The first part of Stuart‘s lengthy tome had over 200 comments… which suggests there is an appetite for the second part… so here it is:
The first part of this post concluded by proffering another explanation for the sovereignty paradox (meaning in essence the desire to withdraw from the United Kingdom but then cede significant economic and legal powers to the European Union and ECHR) namely that the SNP’s raison d’être is less about independence per se than incompatible political ideologies as between Scotland and the rest of the UK, and as compared to England in particular. Earlier I asked what the difference was between last year’s Labour Scottish triumph at Westminster and this year’s SNP landslide in the Holyrood poll. Of course, apart from the parliament in question the most obvious response is the rightwards lurch in the context of UK politics as a whole.
Thus in a recent blog post (albeit of sufficient newsworthiness to be the subject of a Scotsman news article) SNP policy and strategy guru Stephen Noon suggests “there is a harshness to the UK government’s approach that goes against the grain of Scottish society”, compares Alex Salmond’s “Fair Society” with David Cameron’s “Big Society”, and concludes:
“This is a tale of two countries, of two very different visions of society and of the future. It reflects contrasting priorities. And that, ultimately, is what Home Rule – devolution and independence – is all about.”
Thus it’s not so much about independence, sovereignty and ‘forging our destiny’ than in effect gerrymandering the UK to afford primacy to Scotland’s dominant progressive, left-of-centre political philosophy, undiluted by being part of the UK. Therefore independence is less about nationalism and an end in itself than about conflicting ideologies.
Which would, of course, solve the sovereignty paradox, most obviously as regards the EU and the euro, with their supposed communitarian and progressive ethos (assuming a currency can be thus characterised!). And presumably the EU’s obvious shortcomings are ignored in favour of a rose-tinted perspective on the whole European project, in contrast to Westminster’s semi-detached relationship with the EU. Whereas the reality is arguably that in some respects the latter is even less attractive than the former as regards Scotland’s posited political zeitgeist. (To a lesser extent this kind of false dichotomy might also apply to the Holyrood/Westminster comparison).
For example, in many ways the EU is wedded to a fundamentalist market perspective, with free movement of workers within the area being one obvious facet of this ethos. Of course, this can be detrimental to the wages and conditions of indigenous workers and even drive them out of work, but the dominant Scottish mindset prefers to portray the situation in terms of things like cultural diversity, whereas the latter idealism in England seems to have given way to the less rosy former perspective, with the difference north and south of the border arguably being due merely to the differing scales of immigration rather than fundamentally different levels of tolerance and suchlike.
But solving the sovereignty paradox in terms of fundamental political differences – real or imagined – may seem like stating the obvious, so is there any mileage in viewing independence for Scotland as a principle in itself, an intrinsic good, or is it merely the means to an alternative ideological end?
Thus would those who are pro-independence but distinctly progressive/neo-socialist in political outlook be so keen on Scotland going it alone if that more obviously entailed a distinctly right-leaning political environment? By the same token, would a left-of-centre future in the UK generally make the continuation of the Union a more attractive proposition, particularly if an independent Scotland seemed likely to steer a political course to the right of this?
Of course, it’s self-evident that many supporters of the SNP – and, to an extent, independence – have come to the party after becoming disillusioned with new Labour – and, also to a degree, Unionism – thus a thesis of ideology trumping sovereignty is perhaps trying to over-elaborate on something self-evident and unremarkable.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people to the right-of-centre on the political spectrum who are pro-independence but are presumably resigned to the fact that a more sovereign Scotland would mean a political environment at odds with their own ideological stance, and indeed perhaps even more unpalatable than it is now. Hence their support for independence is presumably based on grounds other than humdrum political preferences.
Of course, solving the sovereignty conundrum in terms of political philosophy is only one aspect of looking at the problem. One related – but distinctly less attractive – way of looking at the same situation is in terms of Anglophobes on the one hand and Europhiles on the other.
And the ideological perspective itself reduces a complex and often contradictory dynamic to a simple scenario of left v right, or Westminster v Holyrood & Brussels in terms of institutions. But the stink over the Supreme Court itself reveals a pro-independence split between the more obvious rights-oriented psyche which supports the court’s intervention on the human rights convention’s right to a fair trial, as opposed to the undercurrent of a more illiberal stance from Mr Salmond and Mr MacAskill.
This is perhaps neatly encapsulated in a Scotsman article by Nationalist historian Michael Fry, who arguably displays little appreciation of the impact of ECHR jurisprudence on Scots law irrespective of the Supreme Court aspect – and instead highlights the dangers of British/English law to Scottish legal independence – but who in any case seems to demonstrates a distinctly anti-rights ethos:
“Till a year or two ago, there were no appeals in criminal proceedings beyond the High Court in Edinburgh. Today there is the possibility of or even the invitation to one for cases somehow involving human rights, and such an appeal will go to the Supreme Court in London. So a back door has been left ajar that could be hard to push to: there may be many cases in which clever and unscrupulous Scots defence lawyers will look for, indeed delight in finding, some aspect of human rights. The vaunted independence of the Scottish judiciary could in this area face the fatal risk of absorption into a British system of justice. And here, as in other areas, British may mean in reality English.”
