For all that the constitution is one of David Cameron’s top priorities, it is odd that not many Conservative MPs seem overly willing to discuss it. Even John Redwood’s blog post this morning takes a distinctly, not to mention disappointingly, non-opinionated view of the matter. John is really just raising a few points up the flagpole to see in which way commenters salute them and, to be fair, a very decent debate followed in the 90+ comments.
So, in the absence of much else exercising my blogging brain these days, I thought I’d also take up the challenge:
1. Should the people of the rest of the UK have any say in the independence of Scotland?
Definitely not. This argument has flummoxed me for quite some time as it is often raised by otherwise sensible people. If England wishes to be independent from the UK, then it is for England to decide. It is the same for Wales, Northern Ireland and, yes, Scotland. Of course negotiations will have an impact on the rest of the UK and, had there been a need for two referendums (as Michael Moore recently suggested and I, more recently, backed him on), then the whole of the UK could arguably have a referendum on the matter but if, as seems very likely, the referendum comes down to a straight Yes/No before detailed negotiations begin, then it is a matter for Scots only to decide.
2. Should there be any financial consequences from Scotland gaining more independence to make her own decisions within the Union settlement?
Against the waves of vagueness that the good ship Independence battles through with each week that rolls on by, this one really is up and over the sides. What exactly the question is getting at we can but wonder.
I suspect there would be financial consequences to Scotland gaining more independence within the Union but, to second-guess what John is getting at, one would hope they wouldn’t be unnecessarily punitive. One does have to wonder if Scotland becoming more independent has subtle detriments. When Lord Green, the UK’s first Trade Minister, is touting for business across the globe on the country’s behalf, he may well have Gillingham in mind ahead of Glasgow, Aberystwyth ahead of Aberdeen and Southampton ahead of Selkirk. It is understandable that those working under the auspices of the Westminster Government don’t even have Scotland in the back of their mind when it comes to British concerns that, under our constitution, should still be fairly considered in a UK context as a whole.
So to answer John’s question, although there probably will be financial consequences for Scotland pulling away on its own, over and above Calman or fiscal autonomy, there shouldn’t be.
3. Should Scotland have more powers to raise her own taxation?
Absolutely. A Parliament that does not have powers to raise its own taxation will inevitably run into problems in terms of democratic accountability and responsible spending. For a long time I had regarded the Scottish Parliament as just another block of Westminster spending, like the NHS, Defra, welfare or what have you. However, I have slowly, too slowly, realised that this is inapplicable and the Scottish Parliament really is a special case when it comes to raising its own budget. There may end up being elected health chiefs, police chiefs and even headmasters in England and Wales before too long but there is still no direct comparison to be made to the Scottish Parliament.
The expense and investment that goes into the NHS, Defra, welfare etc are as a direct result of decisions and policies taken by a Government that has been democratically voted into place. Holyrood spending is dictated by a different party (or parties) to those that were voted into place in Scotland and this leads to problems as we are seeing now where Westminster policy is university fees and Holyrood policy is free tuition, Westminster policy is increased private sector involvement in the NHS and Holyrood policy is to keep health public. That divergence when spending limits are so inextricably linked between the Parliaments is an ultimately unworkable situation.
If a Conservative Government wants to end the supposed ‘grudge and grievance’ politics, then it needs to sever the link between right-of-centre Westminster decisions and left-of-centre Holyrood spending constraints. Indeed, this would end the regular ‘grudge and grievance’ that heads north, the supposed charge that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK. Let’s put it to the test if both sides of the border feel that strongly about it.
4. Do you support the Union or do you think it is time for break-up as the SNP suggest?
Well, I’m shimmying onto the fence here. I’ll make sure I’m in Scotland for the vote and I am currently minded to vote Yes but, as has been pointed out on this blog before (predominantly by James), the lack of detail and blatant gamesmanship surrounding the SNP’s primary proposal may push me back into a No space as there may ultimately be too much to risk by going for it alone, as fun and as fulfilling an adventure it would be.
So that’s my fourpence worth. I guess these four questions could form some sort of meme, not that I’m going to pick anyone out but feel free to answer John’s questions in the comments (or on your blogs). Maybe I should tag Mr Redwood MP himself since (1) he never answered his own questions and (2) he’s significantly closer to the decision-making than any of us here…!
