Rev. Stuart Campbell is a professional journalist and blogger who writes about politics and other trivial matters for culture journal Wings Over Sealand.
As a Scot who’s made their life in England for the last 20 years, and also as someone on the liberal half of the political spectrum with friends and acquaintances of a predominantly similar persuasion, there’s a sentence I hear more than any other with regard to politics: “I wish we could vote for the SNP too”.
But it’s not just the material things – the free tuition, the free prescriptions, the free care for the elderly (and the abundance of natural resources) – that my dear English chums envy.
Most of them DO envy those things, of course, not out of greed or a sense of entitlement but rather because they appreciate a government that prioritises the things its people want. Conduct a UK-wide survey asking voters whether, for example, they’d rather their taxes were spent on healthcare or on buying useless weapons of global destruction and sending our young men and women to get killed in their hundreds in foreign wars of dubious legality and purpose, and I suspect you’d get a pretty unequivocal answer. But incredibly, there is no electable party south of the border offering those values.
(The Liberal Democrats pretended to stand for some of them, but abandoned their principles with startling and dismaying speed at the first sign of a ministerial car. Not for nothing was the most-tweeted post-election political joke “Why did Nick Clegg cross the road? Because he said he wouldn’t.”)
There is also considerable – and entirely legitimate – anger about the West Lothian Question. Only this weekend I had to explain the WLQ to an English woman (not an avid follower of politics) who didn’t know that Scottish MPs were allowed to vote on UK Parliament matters solely concerning England and Wales, and who was quite justifiably outraged to discover that the tuition fees imposed on English students alone were only made possible by the votes of Scottish Labour MPs whose constituents were exempt.
This double democratic deficit has a simple solution, of course – the end of the Union. Scotland and England could dissolve their increasingly strained and unhappy marriage – in which the partners are held together more by force law than any common interests or goals – and either become fully separate or participants in a federal UK with largely token bonds of unity.
(In respect of the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland already has a very separate way of doing things, with its own distinct political parties and structures, and the Welsh can to all intents and purposes be considered a region of England, comprising mostly 80-minute/roadsign patriots with very little appetite for even fairly trivial levels of devolution when it comes to the crunch at the ballot box.)
The English would be freed of the (real) West Lothian injustice and their (perceived) subsidy of the ungrateful Scots – leaving them, they would believe, the extra billions to make their own universities and prescriptions free and so on – whereas the Scots could elect governments more suited to their different political and social culture without having their wishes invariably trampled by the numerically-superior south.
The problem is that there is no way for English voters to express support for these ideas. All three mainstream parties are fanatically pro-Union (though mostly, if pressed on the issue, for largely nebulous reasons), and the likes of the English Democrats are either nutter-fringe outfits, racists or both. Opinion polls consistently show that roughly as many (and sometimes more) English people support an end to the Union as Scots, yet there is nowhere they can put a cross in a box to say so. Which is why the SNP should put up candidates for English elections.
It’s perhaps important to note at this point that I’m serious. I genuinely believe it’s something the Nationalists should do, rather than an abstract debating point. But obviously there would have to be some qualifications. Firstly, the SNP clearly can’t afford to contest every English seat in a General Election, and nor would there be any point in them doing so. But running in a handful of carefully-chosen by-elections offers huge potential benefits, and not just for the party itself.
Picture the scenario. A formerly strong Liberal Democrat seat, somewhere in the south of England, with low support for Labour. A Lib Dem vote that is very likely hugely disaffected and angry, and looking for somewhere to go. The chances are that they voted Lib Dem in the first place to keep the Tories out (so they’re not likely to defect in that direction), and that they did so either because Labour had little to no chance of success, or because of an equal antipathy to them.
Straight away there’s plenty to play for, then. And while it might seem counter-intuitive for the SNP to stand in the south of England rather than the more left-wing north, that’s precisely why it would be a good idea. It took Scotland a generation to free itself of the reflexive instinct to turn Labour in times of austerity – even when Labour had abandoned most of the principles that bred that instinct – and northern England would be starting from cold.
According to Scottish Vote Compass, the policies of the 2010 Lib Dem manifesto are already far closer to the SNP’s than those of the Tories or Labour. The party is also already familiar and comfortable with the idea of a federal structure – that being the way in which the Liberal Democrat Party itself is organised in terms of the UK- so switching to the SNP would in many senses be the easiest ideological leap for former LD voters to make.
But the SNP would also have another, slightly less palatable, advantage in a by-election in the south. They might well also attract the votes of disgruntled Daily Mail and Express and Telegraph readers who since 2007 have been fed a constant diet of mendacious anti-Scottish propaganda. The messageboards of those publications overflow with angry readers bitterly bemoaning the “subsidy junkie” Scots and urging them to just get on with it and leave. Given the opportunity of a two-for-one protest against both the whingeing Jocks and the mainstream parties at a time when disillusionment with Westminster politics has never been higher, is it such a stretch to imagine them, too, lending the SNP their vote?
Disaffected Lib Dems allied awkwardly to the Little Englander brigade would be a formidable electoral presence. But even if we assume that actually winning the election would be a pipe-dream – and indeed even if the SNP candidate lost their deposit – the mere act of standing would bring the SNP media coverage that money couldn’t buy. The subject of the Unionwould be the hot topic of debate not merely in the wee provinces of the north, but across the national media.
It’s hard to imagine a political operator as savvy as Alex Salmond failing to grasp such a glorious opportunity, and his job would be made easier by the fact that the greater the scrutiny of the relationship between Scotland and England – whether political or economic – the better the outcome tends to be for the SNP. Scotland has the truth on its side when it comes to whether it pays its way in the UK or not, and the Nationalists also command the moral high ground when it comes to the West Lothian Question, with their MPs abstaining on England-only matters in the House Of Commons.
