The latest round of budget manoeuvring is seemingly already underway with the SNP firing an opening salvo towards London in a bid for the Treasury’s purse strings to be opened up a little bit more. With a belief that the UK coalition is cutting to deeply and too quickly and John Swinney afforded little flexibility in the block grant that he has available to spend, certainly this side of the Scotland Bill dawdling through Westminster right now, one can understand why the Scottish Government is keen to increase its spend. The key argument though appears to be something that is called ‘plan MacB’. I don’t know if this is a name given to the plan by the First Minister himself or a hackneyed branding by the media but, either way, it seems to involve recognition that Scotland’s economy and employment is currently outpacing the rest of the UK and that is largely down to the advanced capital spend in the current year’s budget.
Now, we can’t keep on continuing to spend tomorrow’s budgets today, that’s how we got into this mess after all, but there is certainly an argument for keeping the economy going while the volatility in the markets continues (and, despite my being on holiday, I did see that the FTSE has been battered down by 2% in this morning’s trading).
Now, forgive my basic understanding of ecnomoics but I understand that there are two opposite ends of the strategy spectrum. At one end is to spend less, hope the private sector fills the gap and save money in order to pay down the debt and/or deficit. At the other end, we could spend more and invest more in order to keep employment high, growth high and risk money that we don’t really have in order to bring in bigger tax receipts and keep the economy moving.
It’s fair to say that Scotland voted for the latter when they largely backed Labour in 2010 and they backed the latter again in 2011 when they largely backed the SNP. George Osborne and, by association, the Liberal Democrats have backed the former strategy which was working well for a while but has gone off the rails somewhat over 2011, whether you wish to blame snow and strikes or not.
Opposition politicians talk about the grudge and grievance of the Scottish Government’s positioning when they disagree with Westminster and I heard Alastair Carmichael make the tiresome soundbite ‘they’re not a Scottish Government, they’re a national embarrassment’ yesterday which is just nonsense really, just words. However, in this instance, it is surely the case that, despite limited powers, the SNP’s pointed deviation from London’s direction is to be welcomed and while there is something of a cross-your-fingers punt at play here with Salmond’s decision, a bet that backs jobs and economic stability and less cuts is surely the one to go for.
That said, I do still worry, a worry that I had before the election, that the SNP is regularly committing to spending money that doesn’t exist and when the flush is busted, London will get the blame but it will be Scots that suffer. It remains to be seen whether this will be the case in the years ahead but a narrative that involves spending more money rather than addressing the painful cuts that will probably need to be addressed at some point, while squaring off the SNP’s manifesto pledges, will be a difficult act.
However, at a broadbrush level, there is little doubt that Scotland has a preference for Salmond’s strategy rather than Osborne’s and I think it won’t be long, whether through convincing arguments, fiscal autonomy or A.N.Other, before the unfortunately entitled ‘Plan MacB’ is simply called Scotland’s ‘Plan A’.
#1 by Aidan on September 19, 2011 - 11:01 am
The SNP haven’t actually deviated from Osbornes economic plan – they persuaded the Treasury not to reduce their block grant in an election year but that means the same cuts happening over 4 years, not 5.
That may actually turn out to have been a mistake if we have to cut much harder than the UK as a whole just as we enter a 2nd recession, but I’m not claiming any special foresight there.
However, the SNP have a number of options available to them to increase revenue but have chosen not to take them. In fact, most of what they seem to want to do is to reduce the tax take through reducing corporation tax, maintaining the council tax freeze, reversing the north sea oil levy…
In fact, I can’t think of one policy lever the SNP are demanding that they would use to increase revenue or maintain government spending beside the ability to borrow more for capital expenditure while simultaneously banging on about Labour profligacy etc.
Simply demanding more money from Westminster to fulfill promises they knew they had no way of funding is all the SNP seem to be doing to me. I guess we shall see this week..
#2 by DougtheDug on September 19, 2011 - 11:20 pm
The SNP haven’t actually deviated from Osbornes economic plan…
I thought that was the Labour plan for Scotland Aidan. Better Tory rule and and Tory public spending cuts passed along via the Barnett formula than independence. If you remember the block grant the Scottish Government has to play with is derived directly from Tory spending plans in England.
