The mess of student funding within the UK had another murky splurge added to it over the weekend with the news that human rights lawyer Phil Shiner is to challenge the Scottish Government’s plans to charge English students tuition fees. According to Phil, these plans breach the European Convention on Human Rights as they charge students from other parts of the UK to study north of the border while students from other parts of the EU won’t pay.
I really, really hope that this legal challenge fails.
Education is a devolved matter. That means that all Westminster control is rescinded to Holyrood and it also means that a different path is permitted to be taken. Encouraged even.
English students and their parents, as part of the wider English population, voted for a Tory majority that stood on a platform of students paying fees. Just this year, Scottish students and their parents, as part of the wider Scottish population, voted for an SNP majority that has remained steadfastly opposed to students paying a single penny for their education. Both sides have made their beds and should now lie in them.
A recent poll showed that 80% of British people believe that it is unfair that while universities in Scotland do not charge tuition fees to Scottish pupils or other EU nationals, students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland studying at Scottish universities do have to pay tuition fees. That propertion drops to 53% in Scotland only, still a majority.
Had I been asked the same question as this poll, I would also have said that it was unfair. Nonetheless, I still think that the Scottish Government is absolutely right to charge English students a certain level of fees. You have to fight fire with fire.
What this YouGov poll did not include was a question on whether charging English students £9,000/year (I think we can safely remove the “up to”) to study further education was also unfair. You can be sure that more than 53% of Scots would say Yes to that.
So, as a result of Tory/Lib Dem policies, the Scottish Government is faced with English student refugees, fleeing over the border to avoid paying a small fortune to George Osborne and intent on taking up as many of Scotland’s free spots as possible. This would inevitably be to the detriment of Scottish students, quite probably specifically to the detriment of Scottish students who would have just scraped into university and would have needed that opportunity the most.
People claim that this is unfair. Why should Swedish and Maltese and Hungarian students be allowed to study in Scotland for free while English students can’t? Three reasons. (1) There are less students coming to Scotland from continental Europe than there are from England, (2) the Tory/LD coalition has created a problem that it is not for Scotland to solve and (3) member states must treat other states fairly but can arrange its own affairs as it pleases.
Let’s just imagine what would happen if Scotland was forced to let English people pay nothing for their Scottish university places and had to treat all applications equally:
There are circa 50million people in England and circa 5million people in Scotland. That presumably means that Scotland can expect up to ten times more applications from England than it does from within Scotland and, if total fairness is applied and standards are assumed to be even across the UK, that means ten times more places for English students in Scotland.
What happens to all of those students that don’t make it into Edinburgh or Glasgow or, goodness, the English Oxford/Cambridge-reject ghetto that is St Andrews? Practically speaking it means Dundonians/Glaswegians/Edinburghians/Aberdonians paying £9,000/year fees in Liverpool or Exeter or Kent, all because English people voted for a Tory/Lib Dem Government that rammed through what is effectively an English policy. That surely is unfair and surely cannot be allowed to happen if we’re serious about devolution being a lasting settlement for the United Kingdom.
So, for me, from a fairness perspective, the Scottish Government’s decision is both fair and unfair, but, crucially, more the former than the latter.
And from a political perspective, the SNP might just be onto a winner here. It now has a UK-wide audience to whom it can show that it is the sole governing guardians of free tertiary education, a significant faultline between what the UK is and what an independent Scotland could be.
There does seem to be a swell of annoyance that the SNP has not made clear its position on how it shall fund tuition fees when/if Scotland is independent. For me, this is a separate concern for a separate time and, indeed, conflation of the immediate concern of whether the Scottish Government can proceed, now, as it intends with the imagined scenario of what Scotland would look like ‘if’ Scotland votes Yes in the referendum is an admission that an argument has been lost.
Fair is worth fighting for was the green slogan from the last UK election and it’s a motto that the SNP has thankfully taken right to the heart of its policy on further education. Scotland should be proud of the imagination and tenacity shown by Mike Russell and the Scottish Government at large and should be hopeful that Paul Shiner’s legal challenge fails.
#1 by soosider on August 22, 2011 - 8:05 am
This gets right to the heart of this matter, what is it that the rest of the UK is reported as being really annoyed about. The fact that the SG has not followed the policy of the rest of the UK, or that the UK has followed that policy at all? The tack taken by most of the media tends to mask the real issues such as why charge anything, or why charge for something that has already been paid for by taxation, then there is the issue of the fairness of charging £9000 a year and the effect this will have on who can afford to go to University.