But it’s not only Scotland that would stand to benefit. Salmond’s much-acclaimed appearance on the BBC’s Question Time earlier this year showed that the SNP’s position on subjects like the NHS and PFI carries a lot of traction south of the border too. A more social-democratic agenda being raised and discussed at length could only be good news for those of us down here who currently have no voice in Westminster, if only to remind British people that such voices still exist and such principles are still viable. Systemically-unequal neoliberal free-market capitalism isn’t the only game in town (as nations like those ofScandinavia ably demonstrate).
English voters are currently starved of meaningful democratic choices, being plagued by three parties that are in most important and practical senses indistinguishable from each other. (All support nuclear weapons and power, all want to persecute welfare recipients, all voted for tuition fees, all are a threat to civil liberties, etc.) The SNP has plenty of cash in its war-chest to fight a by-election or two. It’s hard to see what either could have to lose.
Originally posted on Rev S Campbell’s own blog.
ADDENDUM – by Malc
Within this piece there was a reference to Wales as “to all intents and purposes a region of England” which led to a discussion about Welsh and Gaelic languages, which may have offended some readers.
My own clear view is that the suggestion that minority languages are not welcome in the UK is not just wrong, it is ignorant and has a basis in colonialist attitudes.
Better Nation was intended as a vehicle to discuss and debate views which would improve Scotland in the future. I deeply regret that we featured an author whose views are so at odds with the protection of historical and cultural values held by those who hold dear their own language.
Future guest posts will certainly get a closer examination before they go up.
MH
#1 by James on September 7, 2011 - 1:33 pm
Greens already fill the gap to the left of Labour down south, and they’ve got a track record of being electable. Although the SNP did once have a councillor in Brighton, of all places.
My advice would be for the SNP to focus on a more radical alternative to their current tack here, which remains simply to implement the Westminster cuts.
#2 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 1:40 pm
SNP councillor in Brighton? Tell me more!
Do the English Greens stand for an end to the Union? If not, they don’t really fit the bill in terms of the issues being discussed – the West Lothian Question, the subsidy debate etc.
#3 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 1:44 pm
Ah, the old SNP councillor in Brighton gig.
I believe the situation amounts to little more than a councillor moving from Brighton to Scotland and rather than wait till he was north of the border to change party, he did it beforehand. So not quite tying in with what you’re saying in your post Stuart, but still a fun wee ditty to have in the backpocket nonetheless.
#4 by James on September 7, 2011 - 2:42 pm
Naw, he switched from Labour to the SNP following a Christmas visit to the homeland…
#5 by DougtheDug on September 7, 2011 - 7:07 pm
My advice would be for the SNP to focus on a more radical alternative to their current tack here, which remains simply to implement the Westminster cuts.
It’s called independence James.
#6 by James on September 7, 2011 - 7:09 pm
Not yet it isn’t, bro, it’s called using the devolved powers to the max in the mean time. Something the SNP seem unwilling to do.
#7 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 7:09 pm
There’s an intervening period between now and whenever independence happens where the SNP has to do something that (this might hurt) isn’t independence.
#8 by James on September 7, 2011 - 7:16 pm
It’s so boring when we’re of one mind, Jeff. Let’s pick something arbitrary to argue about.
#9 by Allan on September 7, 2011 - 9:26 pm
I’m sure that’s what Nick said to Dave… or maybe it was the other way around!
#10 by oldchap on September 7, 2011 - 1:56 pm
A good idea in many respects – but it would be harder for the SNP to sell itself as a party with only the interests of Scotland at heart when standing for seats outside of Scotland.
A better angle might be for a separate, similar party to launch in England but for them and the SNP (+PC and nationalist NI parties) to ally where necessary. Or for the English Greens to push for English devolution / independence!
#11 by James on September 7, 2011 - 2:43 pm
The English Greens are in favour of self-determination. Hence them leaving the question of Scotland’s future to the Scots.
#12 by oldchap on September 7, 2011 - 3:09 pm
I thought they probably would be! Maybe what I’m driving at is they they could make a bigger deal of it? Though I can understand they might not want to.
#13 by TheCornishRepublican on September 7, 2011 - 2:13 pm
Mebyon Kernow fills that role in Cornwall. If only we could get a little more air time in the media and a lot more recognition from our ‘friends’ around the Isles!
As for England there is a real lack of a left-wing English party. English nationalism is quite depressing to observe.
The grass roots English regionalists found in Wessex, Mercia and Northumbria have some interesting things to say but seem to garner little support at the moment.
Wessex Regionalists blog here: http://wessexregionalists.blogspot.com/2011/09/cycling-at-edge.html
Its worth noting the federation of democratic nationalists and regionalists that exists in France -Regions et Peuples Solidaire- that regoups parties from Alsace, Occitania, Catalonia, Brittany, Savoie, Basque Country and Corsica. This puts the autonomists in a much stronger position when negotiating with the Greens or Socialists and allows them to cover most of France.
I believe a similar federation of autonomists is in the offing in Italy.
#14 by Doug Daniel on September 7, 2011 - 2:16 pm
It’s an interesting idea, and certainly there was a feeling after Big Eck’s QT appearance that English voters would love to have the chance to vote for someone espousing such views. However, I can’t help feeling it would be a bit negative and paramount to trying to interfere with other people’s affairs.
Regardless of how much I want the union to end, I wouldn’t feel entirely comfortable with the idea of SNP candidates standing in England saying “vote for me to get rid of me and my fellow subsidy junkies!” The whole point of Scottish independence is, for me, that it is a positive move forward for Scotland, and while it may indeed be a positive move for England too, I would prefer to let them work out how to achieve that by themselves, rather than harnessing the ill-informed opinions of Daily Mail readers. Besides which, we have to gain our independence on our own terms, not through England chucking us out.