Perhaps you can enumerate the options open to the SNP to raise revenue. The SNP can raise the basic rate of tax by 3p which places the tax burden unfairly on lower tax payers or they can raise the non-domestic business rate poundage or they can let the councils raise the Council tax rate. However both these latter options leave the money with the councils not with central government.
As far as I’m aware the north sea oil levy goes straight to Westminster and bypasses Scotland entirely so it does not materially affect the finances of Scotland while hitting jobs and investment in the North Sea
#3 by Indy on September 20, 2011 - 8:28 am
The SNP have a number of options available to them to increase revenue and they are taking the option of trying to get control of the 90 per cent of Scottish revenues which are controlled by Westminster.
Your position appears to be that we should just forget about the 90 per cent and concentrate on how we can squeeze more out of the 10 per cent of revenues controlled by the Scottish Parliament, presumably by putting up council tax, Labour’s preferred way of raising tax.
Well that is not going to happen and the debate has moved on from that point anyway. Perhaps everyone who voted SNP did not vote for independence but they voted to consider independence, they voted for movement and change.
Post-election Labour and the Lib Dems have talked a lot about becoming part of that debate but when it comes down to it you haven’t really made the mental shift because you maintain the self-denying ordinance that all the Scottish Parliament can do is fiddle around with the very limited economic powers that it has rather than controlling the actual economy. It is you that doesn’t want Scotland to deviate from Osborne’s economic plans because it is you that wants Osborne to go on running Scotland’s economy. Stronger together, weaker apart eh?
#4 by Aidan on September 20, 2011 - 12:55 pm
No, my position is that:
a) Scotland needs more powers over tax and spending
b) Scotland won’t get those tomorrow, it’s simply not possible
c) even if Scotland did get all those powers tomorrow, stated SNP policy is to use them to reduce taxes which means less spending and more cuts
d) there are other options currently available which would represent a deviation from Osborne’s policy, but the SNP refuse to use them (and, in the case of the SVR, have put them beyond use).
#5 by James on September 20, 2011 - 2:27 pm
And this is where my co-editor and I shake hands up to the elbow.
#6 by Aidan on September 20, 2011 - 5:10 pm
I thought we agreed not to mention the secret handshake…
#7 by DougtheDug on September 20, 2011 - 3:17 pm
Aidan, what are the other options to raise revenue apart from abandoning the agreement to keep police, education, personal care and Council tax at government set levels, raising the business rates and putting up the SVR by 3p? Since you believe that the block grant in Scotland should be set by the Tories what additional taxes do you want to impose on Scotland to make up for the shortfall?
Of course, that 3p rate increase is not possible because HMRC made a decision to upgrade their systems in 2008, demanded £7 Million from the Scottish Government in 2010 and the new systems won’t be ready to collect the SVR until 2012/13 at the earliest. Strangely enough there was no amendment in the Scottish budget in 2010 proposed by the Labour party or the Greens to pay this £7 Million to get the systems working by 2013.
Scotland is locked into Osbornomics because we’re run by the Tories, a state that the Labour party fought to retain in 2011.
#8 by Aidan on September 20, 2011 - 5:09 pm
2012/2013 is the next tax year, which is the earliest you could change the rate anyway and is what the coming budget is dealing with… or are you saying we’re too wee and too poor to raise our own taxes?
And, fundamentally, what of the block grant? If you think the Scottish government should get more money should it not be Scottish people that pay for that? Or do you think we should be subsidised?
#9 by DougtheDug on September 20, 2011 - 5:38 pm
“or are you saying we’re too wee and too poor to raise our own taxes?”
Certainly not Aidan, but unlike you I want all taxes raised and spent in an independent Scotland and not to be reliant on a Tory controlled block grant which cannot escape the Tory agenda of slash and burn in England.
