After the 2007 election, the SNP enjoyed a honeymoon period that arguably stretched out for two years. In 2011, despite a stunning majority-winning election, that honeymoon period is in danger of being less than a month.
The only court that I plan on attending in London is of the tennis-variety at Wimbledon so there is only so excited that I can be at the protracted wrangling between the SNP and seemingly the rest of the world over which courts should and should not hear Scottish cases in the United Kingdom.
However, the SNP’s continued insistence to chip, chip, chip away at the question of what role the UK Supreme Court should have in Scots Law has forced my hand, not least due to Kenny MacAskill’s ante-upping threat to pull Scotland’s £500k funding of said Court with the rather bizarre justification that ‘he who pays the piper, as they say, calls the tune’.
I suspect that this worrying rhetoric is just the Justice Secretary once again unintentionally fudging his meaning and Kenny is simply seeking to raise the question of what jurisdiction courts should and shouldn’t have. It is too crass to say, as many already have, that we have separation of powers in this country and politicians should not get involved with what the legal process is. That is true for specific cases but in terms of a structural process, it is only Governments that can effect change so the objections raised by MacAskill and the SNP at large are perfectly valid, if perhaps ill-timed and ill-conceived.
As to the question itself, on the face of it, a London court reviewing and overturning the decision of a Scottish court when Scots Law and English Law are two separate kettles of fish seems wrong. However, even just a little bit of digging into the precedents and rules that are in place show that the UK Supreme Court is absolutely the appropriate place for certain cases to be heard. My understanding is that the Privy Council had formerly been a body of appeal for Scots Law cases related to the European Convention of Human Rights and the UK Supreme Court has now superseded that. No objections from me then; the SNP do seem to be guilty of having a solution that is looking for a problem.
Do I like the idea of Scotland’s legal appeal route bodyswerving London and leading direct to the heart of Brussels/Strasbourg helping to ensure that our nation is a full and equitable partner of the European Union? Yes, I do. Do I think the SNP is making that case in a mature and dignified manner? No, I don’t. Do I think that this is a particularly pressing issue for Scotland at this time? Absolutely not, given the pitiful few cases that this would have affected in the past few years and, no doubt, would affect in the years to come.
For me, the SNP is picking the wrong battle, at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons. A situation has presented itself which offered the possibility of exacerbating an apparent imbalance in our constitutional arrangement and the SNP could not resist leveraging the opportunity for its own ends as much as it possibly could. The whole issue does smack of a bit of a practice for independence arguments that will be fully flexed in a few years time as the referendum approaches but with an election just completed and all Scots eager to learn what the SNP’s domestic agenda will be for the year(s) ahead, this sends out a disappointingly partisan message with an abysmal sense of timing.
I do not get the impression that the SNP has researched this area a great deal but simply jumped on a moving train that it hoped would soon turn into a bandwagon. A panel of experts assessing this potential issue in a sober, controlled manner and putting forward recommendations would have been a much more approriate way to suggest changes to a hitherto largely undiscussed and uncared for aspect of Scottish civic life, not springing this upon our collective consciences via Gordon Brewer and the Newsnight Scotland channels. We spook easily don’t you know.
So, given the staunch resistance to the SNP’s calls for ‘London to butt out’, it looks like this is one issue the Nats should have left well alone or it’ll be left shaking its head in dismay at how it fought the law, and the unionists won.
#1 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 2, 2011 - 6:50 am
There are two issues here.One is about justice and the other is about the authority of Scottish law.Of course I would want an individual to have the right of appeal against a sentence that may be unjust.I do not think that Alec Salmond is disagreeing about that.
I think the SNP concern is about the threat to the Scottish legal system.When Scotlands independence was given away in 1707,at least some things were retained.One of those was our sepperate Scottish legal system.The independence of that system is said to be threatened by the Calman proposals.Because Calman bill proposes to remove powers from Scotland,I would be in favour of resisting anything that transfers powers to a UK body.That includes taking appeals to a UK supreme court,and the prospect of a UK body overturning the decision of a Scottish court.That is not rhetoric,it is an opinion based on a point of view which I believe is being articulated extremely well by the SNP government.Actually I would hope that any Scottish government (irrespective of party) would stand firm on this issue.
Of course we need an appeal process that is seperate from Scottish law.I see no reason why that cannot be conducted in Brussels.The argument that it is the UK (not Scotland) who is a member of the EU,is not convincing to me.This side of independence,I see no reason why Scottish citizens can not follow the same route as the citizens of other nations within the EU.
#2 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 8:09 am
Its nothing to do with the EU. This is the European convention on Human rights, and about ensuring that the same human rights apply to people whether they live north or south of the border.
If the SNP were proposing a new higher court for human rights appeals in Scotland, I could understand it – it might even get approved if they went about proposing it properly. However, they’re not. They’re proposing that if you have a problem with the Scottish legal system’s view of your human rights (eg prosecution not giving the defence vital evidence, police not giving you a lawyer when they question you etc) you should take it to the European Court in Strasborg. Strasborg has a backlog of 120,000 cases from all over Europe, that at the current rate will take until 2050 to clear. Strasborg doesnt have any Scottish judges sitting on it, and no one with any experience of Scottish law. The UK Supreme Court has two such judges, who have held the highest positions in the Scottish judicial system. Case are heard swiftly and with knowledge and understanding of the Scottish system.
Now you tell me which court is more suitable?
#3 by Colin on June 2, 2011 - 12:45 pm
But John, there is an underlying issue with this idea that human rights be equal across the UK. In actual fact we all know this means that they be equal to the English legal system’s view of human rights. Sure, we have had two recent examples where Scotland has fallen short, but let us not forget that Scotland leads the way in many other protections. To list but a few:
1) Corroboration of confessions is required in Scots law, whereas in England, as in other countries like America, Canada, Australia, a confession alone can crucify the accused. This, unsurprisingly, has led to literally hundreds of miscarriages of justice. Something we at least have some protection against. Where is the UK Supreme Court human rights judgement on the lack of corroboration in English cases that involve a confession?
2) The right to remain silent and the right to not incriminate onself – these are still protected absolutely in Scots law. In English law it was the Major government that allowed negative inferences to be drawn from an accused’s silence. Where is the UK Supreme Court human rights judgement on the loss of the right to remain silent in English law?
3) Habeas Corpus – in Scotland not only is the time you can be detained much, much smaller than it is in England, but the time you are held after arrest before seeing a judge is also much shorter. Where is the UK Supreme Court human rights judgement on habeas corpus in English law?
4) Previous convictions are completely inadmissible in Scots law. This is an absolute guarantee and any mention of a previous conviction renders an abandonment of the trial. No ifs, not buts. The only (very minor) exceptions to this rule are if it is required to show a previous conviction to substantiate the charge – if the accused is charged with breaking out of prison, it is obviously the case that one must show why they were in prison in the first place. English law has no such rule and previous convictions are frequently allowed. Where is the Supreme Court human rights-based judgement on previous convictions as evidence in English courts?
5) Character evidence and collateral evidence are completely inadmissible in Scottish criminal cases unless the accused, as a part of his defence, tried to establish their good character – in which case the crown is allowed to lead evidence that they are not. Otherwise, they are never allowed to do so. English law has no such protection. Where is the Supreme Court human rights judgement on character and collateral evidence in English law?
These are just five examples. So, in order to achieve this uniform human rights across the whole of the UK who should bend? Should English defendants have these rights restored/granted to them or should Scotland be able to change these ancient protections without a peep from the UK Supreme Court, but as soon as they change something that English law might already have then all hell should break loose? This is a wholly unsatisfactory situation and we all know where it’s going to lead. You heard it here first – wait and see what Lord Carloway’s review brings.
#4 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:40 pm
No it doesnt mean its equal to the English law systems view (remind me where Lord Hope was born, educated, practiced law, became a judge etc?)
These things are all areas where Scots law gives people GREATER rights than England – you cant go to UKSC and get them downgraded – thats a fallacy and you know it!
#5 by Don on June 2, 2011 - 10:27 pm
In the Cadder ruling, law lords sitting in Edinburgh decided that Scottish judicial practice didn’t breach his human rights because of extra safeguards in place such as the need to corroborate all evidence. Unlike in England, no one in Scotland has ever been convicted based on what they say to the police during that initial interview. Now, one of the proposed responses to the Cadder ruling is to remove this need for corroborating evidence, making Scottish justice less just than it currently is. So it’s not the fallacy you claim it to be. The decision was based on the precedent set of ruling against the practice of torture in the likes of Turkey. Our police force may not be perfect, but I’m sure they don’t resort to torture for the 6 hours before an accused can see a lawyer. Of course, Scots law isn’t precedent based either (that’s an English law thing) so you can see the mission creep happening.
I believe the Supreme Court got it wrong here and the consequences could be dire for our judicial system. Why do so many onionists claim on the one hand that there are Scottish law lords sitting at the supreme court so they’re perfectly in touch with Scots law and equal to any of law lord in Edinburgh, but on the other hand accept wholeheartedly that their decisions are supreme to any made in Scotland even if, as in the Fraser case, one law lord’s opinion overrides the decision of seven others purely because of geography?
#6 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:10 pm
yes, one of the proposed responses might be to remove the need for corroborating evidence (if you were being petty), how about the better response of giving people a lawyer?
The decisions of the Supreme Court are taken in light of human rights. Fundamental, Universal human rights. But hey, if an independant Scotland doesnt want to have those rights, go right ahead, I’m sure that will win you the vote. Not.
#7 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 6:57 pm
Is it a better response, though? How many wrongful convictions are there in England where the defendant’s confession was the key piece of evidence (I don’t know, myself, I’m asking the question)?
I presume, since you assert it’s a better system, that you have some evidence of this. Would you like to share?
#8 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 4:11 am
And for the record, the Cadder decision and its fallout really puts Scots law back into the positition it was in forty years ago in respect to access to a lawyer. It was the Thomson commission and a Labour government that caused this problem in the first place.
#9 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 4:09 am
Firstly, if you don’t know what a fallacy is, don’t use the word – that is one of my own pet annoyances, People use the word fallacy far too often when it really doesn’t apply.
Anyway, moving on. It will result in a loss of some of these protections – just wait until the Carloway review is published and no doubt adopted in full or in part. The Carloway review is a direct result of the Cadder case. I can’t be bothered providing links to it like I did in my other posts, but a quick and simple Google search will tell you everything you need to know.
As a matter of fact, if you read my post again I never once said that you could go to the UKSC and get rights downgraded. Implying that I did say it IS a fallacy and YOU know it (a straw man to be precise).
#10 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 1:29 pm
Colin
This is the kind of information that needs to be included in the press accounts of this story but as usual Scottish journalism has been superficial and cynical. I’m glad there is going to be an expert panel on the issue of appeals to the Supreme Court, but when are we going to see a concerted effort into raising the standards of Scottish journalism, perhaps a monthly on-line competition for 1st prise for the worst examples of Scottish journalism would be a start.