#2 by JohnMcdonald on August 22, 2011 - 8:09 am
Well, phew! I had been expecting a typically sour piece that ignored the reasons behind the issue.
I don’t need to agree with everything I read but I do get fed up with the bile poured out by Unionist propaganda monkeys.
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#3 by Owen Duffy on August 22, 2011 - 9:28 am
Interesting post and a strong point.
The only thing I’d question is whether the difference in Scottish and English populations would translate quite so directly to application figures. As well as the financial considerations, there’s the added factor of distance to consider. I reckon plenty of prospective students would prefer to study with the OU or even take a more vocational route than leave their country to study.
#4 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 10:02 am
Fair challenge Owen and I can only really go on either narrow anecdotal evidence or broad assumptions (as I did do).
My own experience (at Edinburgh) was that English students dwarfed the number of Scottish students, though I suspect Scots have a higher proportion in the West (Glasgow, Strathclyde etc). I don’t get the impression that English students are too afraid to travel when going to uni though and not many that I knew would have fancied OU. I’d tentatively suggest that English students are much more keen than Scots, on average, to travel away from home. I guess their being a year or two older might have something to do with it? Again, that’s just a personal opinion and not based on anything other than my own experience.
Even if it’s not the full 1000% more English applications than Scottish applications, if it’s 800%, 500% or even like for like, at what proportion should Scotland be satisfied with funding English (or Welsh, if applicable) students who intend to flee the high costs down south? I just don’t think it’s enough to say that a devolved nation has to treat all UK students the same when two Governments have opted for such different paths.
#5 by Owen Duffy on August 22, 2011 - 10:08 am
Sure, I’d broadly agree. Devolved issues should be just that!
#6 by Andra on August 23, 2011 - 1:36 am
If you go to a Scottish Uni you will meet English folk who have travelled, and Scots who have not. If you go to Newcastle you will meet Scots who have travelled and English who have not.
I doubt we are very much different in that respect.
#7 by daveinmaryburgh on August 22, 2011 - 9:33 am
Good article however I was wondering why there seems to be little talk of how much students resident in Scotland would pay if they attended university in Wales in comparison to students resident in Wales. There also doesn’t seem to be as much discussion of students resident in England attending Welsh and NI universities and what they would be expected to pay.
#8 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 9:55 am
Thanks Dave.
There’s little talk of Wales in any regard in my post as I quite simply don’t really know what the situation is. I’m vaguely aware that the Welsh Assembly will assist students with fees in some way but i decided to stick to what I know; the Scottish vs ‘English’ question.
Malc may be able to assist as a Wales alumnus.
#9 by Malc on August 22, 2011 - 1:17 pm
Have done – see below.
#10 by Douglas McLellan on August 22, 2011 - 10:06 am
Of course, as soon as Scotland becomes independent it either has to leave the EU or the English students can come north and get the same funding as Polish, Maltese or Hungarian students.
#11 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 10:09 am
True. As someone who believes that independence won’t be realised in 2014/15 or whenever the referendum is, I guess I’m not too bothered about that.
The SNP on the otherhand, well, they have some thinking to do, but plenty of time to come up with a plan. (I hope it’s increased taxation but that’s looks unlikely).
#12 by Manny on August 22, 2011 - 4:31 pm
One possible way around it that I see would be for them to introduce the same tuition fees as England and instead provide a grant to people from Scotland to pay the university fees.
The end would be the same, free education for people from Scotland, they could even do it for whatever country the students chose to study in.
It would be similar to how the health service works where I am in Luxembourg (and I think much of the EU). I can go for medical treatment anywhere in the EU, then claim the money back in Luxembourg where I pay my tax.
#13 by Andra on August 23, 2011 - 1:43 am
I assume the govt has looked at that option – but I agree it sounds logical. In fact I’m concerned that Scots are overly encouraged to attend Scottish Unis by the fact that only Scottish Unis are free. We should give a grant to Scots and allow them to go for free to any Uni in the UK / EU or world. Is there a legal reason why we can’t do that.
Maybe the EU forces us to give grants to all EU citizens if we give grants to Scots?