By the same token, it may also be the case that the first minister and justice secretary are more concerned about the reputation of Scotland’s justice system than justice per se, thus their reaction to the Fraser and Cadder cases are perhaps less about the Supreme Court and the procedural and sovereignty aspects than how its decisions are perceived to reflect badly on the efficacy of an independent Scottish nation. Hence this all may represent a continuation of the misgivings regarding the Lockerbie bomber’s conviction, with al-Megrahi’s release on compassionate grounds reflecting more positively on the SNP’s desired perception of Scotland than the can of worms that an inquiry into the whole affair could represent, as dissenting Nationalist voices demonstrate.
Thus while the progressive Holyrood/Europe v illiberal Westminster analysis of necessity simplifies many competing interests and philosophies, from a personal perspective I would hazard that if born in 1994 rather than 1964 then I might find the idea of the SNP and Scottish independence significantly more attractive than is currently the case. However, experience (and all that!) has resulted in cynicism and disillusionment with idealistic/left wing politics, hence a scepticism regarding the independence project. Thus clearly a ‘fluid’ approach to sovereignty more related to personal philosophy than nationalistic principle and questions regarding precisely where political power should reside: Edinburgh, London, Brussels; who cares, as long as it’s good government.
Of course, I’m sure historians and political theorists can cite numerous examples of nationalist movements arising from or given impetus by ideological considerations. But when Stephen Noon chained himself to the Stone of Destiny back in 1992, perhaps he should have tattooed Labour’s clause IV on his forehead instead, or at least the contemporary equivalent encompassing the SNP’s vision of a “fair society”.
#1 by Don on June 22, 2011 - 7:03 pm
“have come to the party after becoming disillusioned with new Labour”
I don’t think disillusioned is quite the word to use. The third reading of the Scotland Bill last night gave New Labour MPs a chance to show they are still relevant, still stand up for Scotland. Instead, even in the knowledge that parliamentary time for debate had been severely curtailed (so much for that respect agenda, Dave – again!), they spend almost their entire time attacking the SNP rather than trying to get the best deal for Scotland. The sight of Labour MPs cheering on the tories and lib dums must have set hearts soaring at LabourHame where similar comments have been moderated out of existence. At this rate, it’s New Labour that’ll be voted out of existence. And the least said about Davidson’s disgraceful Neo-fascist comments (along with the eunoch like behaviour of the Speaker), the better.
Labour need to realise that they must get over their pathological hatred of the nationalists because it’s interfering with their ability to be effective politicians for Scotland. Every amendment proposed by the SNP was voted down last night, Labour doing the job of the tories. It didn’t matter whether the amendment was good, bad, indifferent, it was proposed by a nat so had to be voted against.
The nats now have a perfect excuse to kill this bill when it goes in front of Hollyrood. The unionists chose to block all and every amendment.
The debate last night was a farce, another example where ideology (of the labour party) trumped – or at least is attempting to – the sovereignty of the Scottish people.
#2 by John Ruddy on June 22, 2011 - 7:20 pm
Did you not understand the context in which the comment was made? The fact that he was being shouted down by SNP members while making his speech (regardles of what they thought of its content) was appaling. He was bound to react. No doubt the SNP were trying to get such a reaction. They must be laughing that they got such a good one (from their anti-labour, anti-London point of view).
#3 by Allan on June 22, 2011 - 7:25 pm
Still doesn’t give him the right to behave like a (*deleted for decency* – Ed).
Time for Mr Davidson to find a library to find out what REAL facism was… and them to make a suitable apology.
#4 by John Ruddy on June 22, 2011 - 9:58 pm
No, he was an idiot to say what he said. But how often have you heard or seen nationalists shout down their opponents when they say something they dont like? Seems to be a common tactic, both online and offline.
#5 by Richard Thomson on June 23, 2011 - 12:01 pm
John – there are discourteous eejits in all parties and of none. Please don’t attempt to excuse the unacceptable by perpetuating the falsehood that it’s only some nationalists who behave an unacceptable manner when confronted with an idea they don’t like.
#6 by Allan on June 23, 2011 - 7:00 pm
Yellow card accepted…
#7 by Angus McLellan on June 22, 2011 - 7:50 pm
It doesn’t quite rise to the dramatic heights of a storm in a teacup, but it is not without its funny side. If Davidson can’t tolerate being barracked by the massed phalanx of SNP MPs – all half a dozen of them – how does he survive being laughed at from the government benches? And what on earth is going on between his ears? Is his self-image still stuck in 1968, a teenage Wolfie Smith Fighting the Power? Sad really.
