I don’t really know how far back I started thinking of this post, months at least, but I do know when the tipping point was.
A few weeks ago I was merrily travelling back to London from Edinburgh on the East Coast rail line when the English-accented train conductor checked my ticket. As I had been sure I was booked on the 3pm I wasn’t prepared for his response of: “This ticket is for the 2:30pm. You’ll have to buy another one. That’ll be £146.”
Now, I can put to one side as off-topic the ludicrously extortionate charge of £146 for getting on a half-empty train when you’d paid to be on the half-empty train 30minutes in front of you. I can incorporate that financial blow better than some but that works out as three full days of work on the minimum wage (on top of the £60 for the original ticket). I can also look past the factor that some people are just doing their job and, to an extent, following rules and guidelines can’t realistically be avoided.
What really scunnered me was the abject lack of compassion from the conductor; the stony faced passive patience while I absorbed the news, protested and then got my wallet; the lack of even a flicker of consideration to say, as he could so easily have done’ ‘look, don’t worry about it, but check your ticket next time’. I searched his eyes for any of the above. There was nothing, nothing at all.
The disappointment at that crushing soullessness was compounded the very next day as I sought to return a pair of £70 roller blades for store credit in as-new condition that had been bought a few days earlier but were the wrong size (and the correct size wasn’t available). I had to speak to three different members of staff, increasing in seniority, the third of which I had to go ten verbal rounds with before he’d grudgingly make good on my statutory rights. Staggering out of the store I thought to myself – ‘It shouldn’t be this hard to just get along. I shouldn’t be so constantly disappointed in other people?’.
At what point did so many of us decide that our allegiance, our duty of care, was to ‘the man’ rather than our fellow man? Why do so many of us in this country look like cracking a smile would actually break our faces in two?
I know it’s a cliche to say that London is a glum, joyless, armpit of the nation but living here I have increasingly lost the resistance to believe otherwise and I just wonder, not to mention worry, just how widespread this problem is. Is the UK stuck in a joyless rut? Is it, as I suspect, largely confined to England?
After all, who would choose to be English these days, given tbe choice? What is marking the nation out as being the place to be, the people to be, in this 21st century? It’s not its diet, its sporting prowess, its politics, its equality or its media surely. And it’s certainly not the pride in the badge, wrestling as Englanders are to reclaim their flag from the EDL.
There’s a reason why recent successful English TV is period drama, Jane Austen and Sherlock Holmes. Nothing has taken its place since, unless you want to include the gritty Shameless, skinhead-focussed This is England or the long line of tv comedies happy to snidily glorify how rotten everything is out there. Jimmy Carr and Al Murray are not standing at the end of England’s rainbow.
Culturally the warning signs are there too. PJ Harvey won the Mercury Music Prize the other week for her album ‘Let England Shake’, an album that The Guardian describes as ‘an opaque exploration of Englishness delivered in a high, keening voice’. I’ve listened to the CD and heard it live and, as a PJ Harvey fan, I was surprised that it won. I would wager that the delight that someone so talented was taking the first faltering steps at untangling what England is played a part.
It may be a similar story for the admittedly sublime West End show Jerusalem, returning for a second run after sweeping the board at the Tonys. The play is a no holds barred view of what England was and has now become. There is no conclusion as such (how could there be), unless you count the main character getting beaten to a pulp which, metaphorically, isn’t so far from where England currently resides.
This could all get put down as a xenophobic rant, former SNP member kicks out at the English, ‘cybernat on the loose, out of tne way!’ but I really do think there’s a deep existential crisis going on south of the border, more so than anywhere else although maybe I’ve just forgotten that Scotland’s in as just a perilous condition and I don’t know enough about anywhere else to make a fair comparison.
After all, is it fair to take one example of jobsworth twattery and gross that out across a nation? Possibly not but I really do think that there is a linkage at play here. A person not knowing why they are doing the job they are doing, how it fits into the wider context of their country and how that collective whole in turn is not providing the contentment and satisfaction of their dear and pleasant land. Well, from small problematic acorns grow mighty oaks of despair. Â
I can only go by the generalisations of the people that I’ve met and worked with but my conclusions thus far are that the English are slightly yobbish, snobbish, rather selfish workaholics that don’t really know how to enjoy their leisure time without indulging in copious amounts of alcohol. Hopefully I have an unreflective sample size but I can only go by what’s before me.