#14 by Thomas Widmann on August 23, 2011 - 3:26 pm
No, I don’t think so. Denmark is managing to give student grants only to Danish citizens and to citizens of other countries who have lived in Denmark for a while, so you can’t just move to Denmark in order to study and get grants too. See the rules here.
#15 by Thomas Widmann on August 23, 2011 - 3:23 pm
I guess the post-independence solution would probably be cultural rather than financial. What I mean is that English students are happy to study in Scotland at the moment because they think of it as the same country and they expect just to be able to move here and start studying without much further ado.
As far as I know (although I might be wrong), very few English students study in Ireland or in other European countries offering English-medium university degrees. Why is that? I’d say it’s because it’s much scarier to move abroad than to move within your own country.
Post-independence, Scotland could do various things to deter English students, such as changing the admission rules (e.g., if you require at least five subjects in your Highers, English students who normally only do three subjects at their A-levels would have a problem). Another option could be to give student loans that are tax-deductible in Scotland after graduation — that would make it unattractive to study in Scotland if the plan was to get a job in England immediately afterwards.
Of course, any such measures would be likely to be met with counter-measures from the Kingdom of England which would make it harder for Scottish students to travel south, but independence will inevitably have both good and bad sides.
#16 by CassiusClaymore on August 22, 2011 - 10:08 am
You can relax, Jeff. The challenge will fail.
Unfortunately for the little-known Mr Shiner, Scottish policy regarding eligibility for free tuition is based on residency rather than nationality, ethicity or any other factor which would breach the law.
The Government is not ‘charging English students’. It is charging students who live in the UK but outside Scotland, regardless of their nationality, ethnicity, sexuality, religion, colour etc. etc. From a legal perspective, therefore, it is entirely non-discriminatory.
Accordingly, a Scot resident in England is not eligible for free tuition, whilst an English kid resident in Scotland is.
Hardly ‘anti-English’ discrimination, then, no matter what the Daily Mail, the Scotsman etc. might say.
If English students want to moan about tuition fees, they should direct their moaning towards the UK Government.
CC
#17 by Andra on August 23, 2011 - 1:50 am
It sounds pretty Anti English to me – Scots, French, Poles, Greeks can all get free education in Scotland but English residents cannot. As pointed out above, if we were a separate EU nation then we’d have to treat English residents equally. The current policy seems indefensible and parochial.
#18 by daveinmaryburgh on August 22, 2011 - 10:14 am
Hi Jeff, question wasn’t a criticism of the article just to point out that the media have focussed on the rules set by Scotland. Wales is doing the same as Scotland, as far as I’m aware and yet there seems to be little discussion of this, especially when it would result in students resident in Scotland paying more if they attended a Welsh university than their cousins’ resident in Wales, the same complaint raised by students from England attending Scottish universities. Although they don’t seem to be complaining as much about attending Welsh universities. More than happy to be corrected if I’ve read this wrong.
#19 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 10:18 am
Yeah, no worries, I guess all I would say is that the volumes of students going to Wales is not enough for it to be a big issue?
I guess if a Scottish lawyer made a legal challenge it would get more headlines but it doesn’t sound unfair to me.
#20 by Malc on August 22, 2011 - 1:16 pm
Wales isn’t quite doing the same as Scotland. They still charge fees to Welsh students, and they allow their universities to charge up to £9,000. What they are doing is covering the difference between the previous tuition fee per year (around £3,200 I think?) and the new fee – but they are only doing this for Welsh students. I guess in principle, its a similar deal – it discriminates based on where you stay – but in practise its a different method.
#21 by Random Lurking Scotsman on August 22, 2011 - 2:16 pm
They’ve controlled student fees for Welsh students, and done what you’ve said for Welsh residents who go to Scotland, England and NI. Not as good as full taxpayer funding, but still better than the English system.
Scotland has less residents than England, so I’d imagine that the burden to Scottish taxpayers for funding undergrad education is far less than it would be in England.
I’ve always thought that the UK government should slash places back so they can fund those who would fully benefit, and those who might be better outside of an academic environment could do something else as university isn’t the best path for all. Sadly, though, the Tories (I consider the Lib Dems largely irrelevant in this) are so slash happy any alternatives have dried up long ago.