The Tories are cutting public services to the bone in England your response is to just sit there and take it via the block grant and to try and make up the shortfall via domestic and business taxation without having levers of power to grow the tax base by improving the economy. The SNP have a route out of that impasse that Labour refuse to contemplate.
Do you have any figures on how much the Domestic Rates and Council Tax would have to rise to fill the hole in the Tory block grant? How much would they have to rise to stop us demanding to be, “subsidised”?
#10 by Aidan on September 20, 2011 - 6:30 pm
“not to be reliant on a Tory controlled block grant which cannot escape the Tory agenda of slash and burn in England”
Scotland isn’t, it has some (limited) powers to raise it’s own revenue.
The SNP route out of that impasse is… what? Independence? In 10 years time? That’s great that is…
And you put subsidised in quotes. What other would you use to describe getting more money out than we put in?
#11 by Indy on September 20, 2011 - 10:43 pm
Have you read Dcomerf’s very sensible comments below?
(Sensible comments, weird name).
You have got to stop thinking of hard pressed households as cash cows. People are skint, wages are frozen or being reduced but prices are going up and mortgages have to be paid. And you want to put their tax up on top of everything else.
Have you never heard that phrase the squeezed middle? I thought it was a Labour mantra these days.
#12 by Aidan on September 21, 2011 - 11:18 am
Yes, firstly Scotland is not a closed economy.
Secondly, there are a number of options for taxes on businesses.
Thirdly, how is what you’re proposing different to Osbornes plan? Or are you, like so many in the SNP, using “defending against Tory cuts” to mean “passing on in full”?
#13 by DougtheDug on September 21, 2011 - 8:51 pm
1. Very true but it is a very closed block grant. What we need is full control of our economy in Scotland.
2. Yes, that’s true. The SNP have just proposed a “Tesco” tax again on the huge supermarket companies.
Not that that was acceptable to Labour last time who voted it down.
However this time this business tax will go through despite Labour’s, the Conservatives’ and the Lib-Dem’s eagerly accepted donations from the big supermarkets.
3. Since the Scottish Government’s revenue options are limited are you saying that there is a way to bypass the Tory controlled Block Grant?
#14 by Aidan on September 21, 2011 - 9:09 pm
1. That doesn’t make any sense. A block grant is a lump of money, not an economic system.
Dcomerfs comments are only applicable to a zero-sum economy, with no inflows or outflows. That blatantly is not the case in Scotland. The rest is dependent on that assumption.
2. Yep, pretty pleased with the health levy, it’s a good move from Swinney.
3. Yes, by raising revenue as outlined in 2.
#15 by An Duine Gruamach on September 19, 2011 - 11:25 am
Does anyone know if there are plans to re-introduce the Tesco Tax?
#16 by ratzo on September 19, 2011 - 1:08 pm
According to the FT and the Telegraph today, Osborne’s plan is in ruins:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielknowles/100105623/if-the-ft-has-got-its-numbers-right-george-osbornes-political-strategy-lies-in-ruins/
#17 by Ben Achie on September 19, 2011 - 1:34 pm
For purposes of clarity, it has to be Plan MacB, and clunky though that is, it gets the message across. The message being that prudent European social-democracy does exist elsewhere beyond Scandinavia.
Compared with south of the border, our SNP government has done wonders here with the resources available, simply by applying commonsense and some imagination combined with experience of real life and work, rather than listening to a bunch of utterly discredited bankers and their acolytes who are simply rolling in dough and mired in privilege.
SNP policy hasn’t been spend, spend, spend, but is very focussed on capital investment so as to maintain private sector confidence, confidence being the key word in maintaining economic growth.
The other Scottish government priority is job security in the public sector, but that can only be maintained if employees accept a pay freeze (the SNP is doing its best to defer an increased employee’s pension contribution, although, compared with the private sector, public sector pension provision is fantastic value to the recipients).
The public sector is crying out for reform, and it is still a quagmire of inertia, complacency and vested interests – not least teachers with their McCrone settlement’s vast pay increases which have delivered nothing, or doctors, who are still laughing all the way to the bank with their massive earnings on the one hand including tax breaks as contractors, while receiving index-linked public sector pensions on the other.
