEA from day one. So it has to be very, very unlikely that there would be much to worry about.
#82 by Don McC on October 21, 2011 - 6:11 pm
Type your comment here
I have to agree with the others and call you on this assertion, Ian. No one believes it’s a certainty that Scotland would vote “No”. If they were, Labour would have held a referendum years ago to shut Salmond up, especially after Salmond conceding that it would end the question of Scottish independence for a generation.
The evidence all points to it being very much 50, 50, too close to call. And while Salmond has reasons to be confident about the outcome, it’s much better to hold off a couple of years and make sure of the result.
#83 by Dubbieside on October 21, 2011 - 7:30 pm
There is one thing that puzzles me in all the talk about assets and liabilities to be shared, is when the talk turns to Scottish pensions.
Since all Scots paid their pension,social security and medical contributions (national insurance) direct to Westminster all their working lives, and at present continue to do so, the liability to cover these should fall with Westminster. Can anyone tell me that, if this is not the case, and if not, why not?
How many £billions would have to come back to Scotland to cover this?
#84 by Angus McLellan on October 22, 2011 - 5:01 pm
National insurance is just a less progressive form of income tax. The government at Westminster isn’t managing a huge pile of NI contributions for rainy days. It’s all spent before it comes in and there are no assets there to be divided.
#85 by Mike on October 22, 2011 - 12:02 am
You werent harangued Jeff, the Gruniad was.
#86 by Gaz on October 24, 2011 - 9:49 am
Things are fast getting beyond retrieval for the No camp.
Ian Smart is like a beacon amidst the stoor being kicked up by his headless chicken contemporaries BUT that doesn’t make him right.
We can all delude ourselves about the why people vote the way they do but ultimately most voting behaviour is instinctive rather than analytical.
There may be reasonable points to be made about funding of pensions and the like but the problem is that there is no credibility in these points when folk on the same side are going around making ridiculous remarks like ‘A seperate Scotland could not have save Libyans from Gadaffi’.
The No/Unionist camp are desperate for the SNP to define the detail of any Independence settlement because they need something to argue against. Without this they have nothing sensible to contribute to the debate.
The amount of positive energy that will be generated by the Yes campaign is going to make this year’s election look like a static shock next to a sunstorm. In such an environment the No camp had better have stronger cards to play than arguable claims about the funding of public sector pensions.
Landslides happen because people want to be part of the story not because they agree with every detail of what they are voting for. I predict that the result of an Independence Referendum will not be close and would not be surprised if the Yes side wins with the same kind of margin as 1997.
You won’t have seen anything like this bandwagon once it gets rolling. The SNP is right to keep it in the pits and get it fine tuned before unleashing it.
Once it is on the road then, and only then, will things be ‘as good as they get for the Independence movement’.