Commentators across the political spectrum have been lined up to criticise the way in which the anti-sectarianism bill was being rushed through Holyrood. Â Even the SNP’s new chair of Holyrood’s Justice Committee, Christine Grahame, expressed her reservations about the speed and lack of scrutiny with which the bill was likely to progress through the Scottish Parliament. Â But it perhaps took until Celtic and Rangers themselves urged a delay that the Scottish Government took on board their concerns and decided to slow down the legislation.
While this bill is – perhaps – an exceptional case, and the speed with which it was to move forward aimed to allow it to be in place prior to the start of the Scottish football season, there is a wider point to make regarding the scrutiny of bills in the Scottish Parliament. Â And that point is – do they get the scrutiny they need? Â Let’s put this in context.
At Westminster, the route for a bill to become a law is quite lengthy. Â Starting with the House of Commons, it has a first (introduction) and second (debate) reading, followed by a committee stage (line by line consideration), a report stage (debate, amendments) and then a third reading (and vote on approval). Â Then, the same process is repeated in the House of Lords. Â Then, if there are amendments at that stage, the bill is returned to the House of Commons for approval before being sent for Royal Assent.
At Holyrood, the bill is introduced at Stage one and assigned to a committee which will take evidence from experts. Â The Committee will then report before the Stage one debate for agreement on general principles of the bill. Â Stage two sees the bill undergo line by line scrutiny in committee, where amendments may be added. Â It is then returned to the full chamber for the stage three debate (again, with potential for amendments) and vote, after which point, if it is accepted, the bill will be sent for Royal Assent.
Spot the difference?
Westminster spends twice as long legislating as Holyrood does, since the process has to be repeated in the House of Lords (or the House of Commons for bills that originate in the upper house). Â That’s to be expected. Â But its easy to see why – they have the ability to do that. Â Holyrood is a unicameral parliament with the committees primed to take on the role of scrutiny that a second chamber does elsewhere. Â At least that was the intention in the Scotland Act.
The problem is – and it is underlined by the issues arising from the Anti-Sectarianism bill – that they don’t have the time to fully scrutinise legislation prior to its acceptance. Â Indeed, this isn’t a new problem – legislation has been passed by previous Scottish Executives which could use some review because of things missed or particular interpretations which hadn’t been recognised at the time they were passed.
But time is just one consideration. Â Experience is another. Â While I’m very happy that some (many) of our MSPs have no background in law (it means that they aren’t all lawyers) they have such disparate backgrounds that many wouldn’t know the parliamentary procedure a bill goes through in order to become a law. Â Perhaps that is overstating my case somewhat, but I think you get the point – we’ve elected parliamentarians from multiple different backgrounds with different experiences (and that’s a GOOD THING) but what we gain in the richness of representation we perhaps lose in legal knowledge. Â And when it comes to legislation – and specifically, scrutiny of legislation – this may well be a problem.
So if that’s really a problem, that what is the solution? Â It was put to me that any politician who puts their head above the parapet and calls for fifty more politicians in Scotland might not be a politician for much longer… but it is certainly something that we should give some thought to. Â Perhaps not as an elected second chamber (you’d end up with issues of who represents whom, how it was elected etc etc) but as individuals appointed according to their position. Â For example, maybe the Scottish Government’s Law Officers, some of Scotland’s Law Lords (I assume someone like Jim Wallace would fall into this category?), the leader of say the six largest Scottish Councils and perhaps some of our senior judges might be the types of people we’d look for to do a job of scrutiny on legislation.
Its only an idea – and, I imagine, most of the democrats on here will rage about the idea of appointed officials making laws. Â Except that they wouldn’t be making the laws, simply scrutinising and suggesting room for improvements – the actual law-making would still be done by politicians.
By all means dispute my outcome – but consider the problem as well. Â Do you think we need more scrutiny of legislation? Â Or are you happy that the legislation we get from Holyrood is as good as it could be?
By the way, I’m not writing this because we have an SNP majority – as I mentioned above, this system was wrong before the SNP entered majority government. Â I’m just trying to think of ways we can make better laws in Scotland – and that’s surely something the SNP, and their activists, want too.
#1 by Alec Macph on June 24, 2011 - 10:23 am
So they know only a wee bit about politics as well?
As for solutions, some form of upper chamber is the best solultion I can see. Definitely not elected, with just another bunch of hacks on the make. What about Hope of Craighead?
[…]
I’ll get my coat.
~alec
#2 by Geraint on June 24, 2011 - 10:25 am
Appointed officials are already in a good position to comment on bills in the early stages.