The SNP, while getting radical on police and fire services reorganisation, are taking a more incremental approach elsewhere, although the excessive number of boards (with some incredible salaries revealed, despite the secrecy) in the NHS must be chopped, and all our 32 local authorities should really try and do more than pay lip service to joint working.
Roll on John Swinney’s announcements this week. When the Westminster U-turn does arrive, as is almost inevitable, remember that when Plan A gets “amended” (they are already talking about its apparently inbuilt flexibility!) it will have more than a hint of tartan. All Alex Salmond is doing is getting his claim in first for recognition of his government’s perspicacity!
#18 by Jeff on September 19, 2011 - 6:07 pm
Well said that man. Agree with all of that Ben and I daresay is the main reason for the reward of a majority Government.
(kudos for perspicacity; a new one on me)
#19 by cynicalHighlander on September 19, 2011 - 8:22 pm
A tale of two labour markets
Reading beyond the bias, all the story really is about is that given the failure of the UK economy to sustain growth in the face of harsh fiscal austerity, the SNP have updated their economic strategy which was released in 2007 before the crisis. The new strategy is more modest and defines new industrial strategies (green economic development). My reading of both documents (the initial strategy and the updated one) is that: (a) the first strategy was caught up in the credit-binged growth rhetoric – using Ireland and Iceland as models for small economies; and (b) the second one is a reality check given the collapse of the global economy and the imposition of fiscal austerity by the British government.
#20 by James Morton on September 19, 2011 - 1:48 pm
The problem with plan A is that a lot of the private sector has become reliant on public subsidy in one form or another. If you cut public services and expect the private sector to step in, its on a costs plus basis.
We don’t have the manufacturing infastructure that we once had – we have become ever more reliant on the finance sector, which is now massively propped up by the public sector bailouts, So without a massive injection of public money there is little prospect of rescue from the private sector.
The only option left to Osborne is to embrace the enterprise zone and subsidise job creation through tax breaks and the state paying for the building of the infastructure to be utilised. The record for this approach is very patchy. They could always introduce the training schemes that could take claimants off the unemployment rolls and give them “training” by paying companies to take them on as they did with YOPS, TOPS, Community Progamme, Employment training etc etc.
So really the options are to intervene – while pretending you aren’t and keeping the money spent off book as they do with PFI. Or choose to do nothing and hope for the best. The latter appears to be Osbornes plan A.
#21 by Jeff on September 19, 2011 - 5:45 pm
To be fair, Osborne has pledged to introduce Enterprize Zones though I agree with you that they have a very patchy record indeed. Worth a go though. As you say, standing back and doing nothing isn’t really a viable option given how key a stakeholder the Government is in all of this, they just have to pick the right ways to get involved. The SNP seems to want to focus on capital spend which does seem to be working up to now; I’m not sure if building your way into growth is necessarily always the answer though, although when social housing is so scarce and projects exist to be embarked upon, I reckon it’s a good strategy here. And hopefully the powers that be at the Treasury will see it that way too.
#22 by Doug Daniel on September 20, 2011 - 11:05 am
Am I the only one who gets images of South-East Asian & Central American sweatshops whenever they see the term “enterprise zone”? Especially when you consider the Tories’ hatred for human rights legislation and love of deregulation.
#23 by dcomerf on September 19, 2011 - 4:44 pm
OK Jeff, I’ll forgive your basic understanding of economics – but allow me to correct you somewhat:
It was not governments spending tomorrow’s budgets today that got us into this mess, it was households borrowing too much on the back of rising house values. The debt problem almost everywhere (Greece is the notable exception) is a problem of excessive houshold debt not government debt (Ireland and Spain became a problem of government debt when their governments guaranteed the private debt that was in the banks).
The solution to the mess is for the conditions to be created that allow households to repay their debts. Government cutbacks do not help this process. More fundamentally, consider a closed economy (i.e. no imports or exports) and a household sector that wants to reduce its aggregate debt level (i.e. the subsection of households that are seeking to reduce their debts is greater than the subsection of households willing to increase their debts) then the only way that this can occur is for government to increase its debts (since these debt flows are just an exchange of IOUs and for every household that decreases their net debt, there must be another agent that increases their net debt).
