The SNP are an anti-nuclear party, we’re always told. For instance, they’re notionally against civilian nuclear, although Jim Mather was happy in the last session to back an extension of their life in the last session. And opposition to Trident is billed as almost their second touchstone of policy, after the Holy Grail itself. In fact, some have told me that independence is primarily essential because there’s no other way to get Trident out of Scotland’s waters.
So what about nuclear-powered submarines? The Navy’s Clyde base is now expected to be home to 11 of the new reactor-tastic Astute class of sub, up from 5. As Rob Edwards reports today, the safety risks from these subs are growing as the cuts bite. Surely the SNP would be against this move?
In fact, their submission (word doc) to the UK Government’s defence review states “The decision to base the UK Astute class submarines at HMNB Clyde is a welcome one and is likely to see a significant increase in the number of personnel based there. The Scottish Government remains committed to supporting this through consideration of devolved consequences and a partnership approach to planning for example in terms of health and education.”
Seriously? This is about jobs? Each boat has less than a hundred crew, and supposedly costs around £1.3bn, but if you don’t think there are many more hidden costs there I expect you also believe the final cost of an additional Forth road bridge will be just £1.6bn. That’s a job creation scheme? We could have insulated every single home in Scotland for less money than one of these white elephants.
What’s worse, although they’re currently only holding conventional weapons, Lee Willett at the Royal United Services Institute thinks Astute might be the British military’s fallback Trident launch platform of choice. As he puts it, “Thus, it is reasonable to assume that Astute is big enough to carry strategic weapons if required, with the only changes to the hull coming in the form of the modular payloads. Perhaps Astute was designed with this eventuality in mind?“ Either way, SNP Ministers are laying out the welcome mat and apparently not asking any questions.
Obviously you’d expect a Green comment, as the only other anti-nuclear party at Holyrood, and here’s what Patrick had to say:
“The majority of anti-nuclear and anti-war Scots will be shocked to discover that the SNP are making the case on the quiet for more nuclear submarines to come to the Clyde, despite years of posturing in the opposite direction. SNP Ministers are yet again pretending you can have your cake while also eating it, just as they have done on RAF bases. There’s no credible way to combine a nuclear unionism – for the supposed jobs – with an anti-war nationalism designed to keep the activists happy. The truth is that nuclear submarines are exactly as inefficient at creating jobs as they are for defending Scotland, and it’s time the SNP started speaking with one voice on this issue.”
But more alarming for SNP Ministers will be the way the charge against their position has been led by one of their own – Stephen Maxwell, a former vice-chair of the SNP, who Rob quotes as saying: “On its current direction of evolution, SNP’s defence policy threatens to match the level of incoherence already evident in UK policyâ€, and that his own party’s policy “is clearly inconsistent with its declared policy of making Scotland nuclear-free†and “seriously compromising†the case for independence. That’s despite the official quote in Rob’s story again making that case – that independence is partly about a nuclear-free Scotland.
I bet there’ll be others at Holyrood thinking the same thing, even if most backbenchers are still afraid to speak out against the leadership. The joke is unavoidable – Alex Salmond’s got where he is today with some astute decision-making, but this looks anything but.
#1 by Nikostratos on September 11, 2011 - 5:28 pm
Given the snp are(snp leader says)
suffering from “paranoia, conspiracy theories, mental illness and downright stupidityâ€
who is to know! what they are up to
#2 by Barbarian on September 11, 2011 - 5:47 pm
Attack submarines are designed to carry nuclear weapons, normally cruise missiles which are launched from vertical tubes.
To be honest, if the UK is to retain a nuclear deterrent, they could do so with attack submarines. You do not need ballistic missiles to pose a threat to a would-be attacker, as we can see with Israel.
But political realities have hit the SNP now they are in government, as happens to any party. It is all well and good sabre-rattling your policies, but the economy and jobs have to come first. If they don’t, you can guarantee a return to opposition come the next election.
To be honest, despite all the talk, does the SNP truly believe that allowing nuclear submarines in Scotland, or nuclear power stations, would lose them that many votes?
I was speaking to a relative today who supports CND. However, given the current energy situation, she has no problems with nuclear power stations, since energy costs have now reached crippling levels (although nuclear ain’t any cheaper).
There will be more changes by the SNP while in government which may not be to some supporters liking, but that is a price to pay if you want your party in power.
#3 by Iain Menzies on September 11, 2011 - 10:11 pm
Attack Subs DO NOT carry nuclear weapons. the model of Tomahawk that UK Subs employ are non-nuclear, and its not a straight forward change the bit at the top to make them so. Moreover the UK doesnt maintain a stockpile of nuclear warheads that would be able to fit on the end of a tomahawk so there is no short term possibility of changing the mission profile of those subs.
As for the Israel point, its a red herring. The Israeli situation is very different, Any target that Israel would be looking to hit either has a border with isreal or is not far from. Some of the specs ive seen for the israeli cruise missles give them greater range than tomahawk but still less than a quarter that of Trident.