One of the problems now is that it is hard for anyone to scrutinise and track bills unless they are paid to do so; few people have time to read and comment on draft legislation that will change.
I would prefer to see the final text agreed by parliament published and then some delay introduced to allow everyone to raise concerns with MSPs before they ratify the text and send it for Royal Assent. Additionally, sunset clauses should be built into all legislation by default to encourage critical review by MSPs.
#3 by Don on June 24, 2011 - 11:17 am
I think most of us can agree this legislation, as it was, wasn’t very good and Cunningham’s performance before the justice committee didn’t help much. So it’s all good that the so-called neo-fascist party has listened to critics and allowed more time for scrutiny. No doubt many, even here, will now claim that shows weakness (damned if you do, damned if you don’t) but I believe it shows a certain maturity that I wish more of our MPs/MSPs would display.
At the moment, there is little need for the creation of a second tier of legislator for Holyrood as one de facto tier effectively exists already. It’s ironic that you mention Lord Wallace without remembering his Frankenstien’s baby of a creation, the Supreme Court. The SC can strike down any legislation it feels is beyond the competence of Holyrood, something no court in the land can do for legislation passed in Westminster.
#4 by Scott on June 24, 2011 - 3:09 pm
I agree about the issue regarding scrutiny in Holyrood (and made this point in a comment in another post on here a while ago – http://www.betternation.org/2010/12/unicameralism-rules-ok/ )
The comments here though by Don need some clarification. First, the existence of the Supreme Court has nothing to do with Lord Wallace. The Supreme Court was set up by the Labour government and inherited 2 jurisdictions in Scots law: (a) the jurisdiction of the House of Lords as the final court of appeal in civil cases (which has been in existence in Scots law since 1711); and (b) the jurisdiction of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council (in existence in relation to legislative competence disputes and human rights queries regarding the actions of the devolved goverments) since the establishment of devolved legislatures in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland in 1999. The latter jurisdiction effectively served as a constitutional court on the UK’s supranational obligations (under EU law and the European Convention on Human Rights) as well as determining the scope of the powers of the devolved governments and legislatures. That jurisdiction was envisaged within the devolved legislation to cover civil and criminal cases (in relation to each system) and in Scotland the power to consider criminal cases was confirmed following appeals from the Crown to the Privy Council to deal with issues where they felt the High Court of Justiciary got it wrong (of course, both aspects of this have been forgotten in the hysterical arguments from the First Minister in recent weeks as he claimed this was never contemplated when the Scotland Act went through Westminster, to which one can reply “if it wasn’t contemplated why was a power of appeal and reference from the High Court of Justiciary put into the Scotland Act?” anyhow, back to the point). The power (under criminal or civil cases) to strike down legislation under the Scotland Act is not solely held by the Supreme Court. An application to the Court of Session (using judicial review procedures) could strike down legislation. A single Outer House judge could reach such a decision (but as yet has not). The prospect of a court applying a written constitutional settlement to strike down legislation is not unfamiliar around the world. Indeed, I had (perhaps erroneously) believed that the late Sir Neil MacCormick had been involved in the preparation of a draft written constitution for Scotland (for the SNP) which would if implemented effectively have empowered courts to do just that.
As for Don’s suggestion that courts cannot strike down Westminster legislation that’s simply untrue. Secondary legislation (statutory instruments) can be struck down if the primary legislation is not complied with, or procedures are not followed. the courts have been happy to strike down such legislation for years. And primary legislation can also be struck down. The Merchant Shipping Act 1988 was struck down by the House of Lords in 1991 following the Factortame litigation. The 1988 Act was contrary to European Union law (which is supreme in issues in which the EU has competence) and any domestic legislation contrary to EU law can be struck down. And while it is true that the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights does not allow a court to strike down legislation under the Human Rights Act 1998 (instead only allowing a court to issue a declaration of incompatiblity) the Supreme Court judges have indicated in recent years that it would be possible to strike down Westminster legislation on grounds of extreme irrationality. One of the issues in the recent AXA v Lord Advocate case was whether common law grounds of judicial review could be used in relation to the legislation of the devolved assemblies, or is the limited power applicable to Westminster legislation generally applicable.
#5 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 11:14 pm
The courts can if legislation is incompatible with EU law or ECHR?
#6 by CassiusClaymore on June 24, 2011 - 11:44 am
More scrutiny is not needed. What’s needed is the scrapping of this pointless proposal, and the proper enforcement of the existing law on breach of the peace. It is more than adequate to cover all the sectarian behaviour so embarrassingly highlighted last season.
