One thing that I have never really ever understood is why, when vegetarians make food, they often make food in the shape of hamburgers or sausages. Surely when there is free rein to arrange your lentils and chick peas in any order you wish, then something far removed from the meat eaters is preferable, at least in name if it not necessarily in shape.
Each to their own of course but I have something of a similar outlook when it comes to the potential contradiction in terms that is ‘gay marriage’. Is it necessary for civil partnerships to converge entirely towards straight marriages? If there is a difference, should that difference be recognised in the nomenclature?
The furore around John Mason’s recent motion was a different issue, that was the seemingly non-existent threat of priests being ‘forced’ to run services for couples of the same sex. A potential next issue is the wording of any law and whether the phrase ‘gay marriage’ should be on any Bill or Law that comes into force. That is perhaps a question for linguists and I daresay someone like Stephen Fry is the best placed to define what the meaning of ‘marriage’ actually is, historic and currently. I personally have certainly always taken it as meaning the coming together of a man and a woman in matrimony, holy or otherwise. I note from headlines that Alex Salmond takes a different view and I do wonder how David Cameron and the majority of the Tory benches see it, quite possibly central to how inflammatory the debate may be.
Do words change over time? Should they? I guess they do for some and don’t for others, with me personally being in the former category but not all thinking any less of those in the latter. Of course, marriage may always have included the meaning of two people promising their lives to each other, it’s just been suppressed, often brutally, for centuries.
Nonetheless, views are what they are, as frustrating as they can be for some. If a man was to suddenly insist that people called him a woman (without any transgender operations having taken place), then that would be patently absurd, surely? However, if a significant number of people have a fixed view that marriage, the meaning of the word marriage, is a man and a woman agreeing to be together for the rest of their lives, then the same absurdity can be understood from their perspective, if you’re generous enough to see it.
Of course, an argument for widening the definition of marriage, if that is even needed in the first place, is that it is clear what the meaning is. Two guys saying they got married doesn’t need any further explanation, two guys saying they have just had a civil ceremony usually does. (Does a civil partnership come with the same rights as a heterosexual marriage? It should do but I don’t know. A gay marriage, of course, would, or, again, at least should.)
I do worry that it will be in Scotland that this argument will surface first. If Alex Salmond can imagine marriage to mean the coming together of any two people for the rest of their lives and the church is inflexible in its view that marriage can only involve a man and a woman, by definition, then I don’t really know what happens next and it is clear from recent press that the church intends to make a big stink about this.
So, to avoid any verbal bricks that may be coming my way, I insist that I have no problem with looking at marriage in a different light as time goes on (veggie burgers too for that matter) but a debate around the meaning of a certain word is probably just around the corner and that’s worth thinking about.
#1 by setindarkness on October 10, 2011 - 1:34 pm
Why is meat arranged into the shape of hamburgers or sausages ? Because it sure is easier to handle than putting something the size and shape of a cow into a roll. Veggie burgers are the same as meat burgers because the rolls are baked that size, and a burger in a bap is a tasty combination.
I suppose I should also discuss the real point of the post 😉
The news for the church is that not everyone gets married in a church this days – they may not want to call a civil joining a marriage (be it between whatever combination of persons exist) but the majority of the population do and if the church don’t keep up, they’ll be left behind
“Oh, you had one of those ‘religious’ marriages? How quaint? Thought no one bother with those anymore. How did you find a church that was still running?”
#2 by Indy on October 10, 2011 - 1:37 pm
I thought Archbishop conti’s statement on this was interesting. He said:
“There are those who would argue that the contract of two persons in an exclusive sexual relationship is what constitutes marriage. From a Catholic and traditional perspective that is only part of the essence of marriage since it is the procreative aspect of marriage as well as its unity which is of its essence.”
For me personally I would say that marriage is the former – it is two people making a commitment to live together and be faithful to each other until they die. That’s why I find concepts like open marriage bewildering and pointless. But it’s also why I don’t see why same sex couples shoudn’t be able to marry.
And I am confused about the procreative aspect of it. Yes. I can understand that the Church thinks children should be born in wedlock but what about people who are past having children? The last wedding I attended was a re-marriage for both partners, they are in their fifties, they ain’t going to be having babies. Does that mean it is not a proper marriage?
Or to take a more public example – Prince Charles and Camilla Parker-Bowles. They are also past the age of child bearing. Does that make their marriage not a real marriage somehow?