There was a report, well several, in the past few years that make the suggestion that Tomahawk would be a possible trident successor, but i havent seen anyone that isnt out and out anti nukes that thinks such an idea is anything other than totally nuts.
#4 by Brian Nicholson on September 11, 2011 - 6:03 pm
Another strange article on this site. Now we have the SNP being slated for supporting non-nuclear armed submarines because they might be converted to nuclear armed submarines. This is pure conspiracy theory and not worthy of this site.
#5 by James on September 11, 2011 - 6:10 pm
They’re already nuclear-powered submarines. Even if the RUSI are wrong (and I suspect they know a lot more about defence than you or I), I don’t want these risky white elephants in Scotland’s waters. And I’m surprised to see where the limits of the SNP’s anti-nuclear trumpetting are. Apologies for the double elephant metaphor.
Also, please do feel free to get your own blog if you don’t like what we choose to write about.
#6 by Gryff on September 11, 2011 - 6:45 pm
You can not like nuclear weapons, and not have a problem with nuclear power. Even if you don’t want either, you don’t want them for different reasons, the inadvertant distructive power or side effects of nuclear power are quantitively different to the intentional genocidal potential of nuclear weapons.
Being ok with nuclear power, even in a sub and wanting a Scotland free of WOMD is not inconsistent as such.
#7 by Iain Menzies on September 11, 2011 - 10:13 pm
I dont really see how you can say that the Astutes are white elephants. I may be jumping to conclusions here but i cant see grounds for that unless yours a) anti-military or b)cos they have nuclear reactors.
They are many things, but white elephants is abit of a stretch.
#8 by James on September 12, 2011 - 11:33 am
Just to be clear, there’s some mumping about my advice above that Brian could get his own blog if he doesn’t like the balance of stories here. I’m delighted to approve constructive criticism of the arguments made above, but if you want to debate what belongs on Better Nation or does not, please do so on your own blog.
#9 by RN Submariner on September 11, 2011 - 6:42 pm
Barbarian you clearly know nothing of British Attack submarines. Their TLAM are launched from torpedo tubes and they have no nuclear war head capability, even if the US variant does.
It is people like you with false information and reporting inaccuracies that cause the problems
#10 by Barbarian on September 11, 2011 - 7:21 pm
Thank you for that correction.
But next time try and be polite, arrogance gets you nowhere.
#11 by Observer on September 11, 2011 - 8:26 pm
I think you are being a tad picky here.
The SNP have said that they do not want any further nuclear power stations being built. However, being realists, they are going to get the use out of the ones which have already been built.
These nuclear powered submarines already exist, the SNP did not comission them, & it would be cutting their nose off to spite their face if they said they should not be allowed in Scotrish waters – they would look ridiculous if they said that, as these submarines do not carry nuclear weapons & thus are not in the same category as Trident. They are in the same category as nuclear power stations.
If there are significant H&S risks then that is another matter altogether, I think you are conflating quite a few issues into the one post.
#12 by James on September 11, 2011 - 8:59 pm
Well, that looks like loyalty speaking: I can’t imagine a Nat supporter welcoming nuclear powered British submarines to Scotland unless the leadership had already backed it.
#13 by Observer on September 11, 2011 - 9:37 pm
I’m not a nat James. I support independence but I think the SNP have some really bonkers policies & can act like total looneys on occasion e.g. Supreme Court issue.
However I think they would look utterly ridiculous trying to ban existing nuclear powered submarines from Scottish waters when they accept the existence of current nuclear power stations. It’s not logical.
#14 by James on September 11, 2011 - 9:40 pm
There’s a massive difference between trying to ban and welcoming..
#15 by douglas clark on September 11, 2011 - 10:48 pm
James,
Most folk are kind of against the spread of nuclear fission, which is currentlly used to power civillian electricity generation and attack submarines. There are good grounds for being against them, specifically on the waste disposal issues. It cannot have passed you bye that Rosyth appears to be the scrap yard for old nuclear submarines and the costs of clearing up Dounray aren’t even properly known? It is a disgrace, but it is manageable if we set our minds to doing something about it.
But whilst we all might be against that, it pales into insignificance when most of your population may be extinguished because we are ‘on point’ for the UK’s nuclear deterrent. You do know that, we could be wiped out, don’t you? Or what is your point?
Could you not educate yourself about frequency and scale of risk?
#16 by Aidan Skinner on September 11, 2011 - 11:14 pm
Honestly, if it comes to a nuclear exchange being “on point” for the UKs nuclear deterrent isn’t going to make a blind of bit of difference – the world is up a boiling creek with out the residual technology to understand a paddle regardless.
#17 by Mister Stan on September 11, 2011 - 10:50 pm
SNP Energy Minister said, in a recent debate on energy, that the SNP were ‘perfectly open to extending the life of Scotland’s existing nuclear power stations’. Anti-nuclear party, my arse!
