Most folk want the Scottish Parliament to have more powers, confirmed in recent polls. IPSOS Mori’s Scottish Opinion Monitor found that over two thirds want Holyrood to have full fiscal powers, while the Angus Reid poll found that 47% would support devo-max, that is more powers but staying within the UK.
The people are saying loud and clear what they want. So why aren’t the political parties listening?
Let’s put it another way. Which political party is offering people devo-max, that is, the Scottish Parliament having control over a wide range of powers but still remaining in the UK? Eh, that will be none.
Currently, the parties are polarised by extremes. The SNP advocates full independence, though there are suggestions that it might step back from this and seek an independence lite option. Such briefings and murmurings have yet – if ever – to be translated into official party policy.
The Scottish Greens also support independence but they don’t make a virtue out of it these days. And while the Scottish Socialists and Solidarity both advocate it, they are so far below the sightline of Scottish voters, their views are invisible.
All other parties have allowed themselves to be defined by their opposition to independence and/or their adherence to unionism. Towards the end of the last Parliament, there were signs of shift, in that the Scotland bill committee actually advocated more powers than Calman recommended. Yet, amendments transferring these powers to Holyrood were slapped down at Westminster. Is it little wonder that the Scottish people sighed wearily before rejecting them wholesale at the election in May?
One of the most entertaining and enlightening bloggers around right now is Ian Smart. Smart by name, smart by nature. In a recent blog, he declared himself a devolutionist and in his highly original, deprecating manner, he gets to the heart of the matter:
But defining devolution is for the devolutionists. Having seen off the Unionists on one flank there is no reason we should cede ground to the nationalists on the other. I am more than a little irritated by the demands of the SNP that we need to develop a different devolved settlement to enable them to put it as a fall back option in their legendary referendum.
And he is absolutely right. But let’s look at it in a slightly different way.
In recent years, voters have become less thirled to constitutional absolutes and more concerned with what works and what is needed. The SNP has recognised this and cleaned up in the voting stakes. By marching in step with people, at a pace of their choosing, by demonstrating flexibility in the route taken, it is currently happy to accept that the journey to independence is a gradual one. Even the noises off about downgrading the independence offering demonstrates its willingness to allow the Scottish people to lead the way.
The grand plan could still falter. What if the Scottish people get so far and say no further? The gradualist approach requires Scotland to reach a tipping point, where taking the final steps to independence become so ridiculously easy, the nation does it without really thinking, wondering all the time what the fuss was about. What if that does not happen? What if they look over the precipice and shrink back?
Moreover, at some point, the SNP are going to have to take the lead in this dance, if it wants people to vote for its goal, or even to choose devo-max. This means setting out the options, what they mean, in all their confounding detail, and taking people with them.
And a further potential problem is what happens if – when – one of the supposedly Unionist parties wakes up and smells the coffee, and abandons unionism in favour of devolutionism.  Again, there are promising signs, what with Murdo Fraser’s declaration of ripping it up and starting again in order to create a new right of centre party that advocates full fiscal powers for the Scottish Parliament. And somewhat ironically, the son of Westminster, Tom Harris, appears closest to getting it among the early contenders for the Scottish Labour leadership. And there are certainly devolutionists out there, like Ian Smart, who long for this to form a key part of his party’s narrative.
But essentially, the opposition parties are still talking about fighting the referendum campaign in terms of defending the union or making the case for the union. The response of the ancients in the House of Lords to the Scotland bill demonstrates just how attached they all are to the politics of the past.
They ignore the reality that the Scottish people have moved on and no longer want the status quo. They want more, considerably more in terms of control and powers over their lives and politics, if recent polls are to be believed.
And the longer they stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to what Scots are saying, the more the SNP can step gaily towards the referendum, and secure independence or at the very least, devo-max, and potentially another term in office.
#1 by John on September 13, 2011 - 10:27 am
Okay, not popular perhaps to do so but a little disingenuous not to mention the Lib Dems AT ALL.
No Steel Commission = no Calman = no debate on taking a centre ground between staunch unionism and whatever grade of independence is on offer at the time.
Recent proposal from W Rennie on Home and Community Rule may have been upstaged by Murdo, but is exactly on the ground you are looking for…
#2 by Gavin Hamilton on September 13, 2011 - 10:39 am
Eh – love them or hate them but isn’t that precisely the LibDem’s position both historically and currently?
#3 by Doug Daniel on September 13, 2011 - 12:08 pm
Tavish Scott’s gnashing of the teeth anytime independence was brought up during the election campaign merely served to make the Lib Dems seem every bit the staunch unionists that the Tories and Labour are, and Willie Rennie has thus far failed to do anything to destroy that image.
What have the Lib Dems done recently to give the electorate a reason to think they are any different from the other two and genuinely want Scotland to have fuller devolution, and that they are completely opposed to the status quo?