Of course, we could always try not imposing a sectarian education system on our children, whereby they are separated at age 4 based on the religion of their parents….I’m not sure why John Lamont got shot down for saying that. The parties running scared of the churches, I suppose.
Disclosure – I’m an atheist and as such have no dog in the fight.
CC
#7 by GMcM on June 24, 2011 - 1:23 pm
Maybe he was shot down because anyone who uses the phrase ‘sectarian education system’ or ‘educational apartheid’ obviously has no clue on the issue.
Tell me, at what point during your education at primary/secondary school did one of your teachers sit you down for a lesson and teach you how to hate a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim/Hindu etc.? Are you unable to strike a friendship with people of other religions because of the school you attended?
Lets be honest here; when people talk about a ‘sectarian education system’ the solution to this ‘problem’ is always to close Catholic schools therefore Catholic schools must be the ‘problem’. That is a prejudiced point of view and shows the level of intolerance which exists within our society – Catholics need to hide what they are in public so as not to offend non-Catholics. Closing Catholic schools will not increase tolerance and understanding between Catholic and Protestant communities; how can it when children would be encouraged to keep their faith to themselves?
#8 by Indy on June 24, 2011 - 2:00 pm
The reason people get annoyed by those kinds of comments is because Catholics are much more likely to be the victims of sectarian crimes. Catholics are six times more likely to be victims than Protestants – and if you consider that there are many more people in Scotland who are at least nominally Protestant than Catholic then it is ckear that what we call sectarianism is in most cases anti-Catholic or anti-Irish bigotry.And It doesn’t matter if you are a believer or not.- if you have an identifiably Irish Catholic name you will be identified as an Irish Catholic whether or not you are one. That’s the way it works.
So when the situation is one where it is Catholics who are predominantly the victims you’ve got to understand that it is quite offensive to suggest that they effectively bring it on themselves by the fact that there are Catholic schools.
You know there are Catholic schools in England, there are Catholic schools all across Europe. They don’t “cause” sectarianism there – and they don’t cause it here.
There is an argument of course for saying that we should have a completely secular school system. That’s an argument I have a lot of sympathy for. However it should be made on the basis of the advantages that a secular system would deliver. It should never, in my view, be made on the bases that abolishing Catholic schools – and only Catholic schools – will lessen attacks on Catholics.
#9 by Malc on June 25, 2011 - 11:21 am
My thinking has only been brought to the fore by the speed with which this legislation has been prepared and brought forward. And I do think more scrutiny of legislation is required – but that doesn’t necessitate another chamber. Just slow down the process a bit, or maybe have more MSPs on committees (or more MSPs in general) to scrutinise.
The education thing is a different thing entirely.
#10 by Catherine on June 24, 2011 - 12:56 pm
There was an idea floated a few years ago (I think by a Tory peer but not sure) that Scottish members of the House of Lords should come to Scotland perhaps once a month to discuss laws being passed in the Scottish Parliament in order to give them that extra level of scrutiny. The idea being that if they saw problems with legislation it could be returned to the Scottish Parliament for further discussion.
I think it was quickly shot down at the time, and can’t imagine the SNP being in any way in favour of it, but I thought it was an interesting idea. Most Scottish members of the Lords are former elected members and have a good grasp on Scottish affairs. It would also provide an extra level of experience and scrutiny, which may be missing from the Scottish Parliament.
#11 by Scott on June 24, 2011 - 3:09 pm
I think it was David Steel who suggested it
#12 by IanH on June 24, 2011 - 1:24 pm
As far as I know most of the smaller members of the EU have unicameral parliaments. We should remember that the Westminster model isn’t the only way to do things. A second chamber where the government of the day simply appoints members until they have a majority isn’t much of a second chamber.
#13 by Malc on June 25, 2011 - 11:22 am
True, but then, I a bicameral model isn’t necessarily what I was suggesting. Do you agree that we need some form of further scrutiny? If so, how do we do it better with the unicameral model that we currently have?
#14 by IanH on June 25, 2011 - 4:51 pm
Now you’ve got me, I will have to go and read up on what other countries use. Sadly it depends on having representatives who are serious about the job. I doubt if any system can work effectively if a significant proportion of MSPs or MPs simply cheer anything put forward by their party, because that’s good for their career. Or oppose everything because it was put forward by another party.
#15 by Observer on June 24, 2011 - 8:33 pm
I am not personally sure that more legislation is actually necessary. What is ncessary is a policy to enforce the law – I think we may have enough of them as it is.
Excellent post from Scott.