I know your argument is more complex than that, but for me, these would override the other reasons. I also think it would lead to unnecessary complications for the SNP, and that’s the last thing we need.
Having said that, I’ve seen the idea mooted before of the SNP standing candidates in Penrith etc – that might be an interesting exercise.
#15 by Doug Daniel on September 7, 2011 - 2:20 pm
Paramount? Tantamount.
#16 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 2:27 pm
The idea isn’t to interfere with anyone’s affairs – a byelection is useless for that – but to make a point/register a protest, which is what byelections ARE good for. Namely, that with regard to the specific issues mentioned there is a democratic deficit in both countries, but particularly in England. There’s a fantastic angle in it needing the SNP to come down from Scotland and offer a solution.
@oldchap – Doing it via a new party is a waste of time, because it would just be one of a hundred new niche parties that crop up every year and would be ignored by the media. The SNP have a major advantage in that they have a significant political presence already, with a leader who’s well-recognised UK-wide, and their standing in the election would be immediately newsworthy.
#17 by John on September 7, 2011 - 2:22 pm
I always thought the SNP should run a candidiate for London Mayor at the very least, to show how it is done…
However, “The Liberal Democrats pretended to stand for some of them, but abandoned their principles with startling and dismaying speed at the first sign of a ministerial car. ”
Easy to say and laugh at, harder to justify. They may have got themselves into an ungodly mess about tuition fees, but they are to be joined in that room soon enough by everyone else, including the SNP, who set themselves against any change.
And if they are abandoning all their principles, how come the Tory Right – like Dorries at PMQs today – are getting so exercised at the LDs getting everything their own way?
Scottish Labour complained the same in 2003 – so the LDs must be doing something right – not least getting more of their manifesto delivered north and south of the border than either of their partners in Government, past or present.
If you care about politics, you can’t argue every person you disagree with away with accusations of the lure of the ministerial car. What would folk have said if the Lab-LD-PC-SNP-Green-DUP-SF coalition had come off instead in 2010??
#18 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 3:38 pm
I’m not sure anything a loony like Nadine Dorries says can be held up as very good evidence for anything…
The Lib Dems have sold out on a lot more than tuition fees since joining the coalition. Indeed, joining the coalition at all was a broken promise in itself:
http://wosland.podgamer.com/?p=3692
“They may have got themselves into an ungodly mess about tuition fees, but they are to be joined in that room soon enough by everyone else, including the SNP, who set themselves against any change.”
Do you know something the rest of us don’t?
#19 by RTG on September 7, 2011 - 2:40 pm
What a wonderfully idiotic statement!
” the Welsh can to all intents and purposes be
considered a region of England, comprising mostly 80-
minute/roadsign patriots with very little appetite for
even fairly trivial levels of devolution when it comes
to the crunch at the ballot box.)”
solidarity to you too brother.
#20 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 2:51 pm
I fully expect Welsh nationalists to be huffy about that remark, but unfortunately the statistics bear it out. 50.3% vote in the initial referendum for the Assembly, with all the regions bordering England voting against? 35% turnout in the vote for increased powers? I’m quite happy to call that “very little appetite”.
#21 by James on September 7, 2011 - 2:59 pm
It is pretty insulting. If I’d spotted that when the post came round the editors I would have asked you to think again about it. And not just because I’m 1/4 Welsh.
#22 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 3:02 pm
Incidentally, considering Wales a “region of England” because they only just voted for devolution is a pretty strange standard to use to define a nation or region.
#23 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 3:25 pm
I didn’t actually say that. Wales is “to all intents and purposes a region of England” because in the large majority of aspects – far more than Scotland – it shares its laws and administration with England, though it did become slightly more devolved this year.
The Act of Union applies specifically to Scotland and England, and its dissolution would have no direct bearing on Wales whatsoever, therefore in all senses relevant to this particular discussion it can be considered part of England.
#24 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 5:51 pm
That’s fair. Legally, at any rate, that makes sense. But the way you framed the statement was thus:
“and the Welsh can to all intents and purposes be considered a region of England, comprising mostly 80-minute/roadsign patriots with very little appetite for even fairly trivial levels of devolution when it comes to the crunch at the ballot box.”
Which, you can probably understand, did sound to me like your consideration of Wales as a region of England was linked to their voting record on devolution.
#25 by Hendre on September 7, 2011 - 5:59 pm
It could be said that Wales was part of the Kingdom of England but the Kingdom of England ceased to exist in 1707. Rescinding the Treaty of Union won’t necessarily lead to the re-emergence of the Kingdom of England. Isn’t there’s another Act of Union still in force, the one that created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland?
#26 by Craig Gallagher on September 7, 2011 - 9:56 pm
Not in force, no. The constitutional settlement that currently predominates with regards to Britain as a whole is the one that gave the Republic of Ireland its independence in the 1920s.
The 1707 Act of Union is still relevant though, since its provisions have been incorporated into every constitutional settlement since its ratification. The renegotiation of the borders of the British state have never impinged on any of the material Articles, only affecting the Kingdom’s name, jurisdiction, holdings of the monarch etc. Scots Law, Presbyterianism et al have always merited seperate Acts of Parliament (Scotland) independent from the more general Acts of Parliament that affect the entire UK.
#27 by Hendre on September 8, 2011 - 9:56 am
Oh no, are you saying Wikipedia has got it wrong? According to that source the 1800 Act (or Acts) has been amended but is still in force. There’s a lot of talk of reverting to the status quo ante, to the pre-1707 position but I’m rather sceptical about that.