Not that Scotland differs so much, less snobbish and less yobbish perhaps but we’re not even picking the low hanging fruit when it comes to defining our nation. One small example, I think it’s a terrible shame that with some of the best coast, landscape and mountains in our back garden, only a slither of Scots learn how to surf, golf or ski. Cost is not necessarily a barrier. The more people who did them, the cheaper they would be. Â Â
That said, Scotland benefits from having a better grasp of who she was, who she is and what she could be in the future. England is a bit lost when it comes to all three, hence the English cultural scene embarking on a period of questioning introspection. Â
In which direction is the collective heave of England going? I would like to know as I’ll be doing a little bit of the pushing for the next wee while. For me, England at its best is wild moors, picturesque villages, fine tailoring, hearty meals at gastropubs, the fading grandeur of beach destinations, the mutual respect for distinctive regions from Geordie to Kerbow, passionate support of a football team that’ll never make it out of non-league, the self-aware pomp of last of the Proms, Fry-esque eloquence, majestic behind-the-curtain diplomacy, fierce pride in the NHS and simply enjoying a cup of tea.Â
That’s not a bad start.Â
However, there must be an increasingly concerning reason why the English don’t have a word for joie de vivre, fair dinkum, craic or gie’n it laldie.
And, what admittedly may be underpinning all of this, by George I want my money back.
#1 by Gavin Hamilton on September 18, 2011 - 2:45 pm
Gosh, that is a surprisingly generalising piece for you Jeff.
Admittedly your story from the east coast line is a shocker.
I lived down south for a decade – admittedly not London. But they are broadly as cheerful as other folks from around the UK. there is a certain stand-offishness but us Scots are not without that too at times.
I think also Scots society is a little more egalitarian than English society – but that can vary – and they don’t have our shocking sectarianism.
I also think experiences will vary a lot out of London – up north, Liverpool and Geordie land – the south-west of Bristol and down to Devon and Cornwall.
I also think experiences will vary rural and urban.
Some of what you are getting at is I think I general 21st century alienation and the breakdown of community and civic society.
That is something we suffer from all over western society.
But I hope we’re not going to drift into a wee bit of ‘wha’s like us’ and anti English sentiment.
Oh – and the beer is good – their beer is good!
#2 by Jeff on September 18, 2011 - 9:28 pm
It certainly is a generalisation Gavin, I’m not pretending otherwise. But I didn’t wake up one morning and have this thought, it’s been drip-dripping away for a while now and it’s only because it’s been on the slow burner that I thought it justifiable to post. It still might be a bit harsh to make sweeping generalisations about a country but I’m aware of that and happy for folks to disagree of course.
I definitely take your point about rural vs urban. London is hardly a fair barometer of England as a whole (although most of the English people I know in London are not from London originally).
I think ’21st century alienation’ is a pretty fascinating topic, and certainly wider than this post, if there’s even any overlap at all. I’ve already had 3 different MPs (from 3 different parties) since 2010. Not sure how you build community spirits with so many people moving to and fro.
#3 by oldchap on September 18, 2011 - 3:44 pm
i’d have to agree with gavin. since moving to loughborough in the east midlands from aberdeen i’ve been pleasantly surprised by how friendly and community minded everyone is here. maybe my expectations were too low! I know it’s a good bit better here than london, my sisters been there for years and that place has a totally different pace of life.
that said, there is something different here that I can’t quite put my finger on. I think i’m more conscious of social classes here in a way I wasn’t in scotland, but if so it’s very subtle.
#4 by Jeff on September 18, 2011 - 9:29 pm
Thanks Oldchap. Good to hear. I’ll be delighted if the amalgam of my experience are the exception rather than the norm.
#5 by Richard Thomson on September 18, 2011 - 4:35 pm
Jeff,
You might find a book about English futures called ‘Imagined Nation’ quite a good read, if you can get hold of it. It’s edited by Mark Perryman and published by Lawrence & Wishart – their site is http://www.lwbooks.co.uk
Cheers,
Richard
#6 by Jeff on September 18, 2011 - 9:23 pm
Thanks Richard. I’ll look it up. Someone else suggested ‘Progressive Patriot’ by Billy Bragg.
#7 by Random Lurking Scotsman on September 18, 2011 - 5:58 pm
Having just come back from studying a Master’s degree in England, I think that generally they’re actually just fine. The only problem is how to express a sense of national pride without it getting turned into the starting ground for a nasty right-wing politics.
One thing that I’ve noticed seems to be that any English nationalist party usually takes a line that’s akin to a version of the Tory Right on steroids – privatizing left, right and center, suspicious of anything that isn’t “English” and generally highly xenophobic, and full of “little England” anger at the rest of the world.