#11 by Mandy on June 2, 2011 - 7:26 am
“a London court reviewing and overturning the decision of a Scottish court when Scots Law and English Law are two separate kettles of fish seems wrong. However, even just a little bit of digging into the precedents and rules that are in place show that the UK Supreme Court is absolutely the appropriate place for certain cases to be heard”
This is a contradiction seems wrong or absolutely the right place.I think Dr Bill Reynolds sums up why its wrong and the threat to the Scottish legal system by creep.
#12 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 8:12 am
If the Scottish legal system doesnt respect basic human rights, it is absolutely right it is threatened. All right minded folk should be appaled that until this recent case, there was no need for the prosecution to disclose all the evidence to the defence. Shocking. But absolutely fine, according to the SNP.
#13 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 10:10 am
The irony of this coming from a member of a party which believes in mandatory sentencing is so obvious I don’t really need to comment, just invite people to share the sick joke.
#14 by Aidan Skinner on June 2, 2011 - 1:25 pm
Labour party members are allowed to disagree with policy. I do. Is that an unfamiliar concept to you in the SNP?
#15 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:42 pm
Of course it is unfamiliar to them! If you disagree with El presidente Salmond, you are a traitor to Scotland.
#16 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 8:46 am
Uh, oh, lost the argument so resort to the dictatorship jibes coined by Cameron, proving all onionists are really just tories in sheeps clothing.
#17 by Indy on June 3, 2011 - 10:32 am
It’s hardly worth responding to this but I feel I should point out that people who regularly and publicly disagree with Alex Salmond and SNP policy – Jim Sillars for example – have no problems maintaining their SNP membership. There is no effort to shut them up far less expel them – which I suspect would be the fate of any Labour member who publicly challenged the Labour orthodoxy.
I would also point out that Alex Salmond works very closely with people who have in the past challenged his leadership such as Alex Neil, Mike Russell and Roseanna Cunningham. That’s not exactly in line with attempts to portray him as some sort of control freak.
#18 by James on June 3, 2011 - 10:37 am
I’m no Labour person, as you know, but that’s nonsense. They haven’t expelled or even deselected Malcolm Chisholm, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and the rest.
#19 by Tony on June 3, 2011 - 10:56 am
Dennis Canavan was rejected as a candidate by the new labour leadership despite enjoying the support of 97% of his local party membership.
John
No offence but your negativity regarding Salmond and the SNP is usually without too much substance. Comes across as a wean continually lashing out.
#20 by James on June 3, 2011 - 11:11 am
True, and Alex Salmond was once, unbelievable as it now sounds, expelled from the SNP for being too left-wing, along with Kenny MacAskill, Stewart Stevenson, Rob Gibson, Stewart Maxwell and others.
#21 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:44 pm
Tony
Its probably a response to the unrelenting positivity and agreement with every utterance of the Great Leader.
#22 by Aidan Skinner on June 2, 2011 - 1:30 pm
(hit enter to soon) Also, mandatory minimums may be ineffective, but they aren’t an infringement of human rights. So, really. whist.
#23 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:41 pm
Remind me which party wants to introduce mandatory sentences for those found guilty of sectarian crimes?
Hint – they won the election.
#24 by Indy on June 3, 2011 - 10:33 am
Untrue.
#25 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:12 pm
Strange – thats what the Great Leader was saying on the TV the other night. Must be a unionist plot and they dubbed his words.
#26 by Allan on June 2, 2011 - 8:51 pm
But John, if you dig deeper, you will find instances where the prosecution deliberately withheld evidence in a criminal trial. Interestingly enough, considering who we are talking about, the case that springs to mind is the crown v Abdelbasset Al Megrahi – where the break in to Heathrow Airport on the morning of the bombing was witheld from not just the trial but only came out nine months after the trial.
This has only come out because it is a high profile case, that had lost of tabloid attention. Scottish justice has not been in the best of health for quite some time.
#27 by Don on June 2, 2011 - 11:05 pm
It’s interesting to ponder on what would happen here if Megrahi had not been released. Obviously, this would be a similar scenario to the Fraser case (non disclosure of evidence).
Would the onionists be so full of glee if the Supreme court had ordered (or even just gave the opinion) that Megrahi should be released?
#28 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:14 pm
I have always said that he should have maintained his appeal. Despite me wanting him to remain in jail for a long time for the crime he committed, he too has human rights, and they should be respected. If there were legal grounds to challenge the conviction on that basis, it should have been done. The fact that it wasnt suggests those grounds werent as strong as they were in the Fraser case.
#29 by Allan on June 5, 2011 - 9:40 pm
John.
Non disclosure is only part of the problem with the conviction of Mr Megrahi. His conviction is unsafe, due to a number of factors, chef among them being the debate about where the bomb was placed on the plane (Malta, Frankfurt or Heathrow?).
#30 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:46 pm
I’m not expert enough on the case to say whether it was unsafe – but as I said I would have liked him to have had his appeal so that many of these things could be further tested.
#31 by Scott on June 2, 2011 - 11:06 pm
The supreme court happens to be located in London but it is not an English court – other than when it hears English appeals. It sits as a Northern irish court in Northern irish appeals, a scottish court in Scottish appeals, and an English court in English appeals.
in considering devolution issues in criminal cases the Supreme Court considers either (a) questions of legislative competence – where the power of Holyrood to pass laws is in dispute (as was the case in martin and Millar v HMA, a decision which provoked no fuss from the scottish government – possibly because the Supreme Court supported a wide purposive analysis of legislative competence where a reserved issue was touched incidentally); or (b) instances where the prosecution or judiciary have acted in a manner whcih is contrary to EU law or to the European Convention on Human Rights (the rules are found in Sch 6 to the Scotland ACt – as amended with reference back to the Lord Advocate being a Scottish minister). This power has been in existence since the Scotland Act came into force. The first case to confirm it was Starrs v Ruxton (reported in 2000) and the power is very limited, with around one case a year to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and now the Supreme Court.
On human rights issues the UK is the signatory to the Convention. There is no special Scottish or English issue in relation to human rights. The Supreme Court applies Strasbourg jurisprudence (by which I mean in the widest sense cases from the European Court, its Grand Chambr, and jurisdictions around Europe interpreting the ECHR).
Salmond’s concern is that the Supreme Court can directly deal with cases rather than giving mere advisory opinions (which is not strictly correct as the SCUK decisions are remitted back to the High Court of Justiciary to consider). Whether that is a justifiable approach can be considered in the context of the Nat Fraser case. There, the Crown withheld information from the defence. The evidence withheld came from two police officers. The Crown counsel in the case indicated that if he had known of the evidence (it was also withheld from him by Crown office) he would have abandoned the case. The High Court of Justiciary on appeal siad the defence should have asked for this evidence (that it didn’t and couldn’t know existed). The Supreme Court said, hang on a minute you have denied Fraser a fair trial. The SCUK decision gives Fraser (an unlikely figure as a new Oscar Slater) a remedy, the Crown the power to seek a retrial. If Salmond had his way Fraser would remain convicted and entitled to compensation from the state for contravention of his rights. Personally, I prefer to live in a system where Fraser can get direct redress in the specific facts of that case – and where the Crown can seek a retrial. Leaving Fraser without an appellate remedy, where his defence was fatally compromised by the Crown withholding evidence is – to me – absolutely unacceptable. And that this case (where the actions of the Crown are plain for anyone to read) is the one that has triggered the furore, thereby distracting attention away from the Crown’s behaviour in that case, is bizarre.
#32 by Indy on June 3, 2011 - 10:47 am
If there is no special Scottish or English issue in relation to human rights law then can you explain to us laypeople why it appears that in England & Wales leave is required to take an appeal to the Supreme Court but in Scotland it is not?
I presume you are not claiming that possible miscarriages of justice are unique to Scotland – look at good old George Davis for example. I always knew he was innocent.
But seriously why should English and Welsh people effectively have a more restricted access to justice? Don’t you thini that England and Wales should be brought into line with Scotland by removing the requirement to obtain the leave of the Court of Appeal?
#33 by Alex Buchan on June 3, 2011 - 12:53 pm
This will never happen, of course, as you knowm which explains why there does still need to be a review of how the Scottish courts relate to the S.C.
#34 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:15 pm
As it happens I do. I believe in Justice being available to all as easily as possible. Unlike the SNP who want to restrict it to those who have the time and money to take an appeal to Strasborg.
#35 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:23 pm
Well since many defendants would still have their legal costs paid for through legal aid, that’s little more than a blatant slur.
#36 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:48 pm
Leaving legal aid aside (as you may know there are moves to restrict it) what about the time issue? Is it fair that people have to wait several years to have a case heard at Strasborg?
#37 by Scott on June 3, 2011 - 10:20 pm
There is a conflation of 2 issues here. In civil appeals there is no requirement for leave provided that it is certified by counsel. Appeals in civil cases were available to the House of Lords from just after the passage of the Acts of Union (the first case Greenshields is in 1711. The Supreme Court therefore occasionally ends up with ridiculous appeals. The judges complain about this. It would be preferable to have a leave requirement granted by the Inner House of the Court of Session or the Supreme Court (and my impression is that many Supreme Court judges would agree).
In criminal appeals I set out the position below. There is no automatic right of appeal in Scotland to the Supreme court. Applicants apply for leave to the High Court of Justiciary, and if refused there can apply for leave to the Supreme Court. This rule has been in place since 1999 (with previous applications being to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council). The position is virtually identical to that in England in that there is no automatic right of appeal from thwe Court of Appeal (criminal division) but an application for leave to appeal can be made. If refused then application can be made for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court. The current English rules are in legislation from 1968. It appears that the First Minister (or rather his advisers) are not aware of them – despite them being well known and publicised in various places including (for example) the website of the Supreme Court.
#38 by baz1860 on June 2, 2011 - 7:30 am
I’m not so convinced that they ‘jumped on a moving train’ so much as they en-masse jumped out in front of one.
While it’s probably a bad idea for English/Welsh judges (as I understand the makeup of the UK Supreme Court to be – I’m not entirely cognisant with the breakdown however) to be overturning decisions made by Scottish judges in a Scottish court held under Scots Law, from what I’ve read, I believe the SNP seem to be making an argument based on a distinction that doesn’t really exist – in the instances of Human Rights cases, which I understand to be the only ones with can be referred to the UK Supreme Court, the Court hears them under the auspices of the EU declarations on Human Rights, and decides whether the convictions are ‘safe’ under those laws and statutes. The bigger question is why are there situations where Scots Law is still incompatible with European law on Human Rights?
#39 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 8:11 am
The case was heard by Lord Hope as the lead judge in this case. On matters of Scottish law, the UK Supreme court has a protocol of deferring to their Scottish members. However, there wasnt an issue of “understanding Scottish law”, its about basic human rights.
You’re right – why is Scottish law (allegedly so perfect, according to Alex Salmond) violating basic human rights such as the right for a defence to have all the evidence?
#40 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 8:40 am
Good one Baz, I’m not up on the law but I agree that a more important question is why are appeals that are conducted outside of Scotland being upheld? And, as you say, is this because ECHR is incompatible with Scots Law?
Incidentally, I believe there are two Scottish judges that sit on the UK Supreme Court.