#28 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 3:00 pm
The fact that they were offered such “trivial levels of devolution” in 1997 was part of the reason for the small turnout – and that small majority. Plus the Welsh haven’t had the same experience of Constitutional Convention/ engagement with Civic Society on the issue that we’ve had. (In case you wondered, this is part of my thesis). But yes, I expect you’ve alienated our Welsh audience with that statement.
#29 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 3:07 pm
“The fact that they were offered such “trivial levels of devolution†in 1997 was part of the reason for the small turnout”
Then surely when offered a vote on significantly greater powers the turnout should have been larger, not a *spectacularly* dismal 35%?
I admit the “80-minute/roadsign nationalists” line is a little provocative, but as a journalist I have no time whatsoever for people putting barriers in the way of communication.
It’s not any antipathy to the Welsh – my closest family members other than my parents live in Neath, and I got in a lot of trouble on Newsnet Scotland a few months back for saying the same sort of things about Gaelic and Scots – just a deeply held contempt for those who want to make it harder for us all to talk to each other, not easier.
(And those who will do anything to proclaim their separate identity except vote for it, whether in Wales or Scotland.)
#30 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 5:45 pm
The second “powers” referendum wasn’t a vote on “significantly” greater powers though – it was a vote to agree to some extra powers which Westminster had already agreed the Assembly should have. The powers were not in dispute, just the timing of their delivery. That’s why the referendum had such a dismal turnout – coz people weren’t enthused by the issue (and neither side was designated as “lead” campaigns by the Electoral Commission, which made for a pretty stale contest).
#31 by Hendre on September 7, 2011 - 5:48 pm
“Then surely when offered a vote on significantly greater powers the turnout should have been larger, not a *spectacularly* dismal 35%?”
The problem with the referendum on moving from Part 3 to Part 4 of the 2006 Government of Wales Act was that the principle of legislative powers for the Assembly had already been ceded; the referendum was merely concerned with procedure. Try selling that on the doorstep.
#32 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 5:58 pm
Yep – that’s what I was trying to say!
#33 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 6:13 pm
Fair enough, then I stand corrected on that issue. I still think “limited powers on offer” is a woeful excuse for the first vote, though. If the SNP have proved nothing else, surely it’s that gradualism works. The more enthusiastically you vote for change, the more convincing the demand for further change is.
And I still hate all language separatists.
#34 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 6:23 pm
Its only part of the reason. There was no real civic society demand for devolution the way we had, plus the Welsh devolution legislation was treated as an afterthought to the Scottish stuff. Plus the model was diabolical – basically making just democratising the role of Sec State for Wales to an administrative body, the “body corporate”.
Also – and this point has been made by others – Plaid were what you call “language separatists” before they were “nationalist separatists”.
#35 by Anon. on September 7, 2011 - 7:21 pm
Language separatists? Your position is at best that of a pre-Babelian fantasist, at worst that of a monocultural fascist. Why should Gaelic or Welsh speakers give up their own language and you shouldn’t? Why should a working-class Scots speakers be told that from the day they born that they and their families’ means of communication is simply not valid and must be corrected? Lucky you, being born into a majority language community. What a shame that these selfish people must persist in inconveniencing you.
#36 by Hendre on September 7, 2011 - 6:12 pm
“just a deeply held contempt for those who want to make it harder for us all to talk to each other, not easier. ”
Go on, you’re really Jeremy Clarkeson in disguise and you want the UN to ban all languages bar English!
#37 by TheCornishRepublican on September 7, 2011 - 2:48 pm
“The SNP have a major advantage in that they have a significant political presence already, with a leader who’s well-recognised UK-wide, and their standing in the election would be immediately newsworthy”
Perhaps if he was at the helm of a UK wide federation of autonomists and nationalists MK, PC, SNP and anybody that can be pulled in from England (either regionalists, greens or nationalists).
The SNP running in Berwick though…
#38 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 2:55 pm
It’s lovely to imagine northern English constituencies voting in a manner that would imply they’d want to come with an independent Scotland rather than stay with the rest of England. But the problem with running in the Borders is that even on the Scottish side of the border the SNP don’t do as well as they do in the rest of the country.
I don’t think there’s an SNP constituency MSP for any seat directly bordering England, so oddly they’d probably face greater hostility from the electorate than they would much further south. And in the north they’d also run into angry Labour voters, who tend to hate the SNP more than anyone.
#39 by IanH on September 7, 2011 - 3:27 pm
It is very striking that the yellow political map stops short of the border. I don’t think that it is a coincidence that the Scottish borders get essentially English TV which doesn’t cover Scottish news in any detail. For example Border television wasn’t going to broadcast the Scottish leaders debates, after a lot of protest they eventually broadcast them in the middle of the night.
#40 by lionel on September 7, 2011 - 3:04 pm
As a Welshman, I was about to be insulted at being labelled as a “region of England”, until I read on and discovered that you are bang on the money.
Whilst Salmond delivered a really progressive and exciting programme for government today, we in Wales can look forward to the radical and exciting policies of Carwyn Jones’ Welsh Labour of Bike paths and 5p plastic carrier bag charges. While the zombies troop into the polling booths, unable to vote anything other than Labour, because their Stone age ancestors did, then no, not a lot will happen here. We can’t even get full control of energy decision making because the Tories won’t let us.
Independance in Scotland and virtual self determination in N Ireland will leave Wales in a rather difficult situation, which given that 20 or so percent of our population are English settlers, could go either way.
#41 by oldchap on September 7, 2011 - 3:20 pm
Type your comment here
#42 by oldchap on September 7, 2011 - 3:22 pm
Blast, was sure I’d got that quote right. You’d never tell I used to be a web developer 🙁
#43 by Doug Daniel on September 8, 2011 - 8:45 am
I’m a developer too, and I’m still not 100% sure how to work the quotes on here. It defies logic!