#4 by Gavin Hamilton on September 13, 2011 - 12:44 pm
Nevertheless that is precisely their position and that runs very deep with them.
They are however not nationalists and in Holyrood as opposition to an SNP administration there has inevitably been arguments against independence. Perhaps even more so as Salmond has taken a gradualist approach as he tries to step by step evolve Holyrood into a national government – that that is an end point of this particular journey is clear.
To argue against that is ok.
Steel commission, Calman, Scotland Bill are all example of the LibDems promoting the development of devolution.
Willie Rennie is also now getting involved in alternative proposals too.
As John said above it is a little disingenuous to not recognise this at all. I don’t know whether that just doesn’t fit with some people’s narrative or they just didn’t know or have never really engaged with what the LibDems argue for (rather than what someone else says they argue for). As John said, maybe not popular at the moment – but nevertheless that is their position.
#5 by Doug Daniel on September 13, 2011 - 2:51 pm
Is it their position though? The Lib Dems had the perfect opportunity to advance the case for devolution max during the previous parliament by going into coalition with the SNP and getting a referendum with a “devo max” option included on it put to the electorate. Instead, they decided that it wasn’t worth risking the chance that the electorate might go for the “wrong” choice of independence. However, we look at other things the Lib Dems supposedly traditionally stand for – nuclear disarmemant, free university tuition and proportional representation – and we see that all three were dismissed very quickly once Nick Clegg was offered the chance to be a wee pretendy important person. So you’ll have to excuse the Scottish electorate if they require more than words to prove that the Lib Dems really DO stand for something that supposedly “runs very deep” in them.
Calman was a Labour baby with the backing of the Tories and Lib Dems, and besides, it’s hardly anything to be proud of, nor is the resulting bill which may end up doing more harm than good to Scotland. As for the Steel Commission, what has it actually done to advance Scotland in any way? That’s all paperwork anyway – how many Lib Dem candidates actively promote the idea of giving Scotland more powers while they’re out campaigning?
#6 by romain blachier on September 13, 2011 - 10:58 am
Devomax ? The creation of very cosy terms to talk about politics is such a great british talent !
#7 by Doug Daniel on September 13, 2011 - 11:56 am
“But essentially, the opposition parties are still talking about fighting the referendum campaign in terms of defending the union or making the case for the union.”
Exactly, and I can’t see it getting any better. On Newsnicht last night, Sarah Boyack struggled to tell us what Labour actually stand for in Scotland, but Jim Murphy had no such trouble in telling us exactly what Labour’s sole purpose in Scotland is: winning the referendum. Labour don’t actually stand for anything; they merely stand against independence.
Politicians and supporters of the three unionist parties insist that the Calman Commission was proof that they are not simply stuck in favour of the status quo, but the fact is Calman was just an attempt to hinder the independence debate, and would not have come about had independence not suddenly become a genuine, imminent possibility. If they were genuine about wanting to devolve more powers, they would have made their case much stronger and louder. Instead, it’s been left to the SNP to try and salvage something from their awful Scotland Bill. If these parties truly believe in devolving things like borrowing powers, coropration tax and crown estates, why are they not busting a lung to outdo the SNP and scream from the rooftops that we need them?
By making the Scotland Bill a genuinely good piece of legislation with some teeth to it, and by making their own case for further devolution of powers, the unionists could have stolen the SNP’s thunder somewhat. But they are completely focussed on the SNP’s aims, not their own.
By defining yourself as the party of the union, as the three unionists seem to be doing, then you might as well stand up and declare that the world is flat, that man will never reach the moon, and that Scotland will never elect a majority SNP government. Few people are happy with the union’s current state, so the status quo is not a vote winner.
#8 by Indy on September 13, 2011 - 1:17 pm
Erm. If the Lib Dems want people to think they are open to Devo Max maybe they should have a wee word with Michael Moore?
#9 by James on September 13, 2011 - 1:24 pm
We Greens do make a virtue of our position on independence (which isn’t simply to agree with the SNP). We’ve been making the case for a participative process, for a proper Scottish constitution, all sorts. No-one else at Holyrood will do that as the referendum looms (very slowly).
#10 by Gavin Hamilton on September 13, 2011 - 1:55 pm
I think where this debate now sits is like this:
As The Burd says, at some point the SNP need to take the lead in defining what they are actually saying – whether that is devo-max, independence or a choice – in detail.
(I actually think that is all Michael Moore has, rightly, been getting at)
Also Ian Smart is right to say there are devolutionists and it is not just for the SNP to define a different devolved settlement unless the SNP are to become devolutionists themselves.
Looking at this another way, interestingly and perhaps without realising it, the policies of different parties may coalesce around devo plus/devo max.
The LibDems are there. The Tories, or some Tories, may be moving there. James points to the Greens wanting to have all party debate about this. Many in Labour are there, if they make it part of their narrative. And some Nats may actually be there as they explore what they mean by independence and develop what they feel can be implemented.
