A guest post from Aidan Skinner – a Labour activist from Glasgow who considered the election through the prism of Monty Python.
At the (brutally frank and accurate) Refounding Labour Glasgow event last week it was remarked upon that, from a certain point of view, voters had the choice between two social democratic parties, one of which had a flag.
That may be the perception, and it’s one that Labour does need to address, but it’s not true. Not withstanding the fact that Labour is, of course, a democratic socialist party (says so on the tin back of the card in my wallet), the SNP aren’t a social democratic party, despite frequent claims to be. This, for me, was one of the more frustrating parts of the campaign. We indulged in vacuous Nat-bashing. We called them names, we insulted their ideology but we didn’t actually offer any critical analysis of their policies.
And there’s a lot to be critical of. As Neil Findlay pointed out in First Ministers Questions yesterday, they want to cut corporation tax even further than the Tories, and create a differential rate between Scotland and England. Now, the basic idea of cutting corporation tax itself is flawed. It will be ineffective because, like the broader Tory economic policy, it’s economically illiterate. Corporation tax is levied on profits, not revenue. The economic argument that a decrease in tax will increase investment ignores the reality that currently even potentially profitable projects are not being invested in. Across the EU there’s an effective, if unofficial, investment strike. Cutting corporation tax will, in all likelyhood, have no effect on investment in Scotland. At best it might encourage companies to bounce their profits through here, but that model clearly hasn’t done Ireland much long term good and, with the best will in the world, the Caymans have better weather.
It’s not even a progressive policy. It’s utterly, fundamentally, regressive. It will mean even deeper cuts to council services, to universities, to police and to schools than are already planned. Peter Robinson warned that it might be as much as £1.5bn, which is roughly the same amount as the entire cut from the block grant last year.
So the SNP are essentially proposing doubling the cuts to people’s services in order for companies’ taxes to be cut by a third. I don’t think that can be characterised as “social democratic” on any definition. We can see evidence of the disconnect between the SNP image as a social democratic party and their actual policy in other areas, such as the council tax freeze and free prescriptions which benefit the better off, but don’t do anything to help the least well off at all who didn’t pay those anyway.
Labour, on the other hand, went into the last Holyrood election proposing a new patient-centered, integrated National Care Service. We promised to implement the Living Wage, to look at non-profit forms of ownership of Scotrail when the franchise is up for renewal and to invest in the infrastructure necessary to support local communities generating their own renewable power and feeding the surplus into the national grid. There were hints of a new mode of production and enterprise based around co-operative principles.
We didn’t talk about them much, and we should have. People expect Scottish Labour to be a democratic socialist party. When I was knocking on doors and talking about our policies, that was what people responded to. They wanted strong, Labour, democratic socialist policies.
So, are we all social democratics now? Not really. I’m not even sure there are any social democratic parties in Scotland, let alone two.
#1 by Martinb on June 10, 2011 - 2:34 pm
While it’s true that the SNP do have a bit of a mixed approach, i think that trying to beat them up over a single policy is pushing it a bit.
Meanwhile, despite what it says on the tin, I’m really not seeing Scottish Labour diverging from the neoliberal economic agenda of the UK party.
Denial & projection much?
#2 by Aidan Skinner on June 10, 2011 - 2:43 pm
The bulk of the post is on corp tax, but I also point out two other policies which aren’t really social democratic in their effects given current financial climate – the council tax freeze and free prescriptions.
I’ll also point out that I’m not exactly uncritical of either Scottish or UK Labour here. Though I do think both are (finally) moving in the right (left) direction.
#3 by BM on June 10, 2011 - 3:00 pm
Not withstanding the fact that the SNP is, of course, a social democratic party (says so on the back of the card in my wallet), the Labour Party aren’t a democratic socialist party, despite frequent claims to be.
Council tax, privatisation, etc etc.
Look, I can play this game too!
#4 by Aidan Skinner on June 10, 2011 - 3:43 pm
Council tax which Labour introduced and the SNP abolished? No, wait… by privatisation I presume you mean PFI/PPP which Labour introduced and the SNP abolished? No, wait, not that either….
keep trying 🙂
#5 by Tony on June 10, 2011 - 4:43 pm
Not sure those are good examples Aidan as the council tax would now be abolished if not for labour and other British Unionist/Nationalist parties intransigence during the last Parliament. And all we have now is the legacy of the folly of PFI, which our weans will be paying for.
Also I’m surprised that you are still comparing what labour would have done had you been elected, when we know that labour in power results in various shades of nepotism. Various guises of dubious practice and the gravy train to the lords for those who last long enough not to get caught.
#6 by BM on June 14, 2011 - 7:46 am
Completing the privatisation of the railways, despite a manifesto commitment to reverse the situation. Trying to privatise Royal Mail, part privatisation of the NHS, etc, etc.
Supporting the continuation of the council tax, despite it being a regressive tax, when the opportunity to put into place a more progressive system was presented.
This isn’t a critique of what labour did right, or did well, but rather a signpost for your hypocrisy. You can’t criticise one party for not being ‘social democratic’ when your own party has failed to live up to it’s self-chosen label as a ‘democratic socialist’ party. Hiding behind the introduction of the minimum wage isn’t legitimate here since you won’t let the SNP hide behind any of their progressive policies, simply because they have one policy which has dubious merit.
#7 by Doug Daniel on June 10, 2011 - 3:16 pm
Come on Aidan, how can you seriously try to claim that the party that introduced tuition fees and prescription charges, began the privatisation of the NHS, wanted to privatise Royal Mail, carried on various other Tory reforms, fell in love with the banks and took us on two disasterous wars is a party of social democracy?
Labour became a neo-liberal party, because it was the only way to topple the Tories. They’ve yet to recover, and they won’t do so under Ed Miliband. Scottish Labour certainly won’t do so while the UK party needs the votes of the SE of England to get elected.
#8 by Aidan Skinner on June 10, 2011 - 3:39 pm
Labour in government introduced the minimum wage, worked for a huge fall in both absolute and relative child poverty, implemented devolution etc. etc.
Should we have done more? Yes. Was everything we did perfect? No. Are we to the left of the SNP? Depends on how you slice individual policies, but I think on balance we are.
#9 by JPJ2 on June 10, 2011 - 3:18 pm
Hi Aidan,
It was probably a mistake to refer us to the “Refounding Labour” blog as it does not seem to have caught up with your Holyrood defeat or have anything to say about Scotland at all.
#10 by Luke Nicholas on June 10, 2011 - 3:25 pm
As an outside observer (from Wales) one thing that strikes me as being obviously progressive is Alex Salmond’s concept of linking citizenship rights and benefits in Scotland to the idea of a “social wage”, that is, the state-provided services that the Scottish Government guarantees for its people, is a social wage on top of any money you earn. This is inherently progressive. Scottish Labour had its chance in power and the UK Labour party had a good decade at Westminster, and their equivalent to the SNP idea of a social wage was “we’re totally relaxed about people getting rich…as long as they pay their taxes”. The irony there is that on Labour’s watch tax avoidance and evasion reached epic proportions. On corporation tax there are issues, but the SNP’s record is consistently far more socialistic (with a small ‘s’) than Labour’s, on just about every single indicator.
#11 by Aidan Skinner on June 10, 2011 - 3:37 pm
#12 by Don on June 12, 2011 - 1:47 am
Sorry Aiden, you cite Labour’s living wage as evidence of their socialist creditions while condeming the SNPs council tax freeze as the poor don’t pay council tax. Yet the poor don’t benefit from the living wage either (if they earn the living wage, they generally pay council tax). Care to try again?
#13 by Jeff on June 10, 2011 - 3:32 pm
I’m not sure if Aidan’s getting a fair crack of the whip here (great article btw). I didn’t read the post as a full-bloodied defence of Labour’s social democratic credentials but rather a bemoaning of the glaring gaps in both the SNP and Labour’s claims to be fit to wear that Social Democratic badge.