#44 by Marcus Warner on September 7, 2011 - 3:33 pm
“the Welsh can to all intents and purposes be considered a region of England, comprising mostly 80-minute/roadsign patriots with very little appetite for even fairly trivial levels of devolution when it comes to the crunch at the ballot box.)”
Wow. I can only put down your comment to ignorance, because otherwise it must be comedy.
#45 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 3:55 pm
I see it as neither ignorant nor comedic. Scotland is quite regularly discussed and dissed in London; Welsh devolution/independence has never been mentioned when I’ve been around at work or out and about (which, to be fair, is getting less and less these days).
Wales is ‘to all intents and purposes considered a region of England’? – I don’t see anything wrong with that at all, and if it wasn’t true then why did Plaid Cymru get thumped at both the UK and Welsh elections in 2010 and 2011?
#46 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 5:57 pm
But you’re making the same mistake as the Rev in defining Wales as a region because of how they vote. Isn’t nationality about more than politics? Is Scotland just a nation because we voted SNP? Because that appears to be the standard you’re both using.
#47 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 6:50 pm
The bit you seem to be missing is “to all intents and purposes”. Sure, technically it’s a nation, country, principality, whatever. Most people would have to check Wikipedia to know for sure so is it really relevant?
What marks Wales as different to, say, Yorkshire or Cornwall when it comes to whether it’s an adjunct of England or a brave new world. Not much I would argue. And that’s not necessarily a criticism; to most people, and certainly many in Wales itself, it doesn’t seem a big deal at all or it would be higher up the priority list.
#48 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 7:12 pm
What marks Scotland as different to, say, Yorkshire or Cornwall when it comes to whether its an adjunct of England or a brave new world then Jeff? Why are we a nation and Wales “to all intents and purposes” a region of England in your book?
#49 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 7:24 pm
Well, a poll showing that more Scots favour independence than don’t helps. That Holyrood has significant more powers than the Welsh Assembly helps. That Welsh Tories advance in line with Cameron’s Tories while Scotland continues to return 1 measly Scottish Tory MP helps.
We can’t pretend that this half-in, half-out situation with devolution is in any way a lasting settlement but until we’re pushed over the line into something more lasting, we’ll always be an adjunct of England ourselves. Once again, I’m not necessarily saying that that’s a bad thing.
And England is similarly an adjunct of Scotland; we’re just smaller so that line doesn’t hold as well.
#50 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 7:34 pm
Well, you’re wrong about the Welsh Tories – especially in the Welsh Assembly – who are much more pro-devolution than their Scottish counterparts. But don’t let that get in the way of your argument.
But again, you’re using people’s political attitudes to determine geographic and political conceptualisations of place. Which I think is totally wrong. We’re more of a nation and less of a region because 39% of people want us to be independent? Last week would we have been more of a region and less of a nation because we thought polls said the opposite? I genuinely don’t get that argument.
#51 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 7:36 pm
How would you define “political conceptualisations of place” OTHER than by “people’s political attitudes”?
#52 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 7:38 pm
I meant geo-politically. As in, borders and political institutions.
#53 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 7:47 pm
Then to be honest, I no longer have any idea what you’re saying.
#54 by Aidan on September 7, 2011 - 7:41 pm
Independence is surely orthogonal to being a nation? Can we not be a nation regardless of our constitutional arrangements?
I also think devolution can be as lasting a settlement as any constitution is ever settled. The UK in particular is a very fluid, ever changing beast that’s never really settled at any stage since the Romans got here.
#55 by Anon. on September 7, 2011 - 8:00 pm
The Romans didn’t arrive in the ‘UK’, they arrived on the island of Britain. The ‘UK’ is the name adopted by the modern political and corporate entity which governs us, and only really started being used in the late twentieth century. The United Kingdom, of course, began with the Union of the Crowns in 1603.
#56 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 8:24 pm
“Independence is surely orthogonal to being a nation” – Not at all. The logical extension of a national identitiy is to take your decisions independently.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be that way and I’m sure many examples can be cited the other way.
I disagree with your assessment that the UK has always been in a state of flux. If we take the two nations (for want of a better word!) of Scotland and England, I would say that the real unsustainability began in 1999 with the new Scottish Parliament and a funding settlement that was one-sided (MSPs can spend it but don’t have responsibility for raising it?). Fiscal autonomy could work as a lasting solution but I doubt it. Scotland, as a nation, will probably ultimately need to decide whether it falls in line with being an adjunct of England or whether it has complete independence.
So, if the coming referendum is a No (which I think it will be), the problems will only be just beginning.
#57 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 8:47 pm
But you’ve kind of sidestepped the issue you raised – namely considering Scotland a nation and Wales not.
Also, as Aidan pointed out, geographic boundaries aren’t a necessary condition of a nation (as in his example of the Jewish Nation). Thus the independence of a certain geographic area to make political decisions for itself is, as Aidan said, orthogonal to the debate. That is, being a nation is not defined by being independent, nor is the desire to be independent a necessary condition for a nation to exist, or be defined as such.
That said, I agree with your take on the revenue spending versus raising funding settlement being an issue for devolution. Its not a factor in the debate about nations/ regions, but it will likely impact upon the constitutional future of the UK.
#58 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 8:57 pm
Not at all; I get that Scotland and Wales are both nations. Roll any professor into the room and he’ll explain why. However, “to all intents and purposes” Wales is not; what evidence is there today in the here and now to suggest that they are anything but happy to be sitting snugly in England’s bosom (metaphorically and geographically!). Scotland? The jury’s out while this National Conversation continues and while the polls remain in such a state of flux. We’ll find out on the referendum date.