#41 by Colin on June 2, 2011 - 12:52 pm
Indeed it is a bigger issue – but there are cases where Scots law goes above and beyond the call of duty in terms of ECHR (incidently this has nothing to do with the EU).
There is currently no protection of these rights either in Strasbourg or in London, which is why Professor Neil Walker’s solution need to be looked at closely.
The UK Supreme Court has two Scottish judges, one Northern Irish judge and the rest are from England and Wales (who share a legal system).
Also, far more than just human rights cases go to London. All civil cases go there (where they are usually decided by the two Scottish judges where the rest just “fall into line”) and devolution issues also includes any laws that might breach the European Communities Act.
However, it should be remember that one can appeal on a human rights grounds to the UK Supreme Court WITHOUT leave to appeal from the lower court. This happens in no other common law jurisdiction or indeed in England where one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court from their courts without leave to do so from a lower court. It is obvious why this was inserted into the Scotland act – because no Scottish court would give leave for the appeal in the first place. It is clearly riding roughshod over Scottish justice in that respect.
#42 by Alistair on June 6, 2011 - 9:20 pm
“However, it should be remember that one can appeal on a human rights grounds to the UK Supreme Court WITHOUT leave to appeal from the lower court. This happens in no other common law jurisdiction or indeed in England where one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court from their courts without leave to do so from a lower court. It is obvious why this was inserted into the Scotland act – because no Scottish court would give leave for the appeal in the first place. It is clearly riding roughshod over Scottish justice in that respect.”
I’m sorry, but this is just simply wrong. In England and Wales the process is as follows:
The Applicant must seek leave to appeal from the court that granted the order. If that leave is refused leave can be sought from the UK Supreme Court (formally the House of Lords). The following document from the UK Supreme Court advising people on how they can take a case to the Supreme Court explains the system:
http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/docs/bringing-case-to-UKSC.pdf
In Scotland on devolution issues leave is first sought from the High Court of Justiciary (if in relation to a criminal case) and if refused can then be sought directly from the UK Supreme Court. In the Fraser case the High Court refused to even consider human rights issues!
The fact is all UK jurisdictions must follow the same rules and the same processes when taking cases to the UK Supreme Court.
#43 by mav on June 2, 2011 - 8:15 am
to answer Baz, the UK Supreme Court includes representative judges from all 4 parts of the UK (the clue is in the name). 2 Scottish judges, ‘ord Hope and Lord Rodger, with 40 years of Scots High Court experience between them, sat on the Nat Fraser case.
The SNP saw no issue with the set-up in April. What brought the change? The judgement, the majority govt or a re-appraisal of the facts. Given that their initial outbursts seemed so ill-thought out (Eck drawing comparison with the House of Lords for example) and also the timing of it all, we can discount the last option. So we are left with a choice. Either the SNP believes it can threaten the judiciary into submission, or the SNP are doing exactly what the other parties warned against – being distracted from the real problems of govt by their main aim of indepenence. Neither are attractive options.
Despite MacAskills spectacular own goal of threatening to withhold court funding by saying ‘he who pays the piper calls the tune’ I don’t believe they really want to make the courts subservient to them. Rather Kenny is what he always has been, over-rated and prone to stupid comments.
Instead I think what we are seeing is is one of Salmond’s big problems; conceit. He has always had a tendency to over-reach, to believe he is invincible. He had the Midas touch until 5th May, but it deserted him here.
#44 by Colin on June 2, 2011 - 12:54 pm
They saw issue with it at least as far back as in January 2010, which was why they commissioned a report on it.
I don’t know how they felt back in 1998, but interestingly, it was Tory peers, lawyers and politicians who were most appalled at the idea of Scottish criminal cases going to London and were given personal assurances that this would not happen when the then Scotland Bill was debated in parliament. How times change.
#45 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 1:52 pm
That is simply not true.
The Scottish Government submitted a response to the consultation on the Scotland Act which sought to remove the role of the Supreme Court in Scottish criminal cases prior to the Nat Fraser case.
#46 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 2, 2011 - 8:33 am
I’m not saying that Scots law is perfect.Nor am I saying that we don’t need a system that allows people acces to appeals.What I am saying is that there is a need to protect what decision making powers we still have in Scotland.While some logical points have been made,there is a danger that we fail to notice decision making powers being removed.
Someone once said that powers devolved could be taken back.It is also the case that the spirit of the act of union has been frequentely violated.I believe that Jim Wallace is trying to insert something into the Calman bill that threatens the authority of Scottish law.I dont have the details available just now and my wife is calling for my attention.
The following anecdote illustyrates my concerns.In 1974 I wrote an artivle in the Scotsman about my concern that the Scottish General Nursing Council was being wound down,and that future decisions about the profession would be taken by a UK body in London.I also wrote to my Liberal MP who wrote to a Labour minister .The reply to me was that they couldnt understand my concern.That is the sad fact.I believe that they couldnt underrstand my concerns.My concern is that the freedom to make your own decisions and choices is something that you do not easily give away.I do not think we are better than anyone else but I do value independence.That is very compatible with collaboration and internationalism.I also understand that individuals should have freedom of choice.However,I can challenges for Scotland to hold on to what it has got,never mind progress to greater decision making powers.
#47 by Nconway on June 2, 2011 - 9:13 am
Scotland goes pop helps throw light on the issue
“This isnt about human rights ,because the European Convention is incorporated into Scots law and no one in government is suggesting that should change,it isnt also about speed again because a Scottish court could act just as fast as the UK Supreme court,and it isnt about the Supremes court ability to adjudicate on genuine devolution matters.The problem is the way that the scotland Act irrationally defines anything relating to the Eu convention on human rights as a devolution issue>since the High Court of Justiciary performs the same function in Scotland as the final court of appeal for criminal cases that the UK supreme court performs in England and Wales ,it would be far more logicically consistant for a Scottish court to also deal with human rights appeals in criminal cases ,and for the Supreme court to do the same for cases in its own criminal jurisdiction”
#48 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 9:16 am
The ECHR may be incorporated into Scots Law but that doesn’t mean that a defendant doesn’t have a right to appeal on that same basis.
#49 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 1:31 pm
I don’t think that is the issue. Alex Salmond had an article in the Scotsman yesterday which set out the objections.
“Currently the UK Supreme Court can hear appeals on human rights grounds in Scottish criminal cases even when the High Court of Justiciary in Scotland has not granted leave to appeal. By contrast, in England an appeal to the Supreme Court is possible only with the leave of the Court of Appeal and only when a point of general public importance is at stake.
The intended role of the Supreme Court in Scottish Criminal cases is to consider “devolution issues”, mostly issues related to the European Convention on Human Rights. When the Convention was incorporated into the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish National Party welcomed the move, along with many others. We regarded it as something of a cause for national pride – putting Scotland ahead of the rest of the UK and the Scottish Government continues to believe in protecting the fundamental rights of the citizens of Scotland.
But in practice unforeseen problems have developed which must now be remedied. Article 6 of the Convention which guarantees the right to a fair trial is construed widely by the Supreme Court. This means that it is far easier to raise a “devolution issue” and effectively creates a further right of appeal to the Supreme Court in Scottish Criminal cases. That was never the anticipated role of the Court and is a development which High Court judges in Scotland have expressed concern about. In response to Lord Wallace, the Advocate General’s recent consultation on amendments to the Scotland Bill the Scottish judiciary said:
“By a series of incremental decisions… a major constitutional change has already been brought about in relation to the existence of a right of appeal from a decision of the Criminal Appeal Court to the Supreme Court, and that without the public consultation and careful consideration that such a major constitutional change might have been expected to receive. We cannot regard that as a satisfactory situation.”
The Scottish Government also responded to that consultation setting out our preferred solution of removing the role of the Supreme Court in Scottish criminal cases altogether. That would bring Scotland back into line with other European jurisdictions and would protect the independence of Scots criminal law, as originally guaranteed back in 1707.
The current situation where criminal appeals decided in Scotland by a court of sometimes as many as 7 Scottish judges can be overruled by a Supreme Court bench made up of five judges – or on occasion seven – with a maximum of two from Scotland, must not be allowed to continue. Lord Wallace has an opportunity to rectify matters in the Scotland Bill. The Scottish Government is willing and able to assist with the preparation of suitable amendments to the Bill and there is still an opportunity for such amendments to be considered by the Scottish Parliament.
If the Bill was amended to restore the High Court as the final court of criminal appeal in Scotland, human rights claims would continue to be raised in Scottish criminal cases. The difference would be that a substantial layer of procedure would be removed. Alleged ECHR breaches in relation to criminal justice matters would be raised under the Human Rights Act in the Scottish courts, to be dealt with by Scottish judges familiar with the Scottish criminal law system, with appeal to the High Court of Justiciary and, just as with any other European Jurisdiction, the possibility of appeal on crucial Human Rights issues to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.”
#50 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 2:09 pm
I’d be comfortable with all of that being the status quo Indy. My concern is the rather dramatic way in which this has been raised, a mere month after an election when this was not discussed and only as a knee-jerk reaction to a single trial the likes of which are few and far between.
As I said, set up a working group to study any deficiencies with the current setup, a setup that has been in place for a lengthy time period I hasten to add, but the timing and the cross-border rhetoric from MacAskill and Salmond has been regrettable, unbecoming of their posts and not particularly constructive.
#51 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 2:23 pm
Ok – but what you are critcising therefore is the style rather than the substance of the Scottish Government’s position.
#52 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 2:33 pm
I’m certainly criticising the style and I don’t really care about the substance to be honest as long as Scots have a route to justice when it comes to their human rights, which I believe either the Supreme Court, High Court or Strasbourg would provide (just the Supreme/High Courts are a couple of decades quicker)
But I’m primarily criticising the SNP’s prioritisation of this issue. What is it, 2 cases in the past 5 years? Is this really an important issue for most Scots? Or is it just a timely bit of awareness-raising related to the SNP’s independence plans?
It would be generous to describe this as an example of the Scottish Government hitting the ground running in serving the Scottish people. We saw this issue dominate at FMQs. Do we think anyone outside the legal profession and political sphere really cares?
#53 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 2:44 pm
I think you may be putting the cart before the horse here. Clearly the media care about the substance of the story – that is why they asked Alex Salmond for a comment, that is why GMS asked Kenny MacAskill to speak on the issue in the first place. And the two of them have given the media a story right enough, particularly Kenny.
That does not mean that the SNP has decided to prioritise the matter however. Alex Salmond actually made a speech setting out the SNP’s immediate priorities. There was a day long debate in the Scottish Parliament about it.
I didn’t see any comment from you about that – yet you have chosen to write a piece on this issue?
So what does that say about your priorities?
#54 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 3:11 pm
That’s a bizarre comment Indy. I wrote a post about the SNP’s 100 days, hoping that minimum pricing would feature and then inviting a bit of debate over what else would be good to be in there. I didn’t think I’d need to repeat myself when it transpired that minimum pricing was part of the SNP’s immediate plans.
How does that square with your comment below!?
“Alex Salmond actually made a speech setting out the SNP’s immediate priorities. There was a day long debate in the Scottish Parliament about it.