And my inner cynic tells me that the SNP only asked for a apology to make sure Davidson would keep his job.
#8 by Jeff on June 22, 2011 - 8:06 pm
The SNP called for more than an apology, they want the full resignation so that can put that particular conspiracy theory to bed Angus 😉
I don’t see this one going away and I don’t see how Labour can realistically keep Ian as chairman of the Commons Scottish affairs select committee when he has betrayed such a biased view of the Governing party of Scotland no less.
But hey, going off-topic very quickly here. I’ve not even read Stuart’s post yet which I shall forthwith!
#9 by John Ruddy on June 22, 2011 - 9:57 pm
Bear in mind the rules of the chamber.I’ve read elsewhere about the Speaker seeming to be reluctant to criticise Davidson – the other point is he should have dealt with the barracking from the SNP.
As for the massed ranks of the SNP – they were sitting around him – its a bit easier dealing with someone shouting at you from across the chamber.
#10 by Don on June 22, 2011 - 9:35 pm
I take it you’ve never watched FMQs (or any other SNP minister stand up to make a statement) at Holyrood. I take it, then, you fully agree that all those Labour MSPs are Neo-fascists too?
#11 by Don on June 22, 2011 - 9:46 pm
Remember John Ruddy, Ian Davidson is the MP who shouted out “who cares” whilst Angus Robertson, the SNP leader at Westminster, was asking Margaret Beckett about matters relating to the Joint Ministerial Committee on Europe. Doesn’t this make him a neo-fascist too by his own definition?
#12 by Indy on June 23, 2011 - 9:55 am
Are you suggesting that the SNP invented heckling? Or that anybody who heckles is a neo-fascist? Did you ever watch FMQs at any point over the past four years? Were we to take the baying mob of Labour MSPs trying to howl down everything that Alex Salmond said as an indication of their fascist leanings?
get a grip. Iain Davidson simply lost it for a moment – that happens from time to time but why on earth are you defending him?
#13 by Allan on June 22, 2011 - 7:22 pm
Good post again Stuart. Two points.
Firstly, I suspect that a lot of the SNP supporters kind of buy into the New Labour/Third way agenda without recognising or being aware of the fact that they have done so. For example the amount of pro-Independence comentators that are happy to defend cuts in Corporation tax and at the same time express confidence in continued investment in public services, hence the dichotomy of left & right wing policies being pursued by the SNP Government. I think it was Indy that may have said something about the barriers between left and right wing politics being broken down, paraphrasing something that both Bill Clinton & Tony Blair have both said (this “Third Way” being the foundation stone to both Clinton’s premiership and the New Labour years under Blair AND Brown). As a result, I think that the left/right arguments would not discomfort SNP supporters as much as Labour supporters.
Secondly, if the justice secretary & the First Minister were concerned about the effectiveness of Scottish Criminal Law/Scot’s Law, they surely would have campaigned on a reforming ticket at the election in May. It’s not as if any of the cases mentioned in your post have come out of the blue, these have been rumbling along. Indeed they must also have been aware of the severe problems with the Megrahi conviction (apart from the fact that three Scottish judges somehow believed two witneses who had been in the pay of the American authorities), specifically the ones pertaining to the technicalities of Scottish law. Fraser’s case in particular is a strange case, considering that he has been convicted of murder without the prescence of a body.
There is an argument that this is some sort of unionist conspiricy, that sooner or later a legal challenge to the legitimacy of any referendum will come through the Supreme Court – this is apparently why Salmond has got his retaliation in first. Yet you can’t help but think that really the way that Scot’s Law has failed to evolve under two terms of Labour/Lib Dem government and a term of SNP minority government, that the Supreme Court/Human Rights rullings have been coming.
#14 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 12:38 am
Thanks, Allan. Indeed you’re bang on about the SNP echoing New Labour’s third way to a greater or lesser extent, but the left-of-centre ethos seems to be the dominant one, and if there are fundamental ideological contradictions within the party then clearly they’re set aside for the sake of the independence goal, as of course was the case with New Labour in their quest to get their hands back on the levers of power.
But I think the SNP’s attempts to be all things to all men (and women!) will one day be its undoing – as again with New Labour – but this may happen much further down the independence road, so those who see greater autonomy as an end in itself might not be particularly bothered!
And the theory about the UKSC and the referendum question is an interesting one. Of course, there are anomalies in the UKSC process that have been rightly highlighted in the last couple of weeks, but ultimately if there’s a problem with the substantive law then it’s the ECHR that’s the problem, not the UKSC per se.
