I sometimes tell a story from my High School years that still gets a good laugh. It involves myself and a few friends throwing snowballs at cars from a fence at the bottom of a big grassy hill in a park. We had a pretty rubbish aim but for one poor driver, each snowball hit the target – the driver-side window which was rolled down halfway. We thought nothing of it after the cheers and carried on until we heard a roar from behind us. Said driver was careering down the hill towards us, having driven his car (deliberately) through the fence at the top of the hill in a rage. My friends ran off to the side and got away easily. I, stupidly, ran up the hill, one slip no doubt resulting in a well-deserved beating from this man. A series of garden runs followed to get away and we survived intact. What great fun. We were fourteen.
The violence and thuggery that we are seeing on London’s streets is of course a far cry from throwing a few snowballs; however, we disrespected this man’s car as much as the rioters disrespected a family’s furniture shop last night and we disrespected wherever it was he might have been going as much as rioters are disrespecting the impact of families being homeless.
The activity over the past few nights has been mindless but it is tiring and frustrating to be the same person for the entirety of our lives and getting out of our minds is something that we all do. Getting drunk on a weekend night, playing Grand Theft Auto, blasting music at top volume, grooving like a maniac on the dancefloor or even just going to the cinema. Escaping ourselves has become a modern necessity and for some people that escape is less easy than it is for others.
I’m no psychologist so I won’t embarrass myself by trying to talk about the correlation between a lack of strong parental figures and a disrespect for private property, police and other people and the frustration and boredom that that can bring but families that have broken down in some way shape or form have to come into this somewhere. A marriage tax allowance won’t fix it but the police asking the public ‘Where are your kids?’ is getting closer to a solution.
Don’t get me wrong, the violence and damage that was visible last night, the two nights before and, no doubt, for the next few evenings is indefensible and intolerable. It is a choice of whether you’re with Cameron, Boris and May or the rioters and I am firmly with the former camp, whatever they choose to do. I’ve believed for a while that gangs of youths up to no good should not be indulged with the softly-softly policing approach that is no doubt employed with good intentions but, rather, these groups should be hit for six by a no-nonsense police hardcore to get them off the streets, interrogated individually to understand what drives them to cause problems and then solutions proposed by the state accordingly.
I see no reason why similar tactics shouldn’t be employed tonight including, if need be and safely employed, water cannons, tazers, rubber bullets, the army and tear gas. Kids throwing snowballs is one thing but David Cameron is back at the helm now, a COBRA meeting is taking place as I type and the kids need to know they don’t run the streets.
So, mindless violence? Yes. Understandable? In our heart of hearts, it has to be a yes.
Cast your mind back to when you were in your teens and I’d be surprised if, even a tiny bit, you couldn’t appreciate how fun it might be to play cat and mouse with police and be on tv each night.
#1 by Stuart Winton on August 9, 2011 - 9:17 am
Excellent post, Jeff, but I’m not sure if it’ll go down too well with the dominant Better Nation ethos, or indeed that of Scotland’s chattering class more generally.
But it would be interesting to compare the reaction of progressives and socialists to events of the last few days as to their take on the likes of the student demonstrations earlier this year.
Assuming their is a difference – from some, if not all – is it because of the perpetrators or perhaps the targets of their, er, discontent, or both?
#2 by Richard on August 9, 2011 - 9:29 am
Kids causing trouble for fun is nothing new. Organised trouble in some cause or other is nothing new either. What is new here, is the level of organisation involved in causing trouble for what seems like nothing more than kicks.
That is both worrying and confusing.
#3 by Caron on August 9, 2011 - 9:54 am
Where to start? Scapegoating single mothers – because that’s effectively what you mean – is not the answer to this.
The violence is mindless but it’s being incited and organised by a few people who have no respect for democracy and the rule of law. They need to be found and brought to justice.
Most of the people taking part in this will not have jobs, nor will they have much in the way of qualifications – that’s your answer in part. Consigned to a life of poverty, and not being able to see a way out.