And what about the whole issue of sex outside of marriage supposedly being wrong? The Church appears to be arguing the opposite case here – that sex inside marriage is wrong if it is a same sex couple.
It’s all tremendously confusing. But for me it comes down to this; would you really be willing to look a gay friend in the eye and say no, I don’t think you should be allowed to get married. You can have a civil partnership but marriage is reserved for straight people. That is just a bit to much like saying no you can’t sit down the front of the bus, you can get on the bus but you have to sit at the back, for my liking.
#3 by Cameron on October 10, 2011 - 1:38 pm
Can I just point out (as a pescetarian – fishy vegitarian) that the reason vegetarian burgers are burger shaped is because rolls are burger shaped (fit that in your analogy). So if we were to go crazy and make, for example, a dinosaur shaped burger it would not fit neatly in the roll unless we made a dinosaur shaped roll and that’s clearly too much effort.
Sausages – not really sure. Probably just because it’s convenient.
Civil partnership is equal to a marriage, that’s the whole point of it however but can I just say I thought the whole issue here was that the government was just moving to a stand point of gay marriage not being illegal. Nobody is forced to do anything in contrast to now where churches are forced to not marry gay people.
#4 by Una on October 10, 2011 - 1:46 pm
I guess I would turn it around and say that if society recognises the union between gay people, then why is there a need for a different name, and a continued two-stream system? Why should your sexuality have to be declared on every form you fill in?
Early definitions of marriage were made in the days when homosexual relationships were not recognised, and also when women were property of men – it has moved on from that, and will continue to move on, thankfully..
Allowing a ‘civil partnership’ to be called a marriage threatens nobody but it gives recognition to the romance, which is probably what the opponents are afraid of. ‘Civil partnership’ is a terribly cold term.
Churches are welcome to their views, but not to impose them on anyone else.
#5 by An Duine Gruamach on October 10, 2011 - 1:51 pm
Jeff – you’ve mentioned “the church” a few times in your piece. Which church do you mean? The big stink has of course been kicked up the Catholic church, but they represent less than a fifth of the country – and the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey suggests that a majority of them are in favour of gay marriage.
The Free Kirk has also made its views known, but the Church of Scotland (about 40% of Scots claim affinity with the Kirk, according to the 2001 census) seems a bit more ambiguous. As far as I understand the Kirk’s position, ministers are free to bless same-sex civil partnerships, but I don’t know if they’ve made any official stand on gay marriage as such.
#6 by Jeff on October 10, 2011 - 1:58 pm
I guess I mean the Catholic church then. I was deliberately being a bit vague as I don’t know where each of the Christian religions stand on this one, except for the Catholic church of course.
And your statistic there (verified – 62% of Scottish Catholics agree that same sex couples should “marry”) puts the bishops in a tricky spot. Good one.
#7 by An Duine Gruamach on October 10, 2011 - 5:49 pm
It doesn’t put them in that tricky a spot, actually. Unlike Presbyterians, Catholics don’t elect their leaders.
#8 by Gryff on October 12, 2011 - 9:33 am
Exactly, – the Catholic Hierarchy is under no obligation to represent the views of the ordinary catholic in the pew, and indeed probably never has, ordinary Catholics have believed a whole range of things over the ages, the Church has attempted to correct the more egregious errors, but has never been more than partially succesful. This doesn’t cause any contradiction, it just goes to prove that the world is a wicked and fallen place, and what a jolly good thing it is that the church is around to preserve the truth.
#9 by James on October 12, 2011 - 12:59 pm
A Labour-supporting friend, raised Catholic, told me this story yesterday. At Mass last Sunday, the same Mass supposed to be a fire-breathing anti-gay storm of righteousness, much of the congregation was gathered after for an “ooh don’t they look lovely” session around some wedding photos at the back of the church. I’m told that both grooms did indeed look very fetching. Congregations usually are ahead of their notional leaders..
#10 by Jeff on October 10, 2011 - 2:52 pm
Incidentally, that leaves 39% who don’t believe in gay marriage. Current levels of support for independence are 38% I believe?
Does that mean Scotland is more homophobic than Nationalist?
#11 by An Duine Gruamach on October 10, 2011 - 5:48 pm
No, it means Catholics are more homophobic than Scots are Nationalist :p
#12 by Jeff on October 10, 2011 - 7:25 pm
Good point!
#13 by CassiusClaymore on October 10, 2011 - 2:41 pm
Gays should be allowed to be married. Why ever not?