And somone somewhere – Peter Jones in the Scotsman? – suggested that the Scottish courts could deem the SNP’s referendum legally deficient in some way, in which case Alex might have to appeal to the Supreme Court – oh the irony!!
#15 by Indy on June 23, 2011 - 11:24 am
Most SNP members – and probably supporters – buy into the notion that there is a world outside the UK. We do not have to spend eternity wedded to the UK political system and to the UK concept of left and right. There indeed alternatives which are part of the European mainstream. They may all equate as “New Labour” to you but I’m afraid that’s just a wee touch of narrow-minded nationalism there.
#16 by Allan on June 23, 2011 - 7:14 pm
“They may all equate as “New Labour†to you but I’m afraid that’s just a wee touch of narrow-minded nationalism there.” –
In what way is mentioning the Third Way/New Labour as being in the same vein as SNP’s current left/right straddling administration “narrow-minded nationalism”? May I remind you that “The Third Way” was a direct influence on “New Labour” (Blair & Brown were frequent visitors to Washington DC in the Winter/Spring of 1993). Sorry, but the current SNP government are a successful scottish adaptation of both “The Third Way” and “New Labour” (Hmmm, i feel a blog coming on…)
The concept of left wing and right wing politics is not exclusively a Westminster concept. Unless you mean that Scotland’s political spectum will be much more influenced by other European countries – which are all – like Scotland – of a more left wing persuasion (which begs the question – why do they let the bankers run the EU?).
#17 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 12:10 am
When Indy says “We do not have to spend an eternity wedded to the UK political system and to the UK concept of left and right”, it sounds like they think the SNP will manage to reinvent the political wheel!!
#18 by Indy on June 24, 2011 - 12:32 pm
What I am suggesting is that you interpret Scottish politics and the various political and ideological positions which people take entirely in terms of a traditional UK-based left/right axis.
If you take a broader view across Europe there is a distinct social democratic approach taken by the Nordic countries which combines economic competitveness with a universal apprpach to tax-funded public services.
This is only seen as straddling a left-right axis by a UK model which is in itself completely outdated.
#19 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 9:49 pm
Indeed no two nations are the same ideologically, and the left/right dichotomy simplifies the whole thing, and the post took due cognisance of that, but in any case it’s just common sense that that left/right and all that are just generalisations.
Again it’s just a question of degree and nuance, and even in the UK context no party or goverment can be crudely characterised in simple left/right terms, which again we all know but such terms must be used to simplify the debate.
And indeed some countries may manage to straddle the left-right axis better than others, but that hardly renders the left-right analysis useless either.
And the social democratic approach is hardly unique to the Nordic countries either.
Of course as Allan says the Blairite/Clintonesque ‘third way’ was also an attempt to combine a more liberal approach to market economics with social justice, although it clearly hasn’t been as successful and stable as in the kind of countries you aspire to.
#20 by Allan on June 25, 2011 - 1:56 am
“What I am suggesting is that you interpret Scottish politics and the various political and ideological positions which people take entirely in terms of a traditional UK-based left/right axis.”
There is nothing traditionaly UK based about a left/right axis. People all over the planet talk abot left wing and right wing politics. Even the Argentinian World Cup winning manager Cesare Mennotti described his team as playing “left wing football” and also talked of “Right wing football” (most often when talking about his successor – also a World Cup Winiing coach – Carlos Bilardo). It just so happens that the UK (as well as the USA) are several steps to the right from the European concensus (though Tory commentators thought that both Merkel and Sarkosy would be their countries equivilants to Thatcher in the same way that Gerhard Schroder was clearly the German version of Tony Blair).
#21 by ReasonableNat on June 22, 2011 - 7:38 pm
Unionists often make the mistake of regarding the constitution as just another issue, generally low down on a list of priorities. They fail to realise that it is an ‘horizontal’ issue, potentially affecting every other. This post fails to realise that a desire for independence isn’t driven by this or that alone, but by a complex mix of interrelating conclusions. The difference in politics north and south of the border is really only one of very many reasons that independence, or even just greater autonomy, might better serve Scotland.
#22 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 12:40 am
Good point, but I thought the post did indeed acknowledge the complexity of the, um, dynanic.
#23 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 22, 2011 - 8:04 pm
First John Ruddy.Labour do plenty of shouting down political opponents and rudely interrupting SNP politicians during TV intervies.It is part of politics I suppose.Davidson lost the plot.The SNP believe in a form of civic nationalism that is inclusive and accepts everyone.His reference to neo-facists is insulting to the near million people who voted recently for the SNP,and those from all sections of our society who believe that independence,taking responsibility for the affairs of your nation,while being international,is normal.