I’m slightly concerned by your assertion that you’re with Cameron, Boris and May or the rioters. I’ll stay with them as long as their actions are proportionate. They could go too far in their response and that would be intolerable.
It is very scary though – it seems inevitable that lives will be lost. I hope I’m wrong, but if it goes on the way it is……….
Rather than fill the prisons with the people responsible, they should be made to clear up the communities they have destroyed.
The awful thing is that, given the economic climate, the money it will cost to carry out the clear up will have to be taken from somewhere. In this climate. So people who rely on public services will suffer even more.
#4 by Jeff on August 9, 2011 - 7:22 pm
I can’t get past or over your first sentence Caron. Scapegoating single mothers? Wow. Does it not get tiring being so morally indignant all the time? I only talked of “a lack of strong parental figures”, gender free you should have noted and, if we’re going to go for crass generalisations, the only people I am blaming therefore I suppose are absent fathers.
#5 by Jon Blackwood on August 9, 2011 - 10:22 am
I think that this all boils down to (lack of) trust in the police and people’s differing perspectives on their role.
A variety of the diverse communities in Tottenham have had an extreme distrust of the police for 30+ years. Policing can only be based on the consent of the community, and that consent has, at best, been grudgingly given in that part of London for as long as anyone can remember. It may be difficult to grasp for someone who has lived their whole life in Scotland, whose only experience with the police has been one of courtesy and kindness when a house has been burgled, a car stolen or a relative mugged. It really is a whole different world in places like Tottenham; an atmosphere of mutual suspicion and distrust developed over many years can be almost impossible to put right- especially if the police’s response to certain incidents can be perceived as high handed/unfeeling/needlessly brutal.
Policing such a sensitive area requires something that police and politicians aren’t allowed by the media- time, and patience. It takes many, many years and a concentration of a particular type of policeman (i.e. a thinking one, rather than one whose first instinct is to reach for the pepper spray), a lot of investment in community initiatives, a lot of close working with social services and the local authorities to identify hotspots. It also requires understanding the community that the police serves and the reasons as to why trust can break down to such a catastrophic degree that property is destroyed and innocent bystanders either hurt or having their livelihoods burnt to the ground. It also requires the police to identify and act upon particular crimes that are of most concern to local people and reduce them aggressively and continuously. Only out of a positive combination of these factors, and a good slice of luck, over many years, can the situation be turned around. It’s worth noting that, as an aside, funding for local youth initiatives in this area have been cut by 75-80% since this government came to power. Some “saving”, that, when scenes like these are an indirect result.
Its why the knee-jerk calls last night on twitter and to a lesser extent on this thread for people to have their heads broken/send the army in/wipe these scumbags out and do us all a favour/no excuses/down with this sort of thing, are so depressing. Such robotic, unthinking, knee jerk responses will only make the situation much worse, both in the short and the long term. In the short term, by pouring petrol on the flames of local grievances: in the long term, by further widening the gulf in trust between police and public, making it more difficult for that rift ever to be healed.
I’m not excusing the rioters nor condoning what they have done. If people can be identified from the TV nicking things and/or being responsible for petrol bombs or theft or assault- fine; prosecute them and lock them up, if convicted. No one’s going to have a problem with that. But the source of the riot is a completely broken relationship between the state, its forces of law and order, and community in this part of the world, and the road ahead to fixing it is long and very uncertain.
What’s also clear is that mediocre right-wing demands for brutal and uncompromising police actions against gangs of youths will merely exacerbate the problems that caused the riot in the first place, both in the immediate and longer term, the only achievement of such actions being a brief moment of smug self-satisfaction for the middle class handwringer calling for it.
#6 by Jeff on August 9, 2011 - 7:11 pm
Jon, thanks for the intelligent and thorough response. I am afraid I disagree with some of what it is that I think you are saying.
First of all, I do agree with the point you’re making about cuts. They are not thought through and while it is crass to say that they are directly responsible for these riots; they will nonetheless have a damaging impact on society down the line.