#59 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 9:28 pm
Hang on. You accept that Scotland and Wales are nations. But you’re arguing that “to all intents and purposes” Wales is not a nation and Scotland’s “nationhood” is dependent on the outcome of a referendum?!
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it when we disagree – but for me those 2 positions are entirely inconsistent. If you “get” that Scotland and Wales are nations – based on the definitions argued by Aidan and myself – then how the definition of both as nations is subsequently dependent on public opinion doesn’t make sense? And I thought we had agreed upon the fact (though it may have been Aidan and myself that agreed) that the desire or not to be independent – or even obtain further devolved powers – does not impinge upon a nation being a nation.
Anyway, I don’t get it, is what I’m saying.
#60 by Jeff on September 7, 2011 - 9:47 pm
Malc, I don’t mean to be cheeky, but do you know what “to all intents and purposes” means?
There may be some archaic definition that dictates whether a land mass is a nation or not, but for me that’s out the window. Who cares. Scotland being a nation would mean a hunger for making our own decisions; whether we are there or not is currently not clear so whether Scotland is or is not a nation in a practical sense is, for me, still undecided.
For Wales, it’s a nation on paper, but not in practise.
If a Brit abroad is asked his/her nationality then he/she says UK; to what extent a Scot Brit or a Welsh Brit has the intent and the purpose to say Scottish or Welsh is an important factor. And that has everything to do with politics.
#61 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 10:01 pm
Well since you haven’t defined the terms of your argument, I don’t actually know what “to all intents and purposes” means. But then, I did know what orthogonal meant, so I probably get points for that. I was going to ask – what DO you mean by that?
We weren’t talking about archaic definitions. We were talking about internationally accepted, academic definitions of nationhood. And if that – for you – is out the window – then you are having a debate with yourself since it appears to not be “out the window” for the rest of us.
“Scotland being a nation would mean a hunger for making our own decisions” – to YOU that’s what Scotland being a nation would mean. That’s a different standard to me. And a different standard to most Scots I’d argue. You’re setting your own terms of a debate here, which makes arguing with you very difficult. Your conceptualisations of what a nation is, what it means to be a nation – well, they are just that: YOUR conceptualisations.
And I’ve never, not once when abroad and asked my nationality not said Scottish. The UK isn’t a nationality. Its a political entity – a state, not a nation, not a nation-state. And my response isn’t to do with politics or whether I’m pro-independence or not. Its a recognition of my national identity. Maybe in your conceptualisation of a nation, that’s a political term but for me its a cultural or ethnic identifier.
#62 by Aidan on September 8, 2011 - 10:58 am
See, I think it’s the cultural identity aspect of nationhood which is key.
There are parts of my cultural identity which I associate with being Scottish: Pakora; “supper” meaning “with chips” not “small evening meal eaten late”; crossing the border and feeling at home in the misty hills in a way I didn’t in Cumbria and parts I associate with being British: chip shops; queuing; chicken tikka massala; binge drinking; mawkish over-reaction to Diana’s death…
To claim that the Welsh don’t have a similarly strong national cultural identity is quite staggering really considering things like Welsh male voice choirs, the Cytûn, the position rugby holds there, the language, Dylan Thomas…
It’s arguably more interwoven with an English cultural identity, particularly along the border, as a result of the level of holiday home ownership and good train links to London enabling commuting (!) but it’s a distinct national identity primarily because the people who hold it identify it as a national identity not a regional one. Welsh people don’t think of themselves as English, and quite a few would brain you with a Brains glass (sorry, had to…) if you suggested it.
#63 by Aidan on September 7, 2011 - 7:39 pm
If you’re defining a nation with a distinct language, particular culture and a well defined, reasonably non-porous border I’d argue Cornwall is one. I’ll even throw in it’s history of rebellion. Mebyon Kernow regularly win seats, there’s a constitutional convention up and running… I don’t think there’s anything comparable in Yorkshire
#64 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 7:41 pm
I don’t have any problem regarding Cornwall as a nation. I’m all for Cornish devolution, and it declaring its independence if a majority of its population desire.
And I think your definition of nation is basically Gellner’s? Distinct language, culture, well-defined border – to which, add distinct institutions (religious, legal, educational or political) yes?
#65 by Aidan on September 7, 2011 - 7:49 pm
I think they’re all things which are useful for outsiders to define a nation, but I wouldn’t say that they’re necessary (borders can be hazy and disputed, languages can be shared between nations as English or Spanish is, or divide them like Scots and Gaelic do here). Having had a quick google I’d criticise Gellner for being too instrumentalist about it.
I think probably the primary consideration is whether the people of that nation conceive of themselves as belonging to it as a nation. If they don’t it doesn’t exist, or isn’t a nation.
I know Jewish people who do still talk about “the Jewish nation” and don’t mean Israel, but consider the diaspora to be a nation and that shares very few of those characteristics.
#66 by Malc on September 7, 2011 - 7:53 pm
I think the existence of those things (as in Scotland and Wales) is evidence of nations existing, but I agree they are not necessary conditions. I suppose where they exist they are indicators – they are sufficient conditions if we want to get technical. But I agree that a nation can exist if people think it into being. The Jewish Nation is a good example.
#67 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 7:54 pm
I don’t think even all of those are necessary. A well-defined border, inside which a majority of people have clearly and legitimately declared their desire to be an independent nation, is good enough for me. If the Cornish – or Birmingham – decide to go for that, good luck to them. Nations are fluid, languages are shared, culture is a matter of interpretation. Where are Prussia and Sparta now? (Rhetorical question, not geographical one…)
#68 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 7:57 pm
(Heh – overtaken by events while I was typing. Looks like we all pretty much agree on that one, then…)
#69 by Hendre on September 8, 2011 - 9:59 am
Can you be a nation in a technical sense?