Even more simply, if you owe your brother a tenner then your net worth is -10 and his net worth is +10 (i.e. he’s got a piece of paper that says you owe him a tenner). Suppose further you’re both in a jail that makes you work for £5 a day and charges you £5 a day for food. If you want to reduce you debt (i.e. make your net worth greater than -10) without your brother increasing his net debt (i.e. making his net worth less than +10) then, combined, you must buy less than £10 worth of food. This is despite you brother being flush with his £5 earnings and some amount of debt repayments. A final assumption could be that the jail doesn’t allow earnings in excess of purchases, and so if less than £10 of food is bought in total then it will reduce wages so that earnings equal purchases.
This is analogous to the current situation, household debt repayments are necessary, corporations are not borrowing, so those who also want governments not to expand their borrowing are really arguing for the economy as a whole to contract and for mass unemployment. The correct policy is for governments to run deficits when households are cutting back, and for goverments to run surpluses when households are expanding (Irn Broon didn’t do this after about 2001)
#24 by dcomerf on September 19, 2011 - 4:55 pm
And for more fables of the financial crisis: http://triplecrisis.com/the-global-crisis-as-a-brothers-grimm-story/
#25 by cynicalHighlander on September 19, 2011 - 8:28 pm
European bank exsposure
#26 by Max on September 19, 2011 - 6:33 pm
Economic growth cannot happen with oil at $100/barrel and diesel at 140p/litre. Scotland is a nation of extreme car dependency, gas guzzling ferries, diesel farming, diesel fishing and endless trucking. High oil prices mean inevitable and relentless economic contraction, unless Scotland gets its hands on the oil royalties to subsidise domestic oil use like in Venezuela. Not a sensible option or a long term strategy.
Raising taxes, or even starting to tax the very rich would allow current public spend to continue for a few years. Its time to tax accumulated wealth, especially by land value tax.
People with £10 million in the bank should expect to lose some of it. Shut down Jersey, Lichtenstein etc.
I’m moving to physical assets with my accumulated wealth. Its lifeboat time.
#27 by Max on September 19, 2011 - 7:39 pm
Building infrastructure like , for example massive trunk road bypasses near Aberdeen is a pretty special way to respond to a shortage of road fuel and resulting price shocks and recession. Its the psycology of previous investment. One more sacrifice to appease the angry gods, the central deity being economic growth and the holy trinity including fractional reserve banking and paper currency. Meanwhile the heretics speak of railways, and localisation.
Ever wondered what that book ‘Limits to Growth ‘ from the 70s was all about? Its about now. We have hit limits to growth. Growth is over. No more economic growth. Peak oil, means peak energy, peak cars, peak travel, peak tourism, peak road noise, peak leisure, peak food, peak metal, peak ploughing, peak everything. The Daily Mail reports 1.3million people have stopped driving in the UK 12 months. You could guess there are about 100,000 fewer Scottish drivers. Cars are a huge part of the economy, and they are disappearing by the hundred thousand. Economic growth in this context is quite absurd. Perhaps peak cycling is still to come.
Every civilization thinks it is furthest from collapse just as it peaks in complexity and size. And oh boy is our civilization complex. Denial is a central principal of collapse . Resource constraints are the master. We are in ecological overshoot, like Wile E.Coyote we only need to look down.
We buy gold.
#28 by Barbarian on September 19, 2011 - 7:58 pm
I agree that the SNP are more fiscally sound, however as Jeff points out they promised much more than they can deliver, even with full fiscal control.
There are ways to reduce public spending. Free presciptions for starters should be reviewed. Perhaps a flat charge of £3 per item (unless on benefits, chronically ill etc) would surely save a few million.
My worry is that the SNP will rack up problems in order to achieve independence, and once that is achieved we will be hit with “necessary cuts”.
Regulating public transport is essential, but then that might cause a few funding problems!