#18 by Ben Achie on September 11, 2011 - 11:24 pm
It is perhaps germane to point out that submarines are, erm, mobile, whereas nuclear power stations are not. The health and safety issues with nucear powered subs do give some cause for concern, although how likely is it the number of the new class of attack subs proposed will actually be built?
#19 by douglas clark on September 12, 2011 - 8:00 am
Aidan @ 15,
At a MAD level, yes. At a lesser level, not necessarily. The US has apparently discussed a possible nuclear exchange between Pakistan and India and determined that it wouldn’t effect the US ré fallout. That is the Dr Strangelove world that our planners – based in London – make. It is why I want Trident on the Thames.
Perhaps your paranoia and mine have different metrics.
#20 by Dr William Reynolds on September 12, 2011 - 10:57 am
Regarding the suggestion that the SNP are encouraging more nuclear submarines to come to the Clyde,that is news to me.I certainly hope not.While Barbarian makes a valid point that being in government requires flexibility,I cannot see the SNP abandoning their anti nuclear stance.Of course there are limits to what a Scottish government can achieve.Since this is an important topic,I would hope that you would invite someone from the SNP to offer an explanation.
#21 by Indy on September 12, 2011 - 11:16 am
I think this is a case where the Scottish Government spokesperson has said something that is probably par for the course from a Scottish Government point of view but doesn’t really chime from an SNP point of view.
There have been a few cases like that. One that particularly caught my eye a while ago was when the Scottish Government defended giving the Census contract to a company accused of human rights abuses and the spokesperson came out with some line about nothing having been proven. Well it hadn’t been proven cos the case hadn’t been to court! As I understand it the company was arguing that they should be immune from prosecution because they were working for the US miliary – which rather suggests that there was a real issue there.
I suppose we could paraphrase Wendell Phillips and say eternal vigilance is the price of government – or maybe it is more that getting tha balance between the SNP part of the Scottish Government and the institution itself is not always a stroll in the park.
#22 by douglas clark on September 12, 2011 - 6:53 pm
Dr William Reynolds @ 20,
It would be news to me too.
Perhaps Aidan could explain his ideas. I find our chum James a bit off the wall too.
And, for goodness sake Indy, is it not reasonable to have a bit of a transition?
Well, isn’t it?
#23 by Indy on September 12, 2011 - 9:28 pm
I don;t have any issues with the substance of the submission. As things stand it is the job of the Scottish Government to fight Scotland’s corner in terms of defence expenditure and investment. I don’t have an issue with that. If there are jobs going, we want as many of them as we can get.
If there is an issue it is with the tone rather than the content. As James said it is a bit odd suggesting that we welcome nuclear powered submarines. But that’s about getting the tone right. And it would be quite difficult to say as long as we are in the UK we want these but as soon as we are not we won’t.
#24 by douglas clark on September 12, 2011 - 11:10 pm
Indy @ 23,
I really don’t understand the point you are attempting to make.
You are either against nuclear weapons or not. One of the reasons I am a member of the SNP is because I am against nuclear weapons and so are the SNP.
Where do you stand?
#25 by Indy on September 13, 2011 - 7:52 am
Eh? Who is talking about nuclear weapons?
#26 by douglas clark on September 12, 2011 - 11:17 pm
Frankly, indy, you’d be far better off in some sort of unionist bomb waving groupiscule that likes all our nuclear weapons being based hereabouts.
Rather than in the SNP.
Assuming that ‘indy’ means what it says on the tin and isn’t just a pretendy joke you are having with us all.
Is it, indy?
#27 by Indy on September 13, 2011 - 7:53 am
I don’t understand what you are talking about frankly.
#28 by Bella Caledonia on September 13, 2011 - 5:12 pm
I quite agree with the author.
There’s no place for these weapons in modern Scotland. We should get rid of them. For me this is the point of independence.
#29 by Observer on September 13, 2011 - 8:46 pm
”There’s no place for these weapons in modern Scotland. We should get rid of them. For me this is the point of independence.”
What are you on about? These are nuclear powered submarines; they have no nuclear weapons on board, & they don’t have the capacity to fire nuclear weapons.
What James appears to be saying is that the Scottish government should not be welcoming a submarine base in Scotland because they are nuclear powered subs.
I am sorry but I think the electorate would find that quite laughable.
#30 by Indy on September 14, 2011 - 9:02 am
They don’t have the capacity to fire nuclear weapons at present, they might have in the future which is why it is a wee bit dodgy to actually welcome them.
But in terms of SNP policy – it is very clear that we do not want nuclear WEAPONS in Scotland’s land, sea and air space. There is nothing in there about nuclear powered submarines.
#31 by John on September 16, 2011 - 11:06 am
The same could be said about almost any frontline fixed-wing combat aircraft, Sea Kings, ships and heavy artillery.