No the principality stuff please. That’s just a piece of establishmentarian BS.
#70 by Marcus Warner on September 7, 2011 - 3:42 pm
Lionel,
I am not sure it does the situation justice. What is clear is that Wales is far more interlinked with England and swings politically in a far more English way. This is partially natural (we have a far bigger land border with built up cities on our border) and we have more English people living in Wales a percentage (I think).
Vasts swathes of the West of Wales are becoming second home holiday villages, North East Wales is being built on to supply Chester. I am sure issues exist in Scotland such as this, but in Wales it’s more acute.
The God man’s dismissal is silly because many of the nationalist victories are not merely about road signs. The very existence of any devolution, protection of our language and culture is far more than that single pithy comment. Welsh is seen as a beacon for indigenous languages that has fought back.
The latest referendum was a resounding yes, all the polls indicate that people want more and more devolution and it will keep coming via transfer and further referendums.
As a Welsh nationalist I am of course dissapointed that we cannot have the same as Scotland, but there are more social, political and culture reasons that is not so.
#71 by Marcus Warner on September 7, 2011 - 3:46 pm
Damn – forgot this other para.
The media in Wales is a joke, there is none that focuses on Welsh issues. This means that we have an electorate who probably understand ‘Cameron’s NHS Reforms’ as effecting them. We have a BBC that on the day we won the referendum they had wall to wall coverage on the Barnsley by election, a Question Time held in Wales with a question on John Terry shagging someone’s missus.
The point is that the Welsh electorate are the worst served for being informed on what is going on in Wales – that situation stifles our democracy and progress.
#72 by An Duine Gruamach on September 7, 2011 - 4:58 pm
It’s also a question of the focus of nationalism not being the same. People in Scotland (and, I am sure, elsewhere) often think of Wales as basically being a smaller version of us – traditionally Labour, former industrial powerhouse, significant left-nationalist parties etc.
However, the nationalisms are not the same, and judging the success of one by the criteria of the other is unlikely to be helpful. Scottish nationalism has focussed mostly on political autonomy, and is much closer to independence than Wales is (both in terms of the relative degrees of autonomy enjoyed at the moment, and the greater likelihood of full independence in the near-ish future). Welsh nationalism has of course its autonomist side, but its roots are really in language activism, and they’ve succeeded in making the Welsh language a much more high-profile (and much more successful) political cause in Wales than either Gaelic or Scots are in Scotland.
This is of course a simplification, but I think it broadly holds true for the priorities of the respective nationalist movements. If Saunders Lewis were alive today, I suspect he’d take the current situation in Wales rather than the chance for same situation as we have in Scotland.
#73 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 5:06 pm
“Welsh nationalism has of course its autonomist side, but its roots are really in language activism, and they’ve succeeded in making the Welsh language a much more high-profile (and much more successful) political cause in Wales than either Gaelic or Scots are in Scotland.”
I agree. “Roadsign patriots” is just a much shorter way of saying it, while meaning exactly the same thing.
#74 by Hendre on September 7, 2011 - 6:19 pm
A number of roadsign patriots went to jail for those bilingual road signs. It’s not particularly appropriate to band them together with 80 minute nationalists, of which there are, admittedly, quite a few in Wales.
#75 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 6:42 pm
“A number of roadsign patriots went to jail for those bilingual road signs”
Not for long enough, clearly.
#76 by TheCornishRepublican on September 7, 2011 - 6:57 pm
Yorkshire is not a constitutional Duchy with a sovereign other than the Monarch. Neither does it have a lesser used Celtic language or the right to its own (Stannary) parliament. Yorkshire has not seen collected a petition of 50,000 signatures calling for devolution gathered by activists also supported by opinion polls at over 55% in support of devolution.
Cornwall can claim all of the above and more.
Cornwall is a country and the Cornish are a nation.
#77 by Barbarian on September 7, 2011 - 7:17 pm
I don’t want to see the SNP active in England, and for one very good reason:
Not all the SNP candidates (in fact SNP MSPs) are of the same quality as Salmond, and some should not even be near politics.
Salmond could win an argument anywhere in England. But could Stuart Stevenson?
#78 by Rev. S. Campbell on September 7, 2011 - 7:49 pm
Isn’t that true of all parties? Hazel Blears springs instantly to mind for some reason.
#79 by Barbarian on September 7, 2011 - 9:45 pm
Absolutely, and in the case of the Lib Dems – all of them!!
#80 by Craig Gallagher on September 8, 2011 - 12:28 am
I would think that if the SNP were genuinely going to contest a vulnerable English seat, they would put forward a heavyweight to strengthen their hand. Use of strong candidates in marginals is one of the Party’s electoral strengths.
#81 by Britnot on September 7, 2011 - 7:24 pm
The British Isles is made up of several Celtic Countries at various stages of their evolution from British dominion. The gap between the Republic of Ireland and Scotland in regards to this journey is far greater than the gap between Scotland and Wales who like it or not are still part of the UK.
Likewise Kernow has a long way to go before it arrives at the position Wales is today. But I wouldn’t dream of commenting about Kernow in such a condescending and ignorant way. Wales does have some catching up to get to the stage Scotland is and in the same way Scotland has along way to go to catch up to Eire. Thankfully most Scottish Patriots that I know have a greater understanding and empathy for Wales than do you.