My last sentence in the above paragraph refelects my frustration with the argument being pushed by the writer of this article.Independence is most certainly about sovereignty taking responsibility for the affairs of your nation,and seeking collaboration with other nations on matters of mutual importance.The style in this article would be esoteric to many and is based on opinion,which is very different from many others.The attempt to attach the notion of independence to political ideology is a false notion.Of course political leanings influence how people vote but I think the author should acknowledge,that irrespective of political leanings,all people in most countries support independence.
#24 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 12:45 am
Again Bill I thought the article acknowledged the various different factors in play, and that, for example, some would support independence irrespective of what it might lead to in political terms, while others would only support it if they thought it might lead to something more ideologically compatible with their own politics.
Indeed, your last sentence states that “all people in most countries support independence”, thus in some countries they don’t. Care to name them? ;0)
#25 by Jeff on June 22, 2011 - 8:22 pm
Great post Stuart, there’s so much in there that I not only have to read it a few times before tentatively commenting but there’s numerous issues I could choose to remark upon as the article is so darn rich.
I’ve gone for this quote: “Thus it’s not so much about independence, sovereignty and ‘forging our destiny’ than in effect gerrymandering the UK to afford primacy to Scotland’s dominant progressive, left-of-centre political philosophy, undiluted by being part of the UK. Therefore independence is less about nationalism and an end in itself than about conflicting ideologies.”
In my mind I don’t really disassociate the two. An ideological preference for independence can only realistically be put into place by “gerrymandering” one’s nation away from the country it happens to find itself in.
A belief in independence is only relevant when compared to nearby countries, competing ideologies and a decision over where to place oneself on that left-right spectrum.
Is Scotland moving towards independence because it wants to stay more left than right-of-centre England or because there’s a burning desire for a forging of our destiny? I really don’t see how it can’t be both.
(PS Really liked your points about Scotland escaping a right-of-centre UK and moving into an arguably righter-of-centre EU!)
#26 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 1:08 am
Thanks for the kind remarks, Jeff; high praise indeed!
I agree to an extent that independence can be about both autonomy per se and day-to-day political ideology, but this surely differs from person to person and indeed each individual will place different weight on each of the two.
Thus some – presumably a minority – won’t be that bothered about the humdrum politics and view Scotland as a ‘nation’ that to that extent should also be a state, while others will only be attracted to independence as a way to get away from New Labour and the prospect of perhaps a term or two of Tory-dominated rule. And of course many will be influenced by both factors to differing degrees.
Thus the dominant ethos will be an average of all these individual perspectives, and the point I was trying to make – if perhaps not articularing clearly enough – was that autonomy per se has become less dominant in the SNP and ideology is now to the fore, with the former being the means to the end of the latter rather than an end in itself.
Indeed, as an individulal I’ve perhaps gone the other way – from less emphasis on the Scottish ‘nation’ and more on a dislike of the kind of ideology espoused by the SNP – but for the Scottish electorate as a whole the opposite seems to be the case.
Or perhaps that’s slightly inaccurate unless the Holyrood results are considered an endorsement of independence rather than due to more humdrum political considerations.
#27 by JPJ2 on June 22, 2011 - 8:38 pm
#2 John Ruddy
I saw Ian Davidson live and heard little barracking from the SNP UNTIL Davidson made and REPEATED his neo-facist slur,
Don’t defend the indefensible, it just weakens your position.
#28 by John Ruddy on June 22, 2011 - 10:53 pm
Not what I heard – and as I made clear I’m not defending him. Just saying the SNP were clearly after getting a reaction from him, and he fell into that.
#29 by Don on June 23, 2011 - 12:29 am
Then why query whether we understood the context? Are you claiming that, in the right context, he would be well justified in calling a fellow MP neo-fascist?
Or do you accept that your knee jerk reaction was to defend Davidson against the nats, a reaction you now feel you should regret but don’t really, as is evident with your continual postings attempting to excuse him?
#30 by John Ruddy on June 23, 2011 - 10:12 pm
I havnt attempted to excuse him – but thanks for putting words in my mouth. I’ve always been quite clear that he was wrong to say what he said. What I did say is that its clear he was goaded into such a reaction, and he should have known better. Its a common tactic from nationalists.
By the way, my knee jerk reaction was to think he was an idiot.
#31 by Brian on June 22, 2011 - 10:04 pm
The defense of Ian Davidson is lamentable but not unexpected. However, the entire post, I find to be somewhat insulting. It disregards the seriousness of wanting to be masters in our house and tries to limit it to a right-left idealogical fight.
#32 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 12:48 am
No Brian, it doesn’t limit it to anything of the kind.
And even if it did, to state that it’s ‘insulting’ as a consequence seems to represent the use of language that’s a bit excessive, thus your criticism of Ian Davidson seems a bit ironic ;0)
#33 by JPJ2 on June 23, 2011 - 12:29 am
#15 John Ruddy.
It is to your credit that you are not defending what Davidson said. However I do NOT accept that he was provoked as you insist.