Now.
‘Communities’ (a word that has been grossly overused of late) may well have issues with the police but the police is the police in the same way that the law is the law; they command respect by sheer dint of being the country’s law and order enforcers. This isn’t X-factor where areas can pick and choose when they respect the laws and police and when they don’t.
You say that going in hard on rioters will only exacerbate the problem. Perhaps; I did also say that all people that are taken off the streets need to be interrogated and their issues discussed and understood. If appropriate understanding and support are given at that stage, then problems can improve rather than deteriorate. At the end of the day though, sole traders and local markets deserve to have their stores protected to stop looting taking place and, from what I can see, that means that a much tougher approach is required compared to what we have seen in the past few nights.
I’ve seen Supernanny, kids respond to an enforcement of the rules and all I am suggesting is the toughest enforcement of Britain’s rules while being mindful of the underlying specific problems that these people who feel forced . How long are you suggesting police should stand back and watch gangs destroy buildings, displace families and rob sole traders?
#7 by Indy on August 9, 2011 - 10:02 pm
Would have to take some slight issue with the idea that the police command respect just by being the police. In terms of the sparking off points of riots – though just the sparking off point, after that they tend to take on a life of their own – dubious actions on the part of the police are quite often pertinent. E.g. people dying in police custody, elderly women collapsing when their houses are searched, and this latest incident when it turns out, surprise surprise, that the guy did not discharge a firearm after all, despite earlier police claims that he did,
Not that any of that is an excuse but it is the tendency of the Metropolitan Police in particular to attempt to conceal police errors that compounds the anger that those errors cause and has led to demonstrations that all too quickly turn into disorder.
If there is a lesson to be learned it is surely that the police ought to fess up when they have cocked up, instead of trying to cover up their mistakes.
#8 by Jon Blackwood on August 10, 2011 - 2:03 pm
I’m not really clear how Supernanny is relevant to all this, to be honest.
I didn’t take your call for ” these groups should be hit for six by a no-nonsense police hardcore to get them off the streets…including, if need be and safely employed, water cannons, tazers, rubber bullets, the army and tear gas…” as tongue in cheek. I still say such tactics will prove utterly counter-productive now and also later.
#9 by Jeff on August 10, 2011 - 2:39 pm
Well, in light of last night’s quieter situation in light of more bobbies on the street, I am now much more inclined to agree with you re: tear gas and rubber bullets etc being an unwise course of action. I still maintain that police and a Government can’t sit back while trouble escalates and escalates though.
As for Supernanny, she brings discipline to families’ lives and that same discipline was absent amidst all these riots. That’s the point I was trying to make there.
#10 by Douglas McLellan on August 9, 2011 - 11:23 am
Caron I dont think that Jeff was having a go at single mothers. I’d be very surprised if that was the case. Lack of respect for others, which starts from what kids learn in the home, is a key problem here.
It is one thing to protest, even take part in direct action (as if that has much effect), but this is so far removed from anything that a free, open, democratic society can possibly tolerate that it can brook no acceptance.
The idea that this is a few inciting the many is one that I find hard to believe. This was a large number of people signing up to violent acts to get their hands on whatever they could and do whatever damage they wanted. A message on a phone and a desire to take part is all that it took and all of those who can be caught should be and should be punished.
If the issues that caused this truly are things like lack of qualifications and no hope, no matter how hard someone tries, then it will take decades to fix as the problem is how many in these communities are letting their kids grow-up, having kids when no more than children themselves and perpetuating the cycle of no respect and no desire to help their communities.
As for your original point Jeff I dont know if I do understand. Two things that my parents drummed into me were respect for the police and teachers. Failure to do so resulted on them dropping on me like a ton of bricks. Respect for others and their property was something else that I learnt from a very young age. The idea that I could impact negatively on someone through my direct actions is one that I find abhorrent. I just cant get my head around what these people are doing.