For me, the true model of Social Democracy is Scandinavia, which might not be the utopia many claim, but it’s not far off and is streets ahead of Scotland in many ways. Decent pensions, a pretty tight inequality gap, social mobility as the bedrock of education/communities and a general minimum standard for social welfare/high income tax that keeps poverty at bay. Sweden’s Corporation Tax is 26.3%, Finland’s is 26%, Norway’s is 28% and Denmark’s is 25%. Scotland having a significantly lower Corporation Tax level than the 21%-26% (and dropping) rate that the UK enjoys, is something I’d struggle to get onboard with.
There is a risk that Scotland’s main parties want to wear the badge of social democracy without putting it into practice.
And hey, we all know the Greens are the true standard bearers on that score anyway…. 😉
#14 by Aidan Skinner on June 10, 2011 - 3:48 pm
I definitely agree that there are policies of both parties which are incompatible with social democracy (though I’d also argue that it’s a label that’s a better fit for Labour than the SNP, and that we also aspire to be further on the left)
#15 by Jeff on June 10, 2011 - 3:55 pm
Hmm, not convinced. PFI/PPP really tripped up those lefty SD credentials you’re reaching for. I dispute that the SNP is “enthusiastically” carrying on the tradition.
#16 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:20 pm
Well, only to the extent they aren’t building much in the way of new schools etc. Where they are commissioning new projects they are using PPP, they’re just doing less, not differently.
I’m not sure why PFI/PPP is such a left/right shibboleth though – it’s surely just poor procurement mixed with dodgy accounting? Particularly when the (UK) government started lending the PFI consortia the capital when the money markets dried up…. 😉
#17 by Una on June 10, 2011 - 11:51 pm
so if the snp model offered something similar to scandinavia (which I would support) would you support independence Aidan? or why not support independence and then build a social democratic labour party within it?
#18 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:23 pm
I support Home Rule, or FFA – think Scotland should have much power than it does now, but don’t see the point in trying to divvy up our embassies, armed forces etc. I also think Scotland has greater influence on the rest of the world and the rest of the UK within the UK than without.
So, thanks, but I’ll stay within the UK and work to rebuild the democratic socialist Labour party that exists within that 🙂
#19 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 9:02 am
Aidan, I’ll accept that you personally are aspiring to be further on the left.
But your party left you in 1994 when it decided that winning was more important than being right. Like Senator John Hoynes of Texas, I don’t know what you’re for, and I don’t know what you’re against. Except you seem to be for winning and against somebody else winning.
As Billy Bragg articulated last summer:
Once the Labour Party in Scotland regains its True North, it ought to be entirely sanguine about Independence and start working towards ensuring its aims and values are ensured before and after that event (or during that process, if you prefer)
#20 by Allan on June 10, 2011 - 7:50 pm
Isn’t that down to the mindset of Scandinavian’s Jeff? Im not to sure that full blodied Thatcherism and some of the less savoury aspects of New Labour (the erosion of people’s rights & benefits) would not go down well across there. I think as well that people put the quality of life a lot higher up their voting wish lists than people do here. Also is the personal tax rates higher than here, with not very much indirect taxation. (which is why those countries can afford lower corporation tax)?
#21 by Jeff on June 10, 2011 - 8:30 pm
Allan,
That no doubt is down to the mindset but I would argue that that mindset is truly social democrat and unashamedly so. I guess we won’t know for sure how Social Democratic Scotland could be until it gets fiscal autonomy, at least.
But anyway, Scandinavia does tend to have higher income tax rates, higher corporation tax rates and, yes, higher VAT. It’s a model that works as, across the board, there seems to be an acceptance that a safe, fair, wealthy, equal state with great education and excellent welfare has to be paid for.
#22 by douglas clark on June 10, 2011 - 3:33 pm
Och Aidan,
And who introduced PFI? Was it not the Broon manny?
Labour are Tories by any other name….
#23 by Aidan Skinner on June 10, 2011 - 3:40 pm
No, it was Ken Clarke. And the SNP have enthusiastically carried on with PPP so… uhm… your point is?
#24 by John Ruddy on June 10, 2011 - 5:52 pm
Indeed, of the over 300 new schools they claimed to have built, 7 of the ones in Angus are PPP schools, authorised by, er, the last Labour/Lib Dem Government in 2006.
And thats before I get to the proposed funding model for the new Brechin High School, where the much vaunted Scottish Futures Trust will give us not a large capital sum to build a new school, but a little bit each year to pay to a third party company who will build, own and maintain the school. Which sounds very similar to PPP.
#25 by Allan on June 10, 2011 - 7:55 pm
Actually it was Norman Lamont.
New Labour adopted it when they found that it was a handy way to rebuild hospitals & schools and keep the money to pay for these projects “off sheet”.
As a result of Jack McConnell’s likeness of the schemes, £800 million of public money was spent on school rebuilding projects in Scotland alone – for 2010/11.
#26 by Dubbieside on June 10, 2011 - 8:05 pm
The true cost of PFI.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/the-great-pfi-swindle-1.828737
One part of the article that is worth specific comment,
“Equity of just £100 invested in rebuilding Hairmyres Hospital in East Kilbride is projected to earn £89 million in dividends over 30 years, while half a million pounds of equity in the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary is expected to win dividends of £168m”
These figures are staggering. I do not think the SNP will take lessons from Labour about PFI.
#27 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:04 pm
“I do not think the SNP will take lessons from Labour about PFI.”
Maybe not, but they’re happy to take the credit for those projects built using it.
#28 by Dubbieside on June 11, 2011 - 12:41 pm
Interesting that two of the worst examples of PFI and the massive profits that the Labour partys friends made from them were from hospitals.
It is worth noting that the new hospital being built in Glasgow is not being financed by PFI. Which party commissioned that I wonder?
#29 by Allan on June 11, 2011 - 2:40 pm
Indeed, the hypocrisy when certain members of Renfrewshire Council went to open new (PFI funded) schools was astounding.
#30 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 3:27 pm
Another example in the recent Carnoustie by-election. SNP leaflets trumpetting the work they had done when in charge of the council – brand new (PPP) schools, brand new (PPP) A92 dual carriageway.
#31 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 8:53 am
If you’re prevented from borrowing, then where else are you going to get the capital from?
Ah, unless you’re in favour of full financial autonomy. And we all know what that’s called, don’t we?
(it’s the same argument re ‘passing on the Tory spending cuts’ as the SNP were criticised for in February by a certain claiming-to-be-left-of-centre Unionist Party – what *else* can you do when all you can spend is the pocket money you’re allowed? Unless you’re in favour of full financial autonomy)
#32 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 12:24 pm
Firstly, there’s a substantial difference between full fiscal autonomy and independence and there are other options between the status quo and FFA.
Secondly, the SNP government had other options – ending the council tax freeze for instance. They’d have had more if they hadn’t allowed the Scottish Variable Rate to lapse.
#33 by Alasdair on June 10, 2011 - 3:42 pm
I believe that the 1.5 billion pounds referred to by Peter Robinson is the cut to the Scottish Government (SG) block grant if corporation tax was controlled by Scotland. Of course the SG would still raise revenue through the tax. Whether it is less that the 1.5 billion or more (in the short term) will depend on the rate it is set.
Typical Labour to misrepresent the facts and suggest direct control of corporation tax is equivalent to a 1.5 billion cut in services. Seriously, is Aiden Skinner Andy Kerr’s proxy?
#34 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 1:52 pm
Sorry, I slightly mangled this point in the edit. You’re correct that £1.5bn is the cut in the block grant and some would be raised back – it’s not all gone.
At the rates Alex Salmond’s proposing, that would be about £600m, a gap of £800m which is the block grant reduction in 2013-2014 which is the earliest that this could be implemented.
I removed that to make the post a little less wonkish, but I do accept the implication that direct control is a £1.5bn cut in services is incorrect.
#35 by douglas clark on June 10, 2011 - 3:52 pm
Aidan Skinner,
Well, Broone the wee manny, certainly kept it going, didn’t he? A conservative idea adopted by labour, who’d have thunk it?
I seem to think we are trying to get away from all fiscal ideas beginning with the letter ‘P’. But you, Aidan Skinner are so thurled to messed up Labour policy that you just lurve the letter ‘P’. Well, you and Gordon Brown can go away and annoy someone else.