Indeed the polling The Burd highlighted suggests that while maybe a little more than a third of people favour independence many more currently favour some reform/advance on the current devolved settlement.
#11 by ReasonableNat on September 13, 2011 - 2:28 pm
“All other parties have allowed themselves to be defined by their opposition to independence and/or their adherence to unionism.”
That’s really the point I think. Their opposition to independence massively outweighs their ‘enthusiasm’ for devolution. The fear that devolution, and greater devolution, and devo-max, will just act as steps to independence causes them only to concede powers, along the way, when they feel they have no choice. (Combined with the fact that many in the unionist parties obviously would have preferred no devolution at all) this makes them, as bodies of opinion, look grudging and undemocratic. They are right in thinking that further devolution makes independence easier, but it doesn’t make it more likely; what does make independence more likely is their apparently grudging and undemocratic behaviour. It’s a horrible irony for them, and it’s a real shame because devolution IS the positive case for the union. The truth is that the unionists and the independistas both have valid points to make. No solution can give us ALL the benefits (or foist on us ALL the drawbacks of) independence AND union, but devo-max is one compromise that answers a very large proportion of the points on both sides.
What you are really asking though, is that the unionists set aside their fears and really trust the people to make the best decision, which on current polling should be easy for them to do. Unfortunately for them they’re politicians, and trusting the people with a decision, instead of making it themselves, appears to carry too much risk.
I find it odd that the unionists don’t seem to be seeing the bigger picture. We’ve had many decades of only very slow progress, and the agenda has been led entirely by the pro-independence movement, fuelling their arguments, in part at least, with that perceived resistance to our democratic desires. In the same timescale support from independence has similarly grown – and from the demographic data in every poll in recent memory, is set to continue on that path. The unionist parties have allowed themselves to sleep walk right into a checkmate position. Assuming the SNP hold the referendum in the form they suggested last year we’ll either have independence straight off, devo-max, or a ‘yes’ to devo-max and a unionist establishment in London refusing to implement it. I have no doubt what the latter would lead to – to my mind proactively offering devo-max right now is the only way out of this that can keep the union intact.
It’s as though unionism and strategic thinking are mutually exclusive 😉
#12 by Gavin Hamilton on September 13, 2011 - 3:08 pm
I don’t think you are right about opposition parties not trusting the people.
I think the opposition probably have spent too much time talking about independence rather than their alternative vision – although it is there if you care to look.
In part this is because there is SNP administration in Holyrood and that is their journey. This has defined the debate.
You may have a point about strategic thinking. 🙂
I think one of the problems is there isn’t really such a thing as unionism. They are a disparate group of three parties and people of no party.
Unionists are to me funny men in bowler hats or an old fashioned word for Scottish Tories who didn’t believe in devolution never mind anything else. Cutting the cake into Nationalists and Unionists is a Nationalist perception.
Maybe they (the opposition) are beginning to find a voice and I find language like devolutionist very helpful. I even find grammatically horrible phrases like devo-max and devo-plus helpful.
Also part of the issue has been the concept of the settled will of the Scottish people.
But I am sensing that there is an understanding that much of the argument is about making devolution work well or expanding on it – and that is what many people support or are interested in.
#13 by ReasonableNat on September 13, 2011 - 3:54 pm
While I agree with much of what you say there I can’t agree on the point about trusting the people. They wouldn’t allow independence on the referendum last time round and they’re only calling for an indy referendum now that it is inevitable. Even the electoral system was chosen with preventing an indy referendum in mind. This isn’t trust. Calman / Scotland Bill was never put before the people either, again, that’s unionist parties attempting to control the situation for their own ends, not putting their trust in the people.
I’d be glad to see devolutionists finding a voice. My preference is for independence with some sharing of resources, but I’d be very happy to see devo-max come about, not just because it could be a step towards independence, but also because it actually genuinely is so close to it that it deals with a lot of the issues that made me turn towards independence in the first place.
#14 by Andrew on September 13, 2011 - 5:04 pm
I agree that the labels of unionism and nationalism are unhelpful, however to accuse the ‘nationalists’ of creating this is a bit cheeky. It has always appeared to me that it is those who oppose independence who have tried to paint those who do as ‘nationalists’. The unionist label has since arisen as a backlash to that.
Regardless of the terms used and how people are categorised, there is a simple fault line on this issue: should power be devolved down from Westminster, or should Holyrood delegate power up to UK/international bodies.
While I agree that most people aren’t strongly minded on the independence/union debate, nor do I think most people are ideological devolutionists. I simply get the sense that people want their central government to be Holyrood and not Westminster. If we can do that in two ways, progressive devolution or the ‘big bang’ independence, then people will choose the devolutionary option as the path of least risk. It may have to be proven that the devolutionary option is not allowable by the UK government (of any type) before people can be persuaded to support the independence route.