I didn’t see any comment from you about that – yet you have chosen to write a piece on this issue?”
#55 by Am Firinn on June 2, 2011 - 9:34 pm
Yes, but it isn’t just a new thing. The Advocate General held a consultation last year about devolution issues and acts of the Lord Advocate, and in connection with this both Mr Salmond and Mr MacAskill wrote that they wanted to see the High Court of Justiciary restored to its position at the apex of Scots criminal justice. The letters are publicly available. Then the Advocate General came up with clauses for inclusion in the Scotland Bill, which would formally enact an appeal process in the place of the current “devolution issue” procedure. Mr MacAskill wrote again, saying how unsatisfactory this was, just before the election. In the mean time, Ms Alexander’s Scotland Bill Committee – to which the Scottish Government had shown draft clauses restoring the position pre-devolution – decided it couldn’t give legislative consent to these changes as they needed more detailed discussion – again, just before the election. This issue hasn’t come out of nowhere: it has been under active discussion for months, and it is in the SNP Manifesto.
#56 by Don on June 2, 2011 - 10:42 pm
Whilst it may only be 2 cases, the Cadder ruling has had a big impact on literally thousands of cases,and has effectively turned criminal proceedings upside down. Many potential prosecutions have had to be abandoned and defence lawyers are rubbing their hands at the massive windfall coming their way through appeals, many of which will make their way to the Supreme court because they are based on alleged human rights breaches.
#57 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:16 pm
No alleged human rights breaches about it. I was shocked when I heard that you could be questioned by Police without a lawyer in Scotland. Fundamental right. When it happens in a third world dictatorship, we are rightly up in arms about it. Apparantly not a problem in Scotland, though.
#58 by baz1860 on June 2, 2011 - 11:17 pm
I’m happy to criticise the substance on this one – albeit without defending Nat Fraser.
The SNP are, in effect defending a policy that says that a conviction is acceptable even if the prosecution chooses to pretend evidence that might lead to an acquittal doesn’t exist and that a conviction obtained via tampered evidence is perfectly valid or that interviewing suspects without allowing them access to a lawyer is reasonable.
Again, I make no allegations as to whether any of those things happened in the Fraser case, I merely note that the UK Supreme Court indicated that such things, had they happened, would be in contravention of the ECHR. Personally, I’d prefer that the Scottish jurists who had previously presided over the appeals based on these allegations had taken the time to examine the extent to which the ECHR would be important instead of wasting a lot of time and effort and money letting it go to the Supreme Court
#59 by Indy on June 3, 2011 - 10:49 am
No they are not.
They have made no comment on the individual case for obvious reasons.
#60 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:18 pm
Other than to suggest that the judges got it wrong because they had no knowledge of Scotland beyond a visit to the Edinburgh festival, you mean?
i think thats a pretty big “comment”. And one that not only is totally untrue, its a disgraceful slur on two Judges who have both held the most senior judicial post in Scotland.
#61 by Scott on June 3, 2011 - 9:27 am
There are substantive issues here (on both sides of the argument) and these should be properly debated. For me the inexcusable aspect of the debate is the manner in which the First Minister has personalised this as an attack on Lord Hope. A passing familiarity with Lord Hope’s decisions in the First Division of the Court of Session, and in the Supreme Court (in English cases and Scottish cases) shows him to have been (consistently) a staunch defender of the integrity of a separate Scottish legal system.
#62 by Scott on June 3, 2011 - 9:49 am
One point of information to correct an error that Salmond made the other night, which is repeated by various commenters here, and is repeated in that article.
Salmond argued that there is no right of appeal to the Supreme Court if leave to appeal is refused by the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division) in England (well, he didn’t say exactly that – but it is what meant). This is untrue. It is true that a defendant can seek leave to appeal from the Court of Appeal in England (as the accused can in Scotland from the High Court of Justiciary). It is true that the Court of Appeal can reject that application for leave to appeal (as can the High Court of Justiciary). It is though the case that – even where the Court of Appeal rejects an application for leave to appeal – under ss 33 and 34 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968 a direct application can be made to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal (the Scottish position mirrors this). This happens. And the Supreme Court will grant leave where there are broader issues of public importance (such as, for example, human rights considerations – which is, funnily enough, aside from issues of legislative competence the only issue on which leave could be granted in Scotland). The potential for leave to appeal in England is actually wider than in Scotland as it is not just on human rights considerations. But let’s not let the facts get in the way of political rhetoric.
It was demonstrably untrue for Salmond to assert that this was not the position in England, and in making it (backed up by Paul McBride, whose knowledge of English criminal procedure in his Newsnight Scotland contribution was thereby demonstrated) misleads the public.
Let us have the argument about the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court – but at least let us have the argument based on accurate information, and avoiding gratutious personalised attacks on the judges.
#63 by Am Firinn on June 3, 2011 - 6:40 pm
Scott – you’re right that the UK Supreme Court can overrule a refusal to grant leave to appeal by the Court of Appeal – just as it can in the case of the High Court of Justiciary. But it may do so only where the Court of Appeal has also certified that there is an important point of generally applicable interest. No certification; no appeal. It is the equivalent right to certification the High Court of Justiciary doesn’t have.
#64 by Scott on June 3, 2011 - 10:37 pm
Thanks. The Dunn case (in the Court of Appeal at the end of last year) has I understand been appealed to the Supreme Court on whether the certification aspect is itself ECHR compatible. It will be interesting to see what happens there.
#65 by JPJ2 on June 2, 2011 - 9:36 am
From what I can glean the highest English courts can block the Supreme Court from hearing cases by refusing the appellant liberty to take the case to the Supreme Court. Apparently the highest Scottish Court cannot do so. Doesn’t seem a correct and equal approach to me, if true.
If correct (however badly expressed by me) then it appears that what has been happening with these Scots cases was never intended to happen, and nobody at UK level thought it through.
As for Wallace of the third unionist party, these people will die in the ditch for the union as most of those with a genuine interest in increasing powers for Scotland have left (or never joined the party) in recent years. We see this attitude from Rennie with nonsense talk about a Salmond “steamroller” before Holyrood even sat.
Given that Paul McBride (well known Labour lawyer turned Tory) supports Salmond on this issue, I suspect that the majority of the Scottish judiciary would prefer that the Scottish legal relationship with Europe was like that of other European countries.
To turn the argument on its head, and to reverse the default BBC/Unionist position, surely it is Scotophobia to prevent the legal set up in Scotland being similar to that of other European countries given the separate nature of Scots law?
#66 by IanH on June 2, 2011 - 9:37 am
As I understand it the Supreme Court was only supposed to deal with the ECHR, which was assumed to be no big deal as of course we are compliant 😉
The trouble is that people have realised that almost any appeal against a conviction can be framed as a human rights issue, and the court in danger of turning into a final court of appeal for Scotland for criminal law and not just ECHR.
#67 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:46 pm
So you think that it is perfectly compatible with someones human rights to deny them a fair trial by neglecting to give the defence evidence which the Crown says had it been disclosed would have made them drop the case? Interesting.
#68 by IanH on June 2, 2011 - 6:20 pm
It is difficult to see why the Scottish court rejected the appeal if it is as clear cut as that.
But if the decision is taken by one or two Scottish judges, with others just following their lead then I don’t see why they don’t just have a Scottish court handle the ECHR appeals.
#69 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 8:24 pm
The idea is that we have consistency across the UK with regards to human rights. Otherwise, we could have cases STILL going to Strasborg as the decision in the English HR court was different to a similar one in the Scottish HR court etc.
#70 by Don on June 2, 2011 - 10:45 pm
The problem is, though, is that we don’t have consistency. If the Fraser case had been heard in England, he wouldn’t have been given leave to appeal to the Supreme Court.
Besides, the only way to get consistency is to supplant Scots law with English law. Is that really what we want?
#71 by baz1860 on June 2, 2011 - 11:20 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7937768.stm
This link leads to a story about slopping out whereby Kenny MacAskill sought to supplicate Scots Law to match that of the rest of the UK. I fear a double standard at play here….
#72 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:51 am
Claiming this proves some sort of hypocrisy on the part of MacAskill is a bit of a stretch. MacAskill’s gripe is Scot’s law is being held to a higher standard whilst being open to more interference than the judicial systems south of the border.
#73 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:22 pm
If you read Scott’s comment at #52, he shows that actually you do have the ability to take a case to the Supreme Court in England if refused by the court of appeal. The UKSC may not take the case, but thats a different matter. It doesnt have to take an appeal from Scotland if it thinks there isnt a case to be looked at.
#74 by Am Firinn on June 3, 2011 - 6:44 pm
Ah yes, but see mine below it John. There just isn’t any doubt the High Court in Scotland is worse off than the Court of Appeal in England. And don’t forget we are starting from a place where, until 1999, there could be no interference in Scots criminal law by a London court at all.
#75 by Tormod on June 2, 2011 - 9:37 am
A couple of things spring to mind in England the courts can refuse leave to appeal to the supreme court.
And imagine if the court in strasbourg quashed a conviction in England what whould happen in Westminster?
Would they take it lying down? don’t think so.
The supreme court should not have the power to quash convictions just like strasbourg after all this was it’s intention surely?
#76 by Nconway on June 2, 2011 - 10:22 am
The thing is they can ,in Scotland
#77 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 10:27 am
Regarding the issue, I am not going to venture an opinion because frankly I don’t understand the ins and outs of it. I suspect that few people actually do.
But the fact that people like Lord Fraser of Carmylie Eilish Angioli are complaining about it suggests to me that this is not a Nationalist issue with a capital N though it may be one with a small n.
And I would be surprised if either Iain Gray or Annabelle Goldie takes significant issue with Kenny MacAskill’s essential position – though they may take issue with the way he expresses it. But that is about style, not substance.
#78 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:46 pm
Lord Fraser has changed his tune – no doubt some will say that he has been “got at”, but I believe that it is more down to the facft that he has now read the details of the case, and seen Salmond and MacAskill’s reaction.
#79 by Scott on June 2, 2011 - 11:14 pm
Lord Fraser has backtracked. As for the former Lord Advocate I can’t imagine why the head of the prosecution service criticised by the Supreme Court for deliberately withholding evidence in a murder trial – when the independent Crown counsel (now Lord Turnbull) indicated that if he had been aware of it he would have abandoned the prosecution – could possibly find anything to criticise in the Supreme Court.
#80 by An Duine Gruamach on June 2, 2011 - 10:48 am
Is the lack of Scots judges in the ECHR not a bit of a red herring? Surely if the arrangement were changed so that the UK Supreme Court was taken out of the Scottish equation, Scots judges would be appointed to the ECHR (possibly withdrawn from the UK Supreme Court?)
#81 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:48 pm
No. Scotland is not a signatory to the European Court of Human rights. The UK is entitled to a single judge. He currently happens to be English. If he were to be replaced by a Scottish Judge, do you think England would be foaming at the mouth as most nats are here?
#82 by Andrew on June 3, 2011 - 12:38 pm
Who’s foaming at the mouth?