All said and done, the SNP have proven so far to be more prudent.
#29 by Indy on September 20, 2011 - 8:10 am
Free prescriptions cost sod all in the scheme of things.
#30 by NoOffenceAlan on September 19, 2011 - 8:24 pm
With free bus passes and personal care for pensioners, and free tuition for students allegedly under threat, can we really justify commuters on the new Forth crossing travelling toll-free?
#31 by Barbarian on September 19, 2011 - 10:27 pm
Building a new Forth Crossing, just after the debacle of the trams, will not go down well in most of Scotland. Even though the trams were not the fault of the SNP, they have now decided to finish the project – at high cost – and also want to spend a minimum of £1.2 billion on a bridge that will benefit a few.
The SNP have to be careful, since blaming Westminster isn’t very effective to the average voter when they can see a majority on Holyrood.
#32 by Indy on September 20, 2011 - 8:16 am
You are having a laugh aren’t you?
The ability to cross the Forth by road actually benefits the whole of Scotland – especially the east coast.
It would be rather inconvenient if people couldn’t do that, or if hours were added on to every journey because of lane restrictions.
Keeping the country moving is a basic function of government. It’s not some fancy pants vanity project like the trams. As we all know it would have cost less to pave the entire frigging tram route with gold than the trams have cost. That’s because the plan was financially unsound from the very start, as well as being unnecessary.
Don’t tar the SNP with that profligate brush until you have some evidence to support it.
#33 by GMcM on September 20, 2011 - 9:58 am
The trams are not a vanity project. The SNP spat the dummy out because they were voted down and have shown poor leadership in not helping out with the project until now.
Everyone could see there were problems with the constructors so why didn’t the SNP do the responsible thing and help out – no they wanted to stand back and say ‘we told you so’.
Yep, competent governing.
The SNP are always on the lookout for the populist action. It doesn’t matter if it will improve X they will go with Y because it doesn’t cause any problems with the electorate.
The SNP are against trams in Edinburgh and are also against congestion charges – so tell us, what do the SNP believe is the correct way to reduce traffic flow in the city of Edinburgh in the future? Should we let Edinburgh turn into a car park as traffic increases?
Yes populist policies may get you elected, but is that what the people of Scotland really want? A party that just looks at getting back in power but don’t take the tough decisions for the future.
I can live with Labour losing elections when we lose fighting for what is right (Monklands being an example) even if it’s not popular.
#34 by Doug Daniel on September 20, 2011 - 11:21 am
“The trams are not a vanity project.”
That’ll be why the many people from Edinburgh I worked with around 2006 – 2008 all thought it was a completely pointless exercise, attempting to replace (and I quote) “the perfectly good number 22 bus route”? I’m quoting a lifelong Labour voter there, who I believe ended up voting for the SNP because of his dissatisfaction with Labour, despite regularly arguing with me against independence.
I’m not exaggerating when I say I’ve never met a person from Edinburgh who thought the trams were a good idea, and certainly not one who thought they were essential to keeping Edinburgh moving. They may exist, but they’re very hard to find.
Trams are just another form of public transport. They’re not some golden bullet that magically makes people stop taking their cars.
#35 by GMcM on September 20, 2011 - 11:50 am
Just because you put through a project when people are against it doesn’t therefore make that project a vanity project. So because a Labour voter is against it that means the SNP are right?
Again I’ll ask the question: What do the SNP propose to reduce traffic flow in the future in Edinburgh?
You’re right, the trams are NOT a silver bullet; but they will make a difference. Ths SNP seem to think you can just keep going with the popular opinion (against congestion charges, againnst tram, etc) and it will have no impact. We keep hearing of this ‘positive vision’ for Scotland. Can someone explain to me what that ‘positive vision’ really is?
The SNP are all show and no substance.
#36 by Indy on September 20, 2011 - 10:33 pm
What do you propose to reduce traffic flow in the future in Edinburgh?
Cos the single tramline that will – eventually – be completed at an extortionate cost won’t.