I’m sure you’ll both get a lordship. Brown of depression an Aidan of ‘not seeing how messed up it all was, but what the hell!’
#36 by Math Campbell on June 10, 2011 - 4:02 pm
See, you gave the game away a few comments back there Aidan –
“Are we to the left of the SNP? Depends on how you slice individual policies, but I think on balance we are”
Yes, Labour probably are to the left of the SNP. The SNP is a left-leaning social-democratic party.
Labour is a moderate-left socialist party.
Not socially-democratic. And I’d argue that they’ve lost even some of the hard-core socialist values, so in reality it’s actually more of a socially-left/fiscally-right party.
Sure, you support gay-marriage. Great.
And you support a tax-break for multi-billionaire retail companies that are helping to decimate small-business town-centre retailers. Not so great.
That’s the dichotomy I’m talking about – Labour might have the social policies of a social-democrat party but your fiscal policies (which of course all have massive bearing on society as a whole) are pretty right wing by Scottish standards.
Student loans, student FEES(!), privatised healthcare, the privatising of local-government services to dubious and possibly illegal arms-length companies run by dodgy pals of the councillors (as a Glasgow Labour activist I’m sure you can ring up your good pal Steven Purcell for details about this!), support for nuclear energy in a country that’s going to be 100% dependent on renewables by the end of the decade, support for nuclear weapons (this from the party that practically RAN the CND back in the day), privatising Royal Mail, the list goes on.
Labour are not the party of progress any more. Probably why your membership is dwindling and why ours is rocketing. I’ve lost count of how many new members we have locally in the last month, but we get a “new member” e-mail at least every day!
#37 by DougtheDug on June 10, 2011 - 4:26 pm
Not withstanding the fact that Labour is, of course, a democratic socialist party (says so on the tin back of the card in my wallet), the SNP aren’t a social democratic party, despite frequent claims to be.
The primary difference between the economic policies of Labour and the SNP is that Labour want Scotland to be funded by a block grant at a rate set by the Conservatives slash and burn public funding policies in England while the SNP wants Scotland to raise and spend its own revenues.
#38 by Dr William Reynolds on June 10, 2011 - 4:32 pm
Possibly there is a need to define what Social Democrat means.If it means looking after those who are straining to pay the bills,to have access to good local health care,access to free education,feeling safe from crime,having a living wage etc then the SNP look like a Social Democratic party.Many regard labour as having moved away from core socialist values and even describe them as the new Tories.Personally,I think labeling is a nonsense,although I regard myself as being left of centre on many issues.The important thing is that politicians are sensitive to the priorities of voters.Perhaps labour realised that at the last moment before the May election.That might explain why they decided to steal so many SNP policies that they had argued against for four years.
my guess is that many voters turned away from labour because they felt that labour were not listening to them and were not sensitive to their priorities.The SNP had a good track record in government,were well led,had impressive front bench politicians,and always stands up for Scotland’s interests.As the world changes,Scots are more self confident and more ambitious for their country,as well as inspirational for themselves and the kind of society they want to live in.That is what labour needs to think about.
#39 by Indy on June 10, 2011 - 4:55 pm
The point of having control of corporation tax is simply that if you are on the periphery of the economic centre you need every tool you can get hold of in order to compete.
I heard Jim Mather speak about this once. His own company was taken over and then basically moved down to London. So the people went with it. What is the saying again? The finest sight a Scotsman sees is the high road which leads to London. That applies to businesses and people both doesn’t it?
Scotland will always have to find ways to compete against the magnetic pull of London and the south east. This will be the case whether or not we are independent. But without even trying to use every advantage we can find, all we will ever be is a branch line economy.
I am not sure why corporation tax has become some kind of a shibboleth however as Jim Mather was always very clear that it is just one tool out of many.
And it may be that the economic conditions have changed so much that it would be less useful now. However the argument that you can’t be a social democrat and use corporation tax as a lever is somewhat undermined by the fact that countries like Sweden have done just that.
I have to say I get really sick and fed up as well of these arguments about who is the most left wing which seems to be based on the notion that you have to be positively anti-business to qualify as a social democrat.
Absolute nonsense. The countries Jeff mentions are regularly rated as among the most economically competitive in the world. You do not have to make a choice between having high quality universal public services and a competitive economy. They are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite. That is what the example of Scandinavian social democracy shows surely.
#40 by John Ruddy on June 10, 2011 - 5:57 pm
The thing about the corporation tax thing is this. It is levyed on profits, which most start-up companies and small business dont make (or at least not much). And its a well know statistic that its SMEs that create most new jobs. So how is a corporation tax cut going to incentivise new jobs?
Or are we just going to have offices in Edinburgh with lots of little bras plaques on it? As Aidan said, it didnt do Ireland any good (the multinationals just dictated the terms to the government) and the Caymans or the BVI have so much better weather.
#41 by Indy on June 10, 2011 - 6:29 pm
Yes I am not arguing that.
What Jim Mather was saying is that there was – and probably still is – a pattern of Scottish companies, once they reach a certain size, either being taken over or re-locating due to what he called the magnetic pull of the south east.
He described the Scottish economy as being a bit like a doughnut with the majority of companies being SMEs and then a handful of really big companies – but in the middle there is nothing but thin air. This situation he ascribed to the fact that the Scottish Government doesn’t have the powers to create sufficient incentives for businesses to stay in Scotland as well as to locate in Scotland. If the SG was able to use the tax system to offer incentives, whether lowering corporation tax or offering incentives for strategic industries, there would be more of a chance of keeping people and jobs in Scotland and keeping companies headquartered here. I don’t see why Labour would take issue with that kind of thinking – they were against the UK Govt dropping tax incentives for the games industry for example.
Anyway, as I said corporation tax was only one element of that so I am not sure why it has become such a big issue in itself.
#42 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:08 pm
But the point is that corporation tax doesnt affect those small business! As I’m sure Jim Mather must realise, but doesnt mention is that when a business starts up, it makes hardly any profits at all. That doesnt mean its not profitable, just that most of the profits are ploughed back into the business to grow it, or to provide working capital.
If Corproration tax was zero, it would hardly affect these small businesses and start-ups at all.
Industry specific, and region specific incentives are much better, because they can be targetted to have maximum effect. A dropping of the corp tax rate across the board will just attract the “brass plaque” businesses which wont create any jobs at all (except amongst tax accountants).
#43 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:42 pm
There are a lot of things that government could and should be doing to help stimulate businesses. The last Labour government in Westminster cut VAT, maintained government spending, brought forward capital spending to stimulate and support the economy.
There’s a lot of things that can be done around tax efficiency, particularly regarding VAT carousel fraud prevention measures, and investment incentives for new businesses (not foreign, foot loose multi-nationals).
Cutting corporation tax by a huge amount is not one of them.
#44 by Dubbieside on June 10, 2011 - 8:53 pm
It just may be that start up businesses take a long term view of the prospects for their new business before they invest the time and energy in it.
In this long term view they may even at some stage envisage making profits. They may like a chance to invest in an area where they will then retain a larger share of these profits by paying lower corporation tax.
An even longer term view might encourage them to think that retaining more of the profits, might give them a chance to employ more staff to grow the business further. This action may then pay dividends to the country that encouraged them in the first place with higher employment and higher tax take for that country.
#45 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:11 pm
But most start up businesses dont have the option to choose where they start. We wont suddenly have lots of small business people from England rushing up here to start their small businesses. They will start them where they live (I think 95% are started withing 20 miles of home). So “investing in an area where they will then retain a larger share of these profits” doesnt come into it.
#46 by Indy on June 10, 2011 - 5:56 pm
As for Aidan’s comments re the Living Wage. I honestly do not understand why you cannot see the utter absurdity of bringing in a living wage for low paid workers – a policy which the SNP supports – but then taking it away again by increasing council tax. People would not end up any better off.
#47 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:15 pm
The difference is that lower paid people tend to live in band A or B properties, and so would pay less extra in council tax than those higher paid people who are in bang G and H.