It’s quite a sad state of affairs, and there are many English residents who would like to fund HE from general taxation rather than loans. Sadly, the power’s with a Tory south-east who demand the social democratic North follow their way, and so all England suffers for a few in one region to benefit at the expense of the many. Until that changes, there won’t be any movement.
#22 by Home Rule for England on August 22, 2011 - 10:22 am
I would like to see devolution for England on the Scottish model. An English Government could then introduce required minimum fees of £30,000 a year for Scottish students studying in England! English and EU students could be charged the much lowerate!
#23 by Indy on August 22, 2011 - 9:04 pm
Erm – Scots voted for parties which wanted to keep tuition free. English people didn’t.
We are all getting what we voted for.
#24 by Doug Daniel on August 22, 2011 - 10:28 am
“Just last month, Scottish students and their parents, as part of the wider Scottish population, voted for an SNP majority”
Didn’t realise there was an election in July, Jeff 😛
#25 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 10:39 am
Bah, I guess the SNP has done so little in its first 100 days that I didn’t realise how much time has passed.
Or, you know, it’s a typo clanger….!
#26 by Erchie on August 22, 2011 - 9:23 pm
Wow!
That was Graceless Jeff!
#27 by tally on August 22, 2011 - 10:34 am
It was Scottish and Welsh MP’s who were the deciding factor in bringing in uni fees in England the first place.A majority of English MP’s were against the introduction of fees. How the fuck you scotch twats get away with it i don’t know.
#28 by Doug Daniel on August 22, 2011 - 10:56 am
Nice. I’m not sure what’s more insulting – calling us “scotch” or calling us “twats”.
How we get away with it is this: we voted for a government that wants to do the best for all the people of Scotland, rather than a government that only cares about the rich. That government then makes decisions that it feels will benefit the majority rather than the powerful minority. Perhaps the people of England should think about that the next time they try to impose a right-wing government on the rest of the UK.
#29 by Random Lurking Scotsman on August 22, 2011 - 4:03 pm
Actually, the introduction of university fees comes from a tradition of certain London-based newspapers that love the trappings of social democracy but yet scream about the fact that “the government wants to take away our money” when faced with the tax levels necessary to pay for a social democratic society.
Tution fees were a consequence of the expansion of higher education in a society where the idea of funding anything through taxpayer money has become increasingly alien. British Rail, the gas and electricity boards, perhaps soon the English NHS were all torn apart and sold off to the highest bidder because of people arguing that they wanted to “keep more of their money” and electing politicians who promised them they could do so, although in the long run they were setting them up for soaring prices.
Here is the fundamental question at the heart of all the issues: do you want social democracy, or do you want a libertarian society? In Scotland, we’ve chosen a social democratic society and tried our best to implement that with the resources we’re given to the howls of the Daily Mail and Telegraph.
In England, there does appear to be a confusion about what kind of society the public wants. A significant proportion want the benefits of social democracy, with its extensive taxpayer funded services, but yet scream hysterically at the idea of giving up the necessary money, which would mostly come from those at the very top of society (I don’t think the inhabitants of the City would suffer too greatly, somehow). Until this fundamental confusion is solved, there’s not much of a path forward.
#30 by Paul Cairney on August 22, 2011 - 10:41 am
I think the ‘voting for the Tories, getting higher fees’ is misleading since Labour would also have received the Browne report and inherited its own economic crisis. And not everyone voted Tory. I also think we need to be more aware of an English perspective – they see Scotland receiving more per capita than England, based largely on the argument that it costs more to deliver the same public services (or perhaps even that Scotland is relatively deprived and needs more welfare/ social investment). Free tuition does not seem to be a good use of funds in that context (and Scotland is generally the 4th best performing region in the UK). Therefore, this is a good principled objection and I’d like it to be successful in those terms.
#31 by Doug Daniel on August 22, 2011 - 11:07 am
That may be the perception in England – that the Scots are effectively “subsidence junkies” – but it’s not the whole story, is it? I’m not sure why Scottish students should suffer (which they will, if this objection succeeds) just because people in England voted for a government that has its priorities all wrong.
#32 by lionel on August 22, 2011 - 10:49 am
“It was Scottish and Welsh MP’s who were the deciding factor in bringing in uni fees in England the first place.A majority of English MP’s were against the introduction of fees. How the fuck you scotch twats get away with it i don’t know”
maybe, and that is a constitutional matter that needs solving. A discussion for another time.