#83 by Jim, Glasgow on June 2, 2011 - 11:00 am
I believe the SNP’s main problem with the Supreme Court is that it is able to overturn legal decisions made by a Scottish court. Whereas the European court in Strasbourg cannot overturn decisions it can only advise the court that made the original decision, this means the original court has to decide what is required to comply with the ECHR. This would mean the legal consequences would be decided in a Scottish court rather than one outside Scottish jurisdiction.
#84 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:49 pm
Which is a fair enough comment – except the UK Supreme Court has not overturned any Scottish decisions – merely given its opinion adn referred the matter back.
#85 by Don on June 2, 2011 - 10:48 pm
The fact the Supreme Court only provided an opinion, when it could very well have delivered a decision, perhaps says a lot in itself.
#86 by Scott on June 2, 2011 - 11:18 pm
Could you explain what this comment means? The jurisdiction of the Supreme Court (as with the jurisdiction of the Judicial Committee of the Privy COuncil) on devolution issues in criminal cases is very limited as the SCUK recognises in the few cases it hears.
#87 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:57 am
I merely meant that perhaps the Supreme Court recognises how contentious their role in Scots criminal cases can be.
For all many are uninterested (or fain disinterest) in what is happening here, this could well turn out to be the gift that keeps on giving. As our rights are eroded, step by step, each time the finger can point at the Supreme Court. “Oh, we’d still have the need for corroborating evidence if it hadn’t been for the Supreme Court”, etc, etc.
#88 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:23 pm
But the court cant take away existing human rights. So your point about corroborating evidence is a fallacy.
#89 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:10 pm
Except it’s not. Sticking your head in the sand won’t change the fact that there is a real possibility that Scots judicial system will be changed to remove the need for corrobaration.
I think that’s a bad move and outweighs the gains made by having access to a lawyer from minute 1 instead of after 6 hours.
#90 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:31 pm
Yes there is that possibility, but not due to the Supreme court’s ruling. The need for corroborating evidence doesnt mean a suspect shouldnt have a lawyer. The suspect could have a lawyer from the 1st minute, and the police could still need corroborating evidence.
#91 by The oracle on June 2, 2011 - 11:15 am
I’ll bet big money the unionists won’t “win”.
Here’s how it will play….
Scotland announces uk court incompatible with scots law,
Uk stupidly disagrees,
Scotland cites act of union as evidence,
Uk tries to legislate the terms of that act away,
Scotland enters de facto independence as a result.
Uk ignores this and lobbies bodies to ignore Scotland as a soverign state,
Scotland holds referendum on this backdrop, snp get their yes vote
International community bows to referendum result,
Uk fights but ultimately has to bow to int pressure
The uk unionists would be very wise to leave the issue alone as it plays into snp hands.
#92 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 11:44 am
I don’t think Nconway’s point is being acknowledged here. Technically the High Court of Judiciary is the final court of appeal in criminal cases, but lawyers are circumventing this by appealing under devolution legislation and in so doing undermining the system. The High Court is supposed to be reviewing cases on the basis of the ECHR but the fact that the Supreme Court has found differently in the two cases means that something is not right in the High Court’s decisions, this is where our attention should be, as others have said. This may end up being the conclusion of the team of experts, and an alternative solution may be proposed.
In the wider context I think these kinds of issues are double edged for Alex Salmond and the SNP. Yes it gives their opponents ammunition, but it also subliminally conveys the message that on every issue the SNP will always fight Scotland’s corner. Even if people don’t necessarily agree on the details, as in this case, it is this characteristic that marks the SNP off from all of the other parties and in the longer term the more publicity this generates the more that image is confirmed. So I don’t think this damages the SNP long term.
#93 by Tormod on June 2, 2011 - 12:08 pm
There are several strands of narrative on this topic that are being bound up together instead of being treated indvidually.
First is that I don’t think anybody is arguing that a prisoner rights to a fair trial under ECHR should be ignored, if a miscarriage of justice is found it should be rectified.
The question is how, where. And would should courts in England have the ability to refuse leave to appeal to the SC but not Scotland.
Jim Wallace taking about British justice aye right laddie!
#94 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:50 pm
And the High Court of Judiciary said in this case that Nat Frasers human rights wernt affected – yet its plain to virtually everyone that they were – he didnt get a fair trial. The Crown even said they would have dropped the case if the evidence had been disclosed!
#95 by Am Firinn on June 3, 2011 - 6:52 pm
I’m not arguing with you on this point though. I don’t know whether Mr Fraser is guilty or not: but he was certainly fitted up. And that should be enough to have him freed, or none of us are safe from the 4am knock at the door. But that is not an argument for letting a foreign court loose on our law: it is just conceivable (!) English courts make mistakes too: but do you imagine they would agree to interpose, between themselves and the ECtHR, another layer of jurisdiction in which three quarters of the judges were French?
#96 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:51 pm
BUt they are having imposed a court where judges are not english – Lords Hope and Rodger, for instance will often sit on an “English” case. Thats because this is a UK court, not an English one, not a Northern Irish one, and not a Scottish one.
#97 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 12:08 pm
A supplementary point is that in England and Wales the Court of Appeal has to give leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, in Scottish cases there can be an appeal to the Supreme Court without leave to appeal. If nothing else this anomaly gives the lie to the idea this is merely equalising things throughout the UK. The situation is not ideal, and again I would say that if we still had a Labour/LibDem government in Scotland it is unlikely anything would have been done. It is this contrast that plays so much to the SNPs advantage, because as others have said this casual disregard to the situation in Scotland has been endemic and still would be if we didn’t have an SNP administration in Edinburgh.
#98 by Joe on June 2, 2011 - 12:22 pm
Why do we need yet another expert group when as recently as last year the Advocate General held an informal consultation (led by several senior Scots Law figures) and the Scottish Government published their own research on the UKSC?
http://www.oag.gov.uk/oag/223.81.html
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/01/19154813/0
It seems to me that the Scottish Government should be looking closer to home – why did it take 12 years and a court outside Scotland (UKSC or Strasburg the outcome would have been the same) for someone to recognise that Scots Law (Cadder) was incompatible with ECHR? Likewise why did the appeal courts in Scotland turn down Fraser’s appeals when it was quite blatantly a case of an unfair trial (the original trial judge effectively said if the jury could not believe the rings evidence, they could not convict). It seems the Law Society takes this view as well.
These aren’t cases of Scots Law being eroded by English courts – they’re cases of Scottish judges applying European Law. Both Cadder and Fraser were decided by the Scottish justices – the other 5 and 3 non-Scots respectively supported the arguments of their Scottish colleagues (just as the Court intends to work – http://www.digbybrown.co.uk/digbybrown/export/sites/default/db/images/speech_110401.pdf)
Perhaps McAskill should get his own house in order before he starts acting like judge, jury and executioner.
#99 by Colin on June 2, 2011 - 12:34 pm
I think the SNP are correct to raise the problem with appeals to the Supreme Court, but they seem to be going about it in the wrong way and proposing no good solutions.
Interestingly enough, Kenny MacAskill was meeting with professor Neil Walker yesterday, which suggests to me that he might be looking for a solution as Neil Walker already looked at this issue back in 2010. You posted:
“A panel of experts assessing this potential issue in a sober, controlled manner and putting forward recommendations would have been a much more approriate way to suggest changes to a hitherto largely undiscussed and uncared for aspect of Scottish civic life…”
This has already been done:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/01/19154813/0
And as someone who has been personally taught by Neil Walker and found him to be an incredibly clear and concise jurists, I would be perfectly happy for his proposals to be put forward or for him to be on any future panel. If you read the document the recommendations were that the Supreme Court be staffed with at least five Scottish judges. This seems to be the solution that should be taken. The idea that seven Scottish judges can be over-ruled by two Scottish judges is completely inadequate and is opposed to the interests of justice. Yes, we should have some form of human rights appeal before Strasbourg as this will be a way of forming human rights so they are more fitting within Scots law (as Strasbourg has even less knowledge of Scots law than the already lacking UK Supreme Court), but at the same time, there is really no reason why these judges would then need to sit in London at all at extra expense to the taxpayer – there is no reason why the High Court of Justiciary cannot sit as a court of appeal on human rights issues.
There are some who are opposed to what the SNP is currently doing (and I am one of those concerning many aspects of their approach) and I have seen it stated that there was no problem with English Justices on the Supreme Court in Scottish cases as they usually “fell into line”. These were the appalling words of Professor Peter Duff of Aberdeen University. ( http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Kenny-MacAskill–stands-accused.6778234.jp?articlepage=2 ).
So this is the situation that these people are happy with? A supreme court in which two judges make the decision and the rest simply follow what they have to say? I’m sorry, but if two judges can over-rule seven in such an easy fashion then that is a huge problem for any system of justice, not just a Scottish one. Furthermore, there have been times when Lord Hope and Lord Rodger (the two Scottish judges) have had differing opinions. It has then been up to the remaining three English or Northern Irish judges to decide which camp to fall into. We have had 3-2 decisions that have fallen like this. Although this has never happened in a criminal appeal so far, it has happened several times in civil appeals, which, it could be argued, is an even worse situation since civil appeals go to the Supreme Court as a matter of course, whereas human rights appeals go only based upon their human rights, where it has been argued that these shoud be uniform across the whole of the UK. Civil law, on the other hand, is not.
This is a problem that needs sorting and the SNP are going about it the wrong way. However, the supporters of the status quo are equally wrong and have made some statements in the last few days that can only be described as brazen and unthinking. Yet our media, for whatever reason, has been completely uncritical of their position and approach – one which is just as untenable as the SNP one.
#100 by Scott on June 2, 2011 - 10:39 pm
Of course Neil Walker recommended a continuing right of appeal from High Court of Justiciary to the Supreme Court in criminal cases where there was a human rights or broader constitutional issue involved (while Scotland is part of the UK) – see paras 6.6 and 6.8. He did not recommend a specifically scottish chamber on these issues – as although the model is proposed he rejects it. The SNP government endorsed his report in January 2010.
As for your point on the divisions between Lord Rodger and Lord Hope – they have differed in one Scottish appeal, martin and Millar v HMA on legislative competence. Lord Hope took the view Holyrood could have wider powers than was argued by Lord Rodger in relation to sentencing in road traffic cases. Lord Hope’s views were backed by the majority of the remainder of the panel.
Of course, anyone interested in this should have a look at Lord Hope’s speech to the scottish Young lawyers in April of this year (on line from the Supreme Court website) where he addresses a number of the concerns.
#101 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 4:28 am
Firstly, a specifically Scottish chamber was my own view – I know it’s not the view of Neil Walker, which is why I didn’t attribute it to him…
Secondly, the point I made concerning the differences of opinion between Lord Hope and Lord Roger wasn’t restricted to the one criminal case – there have been a few civil cases as well, which I actually made clear above, so I don’t really know what point you are actually trying to make here. Could you please make it clearer so I could respond to it? Maybe I’m being obtuse by not seeing what you are getting at, but you did say ‘as to your point…’ and then make a statement that didn’t contradict anything I had just said.