I quote below what the BBC’s Brian Taylor has to say:
“For myself, I do not believe that all that many people would characterise the exchanges as unwarranted heckling. Robust debate, perhaps, but that is very far from unknown in the Commons.”
#34 by John Ruddy on June 23, 2011 - 10:20 pm
Thats Brian’s interpretation of things. Its not mine.
He was interrupted three times in the 60 seconds before his outburst, and we dont quite catch what was being said to him (because they were being said from a seated position away from the microphones).
Since this outburst is somewhat out of character for Ian, what else do you ascribe his outburst to? Perhaps the hatred for the SNP just became too much for him? Maybe he was saying what was official policy of Labour? Or one of the other outlandish conspiracy theories from Newsnet Scotland?
Or maybe he said something rashly in the heat of the moment after getting fed up with the constant heckling from the SNP? I have to say I know how he feels.
#35 by douglas clark on June 23, 2011 - 1:01 am
Interesting article from Stuart Winton. It is always useful to see what counter arguments can be presented to an (any?) independence movement. The first paragraph sets up an imaginary paradox where none exists, viz:
This makes an assumption that is completely unjustified, namely, that post independence nations are precluded forevermore from entering, or remaining in, treaties or international alliances. It would be the sovereign right of the Scottish people to decide whether they wished to retain membership of the European Union – at some future date. That is not what the referendum is about. The referendum is about re-establishing the sovereign right to determine our future, ourselves.
I suspect that Stuart and I will continue to have a conversation which, whilst based ostensibly on a single subject – independence – will bring two completely different and incommunicable philosophies to the table.
_________________________________
What might be of interest to try to reconcile this is to look at least ten years after (what 2016?). If there were to be a ‘yes’ vote whither Scotland? Or a ‘no’ vote.
If we, neo-fascists one and all, voted for independence and then obeyed the ‘Winton Rules’, Scotland would be completely isolated.
We’d be as well living on the dark side of the Moon. We’ll have no trade, no academic interaction, no cultural interchange, no greater vision of ourselves than whatever happens within our own borders. Because that is the pig in a poke that Stuart is selling you.
On the other hand, if we voted to remain in the UK – good little communards and vote fodder for the rich and useless fifty pretendy socialists – what can we expect? Well, we can expect to be ignored. Because we would indeed be vote fodder forevermore.
That is why it is a false dichotomy. Civic nationalists – who are not neo-fascists by the way – do not subscribe to either vision of the future. Stuarts agenda setting is frankly along the lines of ‘have you stopped beating your wife yet?’, designed to damn your answer whatever you say.
Told you we wouldn’t agree!
#36 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 1:25 am
Douglas, the first part of your response is basically a rehash of the points we were making ad nauseum on the ‘part one’ thread.
For example, if a self-employed person decided to give up and work as an employee for a larger business then you could still argue that they’re sovereign, but to suggest that to that extent they’re still independent is surely stretching things a bit?
And I’m not sure what you mean by suggesting a situation of an independent Scotland subject to ‘Winton rules’.
My point isn’t necessarily that EU or eurozone membership is a bad thing, it’s merely that to that extent Scotland could hardly be considered independent.
To an degree the SNP’s vision would represent coming out of the UK pooled sovereignty frying pan and into the EU/euro/ECHR pooled sovereignty fire, yet dominant SNP thinking seems to have an innate antipathy towards the former and the opposite approach to the latter!!
#37 by Angus McLellan on June 23, 2011 - 3:13 am
Well, yes, plainly one could say that being a part of a self-styled unitary state, where Crown in Parliament is sovereign and some part of that sovereignty is shared with international organizations is to a degree the same as being an independent state sharing some of its sovereignty. After all, you’ve done so several times. But it would generally be thought wrong to do so as these two things would not be seen as similar. It isn’t a matter of degree, it is a matter of being two very different states of affairs.
#38 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 5:37 pm
And again, historically Scotland has come to be part of the UK – and I’m certainly not suggesting that the genesis of that was in any way democratic in modern terms – by a fundamentally different route than if an independent Scottish state was part of the EU.
But both the Scotland/UK and Scotland/EU scenarios do or would represent a scenario underpinned by the democratic consent of the Scottish people, albeit expressed in different ways.
And of course the extent of the powers shared, the number of nations pooling sovereignty and the democratic mechanisms under which that occurs would differ between the two scenarios, but as regards the fundamentals of sovereignty and independence I can’t really see much difference.
#39 by Dr William Reynolds on June 23, 2011 - 7:40 am
I haven’t made a list of countries where the majority of people don’t support independence since I don’t have these data readily available.the question buries my point,which was independence is the norm in this world and that more and more countries are becoming independent.Scotland has not yet regained its independence but recent surveys of public opinion indicate that those supporting the status quo are a minority.Since I am currently sitting in a summer house in my wife’s country(Finland) where internet connection is slow,my ability to do more research is hampered.