#15 by tris on September 13, 2011 - 2:43 pm
I’m all for going down the road of gradually taking Scotland to statehood through Devo-Max. It has worked with Greenland so far, but Greenland doesn’t have a fatherland that goes to war at the drop of a hat.
That is my main problem: Scottish lads being killed in pointless (and sometimes illegal) wars so that English prime ministers can strut the world stage and pretend to be important.
#16 by Ken on September 13, 2011 - 3:14 pm
“It has worked with Greenland so far, but Greenland doesn’t have a fatherland that goes to war at the drop of a hat.”
You mean Denmark (fatherland) didn’t take part in the Iraq invasion then? Or Afghanistan…. or Libya…
#17 by dubbieside on September 13, 2011 - 3:24 pm
Burd
There was a Radio Wales phone in on “Should Wales be independent.
http://miserableoldfart.blogspot.com/
I was rather struck by the comment from one caller,
“How about turning the question around, Jase, Should Wales be dependent I’m at a loss to see why anyone would say that Wales has done well out of being dependent on the UK”.
The Lib Dems by their stance on Calman made them no different from the other unionist parties. Their position run so deep that it was invisible to the vast majority of the Scottish voting public.
#18 by Erchie on September 13, 2011 - 3:46 pm
The Calman Commission, like the Alcohol Commission, was a Labour tirade against the SNP thinking they were the Government just because of the technicality of some form of election or something.
They created these grand sounding commissions to set policy, the difference between the laughable Alcohol Comission and Calman is that the Labour Gov’t in Westminster joined in to come up with the Scotland Bill, a core component is the half-way house on tax that merely (a coincidence I am sure) but happenstance has the potential to screw up the earnings of the Scottish Government.
The Burd is being disingenuous however, the SNP are comfortable with DevoMax, or Devolution Pus as it is called on the Reform scotland website, as a step towards Independence.
The “Independence Light” nonsense is a miscasting of relationships between nations, for shared resources and renting out of facilities, much as Germany rents out to NATO and the UK to the US
I have heard of nobody in the SNP hierarchy actually proposing a semi-independent Scotland in the UK as seems to being claimed
DevoMax though is being seized on by Unionists desperate to try and put on the anchors, either “Rather this than all the way” or in a hope to fudge the vote hoping that somehow the vote is split and Status Quo wins the day.
At least no one is talking about reverting to Status Quo Ante apart from a few of the nuttier denizens of the Tory support down south
#19 by Gavin Hamilton on September 13, 2011 - 4:40 pm
Stephen Noon’s writings on his blog sound awfy close to semi-independence to me. Though I guess he wouldn’t use the phrase ‘in the UK’.
#20 by JPJ2 on September 13, 2011 - 3:53 pm
The LibDems have left it far too late to be of significance in the independence/devo max argument.,
Most of their voters who had an interest in devolution have now ceased to vote for them, so all they are left with are unionists who vote LibDem on issues which have nothing at all to do with the constitutional issue.
#21 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 6:19 pm
Sorry folks – just catching up with the comment thread.
Mea culpa, I had a line or two in about the Lib Dems and it got lost in editing. It was late….
But just after the election, Tavish came out and said Calman had to be updated and turbo-charged and a few weeks later some UK one said Calman and no further – they were pieces in Scotland on Sunday if you want to go find them.
I think though generally you are all still missing the point by definining everything in terms of unionism vs independence. When what the Scottish people say they want is devo-max. And the ones closest to offering devo-max are the SNP, because as Ian Smart says, it is their second string option. In response, the other parties pull back from devo-max and define themselves as unionists.
No one is actually completely in tune with most Scottish people – we don’t count I’m afraid as partisans and political anoraks – and the party that stands up and says vote for us, we love our Parly, want more powers to do good stuff but think that can be done while staying in the UK, wins.
I don’t think I have ever actually known a time when all the parties were so out of step with the views of the electorate.
#22 by Aidan on September 13, 2011 - 6:49 pm
TBF Labour is currently not articulating anything beyond “not independence” at a high level, and there’s quite a lot of folk such as Ian, Judith Fisher, Eric Joyce etc. who are advocating much deeper devolution.
#23 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 9:36 pm
I think there are many Labour activists who support devo plus or max but that isn’t the position adopted by your leadership. Who constantly trumpet the Union and a little bit more devo. This is one of the things that the review needs to thrash out. Just as the SNP sorted its constitutional position on many occasions, shifting to meet the realpolitik.
#24 by Aidan on September 14, 2011 - 12:12 am
I’m not sure our leadership have even gotten as far as adopting a position beyond random nat bashing, I think you might be being overly generous 😉
You’re spot on about needing to thrash this out properly within the party though, not sure if during the review is the right place or if the review should put the structures in place to do it. There’s an argument for swift clarity but the party isn’t great at having those sort of discussions right now…
#25 by Andrew on September 13, 2011 - 6:53 pm
Maybe no politician actually believes devomax _can_ be achieved within the UK, hence the hesitancyon behalf of the unionists. I certainly don’t think the SNP believe it can work, rather they believe it’s may be a populist plan B whose failure to be implemented by the UK gvt will still bring about independence.