#37 by GMcM on September 21, 2011 - 9:34 am
I’ll answer your question as it is the curteous thing to do when a question is put to you.
I think the trams will play a significant part in reducing traffic flow; however they should be part of a much wider traffic reduction program. Have a look at London’s bicycle scheme or the oyster card. There are many things which can be done, together, to reduce traffic flow. Trams are an integral part of that.
Now I’ll ask for a third time (third time’s a charm and all that):
What do the SNP propose to reduce traffic flow in Edinburgh for the future?
Anyone?
#38 by Doug Daniel on September 21, 2011 - 1:00 am
There’s a very big, important difference between the trams and the Forth Crossing. The trams will benefit only those in Edinburgh, and it won’t even benefit everyone in Edinburgh, since it’s just the one route. The Forth Crossing, on the other hand, benefits everyone who has a need to get from the North and East of Scotland to Edinburgh itself and beyond. If we did a poll of people who view this blog to ask how many of them have used the Forth Road Bridge several times in their life, I would be surprised if we didn’t get a 100% responding “I have!”. The same would certainly not be true when asking who all has used the number 22 bus route in Edinburgh, which is what the tram is effectively replacing.
Of course, this is why the trams were under the stewardship of the council – as it’s a local transport project – whereas the Forth Crossing will be a Scottish Government project, relating, as it does, to far more people than just those in the City of Edinburgh.
Besides, after projects like the M74 extension, I think people are far more confident in the SNP’s ability to bring projects in on time and on budget than with the previous government (or the UK government). I think people will say “£1.2 billion? It’s a lot, but at least I know that’s how much it really will cost.”
#39 by Doug Daniel on September 20, 2011 - 11:28 am
Can we really justify letting people drive on the extended M74 for free? Can we really justify letting people drive on the upgraded M80 for free? Can we really justify letting people drive on the AWPR for free (if it ever gets built)?
Bridges are just bits of road that cross a body of water (well, usually). Why should they be any more susceptible to charges than any other piece of road? When did the R get dropped from Bridge Trolls?
#40 by cynicalHighlander on September 19, 2011 - 11:08 pm
Type your comment here
The Forth road bridge is the lifeline for the N & NE Scotland we might be a few but essential for Scotland’s economy.
#41 by M G on September 20, 2011 - 10:43 pm
G McM
Do you mean ‘the SNP’ as a government (as in transport policy ) or do you mean the SNP councillors in Edinburgh to sort out ‘Edinburgh’s ‘ traffic flow problem ? I assume there is a whole department of local govt in Edinburgh PAID to sort out Edinburgh’s traffic flow problem but was’nt sure which one you were questioning?
I also think you know as well as I do, the decision to push through the trams was politically driven.The SNP were not supposed to still be in government , they were supposed to be found wanting and isolated (by opposing the trams).To have intervened early (besides interfering in local govt )there would have been faux outrage from the opposition. Its called politics. So what do you want? Do you want them to butt out and leave Edinburgh Council to carry on being in charge or do you want them involved , you can’t have it both ways ?
Having just read someone else’s transport policy, I was amused to see the first proposal was the need for a ‘transport manager’ for at least 20 years and there my friend is the crux of where did it all go wrong.
#42 by GMcM on September 21, 2011 - 9:44 am
Are you saying that the SNP group at Holyrood and the SNP group at Edinburgh council have different views on how to tackle the traffic problem?
If they share the same view then you clearly just dodged the question; if they have different views perhaps you could ellaborate on those differences of opinion.
Yes there probably is a department at the council that would look at this; does that mean the SNP don’t have their own view on the issue and just wait on that department making recommendations? Councillors are also paid to sort out the problems in Edinburgh you know.
I agree there was a political edge to the vote however it was also because the other parties believe the trams are the right thing for Edinburgh. Mainly the latter.
Do you agree that it was the right thing for the SNP to sit back and watch as the project hit the skids? The government were putting money into the project; they had a responsiblity, just like the councillors, to ensure that public money wasn’t wasted. They are just as much to blame for the debacle.