The bottom line is that the UK has 4 countries and 4 governments and only one of those four is making its student populace pay full whack. That is their decision. For those in England to complain or mount legal challenges in Scotland is colonial arrogance at its disgusting worst.
You get the government you vote for along with its policies. We in Wales, Scotland and N Ireland voted one way, England voted another. Time the English respected the constitutional situation and stopped pretending that nothing has changed in the last 20 years until it suits them.
#33 by Alexander Belic on August 22, 2011 - 10:56 am
Scotland might have 10% of England’s population but there are 14 Scottish Unis to England’s 91 which makes 15%.
I wonder what effect a separate Scottish Admissions Service would have, given that it’s already cheaper to study in virtually any other EU country for an English person but we’re not seeing quite the same glut in applications made to Trinity, Twente or Trondheim.
#34 by An Duine Gruamach on August 22, 2011 - 8:12 pm
It’s a pity to break the alliteration, but Trondheim isn’t in the EU :p
#35 by Alexander Belic on August 24, 2011 - 1:14 pm
You are correct, but Norway does still offer the same terms to EU Nationals as it does to its own citizenry, perhaps a relic of the deals it had in place with Sweden and Denmark.
I’m pretty stuck to think of another University that teaches in English and begins with T, I think I’ll have to guess at Toulouse ot Trieste.
#36 by Nobby Clark on August 22, 2011 - 10:59 am
Don’t forget that you jocks voted in the May 2010 election as well, whereas we had no say in what happened in your devolved election.
#37 by Doug Daniel on August 22, 2011 - 11:09 am
I’m guessing you don’t understand what “devolved” means then?
#38 by Home Rule for England on August 22, 2011 - 1:18 pm
In this case it seems to mean that Scottish voters will have a vote on both Scottish education and English education! We English only get to vote on English education!
#39 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 1:35 pm
I don’t see how Scots have a say over English education when England voted for a Tory majority and the governing Tory/LD coalition delivered Tory policy almost immediately. Where is the problem? What does it matter if Scottish Labour/SNP MPs voted the other way? (I daresay many of them won’t have voted at all).
#40 by Tony on August 22, 2011 - 3:42 pm
Nob
‘Jockland’ unfortunately is at present part of ‘greater Engurland’ until such times as we become independent. Till that glorious day arrives we get to vote in your elections…………..sorry about that guv *tips hat* And of course you have a say in what happens in our election, where do you think the unionist parties get their funding from, Scotland? Pfft!!!!
Good article btw Jeff.
#41 by CassiusClaymore on August 22, 2011 - 11:37 am
Living up to your name there, Nobby! Good work.
All joking apart, the unfortunately-named Nobby is a victim of the shocking reporting of this by the BBC and others.
At the risk of repeating myself – English students will be eligible if they are ordinarily resident in Scotland. Scottish students will not, if they are ordinarily resident in Scotland. It’s not about your nationality – it’s about where you live.
You would not know this from watching or listening to the BBC.
CC
#42 by Paul Cairney on August 22, 2011 - 11:39 am
“We in Wales, Scotland and N Ireland voted one way, England voted another”
This too seems misleading. We did not have a referendum on tuition fees and there is almost no evidence to suggest that people voted SNP to reduce fees or Tory to increase them. Plus any social attitudes surveys I have seen suggests that Scottish/ English attitudes to fees are very similar. Further, most of these surveys suggest a very mixed desire among devolution-minded Scots: to have devolved responsibilities but to maintain a degree of policy uniformity to maintain the idea of ‘social citizenship’. Too many of these debates become too defensive too quickly.
#43 by CassiusClaymore on August 22, 2011 - 11:42 am
As an aside, I’d be interested to know if English students (ordinary ones, not the tiresome little trainee politicians) actually care about this. After all, they’re being charged the same in Scotland as they are in England. It’s the very definition of equality.
CC
#44 by Hendre on August 22, 2011 - 11:59 am
From the BBC article:
He believes that ministers in Scotland have “misinterpreted the law”…. Mr Shiner said the Scottish fees system contravened the European Convention on Human Rights and could also be in breach of Britain’s Equality Act.