Marriage hasn’t been exclusively a religious matter for a long time now.
I don’t think the SNP is planning to force individual clerics to preside over gay marriages. On that basis, I don’t see what the Catholic Church is whining about. Refuseniks within the church will be able to exempt themselves.
What this boils down to is that Catholic Church is basically saying to Parliament – “pick a side – us, or the gay community”.
I think they have to be careful with that tactic. They won’t like the answer they get. Society has moved on.
CC
#14 by Indy on October 10, 2011 - 2:56 pm
What the Catholic Church is saying is the equal marriage would redefine what marriage means. And obviously it would but it would, in my opinion, redefine it to match what most people think it is anyway i.e. two people making a lifelong commitment to one another. That will not affect the ability of religious bodies to adhere to their own biblical view of marriage as being between a man and a woman for the purposes of procreation.
#15 by Gregor on October 10, 2011 - 3:42 pm
“Nonetheless, views are what they are, as frustrating as they can be for some. If a man was to suddenly insist that people called him a woman (without any transgender operations having taken place), then that would be patently absurd, surely?”
Why? It’s an important first step. It takes years before anyone gets anywhere near a surgical table…
But it’s a good piece, Jeff, and I hope that you’ve found the answer you were looking for. I agree entirely with Una that separate-but-equal isn’t really equal at all, and with CassiusClaymore that the Catholic Church’s stance is.. unfathonable.
If they don’t want to marry same sex couples, then they don’t have to. Where is the fuss? They currently don’t marry divorcees, and no one is making them change their internal rules for that. This is about extending religious freedoms to those denominations which wish to celebrate the love of their flock – how ANY religious body would wish to restrict that religious freedom is frankly beyond my ken.
#16 by Doug Daniel on October 10, 2011 - 4:15 pm
As a practicing atheist, I think it’ll be a shame if the Scottish Government gives the Catholic church (or any other church) so much as an inch here. People are entitled to follow whichever religion they wish (unfortunately), but government makes laws for all, so their decisions must not be tainted by any religious minority groups. Do we, as a society, consider gay people to be inferior to straight people? If not, then they must be afforded the same rights.
As others have mentioned, it’s difficult to properly define marriage. The procreative aspect makes a mockery of marriages not just in later life, but also of younger couples who cannot have children for various reasons. Does this mean a sterile male can never get married? Or a woman who has had to have her uterus removed due to cancer? Or what about couples who remarry who already have their own children and don’t wish to have more?
Okay, so maybe it’s just two people who love each other and pledge to spend the rest of their lives together. But what about cases where one partner is known to have only a short time left on this mortal coil, where the other partner knows in advance that this won’t be a lifelong commitment? What about arranged marriages, where love between the couple is not a pre-requisite? What about couples where one person, for whatever reason, cannot fulfil the sexual needs of the other, and thus gives their blessing for the other person to seek the company of others, so long as they come back to the marital bed every night?
Defining marriage too narrowly would mean slighting hundreds, if not thousands, of couples. People have all sorts of reasons for getting married (and for not doing so) and who are we to judge their reasons? How about this: marriage is when two people sign a contract formalising their relationship in the eyes of the law, binding them together until the contract is broken. That’s about as close as you can get without casting people out.
#17 by Indy on October 10, 2011 - 4:33 pm
And it’s further complicated by the fact that gay couples can and do have children. So effectively the Church is saying we don’t want these children brought up in the kind of stable family enviroment we advocate for everyone else.
It really is Alice in Wonderland stuff.
#18 by Nikostratos on October 10, 2011 - 4:37 pm
‘I don’t really know what happens next’
Oh come on Jeff the snp will lose votes and so Alex will(already has??) climb down.
“These provisions, in fact, seem to deepen the embrace of an ideological understanding of human sexuality, which is rejected by the Catholic Church and is contrary to natural law.â€
Look see man and woman same as E=mc2 of course you will always get someone saying sexuality is a social construct but we wont listen to that over the Bible
#19 by Indy on October 11, 2011 - 7:41 am
What a strange comment. Do you think the SNP decided to support equal marriage on a whim and now are thinking oh no, the Catholic Church is against it we’d better back down? Don’t you think they factored in the likely reaction of the Catholic Church before reaching their decision? Basically they have done the electoral maths and calculated that this is not a vote loser. It might have been ten years ago but not now. That’s why the other parties support it too.