#11 by Indy on August 9, 2011 - 2:14 pm
On an individual level what thee kids are getting up to is not that far from what the current Prime Minister and Mayor of London got up to when they were in the Bullingdon club. What was it David Cameron said again? He admitted things got a bit out of hand and they smashed the place up – Boris set fire to the toilets.
I think the point Jeff is making is that many perfectly respectable people can still identify with the urge to create mayhem. What stopped us is a fear of the consequences. That’s not just about fear of getting your collar felt, it’s about everything that goes with it – having a criminal record, not being able to get a decent job, not being able to afford a decent house, generally ruining your life etc. But if you have no prospects to begin with that’s less of an issue isn’t it?
#12 by Douglas McLellan on August 9, 2011 - 3:17 pm
No-one outside the illegal immigration/asylum system has no prospects in this country. No-one at all.
This country provides free education to age 18. This country provides free health care for life. This country has a welfare system that provides housing, welfare payments and payments for having children. This country provides training for the long-term unemployed. This country has legislation on issues such as race equality, police behaviour and the rights of individuals. This country has several layers of free, transparent democratic processes that allow everyone aged over 18 to help determine the direction of their communities & society.
At what stage can we say that state has put in place enough and that it is the responsibility of citizens and their children to engage with the structures that this country has put in place?
#13 by Douglas McLellan on August 9, 2011 - 3:18 pm
Meant to add – the illegal immigration/asylum system needs fixed so that those who can and should be allowed to engage with the structures of this society can do so quickly and with minimum hassle.
#14 by Indy on August 9, 2011 - 4:44 pm
You can say it at any stage you like, Douglas, it is whether people believe you or not.
It’s not just black kids in London who feel they have no prospects though. Plenty of youngsters in our own cities are feeling the same way. Youth unemployment is becoming a serious problem again – I think the stat is that one in five 16 to 24-year-olds is out of work. It is how you deal with that which is important. Politicians can’t magic up jobs out of thin air but they can at least act like they give a sh@t – or not.
We saw trouble on the streets the last time youth unemployment reached these kinds of levels, so it’s not all that surprising we are seeing them again is it?
Let me be clear I’m not saying youth unemplpyment is either the main cause or a justificatin for the rioting we have seen – but it helps explain why these kids don’t care.
#15 by Douglas McLellan on August 9, 2011 - 5:23 pm
I know you are not saying that youth unemployment is a justification and I accept that youth unemployment is a problem right now across the country.
What I struggle to accept is that these young people find what they are doing as acceptable. Unemployment is hard and dispiriting but these lootings were not about getting food or against the oppression of unfair employment practises. Rather it is about reckless violence and theft.
#16 by Indy on August 9, 2011 - 6:39 pm
Well I guess what I am saying is that in many young people, especially boys, there is actually a natural inclination to lawlessness and recklessness. In many ways the function of society is to repress that and channel the energy ino more constructive outlets. Sometimes things break down for a whole variety of reasons, including the sheer thrill of being bad.
#17 by Allan Rennie on August 9, 2011 - 11:24 am
Had started penning my own reply but then read Jon’s and decided I couldn’t put it better myself. Bravo sir!
#18 by Indy on August 9, 2011 - 12:14 pm
Broadly agree. There is no point trying to understand this through the mind of an adult – you have to understand it through the mind of a teenager. Though where I disagree is that I doubt there has ever been a point where teenagers uniformly respected private property, police and other people.
I am not so sure it has all been organised though. I think it is more likely that kids have been reacting to the perception that the police can’t control what is happening and feel that they may as well have a go too. It’s also about, basically, getting on the telly. That’s why they are setting fire to furniture shops – you get a more dramatic blaze so more likely to get the TV cameras there.
After this is over they may need to look at the way the police operate. I understand that they are now calling all officers in and putting them out on the streets. Maybe if they had done that from the start things wouldn’t have reached this stage. But they appeared to be relying on officers who had been trained in riot response to keep a lid on things and there just weren’t enough of them.
#19 by Tony on August 9, 2011 - 3:23 pm
An African lady migrant interviewed put it best;
“They do it because they can…………….where I come from they would be too afraid of the authoriies.”