#26 by ReasonableNat on September 13, 2011 - 9:40 pm
Ah, but it isn’t quite as it looks. The sixty-odd percent that say they want devo-max is only on a straight choice between that and the status-quo. Half of that sixty-odd percent represents the people who really want independence but would still vote for devo max given such a straight choice.
What is nearer to the truth is that about a third want independence, a third want devo-max, and a third want no change…
#27 by Angus McLellan on September 13, 2011 - 7:04 pm
The SNP need do nothing much about devomax. The First Minister’s position earlier, that it would be on the ballot if there was political support for it, is a reasonable one. But the opposition and Westminster seem to be resolutely opposed to devomax, and even more set against there being multiple ballots. Unless both of those things change in one or more of the Unionist parties it will be a single-question ballot.
Reform Scotland have contributed to the discussion by preparing a paper on devomax which is to be found here. Their Devolution Plus is less radical than the phrasing of the Ipsos MORI poll question, but it has some flesh on it. On page 9 of the paper there is a table setting out the proposed apportionment of tax raising powers between Westminster and Holyrood. Westminster would retain control of National Insurance, VAT, and various minor items, apparently including the Crown Estate. Everything else, which means Income Tax, Corporation Tax, Oil revenues based on geographic-share, and the rest, is to be devolved to Holyrood.
We need only look at the horrified responses to the SNP’s request that Corporation Tax should be devolved to see that there is a vast gulf between the devomax proposal put forward by Reform Scotland and Westminster government’s position. And Labour were, if anything, even more negative towards the idea when they were running things.
I can understand why the SNP would want to do nothing to discourage people from writing and talking about devomax in the media. It makes the status quo and, more importantly, any sudden conversions to the idea of a few more powers being devolved during the referendum campaign, look like poor stuff. The discussion gets people used to the idea, an idea which they think they like, that most or all taxes should be raised in Scotland, which is one less mental obstacle to be overcome in getting to Yes.
What I don’t understand and can’t explain, unless I presume that there has been a rare outbreak of speaking one’s mind among politicians, is why anyone outwith the SNP would be trailing the idea. The likes of John Major and George Foulkes must know that the Treasury and its allies would rather die in the last ditch than devolve these sorts of powers to Scotland. Very strange.
#28 by Indy on September 13, 2011 - 7:06 pm
There is something basically wrong with the way our politics works if the majority for Devo Max which appears to exist at present does not have a political voice to articulate that.
But I would also have to say that it would be quite unreasonable to put the responsibility of representing that body of opinion onto the SNP.
You know – geeza break! We are in this because we want independence. We are going to make the case for independence in the referendum. Yes, it will be a case for what independence really means in the 21st century along the kind of lines that Stephen Noon argues for. But make no mistake Stephen Noon believes in independence, as we all do. And I don’t think anybody should write off our chances of winning. As well as a strong belief in our cause we have the technology and we have the money – these things count when it comes to political campaigning.
But let’s imagine that the Scottish people do get to the brink and pull back and say no we are not yet ready for full independence. There does need to be a Plan B because the status quo is not really an option.
So we come back to the point of what is Plan B? If people want a more empowered Scotland but one which is still ultimately ruled by Westminster they need to start to build that case. Maybe it should not be political parties who take the lead on that or maybe they need some kind of body which fulfils the same function that the Independence Convention fulfils in relation to the SNP.
#29 by Aidan on September 13, 2011 - 8:24 pm
So, for the virtues of your argument you list that it’s strongly held and is well funded? (we’ll leave tech as function of money)
That’s really convincing that is…
#30 by Doug Daniel on September 13, 2011 - 11:03 pm
He’s saying those are the things that count when campaigning, i.e. when trying to get your message across to people as effectively as possible. He’s not saying those are the virtues of the argument itself.
#31 by Indy on September 14, 2011 - 8:31 am
No Aidan, I said that in addition to a strong belief in our cause we have the technology and we have the money.
But the basis of everything we do is a strong belief in our cause. And that cause is independence. It’s why we are in politics.
What’s your cause?
#32 by Aidan on September 14, 2011 - 3:05 pm
Essentially, my cause is what Neil Findaly points out here – a fair society the supports those who need it, when they need it, how they need it, that enables people to achieve their goals and a good standard of life for all.
I see all politics through that prism, as you apparently see all politics through the constitution.
I take it if you achieve independence you’ll leave politics then?
#33 by Colin on September 14, 2011 - 4:54 pm
That’s not really a cause, though. Or if it is, then so is something like “making the world a better place”. Virtually everyone would agree with the ends that you describe. What is disputed is how to achieve those ends.