Plus a lot of people on low pay (and those on benefits) get council tax benefit to offset the cost.
I for one (living in a band A property) would have been happy to pay an extra £10 or £20 a year more on my council tax, which would actually work out as £30 or £60 more a year for someone in that band G property – if it meant we were protecting our vital public services.
#48 by Indy on June 11, 2011 - 6:01 pm
Away you go. The extra amount people got in a wage increase would be more than swallowed up by a council tax increase on the scale that Labour want to increase the council tax by.
Of course if we had a system of local taxation based on ability to pay that would not be so much of an issue but you guys won that fight so we are stuck with the council tax.
#49 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:36 pm
Away *you* go. An increase from minimum wage (5.93) to living wage (7.15) is an increase of 1.20 an hour, 9.60 a day, just shy of 50 quid a week. Which is a big difference to people on low incomes.
Council tax would need to more than double for that to swallowed up.
#50 by Don on June 12, 2011 - 1:54 am
And under the labour party, it probably would. It was estimated (before Ed Balls gave Iain Gray a kicking to “persuade” him that opposing the council tax freeze was a vote loser) that councils would increase council tax by approx 40% by the end of the 2nd year of this term. The next 3 years could easily have seen another 60% on top of that. After all, how much did council tax increase under the last labour administration?
#51 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 12:26 pm
Citation needed.
#52 by Ben Achie on June 10, 2011 - 6:40 pm
What defines social democracy is the “social contract”, which I can best describe as a support platform rather than just the safety net that the welfare state was, and the “social wage” is part of that. The SNP was a social democratic party in the seventies, and has, in office thirty years later, proven without doubt that it still is. Labour’s problem is that it has never taken the holistic view of society that is an essential component of social democracy: clients just got rewards for voting Labour, and Labour just wanted to retain office, as an end in itself. The tragedy of Gordon Brown is the tragedy of Labour itself – the actions in office just didn’t match the rhetoric. The actions of the SNP have.
#53 by Dubbieside on June 10, 2011 - 8:45 pm
Ben
One of the biggest parts of the Broon actions in office not
matching the rhetoric is with prescription charges.
When in opposition Broon called prescription charges “an immoral tax on the sick” when in office he increased the sick tax every year.
Socialist? You could not make it up. It may say socialist red on the tin, but what you get is very much tory blue, and we got that for 13 years.
Which of these were socialist policies?
Trident
Iraq
PFI
Post Office privatisation
NHS Privatisation
75pence per week pension increase (used different measures of RPI to cover increases in tax and lower one for benefits)
#54 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:21 pm
I dont think anyone would describe Ernie Bevin as anything except a red-blooded socialist, yet he famously said about the atominc bomb “We’ve got to have this thing over here whatever it costs .. We’ve got to have the bloody Union Jack on top of it.”
#55 by Dubbieside on June 11, 2011 - 12:49 pm
Aye Ernie Bevin that will be the guy who is turning in his grave as we speak about the Labour party privatisation of the health service.
I wonder what the same Ny Bevin would make of the PFI scam in his national health service.
#56 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 3:31 pm
You’re mixing up your Bevin with your Bevan. It was Nye Bevan or created the NHS, and who resigned from the cabinet when prescriptions charges were introduced. Ernie Bevin was Labour Foreign Secretary in the 45 government – and was also responsbible for the “Bevin Boys” who went down the mines during the war.
#57 by Dubbieside on June 11, 2011 - 4:20 pm
My apologies, not being a Labour historian.
That will now be both of them turning in their graves about the present state of the Labour party.
#58 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 6:13 pm
But my point being that not having nuclear weapons is not a socialist policy. Dare I point out the USSR or China?
#59 by Dubbieside on June 11, 2011 - 6:59 pm
Well I was sure after watching all these CND marches in the eighty’s and ninety’s, that right at the front of these marches were Labour leaders.
I am also fairly certain that both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were members of CND. I wonder what changed, from members of CND, to supporters of Trident.
Seeing all these Labour members on CND marches and the feeling at that time that CND membership was almost mandatory for anyone wanting to be a Labour candidate, must have made me think that opposition to nuclear weapons was a socialist policy.
#60 by Tony on June 11, 2011 - 8:14 pm
The USSR and China were socialist, good wan John ;¬)
#61 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 8:32 pm
Theres a difference between opposition to nuclear weapons (surely no sane person is in favour of them?) and having a nuclear defence system such as Trident?
If we are to have a nuclear defence system, then I dont believe Trident is the system to have – too costly and designed for the 1980s, not the threats we currently or are likely to face. We must work to eliminate ALL nuclear weapons from the planet, and I dont think that unilaterily giving up our 160 warheads will do that.
#62 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:37 pm
Minimum wage, civil unions, equalised age of consent, devolution, tax credits, huge numbers of people taken out of poverty, falling crime, rebuilt schools, rebuilt hospitals, renationalisation of the rail infrastructure…
#63 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 12:46 pm
Many of those are good social policies, not economic policies.
Devolution – despite a very conscious effort to rewrite the history, that was a cross-party campaign and ultimately delivered by the people of Scotland.
Crime has been falling for years (though you wouldn’t believe it if you only listen to the scare stories of successive Home Secretaries, Labour as well as Conservative). Giving a hostage to fortune here, but anyone with Scottish crime stats before and since 2007?
Huge numbers of people taken out of poverty? Try 100,000 more children and 300,000 more pensioners living in poverty in the 3 years to 2008 (and from memory, it didn’t get any better after that).
Renationalisation of some of the rail industry when there was no choice other than to scrap the entire industry. Not renationalising all of it shows it up as not being political strategy.
#64 by Dubbieside on June 11, 2011 - 12:46 pm
Ben
Further evidence if it was needed about the actions in office not matching the rhetoric from todays Daily Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/8569367/Labour-spending-Gordon-Brown-and-Ed-Balls-ignored-warnings-and-wasted-billions.html
One part again worth highlighting,
“Another leaked memorandum warns Mr Brown and Mr Balls that plans to scrap the 10p tax rate would hit millions of poorer Britons and pensioners – but the change was still introduced”
The sound you hear is John Smith turning in his grave.
#65 by Observer on June 10, 2011 - 6:56 pm
I have quite a lot of sympathy with some of the points that Aidan is making. What I would say to him is that neither the current Labour Party nor the SNP are going to give him what he wants. As far as I am concerned the SNP are currently ahead on points – they were anti-Iraq, they are anti-Trident, they opposed PFI albeit they found it hard to replace it, they abolished the right to buy for new tenants (& that was such a Thatcherite policy I rejoiced at its demise) economically they are to the left of Ed Balls when we look at how to resolve the deficit issues.
What I would say to Aidan is that in an independent Scotland he would be far more likely to see the kind of politics that he wants.
( For the avoidance of doubt I think the SNP’s policy on the Council Tax freeze is ridiculous, I also think that they have introduced populist policies just for the sake of winning, but they are still ahead on points).
#66 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:25 pm
The problem wasnt so much with right-to-buy, but the lack of a right-to-build policy for local authorities to replace propeties which were sold. This was something which was not corrected by Labour – a big mistake.
#67 by Observer on June 10, 2011 - 7:01 pm
I forgot to say that I am very dubious as to whether cutting corporation tax will bring the benefits that it is allegedly promising. However that is an issue that I would prefer was decided by a Scottish government looking at all the facts, not by whim of George Osborne, which is why I would still vote SNP.
#68 by Allan on June 10, 2011 - 7:42 pm
(cough) sorry, Labour a democratic socialist party…. not since 1994 mate. Maybe even before that, but certainly since 1994 and Blair’s elevation to Labour leader.
The SNP might not be a stricly Democratic Socialist party (at the moment they are a, in Scottish terms, centre-left party), but they do know how to utilise the language of New Labour. The quote about the diferences between Left & Right breaking down (which appeared in today’s “i”) sounds not unlike something that Indy said a couple of weeks ago.