As it me, or does our Mr Shiner appear all over the place? There may be a loophole of sorts in EU law which allows students within the same EU state to be treated differently for the purposes of tuition fees. Why isn’t he targeting that more specifically rather than throwing the whole kitchen sink at the matter? Unless of course he’s more interested in challenging the principles of devolution.
#45 by Steve on August 22, 2011 - 12:42 pm
Will Scottish students have to pay fees to study in England?
#46 by Steve on August 22, 2011 - 12:45 pm
@CC The extra year in Scotland will put some off I imagine.
#47 by Dr William Reynolds on August 22, 2011 - 12:55 pm
Finland (same population as Scotland) manages to provide free education for all foreigners,irrespective of where they come from.Their generosity is not limited to EU citizens.Of course they control all of their income,as an independent Scotland would. Since I have experience of the multicultural nature of Finnish higher education,an independent Scotland need have no fear of an influx of students from the EU.I don’t know whether and independent Scotland would be as generous as the Finns,and offer it to everyone,but they would certainly have the resouces to cope with students from the EU.It is also useful to remember that Scotland is not the only EU country that offers free education.Many EU students do chosse to study in Finland because education is free.It is also intersting that the finnish government are giving the same support for Finnish students who chosse to study in Estonia.
Finally to talk about Scottish students is somewhat misleading.Free education is provided by the Scottish government to all who live in Scotland,irrespective of ethnicity..When we consider that the Scottish government only has control of a very small proportion of Scotlands income,that is a very generous offer.It is also a very outward looking attitude based on a recognition that the wealth and prosperity of a nation is partly based on an educated population.Of course with independence,a Scottish government could achieve much more.For that reason,I hope that Jeff is wrong in his assumption that the Yes vote in the referendum will not be successful.
#48 by Angry Albion on August 22, 2011 - 1:23 pm
You know all this ‘it’s a devolved issue’ would be valid, if we English too had a devolved government. But we don’t. So we get policies foisted on us by Scots, Welsh and N.Irish MP’s who are so under-employed at Westminster that sticking their noses into Englands affairs is all they ahve to do.
#49 by Jeff on August 22, 2011 - 1:38 pm
Of course devolution is a valid, that is the existing democratic political structure of the United Kingdom!
If those in England want an English Parliament or English independence even, campaign for it, vote for the English Democrats and let democracy run its course. Don’t lament the existing structure that is in place and blame Scotland for the perceived unfairness.
I think you have a valid complaint but the real challenge is finding a solution, not harping on about the known problems.
#50 by CassiusClaymore on August 22, 2011 - 1:53 pm
Angry Albion – you know that English MPs can – easily -outvote all the others put together?
I’m sure you also know that SNP MPs do not vote on matters which do not involve Scotland.
CC
#51 by Paul Cairney on August 22, 2011 - 2:23 pm
Angry Albion has a point if we remember recent history. The introduction of tuition fees in 2004 was on the back of Scotland and Wales Labour MPs, who propped up the government during a big Labour rebellion. They did the same for foundation hospitals in 2003. I think the SNP voted on at least one of those issues, arguing that it had implications for Barnett.
#52 by Doug Daniel on August 22, 2011 - 2:50 pm
Indeed, Scottish Labour MPs have no scruples. SNP MPs, on the other hand, have a general rule of not voting on English matters, unlike, as you say, if they have an impact on the block grant Scotland receives. I’m not sure why anyone would think this is unreasonable, however, especially as this tends to take the form of trying to prevent damaging measures being introduced in England (and always failing, since the government that England votes for always has the upper hand).
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article7108991.ece
“In the last but one Parliament, SNP MPs voted against the introduction of foundation hospitals and student top-up fees in England, but only on the grounds that they would lead to a reduction in cash for Scotland, through the Barnett Formula.”
#53 by Indy on August 23, 2011 - 9:09 am
Does he have a point? Did the Tories not win outright in England? That means most people who voted in England voted for tuition fees. Ergo students in England pay tuition fees. Whereas the najority of people in Scotland voted for a party which had ruled out tuition fees. There is no unfairness therefore – people in both Scotland and England are getting what they voted for, no?
#54 by Hendre on August 22, 2011 - 2:24 pm
Mr Shiner as quoted in The Guardian:
“The argument about domicile and nationality doesn’t hold water. If being Welsh, English, Irish or Scottish is not a matter of national origin then it makes a nonsense of the establishment of parliaments in each place.”