#34 by Doug Daniel on September 16, 2011 - 9:29 am
Indeed. The Tories would probably try to tell us that this is what they strive for, and yet their policies suggest otherwise. But to them, the market dictates what is “fair”, and low taxes allow people to keep as much of their own money as possible to achieve their goals as they see fit and to provide a good standard of life for themselves. Now, I think we all know the reality is they forget that not everyone has the means to get by in this way without help from the state, but that doesn’t change the fact that they think they are striving for fairness etc.
Everyone gets into politics because they think they can make society fairer and cure social ills. The ways in which they think this can be achieved dictates which party they join. Even the BNP think they are trying to make a fairer society!
#35 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 9:34 pm
I am not suggesting the SNP moves to devomax (tho there are some suggestions that may happen…) you are right Indy, SNP is clear on what it stands for. But there is a wee bit hedging of bets going on which I’m not sure is helpful to persuading people. But at least SNP is awake to the political reality unlike the other parties.
#36 by DougtheDug on September 13, 2011 - 7:16 pm
Burd, I’d take issue with the idea that there is a difference between devolutionists and unionists. Ian Smart is a unionist pure and simple and whether or not he wants to have regional parliaments within the UK his overriding aim is to retain both a supreme UK parlimanent and a UK passport. Devolutionists and Federalists are just different flavours of unionist.
I find it hilarious that Smart by name, smart by nature Iain is annoyed with the SNP because they have said they will allow a second question about more powers within the union on the referendum ballot and expect the unionists to write it. Who else will write it? It’s not the SNP’s business to think up schemes to preserve the Union.
The big problem with devo-max or whatever the current buzz-word is today, is that it is unloved by both the unionist triumvirate of the Lib-Dems, Labour and the Tories because they are instinctively against any powers for Scotland which will make it easier to step to independence and it is unloved by the SNP who rightly see it as just a longer tether for Scotland within the union.
The much trumpeted tax powers in the Scotland Bill boil down to changing the current limit of the 3p in the pound variable tax rate power which the Scottish Parliament has never used to a 10p in the pound maximum rate which now applies to all tax bands not just the basic rate. The Scotland Bill is an example of the uncomfortable truth for those unionists who want more powers for the Scottish Parliament and the truth is that apart from tinkering, this is as good as it’s going to get within the Union.
#37 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 9:31 pm
Why oh why do you all have to be so disparaging and rude about people all the time? Can’t you just question someone’s analysis without personalising it. Youse are all cheesing me off. Big time.
#38 by A Cairns on September 13, 2011 - 7:26 pm
While I’m not opposed to certain extra powers I’m certainly a bit suspicious about ‘devo max’ because it has not been defined at all.
If it appears to be drawn on the bag of a fag packet with no public consultation I will vote for the status quo.
#39 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 9:30 pm
Which is another reason why devolutionists should adopt it. It did occur to me to try and define devo max when writing the post and then realised that no one had yet. full fiscal powers? some other areas of life? where’s the boundary? This is what Lab, Tories and yes, LDs should be working on as part of reviews and renewal. And sorry, James and Gavin I think it was. We don’t need another commission or convention or whatever. The people spoke loud and clear. Politicians should be quite capable of working out things for themselves.
#40 by ReasonableNat on September 13, 2011 - 10:03 pm
The SNP already had a shot at this. The document is still online, found by googling: “Scotland’s Future Draft Referendum (Scotland) Bill Consultation Paper”. The relevant section near the bottom describes it as:
“Under this proposal the Scottish Parliament would, with certain exceptions, be responsible for all laws, taxes and duties in Scotland. The exceptions, which would continue to be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament, are-
defence and foreign affairs,
financial regulation, monetary policy and the currency.”
#41 by Barbarian on September 13, 2011 - 8:01 pm
Labour and the Tories need to consider DevMax and stop continual opposition to independence. A bit more realism is necessary.
But the SNP at times seem to have let May’s result go to their head, and we are back to the “Scotland demands this, that, oh and make them large ones”.
The SNP need to consider that DevMax just may be the final settlement. It’s not that bad – oil money stays in Scotland but they have shared assets over defence. Nuclear issues can be kept separate.
DevMax is a necessary choice. If the SNP fails to get the desired result in a referendum, that could put back the whole argument for many years if there are only two options.
#42 by Doug Daniel on September 13, 2011 - 11:14 pm
It can work both ways though – if you include Devo Max, it will definitely win, because there are people who will vote for it just because it seems less scary, and when it becomes clear that the unionists are losing the argument, they will suddenly have a Damascene Conversion and start extolling the virtues of Devo Max, purely to halt independence. However, keeping it to two choices makes it far easier to keep the focus on why people should choose independence rather than the status quo. Devo Max could become an unnecessary distraction for the independence argument.
Besides, the SNP has every right to keep it to a two question referendum. The referendum was never intended as a multi-option referendum – that was just an idea floated in order to get the Lib Dems on board to support the referendum. There would be something quite satisfying (albeit a bit churlish) in denying that opportunity to the Lib Dems, effectively sticking two fingers up and saying “you had your chance last session – get it right up ye.”