#20 by gavin on October 10, 2011 - 4:52 pm
I always understood that priests not marrying was a partly a means of preserving wealth and property to the Catholic church. The main objection against same sex marriage appears to be “not Natural”. There is surely no greater way to be against nature than to be celibate. The list of sexually active Pontiffs show human nature as it actually exists and presumably how GOD ( I do not believe in the concept ) wants his creatures to behave!
#21 by Observer on October 10, 2011 - 7:29 pm
I think there is a lot of fuss being made over this which is entirely un-necessary. At the moment there are two forms of official bonding available to couples. There are civil partnerships which are available for gay couples, but not heterosexual couples, & there is marriage which is only available for heterosexual couples. All the law will do is remove a barrier which prevents both bonding ceremonies from being available to everyone.
The form that marriage takes, what it means, is really up to the people getting married. Marriage has meant a lot of things in the past that we don’t associate with it now. For example – choice. In many societies in the past including our own, many people didn’t get a choice who they married, it was done for the sake of promoting family interests. That seems bizarre to us now, but that illustrates that marriage is not a fixed & permanent thing in its nature. It evolves, but not always as there are still societies which function like that.
The last wedding I went to was outdoors, conducted by a humanist celebrant, with the bridge & groom’s children in attendance. That was not a traditional marriage, but it was a marriage to them.
Archbishop Conti is trying to pretend that family life is at stake, & has made some very misleading statements in that regard. ” There will be other consequences in law, and social policies stemming from it which need to be taken into account, for example housing provision, social security entitlements and the legitimate expectations of families for support in having and bringing up children on whom the future of society depends, and for which society should make provision.” Untrue.
I fear that if the Catholic Church wish to introduce these kind of tactics then it is going to become a very divisive issue, when it doesn’t need to be.
They really need to show a bit more Christian tolerance.
#22 by Observer on October 10, 2011 - 7:47 pm
”This is about extending religious freedoms to those denominations which wish to celebrate the love of their flock – how ANY religious body would wish to restrict that religious freedom is frankly beyond my ken.”
That is correct Gregor. But it is not the Catholic Church which is restricting religious freedom. It is the state. By having the current laws in place the state is restricting the right of religious bodies to interpret scripture how they like.
The Catholic Church should not be able to rely on the state to enforce their theological view on other Churches who hold another view.
#23 by Gregor on October 10, 2011 - 8:36 pm
I’m sorry, I don’t understand.
I was saying that removing the current ban on allowing religious bodies officiating at such events would be an extension of their religious freedoms, and thought it was petty for the Catholic Church to hit out at the other religions wishing to increase their freedoms.
So, I think we’re singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak, yes? 🙂
#24 by Ben Achie on October 10, 2011 - 7:53 pm
Semantics are important. Just look at what has happened to the meaning of “partner”! Meanings do change over time, but that should be driven by society, not legislatures.
#25 by Indy on October 11, 2011 - 7:51 am
It is driven by society though. Do you think when two same sex couples get married – sorry, enter into a civil partnership – they actually say guess what mum and dad we are entering into a civil partnership or do you think they say we have decided to tie the knot? Do they refer to each other as civil partners or as wife/husband? And what do other people think a civil partnership is about? It’s exactly the same as a marriage. You know, if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck why not just call it a duck?
As I have already said those people who believe in a biblical view of marriage can continue to have that view, no-one is going to force them to change that. But most people don’t take that view.
#26 by Welshguy on October 10, 2011 - 7:55 pm
“It’s very dear to me, the issue of gay marriage. Or, as I like to call it, ‘marriage’. You know, because, I had lunch this afternoon; not gay lunch. I parked my car; I didn’t gay park it.”
– Liz Feldman
#27 by Alwyn ap Huw on October 10, 2011 - 7:57 pm
In this case it is the Bishop who is misusing the traditional definition of marriage. The church service was always considered to be a ceremony asking for God’s blessing on the marriage of a man and a woman – the actual marriage occurred when the man and woman physically joined together. In many Christian cultures the job of the best man and bridesmaids was to prepare the bride and groom for bed and to witness that the marriage happened physically.
The Catholic Church has annulled a number of marriages, (that is said that the marriage didn’t occur – it wasn’t a proper marriage) the two most common grounds for this were that the bride and groom never joined together or that the husband found that the wife wasn’t a virgin at the time of her vows – so she had been “married” before.