As for the comments abour Corporation Tax, I am somewhat mystefied at Salmond lobbying for the use of the same lever that sunk Ireland, and is not doing any good for the rest of the UK. It seems that Salmond, Osborne, Lenihan et all believe that two in the bush is worth more than the Bird in the hand.
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/06/09/cameron-supports-corporation-tax-cut-for-northern-ireland-a-triumph-for-dogma-over-reason/
#69 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 8:44 am
Sorry Allan, I’m not having that.
What sunk Ireland is guaranteeing private companies’ debts (read: banks). Having to kill corporation tax incentives as a result of that is now driving away employers.
Falling for this is akin to blaming the UK govt’s economic problems on profligacy by Brown – absolutely not the case, but a useful Tory Trojan Horse in which to smuggle killing the public sector.
#70 by Allan on June 12, 2011 - 12:48 pm
So the fact that tax recipts from cuts in Corporation Tax ment less money in the Irish coffers wasn’t a factor? The the fact that Irish ecconomic policy was dictated to them by multi-national companies, surely must have been a factor – as is the factor that you identify regarding the failure of the banks. BTW, didn’t Dell leave Ireland (for the Czech Republic) before the crisis, and before Ireland’s corporation tax rates were altered.
As for the UK’s current woes, the Tory Trojan Horse is only useful becasue so few people challenge the “horse”.
#71 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 1:38 pm
I agree, Ireland’s immediate crises was caused by banking (as it was around the world) but it would have been in a much better position to handle the problems generated if it had a functioning real economy rather than a tax haven.
The Irish model, that the SNP are pursuing, of relying on attracting multi-nationals as employers, rather than building up real businesses won’t and can’t work.
#72 by Neocon lite on June 10, 2011 - 7:55 pm
Drivel!
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
#73 by Observer on June 10, 2011 - 8:57 pm
The differences between l eft & reight breaking down? How can you talk about that in terms of being a social democrat, which as I understand it is about trying to tame the capitalist beast & give us some social fairness, whilst at the same time not introducing a command economy.
The social democrat will always understand that the capitalist system is essentially exploiting the working class (which it does). That is an essentially left wing concept. The right wing doesn’t care. The social democrat can support the right of capitalists to exploit the working class up to a point, mainly where it benefits the working class. The right wing would do away with any protection of workers rights – see the Tories plans for the future. I think it is a bizarre idea that the differences can break down. That tension is always going to be there.
#74 by JPJ2 on June 10, 2011 - 11:19 pm
Allan says “As for the comments abour Corporation Tax, I am somewhat mystefied at Salmond lobbying for the use of the same lever that sunk Ireland,”
Sorry Allan but you are completely wrong about that-which is why the Irish have desperately tried to keep CT levels under their control (and appear to have succeeded).
#75 by Allan on June 11, 2011 - 10:36 am
Ireland slashed Corporation Taxes in an attempt to woo businesses to Ireland. That failed and as a result tax recipts were down and a black hole appeared in the finances of Ireland. If the SNP were to go down the route Ireland did, the same outcomes would occur.
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2011/05/27/scottish-nationalist-party-take-note-cutting-corporation-tax-does-not-pay/
#76 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:30 pm
Indeed. During the refinancing negotiations, the Irish Government wanted to raise Corp Tax from 12.5% to 15%, but the businesses interests of those American multinationals Intel, Microsoft and Dell threatened to leave if it did. The Government backed down and made up for it by raiding the pension fund. The Irish pension was cut drastically as a result. Theres a lot of unhappy pensioners now.
Is that really what the SNP want? To be blackmailed by a bunch of US businessmen who just want to increase their own profits?
#77 by Allan on June 11, 2011 - 2:45 pm
As I said above, Salmond seems to be not learning the lessons of why the “Arc of Prosperity” crashed & burned – that agressive Corporation taxes is not a golden ticket in itself to a prosperous economy. Need I remind people that one in the hand is worth two in the bush, not the other way around.
#78 by Indy on June 11, 2011 - 6:09 pm
Eh? Not sure someone in the same party as Gordon Brown should be lambasting others for raiding pension funds. Have you talked to any Scottish pensioners lately – or public sector employees approaching retirement?
I don’t think you should be quite so keen on slagging off Ireland when they basically just made the same mistakes as Britain did.
And one thing is for sure, those mistakes won’t be made again will they?
#79 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 6:54 pm
Agreed that the UK is making the same mistakes as Ireland did in going for more austerity.
The raiding pensions fund myth is just that – a myth. The effect of the changes to tax rules that Brown made to bring the funds into line with other investors was a drop in the ocean compared to the contribution holidays that many businesses took. That is where the source of the problems with pension funds really lie.
As it happens, the LGPS is actually a well funded scheme – its Osborne who is trying to change the rules.
#80 by Indy on June 12, 2011 - 9:18 am
Osborne is trying to change the rules is he? Well given the fact that he is in a position to do just that – and that you are committed to the constitutional arrangements which allow him to do just that – there is every chance that he will.
And no doubt we will see public sector unions campaigning against that and even going on strike while at the same time campaigning against Scottish independence becasue an independent Scotland could not guarantee their pensions as well as George Osborne.
#81 by Allan on June 12, 2011 - 12:51 pm
Small historical note Indy. Brown & Blair thought that “raiding pension funds” would be less electorialy damaging than raising income taxes – the Tories had left a small hole in the countries finances when they left office in 1997. Funnily enough they thought that if they raised taxes, it would damage their newly won economic reputation. Then came “Light Touch Regulation”…
#82 by Scottish republic on June 10, 2011 - 11:57 pm
Labour are a right-wing party with a left-wing badge.
The corporation tax argument was facile and weak and Aidan you know that. Salmond wishing to attract jobs to Scotland is for the people.
Where you get your notions that Labour is left-wing at all comes from a prior history of Labour once being being a proud left-wing party till about 30 years + ago AND that you’d really like it to be but you know it isn’t.
Aidan, you are betraying the working people of Scotland and everything that a caring society could offer them by gripping onto Westminster Brit nat Labour and their sell out of everything Labour ever was.
Join the independence movement, see through the Brit nat rhetoric and help the Scots become the people they need to be.
#83 by Rev. S. Campbell on June 11, 2011 - 10:36 am
It’s utterly staggering that anyone would still have the barefaced cheek to claim Labour are socialist and to the left of the SNP. The briefest of visits to any impartial factual analysis such as http://www.politicalcompass.org leaves that lie in tatters.
#84 by James on June 11, 2011 - 10:44 am
I don’t think they’re socialist, and they are on a number of social issues to the right of the SNP, but economically they’re marginally more left, which isn’t hard.
#85 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 12:37 pm
On a strict left/right basis, Scottish Vote Compass has the SNP very slightly to the right of Scottish Labour (rather than the UK party which it is compared to on Political Compass). The bigger difference is on a Social Liberal/traditional values (Authoritarian) axis.
#86 by Angus McLellan on June 11, 2011 - 5:49 pm
You make it sound as if there was the same slight variation on the authoritarian-libertarian axis as on the economic one. That’s not true of course. There was a broad gulf between them. It’s almost as if Labour drew up their manifesto based on the assumption that they were engaged in a contest with the BNP and not the SNP.
#87 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 6:55 pm
I never made it sound like a slight variation. I was quite clear that it was a bigger difference.
#88 by Indy on June 11, 2011 - 6:12 pm
But Scottish Labour does not have an economic policy so how can anyone judge?
Your economic policy is the same as UK Labour. You don’t have distinct policies for the Scottish economy because you don’t recognise it as being anything other than part of the UK economy.
#89 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 6:57 pm
Even after independence, the Scottish economy will be part of the UK economy. Our fiscal policy will be run by the Bank of England, or the European Central bank, our trade policy will be determined with Brussels, and the majority of our exports will be with the UK.
#90 by Indy on June 12, 2011 - 9:22 am
Yes I agree. There is no such thing as a fully independent economy anywhere in the world these days. That makes it all the more important that governments are able to use every economic power at their disposal – be it corporation tax or anything else – to try an obtain an advantage.
And that’s exactly what Scotland cannot do because we are tied into an economic policy which is designed to support the UK’s economic objectives rather than Scotland’s.