Both the Cadder and Frazer judgements were the correct decisions, but the idea that we should only have two Scottish judges where the rest “just fall into line” in all criminal and civil cases that go before the UKSC is absolutely unsatisfactory and should never have been the case. It just seems to bizarre that appeals before seven judges can be effectively overturned by two judges who have a cabal of colleagues to vote with them and make up the numbers so-to-speak.
#102 by Scott on June 4, 2011 - 3:07 pm
You stated the following,
“And as someone who has been personally taught by Neil Walker and found him to be an incredibly clear and concise jurists, I would be perfectly happy for his proposals to be put forward or for him to be on any future panel. If you read the document the recommendations were that the Supreme Court be staffed with at least five Scottish judges. This seems to be the solution that should be taken.”
I took that to mean that you were suggesting that the view of Neil Walker was that – given the 5 judges sit in appellate cases typically – this implied a Scottish chamber. Happy to avoid any confusion on that.
On your second paragraph your line “Furthermore, there have been times when Lord Hope and Lord Rodger (the two Scottish judges) have had differing opinions. It has then been up to the remaining three English or Northern Irish judges to decide which camp to fall into. ” and subsequent sentences implies that division between Lords Hope and Rodger is common. As noted they have differed in only one case. I cannot recall differences between them in any Scottish civil cases. It appears that my recollection of the Scottish appeals is shared by Aidan O’Neill QC http://ukscblog.com/case-comment-martin-v-hm-advocate-miller-v-hm-advocate-2010-uksc-10-part-1 but I’m happy to be corrected on this point if you can identify these 3-2 splits in scottish appeals.
Regarding your observations on the bizarre nature of a 7 judge decision being overruled by a higher court with fewer judges: one can point out that even with a bench of 5 Scottish Supreme Court judges decisions from the Court of Session could be overturned by fewer judges – eg a decision of any full bench (5, 7, 9, 11, 13 , 15 &c judges) could be overturned by a 5 judge Supreme Court even split 3-2. That’s how the system of stare decisis works. It’s not bizarre. It’s a necessary consequence of a system where higher court overrule lower courts. The notion that higher courts can overturn lower courts, no matter how many judges have decided to the contrary, is an inherent part of a system of stare decisis and lies at the root of a system of judicial precedent (even TB Smith accepted this in his final words on the subject in the Stair Memorial Encyclopaedia title on Sources of Law). It’s not a numbers game. It’s a seniority game. But perhaps there is an is/ought dichotomy inherent in your comments that I’m missing.
Of course far from being a cabal who fall into line there is debate between the justices. Issues are raised which can influence the judges (as the Scots contribute in English and Northern Irish decisions). For example, in Fraser Lord Brown didn’t fall into line behind Lord Hope. He doubted (although didn’t dissent). Characterising the other Supreme Court justices as a “cabal” who fall into line is therefore not somewhat inaccurate.
That is not to comment though on the question of whether we should have more justices trained in Scots law in these cases. This is a substantive issue that has been a problem since 1711 (in civil cases) and 1999 (in criminal cases – although the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council did of course occasionally have a majority of Scots on the bench when confirming its jurisdiction in the early cases from the High Court of Justiciary. I have much sympathy with the argument, but this can be separately debated with arguments for and against considered without the personal attacks the First Minister has made on Lord Hope.
#103 by Scott on June 4, 2011 - 3:23 pm
My error in this It should read 7 judge not 67 judge in the first line of the third paragraph.
#104 by Scott on June 4, 2011 - 3:25 pm
And the final line of the penultimate paragraph has a stray “not” that should be omitted.
I wish you had an edit comment facility if only for inept typists such as myself.
#105 by mav on June 2, 2011 - 12:43 pm
the oracle sounds like MacAskill – play alomg, or
else. Has he not noticed it is lawyers leading this fight?
#106 by An Duine Gruamach on June 2, 2011 - 2:51 pm
Yes – lawyers leading on both sides. Lord Fraser of Carmylie and Eilish Angioli are law folk, no?
#107 by Nconway on June 2, 2011 - 1:27 pm
Iain Macwhirters column in todays Herald
More to Supreme Court row than mere posturing
#108 by Colin on June 2, 2011 - 2:41 pm
There is absolutely more to this than mere posturing and that is something that is so darn infuriating about this whole episode. This goes to the very route of some of the inadequacies in our legal system and all our media can do – from the Scotsman and the Daily Record to the BBC is misrespresent facts, claim that the issue isn’t important or line of critics of the government, completely ignoring those who support it.
Not only was I appalled at the coverage of the BBC on election night itself (did anyone watch it? It was like watching a funeral – the hosts could hardly hide their disappointment), but Newsnight last night had an interview with one solicitor who hold the opposite view to the government for ten minutes – no discussion, no counterpoints, nothing. Pathetic.
The media of Scotland leave a lot to be desired – thank goodness for the internet.
#109 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 2:55 pm
Welcome to politics.
#110 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 4:46 pm
“Welcome to politics”? It’s the politics of the imbecilic.
As someone who wants to see Scotland as a better place than it is now, I despair of the level of Scottish journalism. It seems to exhibit a mixture of amateurism and cynicism. It gives the impression that it sees its cynical pursuit of a story as somehow cutting edge journalism. They seem to have no idea of how appallingly cringe-making their image as intellectually-challenged actually is. We know from inside information that BBC Scotland has been pursuing a dumbing down agenda and by regarding this as just the cut a thrust of politics we are letting them off with what is a scandal equally important as any concerns over the Supreme Court.
#111 by Allan on June 5, 2011 - 10:11 pm
Well…. welcome to Scotland more like.
#112 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 8:17 pm
I actually think that many newspapers in time may be become a kind of entertainment resource, part National Enquirer and part soap opera, such is their inability to really stick to a sober analysis and do a deep dive on issues. The Sunday Herald can be a notable exception sometimes. The internet does do a good job of filling a void that is growing, by really getting to the crux of problems. I’m not actually referring to here (as much as I would like to!) but places like Scottish Review should rival front page news on many days.
#113 by David on June 2, 2011 - 3:00 pm
I have been a bit disappointed with the posturing of the Scottish Governement on this issue, given that I feel that the view of the court was correct on both occasions.
Following the Salduz case at the ECHR, I think that it was inevitable that the Cadder case was going to be upheld. Secondly, I think the court was right to acknowledge that the defence had acted unfairly by not disclosing evidence to the prosecution in Nat Fraser;s case. To be honest, I am more concerned about the intial decision reached in the Scottish courts than the one made down in London in this trial.
In any event, if the SNP find it such a pressing issue that the rulings of Scottish courts are being questioned by the UK Supreme Court, then maybe they should consider moving forward the independence referendum in order to secure the jurisdiction of the Scottish courts.
#114 by Tony on June 2, 2011 - 9:56 pm
I have read my way down and many contributors have added worthy points.
I would like to add my two bob’s worth to the Salduz/Cadder result. Salduz was decided in Strasbourg taking into consideration all the consequences in that particular country appealed from, in this case Turkey. Those deciding on ECHR law do not demand uniformity across all jurisdictions. I am not convinced that had Cadder been heard in Strasbourg rather than the London Supreme court of legal imperialism that Cadder would have won. The Scottish criminal legal system had sufficient checks and balances well laid out by Colin # 3 that other legal systems not have. It is a crucial point that those ruling on ECHR takes local conditions into consideration, and do not endeavour to change a system that is working. Hence what was meant for the protection of an abused Kurdish minority (Salduz) held in custody probably would not have been required here. However that chance was removed by the ruling of the Supreme Court.
As a result, we the taxpayers will foot the bill for all the extra lawyers hours. Added to this the Fraser case will have – as others rightly point out – all kinds of extra financial ramifications as all kinds of appeals are framed as devolution issues. I understand that justice may not have been served but were we have arrived goes against the original Articles of union, and we have got here by default. There is an avenue of appeal to Strasbourg, and no case, no matter how needy should serve as to undermine Scottish control of Scottish criminal law outside of the parrameters already signed upto.
I mentioned legal imperialism earlier because that is what it amounts to. Our senior judges will now consider cases knowing that they may be over-ruled by lesser numbers, considering that there is often variance amongst 5 or 7, how can we allow 2 to decide on appeal? Salmond mentioned today that Lord Hope had expressed misgivings about the unintended consequences of the Supreme Court, yet as soon as he get’s the gig there his misgivings go oot the windae. Also the fact that cases do not need leave to appeal in Scotland but do in England shows to me that we are not given due respect.
#115 by Lost Highlander on June 2, 2011 - 3:42 pm
The problem is that the Supreme court only looks at the exact reason that a case was brought to it.
In the case of the cadder ruling it was about being questioned without legal advice present. This was deemed by the supreme court to be against the human rights legislation as the basis was the Salduz vs Turkey case where a minor stated he had been put under duress to confess and forced to sign a confession.
The fact that in Scotland any arrested person has the right to silence was immaterial to the case and that a conviction also reguired corroboration was also immaterial.
So what has the supreme court left us. A mess where literally thousands of cases pending or already dealt with are now having to be reassesed. It has also left the Scottish goverment and the lord advocate looking seriously at historic protections we had and seeing if they have to disapear.
So what happens to a suspect if he now has a solicitor present but has to answer all questions posed to him. If he refuses to answer that is used as evidence against him. And of course corroboration could go as well all to make us closer to other “european” legislation.
#116 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 5:53 pm
i think you are confused. The ECHR cant take away any existing rights over an above the minimum guaranteed. If anyone tried to do that, the decision could be taken to the Uk Supreme Court and challenged!
#117 by Don on June 2, 2011 - 10:58 pm
The need for corroborating evidence isn’t a human right (if it was the Supreme court would be extremely busy dealing with English convictions – assumming the defendant would be given leave to appeal, of course).
If Scottish law is changed to remove the need for corroborating evidence, something that has been seriously proposed due to the Cadder ruling, on what basis could a defendant appeal?
#118 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:27 pm
And why would Scottish law be changed to remove the need for corroborating evidence? Thats nothing to do with the Cadder ruling on having a lawyer present? Thats the Government saying “lets slip this thing in that we’ve always wanted to do and pretend its necessary to solve this other unrelated problem”.
#119 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:08 pm
According to the Supreme Court, the need for corrobation doesn’t provide sufficient checks and balances. That being the case, why make our police forces jump through another hoop? Remove the need for corrobaration and run the risk of miscarriages of justice ala England. That’ll could be the ultimate impact of the Cadder ruling.
#120 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:34 pm
Just because the Supreme Court said that it doesnt provide sufficient checks and balances, doesnt mean tha we should (or have to) get rid of it.
#121 by Scott on June 2, 2011 - 10:43 pm
The supreme court did consider the other balances in the system in Cadder. They are discussed in the judgment. IT was though felt, in accordance with Salduz and the cases that followed it applying its principles in Poland, in the Netherlands, France and elsewhere (each of which had safeguards within their systems – including in france the early role for an investigating judge meaning there was judicial control of the process way before it would happen in Scotland) that the scottish position was not sustainable. This came as news to no-one.
#122 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 3:59 pm
The point I was making was that you are blogging about it – so not really in a position to criticise others for apparently giving it some priority. You’re doing the same yourself are you not?