I caused carnage at times with pals growing up when i could as well, a lot more than I would ever really admit too, whenever I couldn’t I didn’t until I grew out of it. The actuality of it is that there are no real other big factors if as jeff says we are honest. Have we to continually grasp at convenient straws that may well be arguable but serve no purpose at all.
There’s a row going on in the six counties at the moment with percieved political policing regarding softly softly approach to dealing with loyalist-often highly organised- violence and the policing experienced by nationalist youths in Ardoyne who object to the family friendly ‘orangefest’ which effectively makes them prisoners for the day on July 12th every year. Why not have parity of policing tonight and bring out the water cannon and rubber bullets allied with mass baton charges a la the Ardoyne.
Oh and I am no right-winger, just practical.
#20 by haarandrime on August 9, 2011 - 9:21 pm
Don’t know if this might add something to the debate but here is my story.
Me and my husband bought a house in Tottenham 32 years ago and lived there till we moved up here 4 years ago. The reason we bought the house was because it was the only place we could afford but the street was decent. Had 2 children there and it was about 3 minutes walk away from the big fire at the carpet store on Saturday night. Over the years we saw many changes, the Afro-Caribbean population that had bettered their lot began to move out towards Edmonton and Enfield. The empty houses were bought bought by landlords and used to house the homeless from other boroughs (much like the effect the Housing Benefit cuts will have in 2 years time) and we could chart where the wars were in other parts of the world by the different nationalities and ethnicities of the new residents. The churn in the local schools from the moving and leaving added to the already failing education system. The secondary school my children attended had more leavers go to prison than university. The area has high unemployment and a thriving black economy based on drugs, crime and gambling. Our street had a good community feel as have other areas of the borough and we were happy there. A lot of people have put their all into making it a better place. But as more buy-to-letters bought the empty properties the population became more transient and the surrounding streets were the sites of continual dumping of mattresses, furniture etc from the constant re-letting. Empty shops on the HIgh Road were replaced with betting shops and pound shops. Some things had improved over the years we lived there and a lot of re-generation has taken place. In the end we had had enough of the dumping, litter, and criminality and as we were loading up the van an elderly woman walked past saying ‘Someone has managed to escape’.
For a lot of people, not only the disaffected and/or criminal youth but elderly people as well there is no hope just despair. The problems facing Tottenham are multi-layered and hugely complex and won’t be solved any time soon. Lots of people have done a huge amount of work to re-generate the area and now and its breaks my heart to see the shops that I used to use burnt to the ground. But sitting here in Scotland watching on the riots I’m am glad I am not there. And finally, instead of Tottenham try replacing it with Hackney, Lewisham, etc. or any big city with deprived inner areas the problems are sam
#21 by Stuart Winton on August 10, 2011 - 12:34 am
Gosh, your street in Tottenham sounds a bit like my own little corner of Dundee, the only difference being that I didn’t manage to escape in time!
The problem as I see it is that the powers that be are more sympathetic towards those who just ruin the area rather than people like myself who try to do the right thing.
So in the end it ruins things for everyone, including those who are causing the problems, because if poverty or whatever is used to excuse their wrongdoing then they just carry on, thus have no chance of getting a job or whatever and joining ‘normal’ society.
Perhaps rather than saying that poverty causes the crime, it’s excusing crime by reference to poverty that causes the poverty – a vicious circle.
#22 by Jeff on August 10, 2011 - 6:54 am
Wow, great insight into what is going on. It does sound nigh on hopeless to turn some of these areas around sadly.
Thanks for posting.
#23 by Observer on August 10, 2011 - 8:44 pm
I think bad areas can be turned around, but it needs investment & we aren’t going to be seeing any of that.
I can understand having a sneaking sympathy at seeing kids take to the streets & stick two fingers up at a society which has let them down.
But after the events in Birmingham & elsewhere it has to stop, because people have died & the Police need to take what action is necessary to do that.