#91 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:45 pm
Actually, we do – we don’t have distinct monetary policies because, as John points out, we’ll still be part of the UK and EU economies. But, there are other levers, for instance we set out how we would invest in the energy infrastructure to stimulate green energy investment.
#92 by Indy on June 12, 2011 - 9:25 am
Aidan you have policies on stimulating renewable energy simply because the promotion of renewable energy is devolved. I guess at the time the Scotland Act was drafted no-ome realised just how important renewable energy would become, otherwise I am pretty sure it would be reserved as well!
So what that neans is that the Scottish Parliament has powers in those areas but not in any other.
Does that really seem good to you?
#93 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 11:22 am
eh? Energy was clearly going to be important in 1999. The Scottish Parliament has plenty of powers to manage the economy – it doesn’t have power over monetary policy but then neither would an independent Scotland.
There are lots of other economic levers beyond renewables that the Scottish Parilament has: investment and enterprise policy, transport, education.
#94 by Indy on June 13, 2011 - 11:22 am
The Scottish Parliament does not have plenty of powers to manage the economy. That is not surprising as economic policy, as well as fiscal and monetary policy, is reserved.
That’s just a facr Aidan.
#95 by John Ruddy on June 13, 2011 - 8:16 pm
Just because the SNP have decided not to use them, or to drop them (SVR) is perhaps indicating that they would like people to THINK Scotland has no economic levers, rather than proof of their absence.
#96 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 8:47 am
I’m really not sure what evidence that’s based on, considering the Scottish Party’s *behaviour and policies* (as opposed to its rhetoric and perhaps its actual beliefs) are entirely in lock step with London.
#97 by Aldos Rendos on June 11, 2011 - 5:01 pm
Interesting article.
I don’t agree with a lot of the misconceptions stated here and elsewhere regarding Ireland. The Irish economy failed not because of the low corp tax but inspite of this tax. Companies like Ebay, Intel, Microsoft and my old employer Servicesource have helped created thousands of jobs and indeed continue to create jobs despite the tough economic conditions in Ireland. The failure of Ireland can be placed squarely at the hands of the banks whose irresponsible lending to dubious property developers ultimately led to the failure of the economy.
Peter Robinson’s interest in keeping the UK corp tax is purely political, any acceptance of a lower tax would be seen to be pandering to Sinn Fein and politically unviable for any Unionist party.
As for the wider question on political identity, I think the old parameters of what’s left, right, what’s social and what’s democratic have long died. Who would have ever thought a Labour party would seek to introduce ID cards and be proponents of PFI, while the Tory party have increased VAT and the Scottish Liberal Democrats actively oppose a referendum!
#98 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:49 pm
They create jobs, but those jobs are insecure, don’t contribute to the wider economy except as an FDI in-flow and bring few other benefits beyond being, well, a job. Which isn’t nothing, but you can’t build an economy around it because they’ll eventually move to somewhere cheaper.
ID cards and PFI were mistakes, but aren’t the Lib Dems are actively in favour of 2 referendum? The Tories love VAT – they raise it any opportunity they can. Gits.
#99 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 1:09 pm
Yeah, and then some.
Along with illegal wars, locking up children, stifling dissent, smiling at bigots, complicity in torture…
It takes some going to be to the right of the Tories on the civil liberty agenda.
#100 by Aldos Rendos on June 12, 2011 - 4:35 pm
I’d be interested to hear how you define these jobs as ‘insecure’ like I said all these companies I have listed have all expanded since the financial crisis hit. When Servicesource opened their EMEA HQ in Dublin in 2006, it had a staff of around 30 people, today it employs 300 people and has set up a ‘Dublin 2’ base and created a third base in Liverpool. Also why does this have no impact on the wider economy? Local cafe’s, supermarkets, pubs, hairdressers, have all benefited from their existence. There are also numerous other reasons why these companies locate in Ireland, great transport links to the US (far superior to anywhere in Scotland I may add) a highly educated work force and a multi-national workforce which is essential for dealing with a diverse European market. I don’t see why Scotland learn some of these lessons and use them to our advantage as well.
#101 by Indy on June 11, 2011 - 5:57 pm
I am not talking about business start-ups John.
I am talking about the situation where a business becomes big enough and successful enough to be taken over and lost to Scotland.
#102 by John Ruddy on June 11, 2011 - 7:02 pm
The only way to prevent that is to prevent take-overs. If a business gets taken over, theres not a lot you can do to prevent it from moving operations to where it wants. If its something that can easily be moved (ie not a manufacturing or retail facility) then it will just move where the new owner wants – probably near where they are currently based, or closer to a bigger market (as in the case of Jim Mather’s former business). Unless you can create a market in Scotland thats an equivalent pull to the greater South East, it aint going to happen.
What we need to do is to encourage more new businesses and help those small businesses grow. A Corp tax cut wont do that for the UK, and it wont do it for Scotland.
#103 by Indy on June 12, 2011 - 9:31 am
Ok now we are getting to it.
You say that if a business gets taken over there is not a lot you can do to stop it moving operations to where it wants.
But you know what – you can try. You can try to create an environment which will encourage businesses to stay here as well as to locate here and Scotland has a lot of advantages in that respect in terms of quality of life, a skilled workforce etc. If we can try and line everything else up to create a more attractive environment to do business then maybe we will be able to keep more jobs here as well as to create more jobs.
#104 by Aidan Skinner on June 11, 2011 - 9:54 pm
We need to make it more attractive for companies to stay here. That means a high quality work force that wants to live here, infrastructure in terms of housing and work places and also financial infrastructure to support growth and a stable policy environment.
You can incentivise companies to locate and stay here, you can’t bribe them. Someone will always be around to offer a bigger bribe.
That’s why the SNP focus on companies like Amazon is so dangerous. Sure, it’s a big prestigeous company but if it closed the workers couldn’t stage a buy out and carry on. They don’t participate in the wider economy and so don’t contribute to the economy except through wages. Which isn’t nothing, but you can’t build a country around it either.
#105 by Indy on June 12, 2011 - 9:40 am
I am not arguing with that. I agree with the points you ared making – and I would add that as one of the reasons we need to maintain free university tuition.
But look at it this way. If Nokia had been a Scottish company instead of a Finnish company do you think it would still be headquartered in Scotland? Or would it have inevitably ended up based in London?
That is always the scenario we are going to be faced with, whether or not we are independent.
If we are going to be able to compete against the pull of London and the south east we have to make sure we are making the most of every advantage that we have, including taxation.
#106 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 11:30 am
Nokia has been a Finnish company for over 150 years, I think if a Scottish conglomerate had been around that long it would probably have stayed here too.
Plenty of successful Scottish companies remain here, eg. Wolfram, Cairn, Scottish Widows…. they don’t remain here for tax purposes. They remain here because it’s advantageous for them to do so for a plethora of other reasons. Reasons which are more sustainable, have wide ranging benefits and help to actually grow the real economy. None of which cutting corporation tax does.
If Scotland is to succeed in the future we need to focus on things that sustainably contribute to GDP (value created here), not GNY (value created elsewhere and bounced through Scotland for tax reasons).
Unless, of course, you think we’re too poor, too wee to succeed on our own and need to skim off the tax revenues of other countries… ? 😉
#107 by Scottish republic on June 12, 2011 - 9:25 am
“”””Anyway, I don’t think Sunder Katwala’s prediction of a red-yellow coalition is likely, but he does have a point about the virulence of the debate between the two being at least partly due to the broad similarity of the policies and the search for synthetic differences.”””””
Aidan, just read your other column and it’s very clear you don’t understand that Scotland isn’t a Labour toy to be played with anymore.
The Labourites spent 4 years opposing virulently with seething contempt every policy the SNP proposed until the 11th hour when they realised their policies were rubbish and ADOPTED the SNP policies overnight in early January to February.