Stuart has associated support for independence with votes for the SNP.The argument being that SNP voters have all kinds of different motives.Of course but that applies to all political parties.It is also the case that:
1) A certain percent of voters for unionist parties support independence.
2) That support for independence spans all ideologies
3) Some SNP voters who do not want independence now,never will,or could be persuaded.
4) That while some are more persuaded by economics,others (like me) believe that independence is a natural and highly desirable state of being.
5) The only way in which support for independence,more fiscal powers or status quo can be estimated, is to hold a referendum.
Of course,referendums,like all surveys of public opinion are shifting sands over time.The outcome will be determined by whether there is a level playing field,and whether people can be given accurate information.I guess the mainstream media in the UK would not want that.A referendum on independence could be won but it will be difficult in view of the fact that the public have been provided with misleading information for decades.Whether greater social mobility and access to alternative forms of information will soften the impact of a biased media,who knows? I hope so.The 2007 and 2011 Scottish elections do encourage me,but I would never underestimate the deviousness of the UK state.
The issue about the EU is interesting.Long ago (I think it was during the Heath government) ,I voted no in a referendum on EU membership.My rationale was :”No voice,no membership”.The slogan went something like that at the time.It was based on the argument that since Scottish MP’s were heavily outnumbered at Westminster,and could only influence policy when English MP’s voted the same way.The English population is much larger so they get to elect more politicians.My logic was that since Scotland was often powerless within the UK to prevent things detrimental to its population,EU membership would make the nation,even more invisible.
I am basically (as an internationalist) in favour of EU membership for an independent Scotland,but do have concerns about the way that the EU is developing.I may change my attitude towards membership.Stuart alluded to that when he suggested that Scotland had more influence within the UK.I disagree with him but he raises an important concern.That is,countries with greater population have more votes,and dominate the agenda.Shades of Scotland’s fate within the UK.
I understand the point about increased collaboration among nations changing what independence means.However,achieving the degree of independence within Europe that my wife’s country of Finland has,would be a great step forward from the virtually powerless situation of Scotland today.Of course Winnie Ewing(my former MEP) achieved wonders,but that cannot compare with the influence that an independent nation has.
#40 by Stuart Winton on June 23, 2011 - 5:47 pm
Bill, your concerns about an independent Scotland’s influence in the EU outlined in your penultimate paragraph seem to contradict your final paragraph, in particular: “Of course Winnie Ewing(my former MEP) achieved wonders,but that cannot compare with the influence that an independent nation has.”
And look what Finland’s independence and EU membership has done to your internet connection ;0)
#41 by douglas clark on June 23, 2011 - 10:49 pm
Stuart,
It is one of the ‘Winton Rules’ that no independent nation can enter into a communal alliance. Or at the least, Scotland cannot. It is not a criteria that has applied to any other nation that has found it’s independence. But you want to pretend that sovereignty has to rest as it does, and that any concept of communal sovereignty is somehow an abrogation of it.
Doesn’t wash. Neither does the status quo where a complete lack of sovereignty is argued by unionists to reflect our rightful place on this planet. We can only express our views if ‘big brother’ agrees.
This is the way you have framed the debate. I, for one, am not willing to accept that you have the right to do that.
That is the ‘Winton Rule’.
It would, according to you, be a betrayal of all that is good and pure and right for an independent Scotland to even countenance the fact that we live in a real world with a United Nations and numerous other bodies we might find common cause with.
You do realise that I am not a neo-fascist? I quite like living in the real world and I’d have thought that went for 99% of SNP supporters.
I would sign up to numerous international treaties almost as soon as we became independent. I might even agree to be part of the Commonwealth.
#42 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 12:07 am
Douglas, you almost make it sound like I’m objecting to the thought of Scotland entering into a ‘communal alliance’. That’s not the case; all I’m saying is that by ceding sovereignty Scotland would be *less* independent, and indeed some would argue that membership of an organisation with the remit of the EU would mean that Scotland wouldn’t be independent at all by any realistic assessment, as indeed many Scottish nationalists agree.
And again you compare Scotland in the EU as representing ‘communal sovereignty’ with Scotland in the UK as amounting to ‘no sovereignty at all’, which to me is a completely false dichotomy, as I tried to outline about 24 hours ago.
#43 by Angus McLellan on June 24, 2011 - 11:29 am
To me, your “false dichotomy” appears very real given the constitutional positions adopted by the UK state. Perhaps you could explain why you believe “no sovereignty at all” to be incorrect?
#44 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 9:30 pm
Well it all comes back to the notion of democratic consent as regards where sovereignty resides. If the SNP thinks the Scottish people don’t consent to the current EU/Westminster/Holyrood settlement then they should hold a referendum.