I would guess you are blogging about it not because you think it is the most important issue facing Scotland but because the press are banging on about it. Ditto the Scottish Government – do you think they had the option od saying nothing?
Granted they have clearly thrown the cat among the pigeons with their response but they did not choose to make this an issue, they simply chose their response to it.
And, yes, you did write a wee bit about the first 100 days of an SNP Government – but before anything had actually been announced and before Alex Salmond had outlined the government’s priorities.
You all pretty much ignored that speech, probably because you had a fair idea of what would be in it. Which brings us back to this issue of prioritisation, doesn’t it?
#123 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 4:59 pm
Well, I would dearly love to be talking about a rolling out of free school meals for all primary school children Indy but, given that that’s not even close to being on the Scottish Government’s agenda, I think I’ll stick to reality if that’s all the same to you.
I don’t understand how this is a story of the media’s making (as you suggest) if the First Minister of all people has articles in national newspapers on it. Yes, the SNP had the option of saying nothing and my humble opinion is that they should have taken that option. I repeat this is only the second instance in five years of such a case involving the UK Supreme Court. The Scottish Government, knowing what would happen if they raised this as an issue, could have focused on other areas for now and picked a better time and a better way to raise its objections.
As for other issues, free school meals would be my preference but, as I say, we won’t go into that unnecessarily as it ain’t gonna happen.
I find it remarkable that you criticise me for blogging about what’s happening in the news on any given day? Governments set the agenda and blogs largely follow.
#124 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 5:12 pm
“I repeat this is only the second instance in five years of such a case involving the UK Supreme Court.”
See Lost Highlander above. This situation may well be a lot more serious than it has been given credit.
#125 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 5:13 pm
The Scottish Government could have said nothing when every single newspaper headline was about Nat Fraser walking free? I think not.
How would you square such a position with the fact that they had already made their objections to the role of the Supreme Court in criminal cases very clear and were in fact lobbying to have the position amended in the Scotland Bill prior to the Fraser case?
Do you really think it would have been credible for them to duck the issue?
#126 by Indy on June 2, 2011 - 5:23 pm
Also, governments don’t always set the agenda. You MUST know that. Did the SNP refere the case to the Supreme Court? Did they deliver the judgement? No, they were reacting to a situation, they did not create it and neither did they choose it.
In fact they rarely set the agenda. The only time political parties really get to set the agenda is during elections.
We are not in the election period now – and the point I was making earlier is that you didn’t blog on Alex Salmond’s speech because you thought it was boring. So did the media.
Why is it boring? Because the SNP has a majority. So there is no tension any more. The whole narrative of the SNP’s first term was about how they were going to manage to get things through parliament. Now that is no longer an issue and, let’s face it, Labour and the Tories are not really in a position yet to start feeding anti-government stories because they are still putting themselves back together after the election.
So that leaves a bit of a news vacuum doesn’t it?
#127 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 7:57 pm
I get where you’re coming from Indy and I get that newspapers sell papers through sewn division rather than peace and harmony. I hope you also get that I have a non-political job, free time is at a premium and I often can only have a cursory look at headlines and rattle off a blogpost rapid fire to satiate my blogging demons. I’d love to sit back and pick and choose more than I do. That might not be how you’d do it if you had a blog (long overdue by the way!) but I don’t think you get to criticise others for what they blog or don’t blog when you don’t even have half the story. Â Â Â
I’ve only just now realised that the Salmond speech that you’re referring to is the one straight after the election. Guess what? I never saw it. Not that I need to go into why but I was mental busy offline around then and it’s only fairly recently that a modicum of calm has descended. (note the string of guest posts around then) Â
If you think I’m purposefully selectful in what I blog about to suit some agenda then there’s not much I can do about that. I can suggest getting out more though….
#128 by Indy on June 3, 2011 - 11:02 am
I wasn;t really criticising you personally, I was trying to highlight the fact that you were critcising the SG for prioritisiing an issue which you were prioritising yourself – and for the same reason. Because everyone else was talking about it.
#129 by Allan on June 5, 2011 - 10:20 pm
I think the thing forgotton here is that most of the red top tabloids had Fraser down as being guilty. If it looks as if it is an unsafe conviction (due to deficiancies in appliying Frasers human rights), then the Tabloids will not be happy that their “man” being released.
#130 by ratzo on June 2, 2011 - 5:24 pm
Jeff, there are some interesting points made on this by Colin – could you also give your response to those?
#131 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 6:08 pm
Yes Colin at 3# and Lost highlander at 46# indicate just why there is far more at stake here than is being acknowledged, especially by the media. One wonders what the media’s agenda is here.
#132 by Alex Buchan on June 2, 2011 - 6:12 pm
That should be Lost Highlander at 52#
#133 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 9:38 pm
And it should be obvious that those points are red herrings. The UK Supreme Court cant take away existing human rights.
Maybe thats why the media hasnt mentioned it.
#134 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 4:20 am
But the Supreme Court doesn’t defend existing rights – such as silence, corroboration, collateral evidence, character evidence, etc. This was all mentioned above and you completely ignored it.
#135 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:35 pm
Show me where the Supreme Court has said that Scottish law should not have a need for corroborating evidence.
#136 by Jeff on June 2, 2011 - 8:06 pm
Yeah, will try to. There are some blog posts that it’s easy to stay on top of the comments for and there’s other that, largely due to work commitments and time constraints, kind of run away from you. This one is the latter!
#137 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 2, 2011 - 6:17 pm
I am proud of the Scottiah governent int heir attempt to protect the authority of the Scottish legal system.Yes we need to question it and we need to ensure that people have access to robust and fair appeal against convictions that are suspect.However,in order to achieve that,we do not need to give a UK court the power to overcome a decision made by a Scottish court.This view is not (as Annabel Goldie suggested today in the Scottish Parliament) anything to do with an objection to London decisions.It is based on the view that one of the few things left to us after the union in 1707 deserves to be defended.
#138 by John Ruddy on June 2, 2011 - 9:39 pm
The alternative is that these decisions are looked at in Strasborg. Which involves a lengthy and expensive process. We should be looknig at making Justice accessible for everyone in Scotland.
#139 by Tony on June 2, 2011 - 10:03 pm
I too was surprised that the tories who are usually stout defenders of Scottish rights within the Union were playing politics here.
Is this the first Unionist salvo in what may be a long long independence political war? methinks aye!
Could any Lib-Dem comment on Rennie’s politiking, as there are bigger issues at stake that stopping the ‘Salmond steamroller’ (sic) Like the erosion of control from Scotland of our system of criminal justice.
#140 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:28 pm
I think its more likely to the first nationalist salvo in a long long independence political war. “Look, the English are attacking our perfect Scottish law!”
#141 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:05 pm
Yeah, because it couldn’t be the onionists at fault here, now could it?
#142 by Tony on June 3, 2011 - 10:03 pm
John
You have actually made some good points on this thread, why spoil it by being silly?
No law is perfect hence why it is ever changing and some people clamour for codification to make that evolving process simpler.
You know fine well that there is a principle at stake here, and I am surprised that even Unionists are happy for a further and completely unneccesary dilution of the Articles of Union 1707. Labour are chancers we know that, but the tories for all their faults have an excellent track record on these issues. Thus I can only come to the conclusion that they are looking at the ‘independence bigger picture’ to the detriment of scotland.
#143 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:55 pm
One the one hand you agree that no law is perfect, and is ever-changing, and on the other you seem to suggest that the Treaty of Union should be cast in Stone for all time?
Well, in that case then, we can ignore Holyrood, as the Treaty of Union in 1707 abolished the Scottish parliament….
#144 by Hen Broon on June 2, 2011 - 6:45 pm
19 That the Court of Session, or College of Justice, do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain. And that the Court of Justiciary do also after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain, and without prejudice of other Rights of Justiciary. And that all Admiralty Jurisdictions be under the Lord High Admiral or Commissioners for the Admiralty of Great Britain for the time being; and that the Court of Admiralty now established in Scotland be continued, and all Reviews, Reductions, or Suspensions of the Sentences in maritime Cases competent to the Jurisdiction of that Court remain in the same manner after the Union as now in Scotland, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall make such Regulations and Alterations as shall be judged expedient for the whole United Kingdom, so as there be always continued in Scotland a Court of Admiralty subject nevertheless to such Regulations and Alterations as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; And that the Heretable Rights of Admiralty and Vice-Admiralties in Scotland be reserved to the respective Proprietors as Rights of Property, subject nevertheless, as to the manner of exercising such Heretable Rights, to such Regulations and Alterations as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain. And that all other Courts now in being within the Kingdom of Scotland do remain, but subject to alterations by the Parliament of Great Britain; And that all Inferior Courts within the said limits do remain subordinate, as they now are, to the Supreme Courts of Justice within the same in all time coming; And that no Causes in Scotland be Cognisable by the Courts of Chancery, Queen´s Bench, Common Pleas, or any other Court in Westminster Hall; and that the said Courts, or any other of the like nature, after the Union, shall have no power to cognosce, review, or alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland or to stop the execution of the same; And that there be a Court of Exchequer in Scotland after the Union, for deciding questions concerning the Revenues of Customs and Excises there, having the same power and authority in such cases, as the Court of Exchequer has in England; and that the said Court of Exchequer in Scotland have power of passing Signatures, Gifts, Tutories, and in other things as the Court of Exchequer at present in Scotland hath; and that the Court of Exchequer that now is in Scotland do remain, until a new Court of Exchequer be settled by the Parliament of Great Britain in Scotland after the Union; and that after the Union, the Queen´s Majesty, and her Royal Successors, may continue a Privy Council in Scotland, for preserving of public Peace and Order, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit to alter it, or establish any other effectual method for that end.
#145 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:31 pm
And that treaty was effectively ammended by the Treaty bringing in the European convention in human rights. You have to have these things be superseded in this way, otherwise we’d still be at war with France.
#146 by Erchie on June 3, 2011 - 6:45 pm
If the Treaty of Union was so amended then that is yet one more breach of the Treat of Union, which does not grant Westminster the right to amend the Treaty of Union
#147 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:37 pm
yeah, we dont want your European Human rights here! We want teh same rights we had in 1707! Quick – burn the witch!
#148 by Lost Highlander on June 2, 2011 - 7:57 pm
Lord Carloway is the high court judge in Scotland who is leading the review of Scottish law after the Cadder ruling.
And his remit SPECIFICALLY states to review the right to silence and corroboration. The other big change possible is that currently once a person has been charged and taken to court the police are no longer allowed to continue to question that person. The implication is that under ECHR this will change and there is nothing to stop Police to continue to interview even up to the date of trial and even into it.
The problem with the supreme court is that it is too focused on single points where as appeal courts weigh all evidence.
#149 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:32 pm
In which case whoever gave him that remit is stupid. Corroboration has nothing whatsoever to do with the right to a lawyer being present. You can still have corroboration even if you have a lawyer.