For a while, the thinking has been “England = Britain” and with the resurgence of political autonomy on the Celtic Fringe, so to speak, England still has to find its political voice. It will – but let’s hope it draws on the socialist, egalitarian, and liberal traditions in English politics rather than the nasty Daily Mail one.
As for rail conductors being idiotic jobsworths, this is a universal law. I’ve been chewed out by stony faced idiots on Scotrail too, and in France and the United States. There’s something in their DNA that gives them this tendency I think…
#8 by Barbarian on September 18, 2011 - 6:23 pm
I lived in England for 11 years, moving back up here in the mid-90s. In my line of work, I deal with people all over the UK.
The train issue does not surprise me one bit, and it is exactly the same in Scotland – the SNPs dropping of properly regualting public transport is a major issue I have.
It’s not that staff at fault – they have to operate within the rules and they get hammered if they try to be friendly.
As to the shop, well. I’ve had similar experiences in Scotland. It’s the same all over.
Personally, I don’t think there has been that much change in England. London has always been and will remain one of worst cities in the world for ignorance.
To be honest, I don’t think England is really any worse than Scotland, although some of the real cybernats (not you of course!!) may beg to differ.
#9 by Don Francisco on September 18, 2011 - 7:35 pm
Couldn’t disgaree with your post more. I was born and brought up in Scotland until 18, then left for uni to Manchester, now have family, friends & job and live in W Yorks.
One thing I’ve learnt about England is that it is a big, diverse place, Manchester is v different from Yorkshire which is different from Cumbria, the midlands, the South etc, the strength of regional/city identitied can be strong. Some places in England feel they have more in common with Scotland than the rest of their own country, esp the North. London is really its own country – there is nothing like it in the rest of England.
I have found class more visible than it was in Scotland, though I wonder if I see it more easily as an outsider (when I visit home that I have noticed it more and more – seeing the familiar in a different light).
I’m struggling to think of traits I see solely in the English than I do in the Scots. Perhaps the only one you point out is that of a sense of ‘self’, which the Scots posess with ease, the English unsure of who they are – I’d agree with that. This may seem a curse but I think that a nation engaged in dialouge with itself is quite an attractive quality – a bit of self doubt is certainly something us Scots could benefit from once in a while. Could you imagine a Scottish PJ Harvey asking the same questions a winning a prize at home?
I’ll second the observation about the beer, it is very, very good down here, the pubs are a lot nicer too.
#10 by Allan on September 18, 2011 - 7:50 pm
Two things Jeff.
Firstly, i don’t necessarily think of this as an English only malaise, there are plenty of examples of Scottish surliness and rank awful customer service (My fiancee was on a bus in Glasgow when a couple of visitors to Glasgow were nonplussed when the driver asked for “Twosevenyfivvve”, with no explanation of whether this was a single or return price to name but one). But there is an unease coming from our neighbours “Dahn Sarf”. Maybe it is the unease at their own identity, prehaps its jelousy at our identity. It certainly no coincidence that the Daily Sexpress & the Daily Fail have started to drip feed anti Scottish “stories”.
Secondly, it is possible that the English sensibility has been much more affected by the cuts agenda and the errosion of public services & transport and community in general, than the Scottish sensibility has. Hence the reason for growing resentment towards Scotland’s percieved land of milk & honey with the Scotish Parliament, and hence the drip feed of anti-Holyrood stories in those mid-market tabloids.
Oh, and on the East coast line part of your story, i’m sure that there was a piece on PM (April i think) where a train company was charging people who deviated from the train journey stipulated on their ticket (people who got off a stop early).
#11 by Topher Dawson on September 18, 2011 - 8:11 pm
Jeff,
There are tales of Scots working in London who saw the beer advert with the sound track “Caledonia” and just left their jobs. Are you going to be one of them? If so, fair play, but as others have pointed out, there are better bits of England than London.
Cheers, Topher.
#12 by Observer on September 18, 2011 - 8:20 pm
I think you should definitely complain about the ticket inspector! That was just malicious, people who don’t like the public should not be in jobs where they get the chance to be evil to strangers.
Jeff, you have listed one of the great things about England as a fierce pride in the NHS. How do people who have that pride feel about what the Tories are doing to it? In fact how do people who didn’t vote for the ConDems feel about a lot of things? We in Scotland have a wall called devolution to protect us from the worst excesses of the ConDems social policies. No such wall exists for the significant numbers of English people who don’t agree with what their government is doing.