Mr Shiner seems unfamiliar with the concept of regional or subnational tiers of government, as they might be termed (though obviously not by many in this part of the blogosphere!).
#55 by John on August 22, 2011 - 5:01 pm
England should stop giving the subsidy drunk, bitter and twisted, feeble and irrelevant little non-English EU Regions of the “UK†Billions of Pounds every year via the ‘sacred’ Barnett Formula, and with the money saved can then introduce free Tuition, prescriptions etc in England, while the Scottish, Welsh and N Irish EU Regions will then have to begin charging their students after the English Cash-cow dries up, or rather tells them where to go!. The Scottish, Welsh and N Irish EU Regions will then no doubt go begging cap in hand to Mother Brussels as they know they need to get their subsidy from some fools! and their new EUnionist owners in Brussels will fit and foot the bill!, which is exactly why Scottish EU Regional Governor Salmond is so fanatically Pro EUSSSR, Scotland truly is a pathetic little Region.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6899/pleasemotherbrusselsscoxb1.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6582/wallacestatuesubsidy.jpg
#56 by Tormod on August 22, 2011 - 5:39 pm
Do you write articles and comment on Labour Hame? Jumping the Shark too quickly laddie!
#57 by Scotsfox on August 22, 2011 - 6:19 pm
Sounds good to me as you seem to be describing Independence for Scotland. Of course when we cease to get a block grant you will also cease to get our revenues from natural resources. Let’s see who needs to get the begging bowl out.
#58 by Rev. S. Campbell on August 22, 2011 - 10:06 pm
Clearly it’s the English education system that has a funding gap, judging by the state of that post. Maybe they need higher tuition fees.
#59 by Brian Nicholson on August 22, 2011 - 5:33 pm
I always find it interesting to see the whining of some English posters about Scottish MP’s voting on areas that are devolved in Scotland, but not in England and then completely forgetting that English MP’s force their will on Scots on every non-devolved matter.
It is time to resolve this by placing all matters under Scottish and English control by giving both countries independence from the failed union.
Our missions are the same and it is better to place your energy to that end than to spew bile at those who want for Scotland the very thing you want for England.
An Independent England and an Independent Scotland.. partners in a progressive future.
#60 by Barbarian on August 22, 2011 - 7:07 pm
Without going into details, let me say that I know rather a lot about student finance.
This is not about Scotland vs England – this is about European Law being used in various countries to the detriment of the UK as a whole, never mind Scotland.
Swinney may be onto a loser here, and for two reasons:
1. Other EU countries students are entitled to the same support as those domiciled in Scotland. Domiciled refers to living in Scotland for 3 continuous years prior to the start of the course.
2. Swinney is trying to turn EU law on its head by trying to stop EU students being supported.
Do not blame the Westminster government for this one blame Brussels and certain court cases in mainland Europe.
#61 by Dr William Reynolds on August 22, 2011 - 8:03 pm
Not sure that Swinney is tryiing to stop EU students being supported (as Barbarian suggests).I got the impression that the SNP government was willing to support all students living in Scotland to the limits of the pocket money (less than 20% of Scottish income).Nothing to do with blaming Westmister government,more to do with acknowledging the limitations of the powers of the Scottish government.
#62 by Barbarian on August 22, 2011 - 8:48 pm
William,
Leaving aside the original decision to bring in tuition fees – whats done is done, the main problem is Europe.
European students are entitled to fee support, and more crucially, student loans.
Student loans are repaid via the tax system (the old mortgage style loans went out in 2000). This system is actually surprisingly fair and few students will repay the full amount anyway.
Very few EU students actually make any repayments at all. That is on top of the high cost of subsidising a student through university or college.
Swinney is right to challenge this, since £75 million a year is a huge amount of money that has little if any benefit to Scotland. But the court cases, notably in Germany, have had a huge impact on the whole process.
I for one do not want to see Scotland turning into a free-for-all where students from everywhere get cheap education then bugger off back to their countries.
I’ve been going onto a lot of blogs tonight and there is a lot of misinformation out there. Too many nationalists are jumping on the “it’s a unionist ploy” or “nationalists want everything paid by us” bandwagons.