#150 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:02 pm
Yes you can, but why would you? According to the Supreme Court, it doesn’t provide sufficient checks and balances. That being the case, why make our police forces jump through another hoop? Remove the need for corrobaration and run the risk of miscarriages of justice ala England.
#151 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 4:19 am
Of course it doesn’t, but that is what is going to happen – which is what I tried to say above, although maybe I wasn’t clear enough because you ended up attacking a straw man of my opinion.
The Cadder decision was absolutely the correct decision – but watch as Scots law begins to creep towards English law and become as unsatisfactory as them when it comes to human rights. When that happens there will be no UKSC protection because they don’t seem to care about the loss of these rights in England.
#152 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:56 pm
Scots law will only creep towards English law if we let it. Thats not the fault of the UK Supreme Court, but of our politicians.
#153 by Kinghob on June 2, 2011 - 9:14 pm
It matters not a jot what country any judge in the ‘supreme court’ may have been born in.
Tony Blair was Scottish by birth, his view on the superiority of westminster, in fact the ancient prerogative rights the PM’s erroneously took from her maj the queen or king also show he believes in one man being able to act like a king and decide to say, invade Iraq based on their being elected to Parliament.
No parliamentary debate there.
There is no requirement for a Scots Law perspective to be provided at this poorly thought out court, one of the two ‘Scottish’ judges could have the flu and the other be on holiday when any ‘judgement’ is made but to say that their place of birth makes everything they do or say on a Scottish court conviction, or allows them to be representative of Scots Law or indeed the Scottish people (properly protected by the union treaty 1707) is mistaken.
Also it is rather shallow of the writer to suggest that the Scottish Government should adhere to his own preferred timetable, whimper along while guys like nat fraser are potentially facing freedom after being found guilty of murder most foul indeed, so as to set up some committee that Westminster will have the greatest pleasure in ignoring when it gives its findings.
The Scottish Government has the right to draw this to our attention, just as their unionist counterparts, the ones who got a message from the scottish electorate a mere few weeks ago, enjoyed trying to stick their ham fisted mitts into the question with their obligatory suicidal support of westminster over Scots Law.
I realise the above writer supported some of the reasons and misgivings, but does he know that the deservedly reduced number of MSP’s in the Scottish Parliament appeared quite unable to see a probem?
The ‘partisanship’ in Scotland, when it comes to what is in the Scottish interest, will always be negative from unionists regardless of the impact upon Scotland and it is interesting to see them prove this yet again.
#154 by Erchie on June 3, 2011 - 12:40 am
I’m not surprised this comes from Jeff, he seems to have a big blind spot where Scots issues are concerned
The fact is there is an anomaly betwen the way Scotland and England are treated by the Supreme court. One that puts England on the same footing as any sovereign nation, but reduces Scotland to an inferior position
This may be a cause celebre just now, but that ignores a long term drive to correct this from the SNP, you ignore what has gone before in order to seize a stick, any stick, with which to strike the SNP
#155 by John Ruddy on June 3, 2011 - 5:33 pm
No there isnt. See #52. Why let facts get in the way?
#156 by Erchie on June 3, 2011 - 6:46 pm
Pardon me if I wait or a more considered legal opinion than a Random commentor on a blog.
I would have been politer to you, but your tone does not invite such civility
#157 by Scott on June 3, 2011 - 10:39 pm
“Pardon me if I wait or a more considered legal opinion than a Random commentor on a blog.”
Thanks for that endorsement. May I use it as a testimonial on my blog (
On the substantive issue see the comment from Am Firinn below mine which clarifies a point
#158 by Erchie on June 4, 2011 - 12:23 am
Scott
knock yourself out.
I have no animus against you, merely the witless and ill-mannered method of the poster who referred me to your post, though at the moment it refers me to a post by Indy.
Here’s one just for you
“Of all the learned and informed opinions out there, loveandgarbage is the one I always chose to stupidly ignore first!”
#159 by Scott on June 4, 2011 - 3:12 pm
I hope I didn’t cause any offence, my comment was intended as a joke although I see I managed to corrupt a smiley in the process.
I will happily take your line for my testimonials page, though 😉
(other examples here: http://loveandgarbage.wordpress.com/about/ should I use it above or below the comment “monomaniac fruitcake” or “horribly stupid”?)
#160 by David on June 3, 2011 - 10:23 am
We seem to forget that most other big states are struggling with their equivalent of Cadder too, all over the news in France this week:
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualite/societe/20110531.OBS4274/des-milliers-de-gardes-a-vue-pourraient-e…tre-annulees.html
Perhaps we should just set up a review into ECHR and UK Rights? Oh, hang on:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/press-releases/cbr/cbrnewsrelease130511a.htm
#161 by douglas clark on June 3, 2011 - 1:26 pm
David @ 108,
Ré your first link:
“La page n’existe pas…”
#162 by David on June 3, 2011 - 4:37 pm
Oops
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualite/societe/20110531.OBS4274/des-milliers-de-gardes-a-vue-pourraient-etre-annulees.html
#163 by James on June 3, 2011 - 4:46 pm
My French ain’t up to that.
#164 by Alex Buchan on June 3, 2011 - 5:03 pm
I would add one last question.
How does the approach taken by the SNP on the S.C.U.K. fit into their overall approach leading up to the referendum of reassuring voters on independence by stressing that it does not entail separation? Surely by upping the ante in the way they have done they have undermined this overall strategy by bringing it forcefully to the public’s attention that they want Scotland’s legal system to be completely separate.
Surely it would have been in their overall interests to have gone about this in a much more low key fashion, the better to demonstrate that the process of extricating Scotland from the UK is something that can be handled amicably, as in the former Czechoslovakia’s velvet divorce. Will this be seen as evidence that their sureness of touch has deserted them?
#165 by Don on June 3, 2011 - 7:34 pm
Many Scots take pride in our seperate legal system so highlighting that we have one is hardly a hurtful strategy.
On the other hand, Salmond wants Scots judiciary system to have equality with legal systems the length and breadth of Europe. So far, the onionists have said “No” and tried desperately to slap down Salmond and MacAskill for having the audacity to ask for such parity.
Ask yourself how that plays in the galleries. I don’t think Salmond’s strategy is backfiring at all. He can point to yet another issue where the Scottish government are being reasonable and the knee-jerk reaction of the onionists is to say “No”. How many is that now? And we’re barely a month after the election. We’ve got years of this.
Until the onionists realise how much damage they are doing, they will continue say “no” to what, on the surface, are reasonable requests. They can’t help themselves as it’s their default position. Phony B.Liar’s strategy re devolution failed and now the labour party (and the lib dums) can’t think of an alternative. I think Call-me-dave still hasn’t got to grips with Scotland, despite being in the job for over a year (he’s Thatcher’s child alright) .
No, I’d say Salmond is playing a blinder and has hardly put a foot wrong to date.
#166 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 6:53 pm
What really confuses me is why the Unionist parties are happy to have this disparity. Scots law is absolutely equal to English law, so there is no reason for English law to have such a straight line of access and for Scots law not to. Maybe the rest of Europe sees English law and equates it with ‘British law’. Who knows? If a legal system is a unit, then English law is a unit, Scots law is a unit and French law is a unit. There is no reason whatsoever that one of those units should not have the same ability to organise appeals as the others.
The Unionist parties (Especially the Tories who are normally quite good when it comes to protecting Scots law and have actually changed their opinion on this in the last decade or so) should have no qualms with this at all.
#167 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:58 pm
Apparently there isnt a disparity in access. In both jurisdictions you can appeal for leave to the Supreme Court, even if it is refused by a lower court. The Supreme Court may choose not to give you leave to appeal, but thats a different matter.
#168 by Allan on June 5, 2011 - 10:39 pm
Ummm.
I’m not really sure why you think that Salmond has played a blinder. To carry on the sporting annalogy, i think he has gone studds up into a badly judged tackle. Most Scots know that they have a seperate legal system. However what this episode has highlighted is the problems within the Scottish Legal system with applying human rights to criminal procedures, not that there hasn’t been warnings that have been ignored/hushed up (I mentioned the case of Mr Megrahi, i am sure there are others).
It has also shown Salmond (and in particular MacAskill) in a not entirely flattering light in terms of ensuring that the criminal justice system is completely fair. In short it’s an open goal that only Iain Gray, Gouldie et all could miss.
#169 by David on June 3, 2011 - 5:36 pm
“Quelles peuvent être les conséquences judiciaires d’une telle décision ?
– Toutes les personnes qui ont connues des gardes à vue sans la présence possible d’un avocat, vont pouvoir plaider la nullité des procès-verbaux d’audition, mais à condition que les affaires n’aient pas été jugées. Celles-ci peuvent êtres fortes anciennes et donc des milliers de procédures pourraient être concernées.”
Roughly:
What could be the judicial consequences of this decision?
All people held in police custody without the possible presence of a lawyer could call for the nullifying of the hearing….
#170 by The Burd on June 3, 2011 - 7:38 pm
Dear God is this comment thread still running? What can possibly need to be said that hasn’t already been in one of the previous 138 comments?
And if you lot think I’m sitting here moderating ding dong back and forth on a beautiful sunny Friday evening, catch yourselves on.
Away and enjoy the sunshine!!
#171 by Allan on June 5, 2011 - 10:40 pm
I was, having been away camping in Kames…
#172 by Colin on June 4, 2011 - 4:15 am
Type your comment here
Well it is a Labour government who created this problem forty years ago. Before the introduction of detention following the Thompson Review a suspect did have access to a lawyer.
#173 by John Ruddy on June 5, 2011 - 10:40 pm
And that was wrong. I’m quite happy to say when Labour gets things wrong.
#174 by Scott on June 4, 2011 - 3:20 pm
Among the debate here there is a dog that didn’t bark that should be thrown into the mix. The European Court of Human Rights publishes details of cases coming before it. Other nations can intervene. Salduz was well-trailed. The later cases well-trailed. I am curious why the Scottish government at the time of the Salduz hearing (the last minority government) or those cases immediately after that did not seek an intervention from the UK government in the Salduz or later cases, to explain the possible impact on the Scottish system? if the Scottish government and the Lord Advocate were so keen to ensure the protection of the integrity of Scots criminal law that would have been a small step to take. Or was the eye off the ball there? Or do they really not care?
#175 by Tony on June 4, 2011 - 9:22 pm
Interesting caveat Scott, it would not be the first time that the UK govt. has ignored Scotland, the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 springs to mind. Would the Scottish government or the lord Advocate be privy to this information in the first place independently, would they even sift through what would be a ECHR heavy case load routinely anyway?
I’m not so sure that they would sit in pre-judgement of so many cases routinely, but you are right the ramifications have been severe to our legal integrity. Not to mention legal aid.
#176 by Scott on June 5, 2011 - 8:19 pm
I would have thought the Scottish government would have had someone in the legal service employed to trawl Euro Court of Human Rights cases to identify those of potential relevance to Scotland. Perhaps someone should ask why Salduz was missed by both UK and Scottish governments (and I would hold the Scottish government as culpable as the UK given that the relevant issues fell foursquare within a devolved area, and the Scottish Government has a substantially bigger legal team than that of the Advocate General and Scotland Office).