#43 by Doug Daniel on September 21, 2011 - 12:50 pm
You either have a problem with the idea of delegating responsibility, or you’re just determined to place the blame for the trams fiasco on the SNP, a strategy so ridiculous that it was guaranteed unionists would adopt it when the poo hit the fan. As part of the SNP/Lib Dem council coalition agreement, the Lib Dem councillors took on full responsibility for the trams project. Therefore, the responsibility for the poor implementation ultimately lies with them. After all, that’s the whole point of “taking responsibility” for something. The SNP did have a view – their view was “the trams are a white elephant”. This view was ignored, even though it has proven correct.
The problem – which M G is trying to point out to you – is that you’re saying “the SNP” without making it clear whether you mean the Scottish Government or the co-leaders of the council, and both have different roles to play. Was it the right thing for the Scottish Government to sit back and allow the council to try and implement their tram project? Yes, because it was a local transport project, not a national one. If the SG interfered in every local project that received central funding, they would be running just about everything, and there’d be no point in having councils. They put money into the project, but the responsibility ultimately rested with those who were tasked with implementing the project – i.e. the Lib Dem councillors. They failed, so now the SG have stepped in to try and clean up the mess – even though they were against the trams in the first place.
If you’re asking if it was the right thing for the SNP councillors to sit back, then again, yes – the agreement between the SNP and Lib Dems was that the Lib Dems were responsible for the project. If they didn’t feel up to it, they shouldn’t have agreed to take it on.
As for the other parties believing that trams were the right thing for Edinburgh, well perhaps they did, but they never bothered to ask the people of Edinburgh, and it is they who have ultimately paid the price, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, both financially and through major inconvenience to everyday life.
And what effect has the project had on traffic? Oh yeah, that’s right, it’s made it worse.
#44 by GMcM on September 21, 2011 - 1:59 pm
I do see delegation as an important part of governance, however you must realise that the SNP government had a responsibility to the public to ensure that public funds were not wasted. I’m not suggesting that governments intervene in every local government project that has central government funding – what I’m saying is: everyone could see that there were problems with the relationship between the contractors and the council so why did the SNP not offer to help resolve those differences. They’re happy enough to do it now. Now that the project has descended into a complete farce.
Going by your logic, the SNP government have passed the money onto the council, then said ‘do as you will, it’s your fault if things go wrong’. The SNP at council level have voted to keep the project going but are saying it’s not their responsibility. That’s like saying it’s not the Lib Dems fault for voting through something, in support of their coalition partners, that they actually oppose (tuition fees, possibly NHS reform in England and Wales, etc).
This is typical of the SNP in government – they’ll take the credit when it’s going but blame local councils/Westminster when things go wrong.
Again my point has been missed. Obviously the SNP at Holyrood and at Edinburgh council have different roles; what I’m asking is what do the SNP plan to do about traffic flow in Edinburgh. I’m asking: if the SNP don’t want trams, and don’t want congestion charges what do they want to do to solve this problem?
If you’re telling me that the SNP councillors and SNP MSPs have different visions for public transport and traffic flow in Edinburgh then what are those differences. If they agree on what should be done then it would be nice to hear it.
Labour are constantly being told to offer a positive alternative and to stop being negative. Where is the positive vision from the SNP on this matter, all we seem to get is negativity and claims that they share no blame in the problems.
I’m not saying the blame rests squarely with the SNP, far from it. I’m saying they must accept their share of the responsibility.
All we’ve had so far are comments on how the trams fiasco wasn’t the fault of the SNP and ‘we told you so’. The other particularly annoying comment that keeps cropping up ‘you never asked the people; they don’t want it’. Well of course, people never like disruption. My hometown has recently had some major regeneration work done along it’s main street. The public weren’t happy with the disruption, however now that it’s finished they like it. It’s this negative campaigning by the SNP that really irks me. Always latching onto the populist view regardless of the merits of the proposal. Being in government is about listening and leading, not following regardless of the information at hand.
So can someone tell me, either SNP MSPs’ or SNP councillors’ alternative vision for transport in Edinburgh?