People aren’t unhappy just because of politics, but England is a divided nation. It doesn’t have the same glue holding it together that Scotland has. I believe that is, in part, the result of a succession of governments who have put the individual & choice at the heart of their policies, rather than the more collective approach which you still find in Scotland.
That may be a characteristic of English society, where every man has his Castle, but it is one that has been manipulated by politicians to get elected. Margaret Thatcher, so reviled by most Scottish people, is very well known for saying there is no such thing as society. Perhaps that was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It is not a good idea for Scottish people to be smug when looking at the deep divisions & unrest in England. We should beware schadenfreude. However, perhaps Scottish society is different because we believe it is different. We believe we are more egalitarian & more collective in our approach to things, so perhaps that makes us behave like that.
Perhaps the English need to move on from the Thatcherite beliefs that have done so much to damage their society & find something else to believe in.
#13 by Random Lurking Scotsman on September 18, 2011 - 11:11 pm
Indeed. As you get closer to Scotland, you see more and more Labour seats and less Tory ones – and yet much of who holds the balance of power is determined not by these seats, but by who holds a majority of tiny seats in London and the South East.
I’ve looked with incredulity at how many seats there are in London, and it’s fairly obvious that England is being lead by the nose by a bunch of fiscal conservatives in “marginal” seats who do not represent the more social democratically-inclined North at all.
The jobs are there, the money is there – so they can of course think “recession, what recession?” and carry on with the idea that Thatcherite policies are working when in actual fact they’re only working for some, not all of England. Meanwhile outside of the M25 and the Home Counties, shops shut down, investment dries up and infrastructure and services crumble. The “Big Society” may work in London where some have time to take off of work to run schools and libraries, but not in other places where people just have their heads barely above water.
I always found this quite thought provoking:
http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/maps/nsdivide/index.html
The “North” starts around Bristol, and then goes diagonally up according to the train of thought we see here. Perhaps, using this, we should actually extend the independence referendum to the communities within the line in England and also Wales so they have the chance to say “ta ta” to the Tories and get the chance to set up shop with a bunch of people closer to their own line of thinking!
#14 by Observer on September 18, 2011 - 8:24 pm
I should clarify that I am talking about London/SE there, as that is the only part of England that I know. But I know it well & I agree with a lot of what Jeff has said.
#15 by Craig Kelly on September 18, 2011 - 10:56 pm
Allan, I can one better you with the anecdote about bus drivers. I was getting on a bus in Edinburgh behind a small group of French tourists. They asked the bus driver in quite broken English if he could tell them how to get to a certain place. He retorted in broad leith, ‘do I look like a f*king map?’
Jeff, I think your article hints at some really serious problems that all of the nations in the UK face. There is distrust within society; between the classes, ethnic races, and fear of generally everyone who you don’t know. I don’t think I’m alone in feeling unsafe walking through certain places in Scotland. Fear and distrust will surely lead to the types of behaviour you allude to.
I could go on a rant about the problem being that the Scots are beginning to define themselves post-devolution, the English have not been given the chance, and so on. Whilst there’s probably a little truth in this, I think it’s hard to identify all of the factors that have created societal issues in the UK. I do think, however, that you are right that they exist.
#16 by Barbarian on September 18, 2011 - 11:43 pm
There is a difference between Glasgow and London.
If you ask for directions in London, you’ll be ignored. Ask in Glasgow, and you might even be led to where you want to go, especially if your guide has had a few!
#17 by Terry on September 19, 2011 - 10:51 am
Excuse the vernacular, but I think the idea that the English have “deep divisions” and are “unsure about themselves” is absolute bollocks.
England is by far the most homogenous nation in the UK, Politically, economically, historically and culturally.
Compare industrial, modern south Wales to touristy north Wales. Edinburgh has more in common with London and Manchester than it does the Western Isles and the Highlands that are Celtic in language and culture.
England is Europe’s oldest nation state whereas Wales has not existed as such, pre 1998. Scotland was always torn between the Catholic Highlands and the Protestant lowlands (Glasgow was the first British city to close its gates on Bonnie Prince Charlie). Apart from the civil war, which was more between Parliament and Crown, England has not seen such turmoil within itself.