#1 by douglas clark on June 21, 2011 - 11:12 pm
Memetically,
1. Agree with you
2. Agree with you
3. Agree with you
4. What! The gamesmanship has been entirely on the unionist side. They are completely unable to make a case. Please keep up!
#2 by Welshguy on June 21, 2011 - 11:18 pm
Aberystwyth ahead of Aberdeen? Please tell me you only included that because of the names… Westminster probably give less of a toss about Aberystwyth than any other part of Great Britain, it being bang in the middle of the only non-NI constituency that’s a marginal between two parties neither of which are the Conservatives or Labour.
#3 by mav on June 21, 2011 - 11:27 pm
well, ok. I’ll have a go.
1. Not at first glance. Its up to a nation do determine, etc….however….. If say, there was a yes vote in scotland, then we would then enter a period of limbo, of negotiation. And its quite right and proper that the english may be asked if they approve of the deal – especially if the deal involved splitting the debt, or the right of the scots to continue using sterling, for example. They’d have the right to ratify the deal, if you see what I mean. Though in practice it could lead to a deadlock.
2. Financial consequences. There would be, its in evitable, costs in setting up a new country. Is that what he’s talking about. i’ve not read his post, I willl, as your post doesn’t make it clear.
3. Any parliament needs to have a link to the pockets of those who elects it. A variable link, and that goes for councils too. The difficulty, and that goes particularly for oddities like the scottish parliament, where devolution is unilateral, is deciding what taxes. And I’m talking devolution here. The first step, for me, is the calman commission which widens the scope of tax varying powers. I’d cheerfully look at duty taxes also, not to mention stamp duty. However there is another step, never mentiioned, which is required to balance this out. I’d give identical powers to wales, n.ireland and the london assembly. I’d encourage other regions to do the same. Blair destabilised the constitutional set-up of the UK, both with devolution and the HoL reforms, and long-term, unionists like myself need to re-balance the structure. I appreciate there will be a lot of cyber-nats along, with their claims that indepenence would bring stability and they’ll be wrong. But they also won’t appreciate that I, like the majority of Scots who disagree with them, am entitled to my own view, my own hopes and to fear what they long for.
4. See above. Born and raised as both a Scot and British, with an English mother, I’ve seen the nasty side of nationalism first hand. I’ve been assaulted in the cowgate for wearing a white t-shirt when england was playing. I cross the border and see similar people with similar ambitions and hopes, a shared history and language. They are the same as me, as us. The world is getting smaller, more tightly bound. Boundaries are coming down, so why should we put another one up?
#4 by Dr William Reynolds on June 22, 2011 - 6:20 am
Leaving the UK or breaking up Britain is not what the SNP is proposing.As I understand it the Union of the Crowns (UK) will remain unless future voters decide otherwise.We already have a separate Scottish Parliament.What is being proposed is that it should be equal to any other parliament within the British Isles.At the present time,the Scottish Parliament is subservient to the London parliament and has insufficient powers.Essentially the SNP has always supported an Anglo-Scottish collaboration provided that the parliaments of both countries are equal.The SNP has also promoted internationalism,the idea that we should collaborate on areas of mutual interest with other nationsSimilar to the SNP position is the excellent collaboration between Finland,Sweden and Russia.Finland(prior to independence in 1917) was formally ruled by both countries for around 500 years.Thus the SNP position is not about separation,but about ending separation from the international community,and improving Anglo-Scottish relations.Non of this is adequately explained in the main stream media.
Regarding the comment by MAV,I find her experience of being abused,sad.Unfortunately,I see this type of behaviour as being widespread across many countries.However,this has nothing to do with whether you are independent or not,although the BBC attempts to marginalize the concept of the Scottish nation,probably frustrates people.Does not excuse abusive behavior of course and the SNP discourages it.The SNP concept of civic nationalism views anyone living in Scotland,irrespective of ethnicity or where they came from as being Scots if they wish to be,and certainly welcome.In that respect it is important to notice that SNP voters and members are drawn from English people and ethnic majority groups such as Asians.If you like,they are the new Scots,who share a common belief that independence is about taking responsibility and having the freedom to make choices.It is not viewed as an opportunity to discriminate against others ,to invade other countries,to harm others,or to believe we are better than others.
Regarding the settlement.I disagree with Jeff that two referendums are necessary.Let the people vote and let the politicians sort out the detail.