#16 by Alec Macph on June 24, 2011 - 9:13 pm
Eventually. But, separate, said epithet was unguarded… although I say this as someone who has read extensively on fascism and other totalitarian systems; and can tell the difference between a fascist and a national socialist, or just a political thug.
I wouldn’t, oh I don’t know, describe Westminster as a “colonial” institution or babble about American “Imperialism”.
Personally, I would have turned around in the chamber and said “waaa, waaa. Wa-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a! Baby want a dummy!”. Bullies in general taunt their victims so, when a lash-out occurs, they can feign innocence and present themselves as victims.
~alec
#17 by JPJ2 on June 24, 2011 - 11:03 pm
Catherine’s idea would be unacceptable as there are no SNP members of the House of Lords.
This is by self-denying ordinance until at least some of the HoL is elected-which should have happened a long time ago if ex-Labour MPs and now MSPs had not come to regard a place there as an entitlement in their old age.
#18 by Malc on June 25, 2011 - 11:24 am
Right, but what about combining it with my idea of adding some Council Leaders etc? There’s surely be some Nat presence there? Equally, we’re not really looking for partisans for this role, just people who will examine the legislation from a legal perspective, see if it is workable etc…
#19 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 11:28 pm
Good suggestion, Malc, but I think you’re maybe overemphasising the legal aspect of things.
Of course, more legal knowledge makes for better legislation – and all those lawyers in the House of Lords clearly help in that regard – but perhaps more generally the requirement should be for more knowledge and experience from whatever aspect of society the proposed legislaton relates to, eg business, social work, economics, fisheries, or whatever. And again the HoL helps in that regard, since whatever the demerits of the appointments system the members will at least have had a few years experience in their chosen field before being appointed, even if it’s just as a career politician(!)
Of course, in both Holyrood and Westminster there are all sorts of ways in which specialist and non-political expertise and knowledge can influence the legislative process, but it does seem that in that respect Edinburgh’s procedures seem slightly deficient as compared to London’s.
And rectifying this could well represent at least one postive for an independent Scotland, although I’m not sure if the SNP have a position on this.
#20 by Malc on June 25, 2011 - 11:25 am
Good point Stuart. But I would suggest that knowledge of the law and how legislation would affect it would be a strength!
#21 by Stuart Winton on June 25, 2011 - 9:54 pm
Indeed, Malc, but I suppose my point was about getting the mix right, although I didn’t perhaps put it quite like that.
What I was trying to say perhaps is that while it would be great if all those involved had both legal and other specialist knowledge, in reality the best that can be hoped for is that a mixture of people can bring the requisite skills rather than each person posessing the right mix.
#22 by Alec Macph on June 25, 2011 - 11:19 am
Do they not also have separate elections for the leader of the executive as for constituency members?
As for the suggestion of Scottish peers ‘returning’ to discuss bills, the immediate problem I can see is that they haven’t been appointed by figures in Holyrood; and almost certainly haven’t been appointed for services to Scottish affairs.
~alec
#23 by Steve on June 25, 2011 - 7:37 pm
Hello, in my opinion the problem with the sub standard quality of scrutiny is the lack of resources available to the Parliament relative to the Executive (Scottish Government). I think that actually there is a lot of good scrutiny done on most policy issues and legislation by the various interested groups, such as businesses, statutory bodies, charities etc.
But the MSPs, supported by the committee clerks, parliament solicitors, spice people and their own researchers are ill equipped to digest all the views, understand then and develop them into policy or legislative changes.
The Scottish Government on the other hand has an army of civil servants handling policy, research, statistics, consultation and engagement, legislation and other legal matters.
For example, one parliament committee (eg health) can deal with a range of different policies and legislation, and is pretty much run by only a few clerks. One part of the SG covering the same range of issues could easily be staffed by literally hundreds of civil servants.
So I think a straightforward transfer of funds and people from the executive to the Parliament would make an enormous difference to the quality and depth of scrutiny, even if no other changes were made.
#24 by James on June 25, 2011 - 7:40 pm
That’s an excellent idea. Not sure how popular it would be, mind.
But you’re right. The (brilliant) clerk to both Patrick’s and Alison’s Committees is… covering two Committees! He’ll do both very well indeed but I worry for the workload.
#25 by Angus McLellan on June 25, 2011 - 9:19 pm
How does the proportion of civil servants advising the government and opposition compare between Holyrood and Westminster? How about “short money”? Or the resources of the Commons Library and SPICe? I’d also like to know how Ireland proposes to live without the Seanad.
Rather than assuming there’s a problem and guessing how to fix it, how about the showing that there is a problem, ideally complete with examples?