#82 by TheCornishRepublican on September 7, 2011 - 7:49 pm
What marks Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Ireland as different from regions of England is that these territories have their own observable and recorded national identities that differ from being English, British or some mix of the last two. Okay, the movement in Cornwall is not as strong as that in Wales and less so than in Scotland but then again Scotland sense of self is not as strong as that of perhaps Tibet, Palestine of Chechnya but it exist nonetheless.
#83 by TheCornishRepublican on September 7, 2011 - 8:08 pm
“If the Cornish – or Birmingham – decide to go for that, good luck to them. Nations are fluid, languages are shared, culture is a matter of interpretation. Where are Prussia and Sparta now? (Rhetorical question, not geographical one…)”
Indeed, where are Prussia, Sparta and Birmingham. In these territories people do not claim a distinct national identity. In Cornwall, Scotland, Brittany and the Basque Country they do. We either support nationalities in their drive to greater self-determination or we don’t.
I’m all for greater decentralisation and binging democratic power closer to communities and people but lets do it to peoples and communities that want it as opposed to carving out new territories that have no connection to the people that inhabit them.
#84 by RTG on September 7, 2011 - 10:02 pm
You could just as crudely dismiss Scottish nationalism as being about philistine money grabbing with little cultural dimension,with Scotland freely choosing to become England’s northern appendage and being quite happy with that before
the profits of empire stopped flowing in and the oil revenues started flowing out.
Of course, we all know that the reality is about far more than that and no informed person would subscribe to such an ignorant, blinkered view. Hence why it is rather sad to see the kind of North British equivalent of Southern Clarksonite chauvanism on display here from people who really ought to know better.
#85 by Anon. on September 7, 2011 - 10:29 pm
Indeed it is this very ‘North Britonism’ which was so wholeheartedly adopted after the later 18th century which led to the sort of cultural self-colonisation most typically expressed via the sort of linguistic purging still encouraged by the author of this article. And obviously these attitudes have a lot to do with the fact that we do not yet (I hope) live in a conventional nation state. The Reverend would to well to consider the link between imperialism, centres of financial and military power, and the dominant languages of the world. Is that a cause that he wants to adopt?
#86 by Craig Gallagher on September 8, 2011 - 12:39 am
I generally think this is article makes a good political point but is peppered with some ill-considered digs that others have worked over already, so I’ll largely leave them aside.
Except to say this: historically, the Scots – or at least their elites – willingly submitted their political autonomy for a share in England’s highly profitable overseas empire. At the very root of the Union is an agreement that Scots would do as the English Parliament – in which they were given a minority say – asked them to do, as long as the proceeds of colonialism and overseas mercantilism kept flowing northwards. This latter fact has self-evidently stopped, giving the SNP a certain degree of historical precedence to argue for a return of Scottish political autonomy.
The same cannot be said of Wales, which was annexed with little to no resistance by the Tudor monarchs of England. It would be better to compare any claims to her independence to those of Ireland, which was politically crippled by the Stuarts and then annexed by the Hanoverians in the early 19th century. Unlike the Irish, however, the Welsh did not have to endure a century and more of attacks on their identity and religion, and they never responded with such ferocity. As a previous commenter mentioned, Wales has always merged relatively seamlessly with England the further west you go in the country, which seems to me to be the reason Plaid Cymru started out as Welsh language enthusiasts, rather than asserting any historic claims to political autonomy.
#87 by Indy on September 8, 2011 - 7:55 am
The SNP’s argument for Scottish independence has always been politically and economically based – not culturally or linguistically based. Indeed I remenber being at a conference with different independence parties from across Europe and there was a big focus on culture and language issues as though they were central which rather bemused us SNP reps because that has never been the point for us. I am not saying cultural or linguistic issues don’t matter, just that they don’t matter politically.
The big breakthrough that happened for the SNP in the 1970s was not based on a cultural or linguistic argument but on an economic and political argumnent – it’s Scotland’s Oil. The Scotland’s Oil campaign is often dismissed as appealing to selfishness and greed, a little-Scotlander attitude. But that misses the point. There are a series of posters from that campaign in SNP HQ which are still very striking today. They were pictures of individuals, e.g. a pensioner with the wording underneath saying “It’s her oil. So why are X number of Scottish pensioners living in poverty?” Then there was a picture of an industrial worker with the words “It’s his oil. So why are X number of Scottish men unemployed?” And a picture of a 30 something woman with the wording “It’s her oil. So why are X number of Scottish families living on the breadline?”. (Obviously there were real numbers in there I just can’t remember what they were).
The message in those posters is absolutely central to the SNP’s message today, as much as it was in the 1970s. It’s about having control of our own economy and resources and using that control to benefit the people of Scotland. It’s not about the past or an attempt to preserve a particular culture or language – it’s about the future.
#88 by RTG on September 8, 2011 - 10:18 am
Perfectly valid points Indy, I would agree wholeheartedly with the argument that control over the economy to secure social justice is a perfectly legitimate basis for nationalism. In a Welsh context, Adam Price has been very explicit about this. But the salience of the cultural-linguistic dimensions of nationalism in Wales has never simply been about ‘preserving the past’ (the implication being that minoritised languages such as Welsh are static, moribund and doomd to die out according to some Anglocentric concept of ‘progress’ ) but about securing a place in the future on our own terms.
Fundamentally, it is a simple fact that Welsh nationalism has confronted a very different historical context to that found in Scotland and inevitably has had different priorities. Within that distinct context, Welrh nationalism has to be fair has had a degree of success in advancing those priorities. What was offensive about the original poster’s remarks was his unwillingness to accept that difference is just that, and not inferior or superior. Thankfully, many others on here do seem to be able to get their heads around that simple fact.
#89 by Indy on September 8, 2011 - 11:03 am
yes I agree – it’s a different country, different politics.
All nationalists are not the same,