At least we speak the same language in England. (BTW fair dinkum comes from Anglia and it is interesting that there is no word for Schadenfreude)
I think those who adopt faux concern and wring their hands at an imagined lack of “self” are simply thinking wishfully. We’re owe rate down here, dunna werrit theesen
#18 by Welshguy on September 19, 2011 - 1:06 pm
When I used to commute from Anglesey to the Mainland in north Wales, I used to get away with all sorts of evasive ticket behaviour – “you should’ve bought the ticket at the station… never mind, I’ll let you off”… “you’re only allowed to use that railcard for a journey after 10:00am… remember that next time”… Admittedly, the very most they could have charged me for a proper ticket was £5, not £146, but I’m pretty sure ticket inspectors all over England & Wales have generally been pretty forgiving. I suspect you were just unlucky to be on a train with a total sadist.
#19 by Home Rule for England on September 19, 2011 - 1:43 pm
Well said Terry #17. There is more division in the other UK nations than there is in England. Much of it is religious (catholic protestant) but as you say there is also the gaelic v English issue.
As for ‘what happened to England?’. Well I think the simple answer to that is nothing. England is still here. OK we got sidetracked by the British thing for a while but hopefully that’s coming to an end.
I look foward to an independent England.
#20 by Hendre on September 19, 2011 - 3:14 pm
Could it be that Jeff is having a grumpy old man moment?
#21 by The Burd on September 19, 2011 - 4:01 pm
He’s spent too long hanging out blogwise with me. And I am a bona fides grumpy old wumman.
#22 by Jeff on September 19, 2011 - 5:39 pm
Could be, certainly can’t rule that out Hendre. As I say though, it’s a thought that’s been recurring for quite a while now so I suppose that’d make it a grumpy year, which wouldn’t be very good at all…! So yeah, I’m perfectly aware that I might be barking up the wrong tree, but thought I’d put it down in a post anyway…
#23 by setindarkness on September 19, 2011 - 3:30 pm
Having lived in the northern England and southern England, as well as Scotland, I’d say that this is a problem in some areas of England. (that said, it was a long time ago I lived in northern england)
Living in the south east was a horrible experience and I’m very glad to be living in Scotland. Selfish, snobbish, money grabbing, violent, road raging, back stabbing bunch o buggers.
Our next door neighbours of 5 years never spoke to us – one day they put up a 6-foot high fence at the front without mentioning it to us – when there was an issue with a tree growing a wee bit high, they wrote us a letter threatening us with legal action if we didn’t do something about it – rather, than you know mentioning to us it was bother them. It was typical behaviour of most people in the area. Yes, he was a white van driver.
Our kids could not play in the street – either they would be run over by speeding idiots who couldn’t wait to join the nearest rush hour queue, or be attacked by the next door neighbours twin boys. We called them feral at the time, jokingly. I should have copywrited the term.
rant over.
It’s not to say Scotland has its own problems, but this one isn’t one of them.
#24 by Jeff on September 19, 2011 - 5:38 pm
Thanks Paul, glad it’s not just me. I did think it was an unfair post but still fair comment (if that’s not completely contradictory).
As an aside, funny story about fences. A friend (living in Sweden, so not linked to this post) received a note from his neighbour asking if he’d help put up a fence between their properties. My mate didn’t have anything else to do so put in a few hours helping him put the fence up. The next week he received a bill, with no prior warning, for half the cost of the fence, a cool £1,800!
So could’ve been worse with your neighbour, you could have been charged for that fence, aswell as help build it!
#25 by setindarkness on September 21, 2011 - 10:39 pm
That is a serious nightmare fence story! Glad that didn’t happen.
#26 by mav on September 19, 2011 - 9:33 pm
I lived in Midlothian for 4 years and your neighbour sounds like mine then. He spoke to me once – to tell me to get rid of my dog. He had a massive leylandi hedge, and used to walk into our back garden to trim it. (and no, this had nothing to do with the dog). And he had two feral kids.
After being beaten up by a total stranger one night for no reason, we moved.
We have the same problems. Don’t pretend.
#27 by setindarkness on September 21, 2011 - 10:38 pm
There’s always people like that. My point (and I think I make the same mistake as Jeff at not making this quite clear enough) is that most people around where I lived were like that. Its a general perception and attitude of the people who you live with.
And I’m sure there are dodgy areas in Scotland, but it is not like I live in a listed building in Edinburgh.
I’ve never felt scared in Scotland (except the one time I was asked who I supported Rangers or Celtic in a pub by a very drunk fan; but that is another problem) but didn’t feel safe walking to my own local shops at 9pm; or taking the kids to the park at 3:30 in the afternoon cos there were 30 teenagers “hanging around”
#28 by Terry on September 22, 2011 - 8:01 am
Whenever someone tells me the problem is not them, but everyone else, the “problem” is actually much closer to home.