Your not realising this makes you part of the Mont Python election. Incidentally, I refered to the Labourite election as the Monty Python election because of the adoption of SNP policies by Labour (who will either vote for them now since they said they wanted them or not because they are unhappy). The Monty Python Labourite extravaganza continued with Gray and the uncosted Labourite manifesto which called for Labour to end Scottish Labour (a sentiment shared by many). Then the knife crime joek where Baker, Kerr and Gray all went on TV and staed knife crime cost the Scottish NHS £500 million a year and compounded it with saying mandatory arrests would result in 500 arrests and imprisonments. They got the first figure from ‘reading it in the papers’ and the second they just imagined.
I named the Labour campaign in Scotland the Monty Python campaign and I’ve never seen such a comedy in politics ever.
So yes, Monty Python indeed and here you are then arguing the SNP are right and Labour are left. The Monty Python continues. Why don’t you read the latest releases about the warmongering Labourites Brow, Balls, Milli Ed, Blair and what they did to the people.
10p tax cut, Brown knew about 5 million families would suffer. Severe cuts but a bit slower from Brown.
You call yourself a ‘Labour man’ but this article shows that you are a Labourite.
A bit like the Israelites who wandered the desert in search of the promised land except as a Labourite one has learned nothing and has no real destination for the people.
You write here about this policy or that but the actual reality is anyone supporting Labour is a disgrace to the working people of Scotland and anyone trying to say Labour is still a bit left-wing is bonkers.
They are a bit left-wing compared to the Tories I grant you but well, that’s nothing to boast about.
#108 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 12:28 pm
“They are a bit left-wing compared to the Tories I grant you but well, that’s nothing to boast about.”
The point of this post is that the SNP are seeking to out-Tory the Tories on tax cuts for companies, service cuts for people. 🙂
#109 by Martinb on June 12, 2011 - 12:47 pm
Service cuts thus far are passing on the cut in pocket money that Westminster allows us. You’re arguing for FFA, yes?
#110 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 1:31 pm
Yep. But it matters how those powers are used, not just that we have them. As I pointed out in another comment, the SNP had other options rather than just passing on the cuts.
They would have had more options if they hadn’t reduced the powers of the Scottish Parliament by letting the SVR lapse.
#111 by Angus McLellan on June 12, 2011 - 6:04 pm
My recollection is that the only party to have won seats last month on a tax-increase platform were the Greens. But if you can convince yourself that the SNP were “seeking to out-Tory the Tories on tax cuts”, it will be no problem interpreting the Labour manifesto claim that “We will not increase the income tax rate …” as a call for a rise in the SVR.
#112 by Aidan Skinner on June 12, 2011 - 6:44 pm
How else would you interpret cutting corporation tax below what Osborne is cutting it to?
#113 by Angus McLellan on June 12, 2011 - 10:50 pm
In a word, differently. Since timing matters a great deal, it seems to me that it must be interpreted as out-Labouring Labour. A certain J. Gordon Brown was the Chancellor when the policy was announced.
The difference between the SNP’s announced 20% target and the current UK headline rate is no longer 10%. If Corporation Tax powers are devolved, which seems highly unlikely and will not be quickly done, the difference will be around 5% or less. If the SNP come out and say that the originally announced 10% differential will be maintained, rather than the headline rate, then you’ll have been proved right in the end because that will be out-Torying the Tories. Until then, I’m not convinced.
As a common or garden voter, as opposed to a card-carrying activist or paid apparatchik, I’m under no obligation to defend anyone’s policies. I get to pick and mix, or even come up with my own ideas. Here I disagree with SNP policy. I’m not convinced that a cut in the headline rate is of the greatest importance. A cut of around 5% would not be a terrible thing, so long as it doesn’t lead to a race to the bottom, but it’s not the main thing either. I think allowances and incentives – together with better physical and human infrastructure as you mentioned upthread – are more necessary to encourage growth in the long term. The fact that Salmond proposed changes in allowances in the case of the oil industry tax rise could be seen as encouraging here. Or is that just wishful thinking?
#114 by Scottish republic on June 12, 2011 - 4:20 pm
Your view of economics is Labourite.
The reduction of corporation tax can ONLY help business and encourage employment and companies to employ people in Scotland.
The raising of the council tax to give council workers a wage rise would have lead to many not well off people being screwed.
Scotland needs independence to create the society Labourites talk about and do nothing about except make it worse.
You’re listening to the Labourites at the branch meetings and the guest speakers who themselves are party line people.
The Labour party :
– did away with 10p tax band
– bought Trident
– went to war
– in the course of privatising the NHS
– left the banks alone to do their thing
– useless with spending control/restraint (see the Telegraph documents)
The list is actually endless.
If you buy the Labourite lies of being left-of-centre than you’re naive; if you know better then you’re a hypocrite.
Get out of that mob
#115 by John Ruddy on June 12, 2011 - 6:40 pm
I think you will find that Trident entered service in 1994. Under a tory Government.
I know its pedantic, but the last Labour Government didnt order Trident, and didnt actually order the replacement, although it recommended.
In fact, the last Labour Government reduced the number of warheads that our Trident subs carry.
#116 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 12:08 am
I think you’ll find that the Labour party just over a year ago proposed a new µTrident system that has been adopted by Westminster.
I also think you’ll find that Labour has voted for Trident over and over again.
You(ll definitely find the SNP opposing it.
#117 by John Ruddy on June 13, 2011 - 8:18 pm
Proposed, yes, voted for, yes. Bought? No.
#118 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 12:19 am
Aiden at one time Labour thought of the SNP as a distraction to the progression of social democratic policy.
Those days are long gone, the Labour party is the distraction to social democracy in Scotland. It’s the SNP that are putting in place social democracy onto the streets of Scotland.
The SNP is run by left-wing minded people.
The Scots kicked Labour out because they see them for what they are, a hegemony based on a career structure that culminates in Westminster goodies.
Since when did being in Labour mean you had to be a unionist?
This is made up by those who’ve profited from the Westminster cabal for decades.
Join us because at the moment you are stopping the Scottish people young and old from creating a better society.
#119 by James on June 13, 2011 - 8:11 am
I keep waiting for a single bit of domestic evidence for the SNP being left-wing, i.e. not Trident or Iraq (both fine positions, and ones I share).
Economically, a single measure over the last four years designed to improve the lot of the poorest in society? Nope. A Council Tax freeze that benefits you more the more your property’s worth (and which cuts public sector jobs and the services the poorest rely upon). Plans to cut corporation tax despite the clear view in poll after poll that say that business should pay a fairer share. The continued gross inequalities in Scotland appear literally not to matter to the SNP.
#120 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 11:39 am
SNP’s left-wing position :
The council tax is Labour’s preference, the SNP would like to develop a local income tax.
The NHS under Labour was being privatised and the SNP has reversed this process to make it an NHS.
The SNP believes in free education for all, Labour was against this with graduate endowments and was forced just recently to adopt the SNP policy.
The SNP is vehemently opposed to privatisation of Scottish water.
The SNP wishes to lower corporation tax to attract jobs and revenue to Scotland, quite a different thing from lowering corporation tax as they do in the US to feed the fat cats. the Irish have done this with great success.
The SNP wishes to invest in large public construction projects to produce jobs for the workforce.
The SNP wishes to create an oil fund for the people rather than just spend it on tax relief.
If you don’t see this as the start of our new nation then look harder.
#121 by James on June 13, 2011 - 2:46 pm
Local income tax will benefit those with substantial assets and land, as well as those rich enough already to avoid income tax. And unlike even Westminster income tax, share income would be excluded. It’s profoundly regressive, flawed as Council Tax is.
Yes, the reversals on PFI and NHS privatisation are welcome, but the flawed previous approach was primarily bad for overall budgets primarily, and did not specifically have an effect on regressiveness. Privatising Scottish Water is in this area too.
I support free tuition, but abolishing fees and the graduate endowment is right in principle despite the fact that students from poorer backgrounds didn’t pay.
Your stuff about corporation tax is simply deluded. It is exactly the Irish race to the bottom, beggar-your-neighbour approach. Specifically, by relying on fluid international capital rather than strengthening local economies, the Irish tax moves contributed to the crash of their economy.