Up to the 1970’s I knew of a number of Welsh nonconformist chapels where mothers of illegitimate children and men who were known womanisers weren’t allowed to be married because they had clearly been previously married “in the shrubs and the groves”, so couldn’t be re-married in church.
Using the traditional church definition of marriage, when a man is sexually joined with another man he is married to him. The archbishop can argue that such a marriage is unholy and sinful, but he cannot deny that according to Christian usage they are married.
#28 by Barbarian on October 10, 2011 - 9:14 pm
It is correct that any religion may have rules on marriage, and what cermonies may take place in their places of worship.
What is NOT accepable is when they try to impose their views on non-believers (aka heretics).
#29 by Observer on October 10, 2011 - 10:05 pm
Yes Gregor, I apologise if my post was a bit obscure. Perhaps my point is, but I think it is important that the state retreats from a theological argument. The state in the terms of law should have nothing to do with it. We should give everyone a level playing field. That seems obvious to me, the moment this country decided that homosexuality was not illegal, then homosexuals inherited the same rights as the rest of us. That includes marriage. Whether Churches decide to perform ceremomies is entirely up to them, I do not believe that there should be a law preventing that.
#30 by Steve on October 10, 2011 - 11:41 pm
As a married man I’d just like to say that I can’t wait for gay marriage to be legalised. I wanted to get married and I’m glad I did, but it’s more than a little embarrassing that I have bought in to an institution that discriminates against gay people. it shouldn’t be a privilege that’s denied to people just because they are gay, that’s completely wrong. I know people who have said they won’t get married on principle until gay marriage is allowed, an honourable position.
If it were up to me we’d all be allowed to have a civil marriage and this would have to be conducted in a secular ceremony by a registrar. People could then get “religious marriages” in churches and other religious places, but these wouldn’t have any legal status.
#31 by Shuna on October 11, 2011 - 11:13 am
Great discussion here – but thought a ‘Rev’ might have something to add.
Religious freedom with regards to marriage already exists in the Church of Scotland. If I am approached by a couple and asked to officiate at their wedding one of my first questions is ‘why in the Church?’ I need to be clear that in officiating at a Christian Marriage Ceremony that the couple are comfortable with me asking God’s blessing on their marriage – if they are not then the church is not where they should get married.
It is always a delight for me when a couple come seeking marriage where one or both of them are Christians. But I am also delighted to marry couples who are not Christians but have some sense of ‘other’ and have no problems with me involving God in teh ceremony.
Equally I would have no problem with blessing a civil partnership (although there is the possibility if I do that I could be hauled up for it – although I am not aware of this happening to anyone who has blessed a CP) I look forward to equal rights for LGBT couples and to being able to give to them the same ceremony I can currently give straight couples.
Alas the CofS has no stance on this – it is still trying to work out if clergy can be LGBT. The danger is always that we talk of the church’s view on specific issues when the church is a broad definition – when within the church there is a very broad view on this and many other issues. (I am currently working with an RC priest in trying to sort out a wedding of two Christians – one RC the other not and boy is it interesting!)
With regards Steve’s last point on secular Vs religious marriages – currently during a wedding ceremony I act on behalf of the registrar in conducting the legal aspects of a marriage ceremony (ie the civil bit) within the context of a religious ceremony – I cant see any benefit to seperating the two.
#32 by Kirsty on October 11, 2011 - 3:46 pm
If the state agrees that two adults can get married to each other, then they should be able to have a marriage, irregardless of their gender or sexual orientation, and it should be called exactly that. It’s a state sanctioned legal agreement after all.
It should be then up to private providers of marriage (the churches) to decide who it is they wish to marry, while the state is there to provide marriages to anyone who meets the requirements (adult, sound mind, not related, etc).
This is rather taking the romance out of it all admittedly…!
#33 by Erchie on October 11, 2011 - 6:02 pm
I looked into marriage outside church or registry office when we were thinking of getting hitched.
It was only just before WW2 that, in Scotland, you could no longer be married just by saying, in public, we’re married.
Niko’s comment is telling.
As a Labour supporter, he can’t perceive anything being done for principle, so he crows at the prospect of lost votes. Yet what the SNP is doing here, even if some of their supporters and voters disagree, is the right thing
#34 by James on October 12, 2011 - 10:43 am
And was a divorce that easy? I bet the Maximum Eck must wish he could just stand up and say “England – it’s over”.
And yes, if the SNP do deliver this they will deserve proper credit.