#5 by John Ruddy on June 22, 2011 - 7:17 pm
“Does not excuse abusive behavior of course and the SNP discourages it.”
No, the SNP does not discourage it. The SNP denies it happens. Anyone who says it does is accusing of “doing down Scotland” or “accusing Scottish people of being racist” etc.
Anti-english comments from SNP ministers dont help the situation either.
#6 by Indy on June 22, 2011 - 9:27 am
I think what question 2 is getting at is the Barnett Formula. What he is saying is if Scotland becomes more autonomous – not independent – within the UK should the Barnett Formula be scrapped.
And that actuallyb relates to your answer to question 4.
Let’simagine things work out as you suggest is possible – people vote no to independence and settle for some version of Calman with limited tax raising powers and some limited economic powers within the Unon then there’s nothing to stop Westminster scrapping the Barnett Formula – yet Scotland would still not have the full economic powers to compete with the south east.
I think he may just be gently reminding us of that fact lol.
#7 by Indy on June 22, 2011 - 9:29 am
PS: Not that I would suggest that his comments are any type of gamemanship of course!
#8 by ReasonableNat on June 22, 2011 - 11:41 am
1. Should the people of the rest of the UK have any say in the independence of Scotland?
No.
2. Should there be any financial consequences from Scotland gaining more independence to make her own decisions within the Union settlement?
Yes, the consequence should be full fiscal responsibility – the reward should be full fiscal autonomy. There would also have to be consequences for the union though, since under full fiscal responsibility Holyrood would have to pay Westminster to supply, for example, our defence, we could not allow Westminster alone to decide how much that yearly payment should be.
3. Should Scotland have more powers to raise her own taxation?
Scotland should pay her way in the world – if we are currently being subsidised that needs to stop, even if it means spending less. (Of course, the more reliably figures tend to suggest that this will not be an issue.)
4. Do you support the Union or do you think it is time for break-up as the SNP suggest?
Whatever happens, if independence is chosen we need to ensure that we create solutions around it that protect the aspects of the union that are worth keeping; if staying in is our choice then we need to find solutions that allow us to achieve some of the advantages that independence might have delivered.
#9 by Dean MacKinnon-Thomson on June 22, 2011 - 1:09 pm
“3. Should Scotland have more powers to raise her own taxation?”
I have long argued that we need full fiscal autonomy for Scotland. The real question isn’t ‘should Scotland have powers to raise her own taxation’ (as fiscal autonomy is rapidly becoming inevitable as much as desirable); the real question is ‘should British oil revenues be handed over to Holyrood or retained at London’?
#10 by James on June 22, 2011 - 2:29 pm
Ha! Another outing for the 1970s view on oil, that it can fund Scotland despite output being in terminal decline since 1999. Time to wake up and smell the wind farms.
#11 by John Ruddy on June 22, 2011 - 7:13 pm
And at the same time its propping up the welfare state and NHS and free uni tuition in Scotland, its being set aside to provide a sovereign wealth fund like Norway’s.
The oil money can only be used once!
#12 by ReasonableNat on June 22, 2011 - 2:38 pm
Fiscal autonomy isn’t autonomy if it doesn’t include ALL taxes.
#13 by Indy on June 22, 2011 - 3:20 pm
Luckily enough there is already a legal boundary between the Scottish sector of the UK Continental Shelf and the rest.
So that is one thing we won’t have to argue about!
#14 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 22, 2011 - 1:51 pm
Well said reasonableNat
#15 by ReasonableNat on June 22, 2011 - 4:46 pm
Just got a chance to read some of the comments on that blog – absolutely staggering!
#16 by Random Lurking Scotsman on June 22, 2011 - 6:12 pm
The words “John” and “Redwood” make me that little bit more likely to vote for independence.
#17 by Dean MacKinnon-Thomson on June 22, 2011 - 9:08 pm
Now the debate is rocking!
I have to agree with reasonablenat that fiscal autonomy would surely imply oil revenues controlled by Scotland. And this is surely logical?
And no, I ain’t some 1970s Nat reincarnation, I’m actually a Scottish Tory. I just care about putting Scotland first, within the Union … it would make a novel change after all!!
#18 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 23, 2011 - 2:14 pm
We need to agree to disagree John Ruddy.I have ben an SNP member since 1974 and most definitaly it is a party that does not discriminate against anyone.