#29 by Calum on September 20, 2011 - 12:35 pm
East coast: the enforcement comes from and is driven by the company.
I had the exact same experience, except that I arrived at King’s Cross early and asked a ticket inspector if I could take an earlier train than I had booked. She said that was fine and let me through the barrier. Halfway to Edinburgh I got the same spiel. Currently in the process of exchanging spiky letters with them.
#30 by Jeff on September 20, 2011 - 12:57 pm
I had that same line from a conductor, saying we could get an earlier train. We decided he was lying and just wanted us to go away which, seemingly, was the case.
I sent my spiky letter to East Coast this morning, feel much better for it. Hopeful if not expectant of getting ‘some’ money back. (I note profits are up significantly at the franchise as reported this morning, what a surprise!)
#31 by Douglas McLellan (@douglasmclellan) on September 21, 2011 - 8:51 am
I wonder if it is a malaise that stems from political discourse.
In modern politics everyone is a victim that needs a special policy or epic government budget to support them. Or are being constantly told that you could/should be doing better (to meet a government target or three) which can’t be encouraging.
#32 by Alasdair on September 21, 2011 - 4:37 pm
I think you just got unlucky with the inspector – some are more sympathetic than others. On my last trip on the East Coast Main Line, the inspector pointed out that my Young Person’s Railcard was out of date. But he was decent enough not to charge me for another one right there, he just told me to renew it when I reached Edinburgh (which I did). You can’t really generalise about a whole country from a single incident.
Having said that, I’d say there is, broadly speaking, some truth in what you say: I find England a somewhat gloomy and resentful place (but then I do live in London). And it’s true that there isn’t much sense of what ‘English national identity’ means beyond not being Scottish, Welsh or Irish. Many English people would rather identify with their region than England (Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cornwall, etc); ‘English’ is more a negative identity forced on us by devolution than a positive one. At the risk of making a potentially offensive comparison, trying to define ‘Englishness’ is a bit like trying to define ‘white culture’ (as contrasted with black or Asian culture, etc). Is there really such a thing, or is it just the default? If one culture dominates a society to the extent most people don’t notice it, is there any meaningful difference between that culture and society as a whole?
#33 by Jeff on September 21, 2011 - 5:46 pm
“You can’t really generalise about a whole country from a single incident.”
To be fair, that’s not what I was doing. I thought it was quite clear that this one incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back rather than the single basis of this post.
You’re correct that Yorkshire, Cornwall etc have a strong identity and have as much (if not more) claim to be representative of England than London so, yes, fair point there. I certainly rail against getting mocked for my Scottishness and part of that involves wondering whether those who do it are resentful in a way that they have little identity to revolve around. Now I think about it, the more distinctive Northern Englanders don’t tend to do it. Hmm…
And no, I don’t think I’d be able to define white culture, good point, but I could define French culture or Italian culture so, for me, there is a specific difficult with English culture. I guess I’m beginning to think a federal UK with England split up into its distinctive regions is a preference with certain subtle benefits.
#34 by Terry on September 22, 2011 - 8:45 am
No you can’t define French or Italian culture. Your claims to be able to do so, prove you can’t.
If you had spent any time with any Italian, you’d know the North and the South should never have been united. Their cultures are as different as the Portuguese and Denmark.
If you had been to Biarritz or Strasbourg, you’d realise that one is Basque and the other spent a good part of its history in Germany.
You’d find either more difficult to define than English culture.
Finally, if national based devolution was good enough for the other nation, province and principality of the UK, we’ll have the same, if it’s not too much trouble.
Regionalism was rejected by a massive 78% in the region that was targeted because it had the strongest perceived identity, the North West.
#35 by Terry on September 22, 2011 - 8:35 am
You absolutely can’t generalise about a whole country from a single incident. You also can’t define white culture, black culture or Asian culture. To lump them together is insulting and ridiculous.
Is there really such a thing as Scottishness? The SNP refuse to define what makes someone Scottish because they know they’ll soon get into a buggers’ muddle if they tried. There are massive regional and secular gulfs (far greater than those found in England) but they (and me) would still define themselves as Scottish.
If you were to meet me, I wouldn’t have to define myself as English because you would do that for me within seconds.
Finally, your theory that many identify with their region before England, I’m afraid it flies in the face of hard evidence.