#43 by Indy on September 14, 2011 - 8:44 am
Of course we have every right to keep it to a two question referendum but given the fairly substantial body of polling and research to show that there is, at this point in time, a majority for Devo Max or Devo Plus or whatever its called there is a strong argument that this option should be available.
Because the correct outcome of the referendum can only be the outcome that the majority of Scots support. Clearly over the next 2 or 3 years we think we can persuade people to vote for independence and I think we can do that, we shouldn’t fear having a third option on the ballot paper. But it would be difficult for us to simultaneously make the case for independence AND devo max. I think that is what the Burd is getting at – other people need to make that argument.
#44 by Observer on September 13, 2011 - 8:59 pm
As far as I understand it the third option on the referendum paper will be put there if there is a demand for it. My own view from a completely unscientific sounding out of various people I know since May is that people would jump at the chance of having more autonmy, but stopping short of complete independence (whatever that is).
I think the point the Burd is making here, & it is one I wholeheartedly agree with, is that if the Scottish political class as a body can’t get their act together & offer the Scottish people what I think they want as part of the referendum process, then they will have failed.
I will vote for independence, & who knows that may win, but at the time of writing I think more people want to dip their toes in the water, but aren’t quite ready to swim.
#45 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 9:28 pm
At last, someone who gets it. Thank you!
#46 by DougtheDug on September 13, 2011 - 9:42 pm
I’m not sure if the Scottish political class can be blamed for not getting their act together because that would include the SNP.
The SNP has always pushed independence as the only way forward for Scotland and has fought on that principle from the start. People know that the aim of the SNP is independence and fighting elections on that principle has taken the party from winning the occasional by-election to a majority in a parliament designed to stop majorities. If the SNP are not in tune with a large chunk of the Scottish electorate then the electorate have a funny way of showing it.
Devo-max and all its incarnations are a unionist solution to Scottish governance so it’s up to the the LibLabCons to come up with a solution to keep Scotland within the Union not the SNP. Independence as an aim has taken the SNP into two terms of Government in the Scottish Parliament so why change horses now.
You can’t just put a more powers option on the ballot paper if there is demand for it without spelling out what these powers will be and with the promise from all the parties who run the UK government at various times that they will honour the promise of these powers. That is not going to happen. Unless all three of the unionist factions can come up with a worked out transfer of powers to Scotland plus the guarantee that these powers will be transferred if the Scots vote for it then the second question won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on.
#47 by The Burd on September 13, 2011 - 9:52 pm
I think the polls show that many people who voted SNP in May do not support independence. The kind of complacency many SNP folk are displaying that a vote for SNP means a vote for independence is unhelpful. And the SNP is already talking about a devo max option on the ballot paper.
#48 by DougtheDug on September 13, 2011 - 9:56 pm
It doesn’t matter who puts a Devo-Max option on the ballot paper, without a detailed description of what powers will be transferred and a promise by the Westminster parties to implement it, it will be worthless.
The SNP cannot implement any non-independence option on the ballot paper. In the Union that power is reserved to Westminster.
#49 by Barbarian on September 13, 2011 - 11:01 pm
That comment is (along with the article) the most sensible one I’ve seen since May.
I know a lot of people who switched the SNP because they were doing a good job in government. There was a positive approach, and yes there were the odd hiccups and one cockup (Stewart Stevenson I’m afraid). Many said they wanted to give the SNP another run at government and see how things pan out.
Recent polls show independence at about the 40% mark. It’s not enough, and the opposition did as much to lose the election and the SNP did to win it.
The election result was stunning, but independence was NOT pushed during the campaign.
Here in cyberland we tend to get a bit isolated from the bulk of the population. Most people access the Internet but I’d argue not many haunt political blogs.
Independence is still a step into the unknown for many. When it comes to the crunch, sometimes the fear factor will kick in and people will say “perhaps later”.
DevMax gives the option to taste more power. It’s not a unionist solution, since economic control will almost certainly be lost by Westminster. That might be enough to destable the union in the longer term.
#50 by Angus McLellan on September 13, 2011 - 11:47 pm
It is generally accepted that Scotland has the right to independence if the people ask for it. But nobody has ever suggested that we have the right to tell the rest of the UK that it must order its affairs to suit us.
Don’t English, Welsh and Northern Irish voters have the right to be consulted too when it comes to remaking the UK? If that’s conceded, then surely it must also be accepted that the only government which has any business holding a referendum on a devomax-style settlement is the UK government.
#51 by Indy on September 14, 2011 - 8:53 am
But look at it from our point of view – we first proposed putting a third question on the ballot paper ages ago, we even suggested the question. We’ve bent over backwards to enable a multi-option referendum, we have absolutely not tried to polarise the debate and say it’s independence or the status quo because that is not the reality of the choice which exists.