Everyone is missing the key problem and that is European Law. If the SG loses this, then they will not be able to blame Westminster this time, and it leaves a problem for next year where Scottish universities will be swamped by applications from English students. The only advantage that Scottish students have is at clearing, since their results come out a week early.
It is a complicated issue, and that is why these students are using EU laws. I don’t know how it will come out, as I am no lawyer, but the SG will not be as confident as they appear publicly. I do want them to win, but I am concerned.
#63 by haarandrime on August 22, 2011 - 10:01 pm
Just a thought: will this go to the Supreme Court? If so what are the implications then.
#64 by Hendre on August 23, 2011 - 9:51 am
Following up on Barbarian’s points, can you go to law to demand convergence of policy WITHIN a EU state, especially when the policy is underpinned by an electoral mandate? Has it ever been attempted before?
I think Phil Shiner is getting into some quite knotty constitutional matters, rather than the open and shut discrimination case he seems to think it is.
#65 by Barbarian on August 23, 2011 - 7:05 pm
I think you are correct, but seeing what European Law has come up with in the past makes anything possible.
I’ve tried to look at how the SG could object to this challenge, but it’s difficult. The EU students getting similar support I think is what is the main problem.
Any lawyers out there?!?
#66 by Christopher Crawford on August 24, 2011 - 10:50 am
Finland offers free education to all foreign students, irrespective of where they come from. If Scotland was recognized as a nation and had control of all of its income, I would be happy to see Scotland being as generous as the Finns. Sadly we are still viewed as a region of a state called the UK and control less than 20% of Scotland’s. Under the circumstances, the Scottish Government is being generous in providing free education for all students living in Scotland, irrespective of where they come from.
It was Westminster which decided English-based students should pay for their higher education, not Holyrood! Once Westminster had decided to use this model to fund higher education there were Barnett consequentials which meant that Scotland’s (and Wales’ and Northern Ireland’s) education budgets suffered a shortfall. The only options were/are to follow the Westminster model and charge fees for all students, or follow the Westminster model and charge fees for all students whose domicile is under the direct governance of Westminster.
The money has to come from somewhere because it is no longer coming as part of the block grant, so we can only do what Westminster decrees, i.e. charge students who are normally resident in England a fee. Why give them a discount at the Scots expense?
Unless I’m mistaken, some states in the south of Germany (which have fiscal autonomy) charge tuition fees, whereas those in Northern Germany do not. Students who parents live in Southern Germany need to pay fees, even if they go to Universities in the North. Those who parents live in say Berlin do not pay.
Situations akin to Scotland and England exist all over Europe. It’s called DEMOCRACY.
This legal ‘challenge’ is absurd. Politically motivated I think.
#67 by daveinmaryburgh on August 24, 2011 - 4:22 pm
Interesting article in the guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/aug/24/scotland-university-fees-human-rights?CMP=twt_gu
In particular “Therefore, if the claim against the UK were to succeed, the UK Parliament would be forced to rectify the breach. This has the potential to be politically explosive as Westminster would be forced to interfere in the domestic arrangements specifically devolved to Scotland. It is inconceivable at the moment that Westminster would abolish tuition fees in England. They could, however, be forced therefore to overrule the devolved institutions and harmonise the fees across the UK.”
Was wondering if the case did go to trial, and Mr Shiner won, would the UK government impose fees on Scotland and I would assume Wales and NI if they are doing similar (Thanks for the clarification Malc).
If the prospect of having to impose fees on the Devolved parliaments would influence the decision, if so what fallout would there be for the UK government from their supporters in England.
#68 by Barbarian on August 24, 2011 - 8:06 pm
Westminster cannot impose fees, since education is devolved.
But losing the case would put a big hole in the education budget. Higher education costs are rather higher, and certainly more that £9K per annum.
#69 by Hendre on August 25, 2011 - 10:11 am
Constitutionally, Westminster can do anything… it’s sovereign. But as the Guardian article points out, the politics are very tricky.
Say, for example, the Scottish Government switches to the Welsh system of charging ‘full’ English-style fees while providing grants to its domiciled students to meet the costs of the fees, what then for Mr Shiner?
I vaguely remember that the old maintenance grants were handed out by local authorities at their discretion, with variations between authorities. So in a sense we’ve never had uniformity of treatment.