Also, building roads is a dire way to try and achieve job growth. The same money could reverse John Swinney’s cuts to housing or education or local authority budgets, each of which would directly help those on low incomes.
And finally, sure, an oil fund might have been a good idea, but building a future Scotland on a dirty, diminishing dead end is really not the way forward.
#122 by Allan on June 13, 2011 - 7:27 pm
“The SNP wishes to lower corporation tax to attract jobs and revenue to Scotland, quite a different thing from lowering corporation tax as they do in the US to feed the fat cats. the Irish have done this with great success.”
Here we go again with this fallacy that lower corporation taxes creates jobs. Lower corporation tax rates leads to lower investment in public service, less investment in larger public construction projects, and will make the pledge for free education that little bit diferent to attain.
You have hit the nail on the head about the only possible reason to cut Corporation Tax – to feed the fat cats. The fat cats incidentially enough are always the first people to reach for the fig leaf marked “inward investment”. Your assessment of the Irish “sucess story” is quite remarkable though. Lower tax reciepts had a drastic impact on Ireland as it crashed big time.
That’s quite staggering analysis, the kind that makes Gordon “Light Touch regulation” Brown look like some sort of soothsayer.
#123 by James on June 13, 2011 - 7:50 pm
Quite!
#124 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 12:14 pm
Oh yes and while we’re at it :
Labour and the Tories both receive donations from Scottish Power (not actually Scottish anymore since privatisation has allowed them to be bought by Lord knows who) .
Not a word from Labour/Tory condemning the gas 19% price hike nor the 10% electricity hike so that they can fund their new nuclear energy projects we don’t want.
The SNP is going to try and stop the price hike but without independence we’re limited in what we can do.
The SNP wishes to create a Scotland running on 100% renewables by 2020, fully possible since we’re already approaching 65% of renewables with the current projects in the pipeline.
Salmond says care for the elderly should never be in the hands of private business who need to make profits, the only way to really make profits is to hire staff at cheaper and cheaper rates and that is most unhealthy. Sturgeon is meeting with the bosses of Southern today.
You wish to live in a post-imperial UK Brit nat parliament (a long name but true nonetheless) with right-wing notions that do not serve the people then you’ll be happy with Scotland having a devolved nation staus, if you want. Or Vote YES for a ‘fair’ society with a government that has the people’s interests as its raison d’etre.
Vote YES
#125 by John Ruddy on June 13, 2011 - 8:22 pm
I’m sorry, but an independent Scotland couldnt stop this price increase – unless you’re proposing that the utility companies would be nationalised, and prices set at Holyrood, irrepspective of the cost of buying the electricity and gas?
I’m not defending SP – they make massive profits and could afford to absorb SOME of this increase. But the wholesale market price for energy is an a big upward swing at the moment – and NO COUNTRY IN ERUOPE has been able to avoid it.
#126 by Allan on June 13, 2011 - 8:29 pm
The wholesale market price for energy might be on an upward swing just now, but there was a downward swing 4 years ago. Prices did not fall at that point, the energy companies have had about 3 years of creaming in the profits…
#127 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 5:11 pm
Why did corporation tax harm the Irish economy?
So, you believe Labour is left-wing.
If you know all this stuff then nothing I can say will change your outlook. You’re looking for excuses to run down the SNP and pretend that the Brit nats are left-wing.
#128 by James on June 13, 2011 - 5:21 pm
That’s not what I said. On many social issues (e.g. justice) they’re definitely to the right of the SNP. On economic matters they’re marginally to the left, although I still regard both as centre-right on those issues. And I’m certainly no “Brit-nat”.
#129 by Allan on June 13, 2011 - 7:29 pm
Er… because lower taxes brought less money into the Irish Finances. Which in turn left a fiscal black hole when the economy turned.
#130 by aonghas on June 13, 2011 - 5:20 pm
I think it’s fairly uncontroversial to say that Labour is to the right of the SNP. Each party is ‘centre-left’ in the context of the electorate that it targets. Scotland’s is a little to the left of the UK’s. Looking at the parties’ actions when in power, I’d say this is a no-brainer.
Mind you, parties’ rhetoric can be different from their policies, and anyway people don’t necessarily vote for policies. Labour moved to the right to get/stay in power, and kept being voted in in Scotland by the same people that voted for ‘old’ Labour. As long as the image ‘works’, the reality can be moulded somewhat. So Labour in Scotland are in the position of having a slightly more ‘right-wing’ set of policies, but still playing the socialist mood music.
Now that Labour are out of power, their rhetoric can take a front seat given that they aren’t constrained by the reality of governing. Hence the rapid flocking back to the fold of those virtuous Labour supporters that were put off by grubby non-idealistic reality and who briefly latched onto Nick Clegg as Mr Clean Hands.
By the way, I didn’t know Labour had gone ‘social democrat’. I remember when they decided to stop calling themselves socialists, and at the time ‘social democrat’ was rejected in favour of ‘democratic socialist’ IIRC.
#131 by Indy on June 13, 2011 - 7:14 pm
It’s a false argument to say what left wing economic policies has the SNP put forward – because the Scottish Government does ot control the economy.
It does not have the power to increase the minimum wage for example or to close tax loopholes exploited by the rich or to intervene to bring electricity and gas prices down.
So we can only judge the left wingness or otherwise of policies which may have an impact on the economy – but which are not of themselves economic policies e.g. the council tax freeze, free prescriptions etc.
So yes you can make an argument that the council tax freeze would benefit people in big houses more than in small houses. But the other side to that argument is that the council tax accounts for a much bigger proportion of poorer peoples incomes so therefore in income terns they have benefitted the most from having the council tax frozen. And the underlying argument is that council tax went up by an above-inflation 60 per cent under Labour and the Lib Dems so at a time of tightening budgets all round council tax payers should not be regarded as a cash cow which can be squeezed till the pips squeak.
Equally you could argue that free prescriptions benefit rich people who could easily afford to pay for prescriptions and is therefore not a left wing policy. But the other side to that is that people on lower incomes benefit the most from not having to pay prescriptions. And the underlying argument is that the NHS is supposed to provide healthcare free at the point of need. Medicine is an integral part of healthcare and should therefore be free at the point of need if that principle is actually considered meaningful.
So we might have to look around a bit further to identify something that was easily recognisable as being left wing or right wing.
One policy which appears fairly obviously left wing to me – and which I am surprised has not been discussed in this context – is minimum pricing of alcohiol. That appears to me to be an almost textbook left wing policy based as it is 1. on the recognition that the market has failed when it comes to alcohol and 2, on the belief that it is right that the government intervenes to correct that market failure through regulation.
#132 by aonghas on June 14, 2011 - 9:03 am
How has the market failed wrt alcohol? AIUI alcohol is available in greater variety and at lower prices than in the past.
Don’t misuse terminology like this – ‘the market’ is most certainly working.
There are ill effects from misuse of alcohol. But don’t pretend that the market isn’t working to justify a cowardly, blanket, nanny-state response to the problem rather than one that tackles the problem in a targeted manner.
#133 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 9:13 pm
I’d like someone to tell me these left-wing policies the Labourites have and I’m sure they would too.
I’d also like to be told what left-wing policies they enacted during their 8 years in power and I’m sure they would too.
Corporation tax in Ireland, do you have any figures to back your assertion that low corporation tax rates helped bankrupt Ireland? as far as Irish people are concerned the bankruptsy happened despite low corporation tax. The low corporation tax produced wealth and jobs in Ireland that never existed previously.
#134 by Scottish republic on June 13, 2011 - 9:20 pm
The Labourites are the distraction to Scotland’s right to self-determination. They are thus gripping grimly to the union (no-one reasonably knows why) as if it’s left-wing policy, it isn’t.
The Scots deserve a government that can help the people yet those Labourites who say they are social democrats prove they’re not by clinging on desperately to the ‘union’ with the bland statement, ‘the union has been good for Scotland.’
The union has produced a Scotland with only a fraction of the economy it can have and it still performs as well as the South East of England.
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/economy/2717-scottish-economy.html
You are stopping social democracy from flourishing because of a misguided loyalty to right-wing Labour.