If there is no movement on devo max, there could be an argument indeed for holding a referendum which lists all the powers which are currently reserved and asking people which ones would you like the Scottish Parliament to control. If you support independence you would have the option to tick all. It would make for a hell of a complicated ballot paper but if there is no majority for independence by that stage at least it would give us clarity in terms of what the Scottish people actually want.
#52 by dubbieside on September 13, 2011 - 11:14 pm
Burd
All the people who voted for the SNP in May voted for sensible government that would continue to strive to make Scotland a better place. They saw what the SNP had achieved with a minority government and they liked the results. One of the major vote winners was the council tax freeze, which Labour obviously picked up on, which would explain the late policy change.
The SNP now have about three years of majority government to continue the drive to improve Scotland. As the gap between Scotland and England continues to get wider in areas like health, education and welfare as the torys continue to do what torys do. We are even at the stage that The Guardian have articles that Scots are starting to feel pity for the state of England,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/09/ian-jack-scotland-pity-for-england
cant say I have noticed that myself, but interest that they think this is happening.
Once the boundary changes go ahead, and with it the increased chance of yet another tory government that Scotland will never vote for, the case for independence as opposed to dependence on a tory government will increase as the referendum nears. Will it be enough to secure independence? at this stage no one knows, but I know which side of the argument that I would rather be on.
The policy of the SNP is “stead as you go” that is not complacency, that is sensible government doing what achieved the first every majority. Maybe the kind of complacency that many Labour/Tory/Lib Dem people are displaying that a vote for them means a vote against independence, is unhelpful to their cause.
Personally I cannot wait to see Cameron/Fraser, Miliband/a n other and Clegg/Rennie all appearing together and supporting the dependency cause.
P.S. The only person that I have heard claim that a vote for the SNP in May was a vote for independence was Tavish Scott.
#53 by Marcus Warner on September 14, 2011 - 1:41 pm
It’s interesting reading this from here in Wales. It’s interesting because the Scottish devolution was simply put on the front foot compared to Welsh – we were told ‘you get nothing BUT these limited powers’, whereby in Scotland you were told ‘you get everything but these powers’.
The question for unionists I think is that what type of Devo max makes it look like a long term solution. I am not a unionist, but if I was I would define it as…
Everything but defence and currency. You could defend that on the basis that unless Scotland wants to join the Euro, then being linked to sterling is not only not big upheaval, but also a pretty stable long term solution. I don’t think the SNP would be demanding to leave sterling at the moment for example.
Defence might be a bit trickier, but I am sure a Scottish veto on Scottish troops being sent to war could surely be arranged?
to be fair that’s not too different to this from the SNP
““Under this proposal the Scottish Parliament would, with certain exceptions, be responsible for all laws, taxes and duties in Scotland. The exceptions, which would continue to be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament, are-
defence and foreign affairs,
financial regulation, monetary policy and the currency.â€
But it does potential feel more final, admittedly it might frey if we have economic collapse or another bloody war, but it does feel a bit more final.
Essentially the unionist surely must accept that indepedence on all domestic policy bar things that are federalised in supranational groups all over the world (Defence has NATO, the Euro) is the best they could offer. In fact it could make the link between the EU and the new ‘British Union’ – independent nations with a federalised coming together on certain issues.
#54 by Keef on September 15, 2011 - 8:25 am
Having read most of the comments above I am still left with the very basic questions unanswered.
The French have Independence and are free to make their own policies. The mistakes they make are their own.
The Germans have Independence and are free to make their own policies. The mistakes they make are their own. The same can be said for all indpendent nations across the world.
1.Why can’t all the arguments above in so much as policy be made in a free and independent Scotland?
2.Why would any free thinking human being feel the need for an unbalanced union to make their decisions/policies?
3.Why are the people who support the union unable to list a mere 10 (ten) benifits that truly do benifit Scotland being in this union.?
4.Are these people so far brainwashed by the biased coverage of the MSM that they are only able to chant the mantra of no independence, but are unable to say why?
#55 by Angus McLellan on September 15, 2011 - 4:24 pm
The Prime Minister has assured us that devolving oil taxation is a stupid answer to a stupid question. But without oil taxes and corporation tax there’s no way you can have anything resembling devomax. End of?
#56 by Nicola on September 17, 2011 - 8:28 am
The language of unionists/nationalists is strange. Labour are devolutionists, Lib Dems are federalists and the Conservatives, who knows what they want. The problem is none of them shout about it because they are too busy shouting about things like the NHS, education, economy etc. which some would argue are more important but they are always going to be issues.
I think part of the problem is that in order to defeat nationalism, they are joining together and ignoring differences in how they see the UK, rather than setting out alternatives.
I’m going to start off a blog that tries to put forward a positive case for the union (not sure whether I’ll succeed) but I asked on twitter for names of such a blog and one person replied that the idea that there is a positive case was beyond her understanding.