But of course they (the SNP) know they (the people of Scotland) do consent to it, hence no referendum until that changes, either because the electorate do want something fundamentally different or because the SNP proffer something fundamentally different from independence, the latter of course already being the case, it’s just a question of degree and delineation.
#45 by Angus McLellan on June 24, 2011 - 11:48 pm
I’m not aware of any proposal to ask the people of Scotland, or the peoples of the UK, how sovereignty should be apportioned within the UK, nor has any poll of which I am aware asked this question. This is a completely different matter from asking whether Scotland should be independent.
Opinion polling is at best suggestive of public sentiment. Answers to questions which are not of immediate concern – how people thought they might vote in an AV referendum which was six months away or in an independence referendum whose date is not known – seem to me to be of limited informational value.
Having said that, there seems to be no obvious basis for your assertion that there is “democratic consent” to the current state of affairs. The teaser SES figures show clear support for change although the nature of that change is unclear. Nor does there seem to be any better grounds for your claim in the results of recent elections. The answer to a question which has not been asked cannot be inferred from the answers to quite unrelated questions.
#46 by Stuart Winton on June 25, 2011 - 10:16 am
Angus, as I said in the last thread, democracy isn’t perfect and, for example, we can’t have elections and plebicites every other day because if not then people can claim that there’s no democratic mandate or consent for a particular issue.
But as well as opinion polls regarding Scottish independence there was a decisive majority for the Unionist/Calman parties in last year’s Westminster poll, and indeed the SNP have never returned more than 11 MPs to London.
And even though even Alex Salmond self-evidently doesn’t view last month’s Holyrood poll as a vote for independence, mainstream Unionist opinion regards it as at least sufficient mandate for holding a referendum on the issue, so what’s the problem, precisely, apart from the SNP delaying the poll?
And, for example, many EU countries have no formal mandate for joining, so does that mean the whole thing lacks democratic legitimacy?
Or in the UK we haven’t been formally consulted on the numerous treaties accruing significantly more powers to Brussels since the 1975 referendum so to that extent we should be pulling out?
Of course, perhaps the obvious answer is that UKIP have never formed a government, thus to that extent there’s a mandate of sorts for continued membership.
Thus it’s far from perfect, but fundamentally I can’t see what’s wrong with the noton of the current Scotland/UK settlement having democratic consent.
If there is a mandate for change then we should know about that soon enough, but it needs Alex Salmond to get on with it.
#47 by Scottish republic on June 24, 2011 - 8:00 am
“”””””SNP’s raison d’être is less about independence per se than incompatible political ideologies as between Scotland and the rest of the UK, and as compared to England in particular. “””””””””””
The raison d’être is entirely about independence and the clearly incompatible ideologies between Scotland and England.
We want an independent sovereign nation state and a fair one at that.
#48 by Stuart Winton on June 24, 2011 - 9:32 pm
So if the supposed independent sovereign state wasn’t fair then you wouldn’t support independence?
That’s the crux of the argument.
It’s not so much about autonomy per se than ideology.
#49 by Indy on June 24, 2011 - 9:36 am
Basically a lot of this seems to be an argument about whether a country can be independent and be in the EU. Maybe you should take that up with UKIP or Jim Fairlie’s Free Scotland Party.
It may be an interesting issue from a political analysts point of view but it’s not actually mainstream politics. As far as I am aware almost 100 per cent of MSPs favour continued membership of the EU – not sure about Margo’s position but certainly all of the parties represented do. That is not to say people have an uncritical view of the EU but on the whole the consensus is that it is better to be in than out and that the EU has delivered more good than bad.
So that is where we are and where we will remain for the foreseeable future. It’s a constant in other words. Of all the things that will change with independence the powers that the EU has in Scotland will not change and neither will the acceptance of those powers unless a party which is opposed to the EU manages to make a political breakthrough.
#50 by Stuart Winton on June 25, 2011 - 7:19 am
“Basically a lot of this seems to be an argument about whether a country can be independent and be in the EU. Maybe you should take that up with UKIP or Jim Fairlie’s Free Scotland Party.”
Well we all know what their answer would be, as I mentioned in the first part.
“It may be an interesting issue from a political analysts point of view but it’s not actually mainstream politics. As far as I am aware almost 100 per cent of MSPs favour continued membership of the EU – not sure about Margo’s position but certainly all of the parties represented do.”
Which has what to do with the issue of whether Scotland could be truly independent in Europe?
“Of all the things that will change with independence the powers that the EU has in Scotland will not change and neither will the acceptance of those powers unless a party which is opposed to the EU manages to make a political breakthrough.”
Ditto Scotland’s current relationship with the UK.
#51 by Allan on June 25, 2011 - 12:37 pm
“As far as I am aware almost 100 per cent of MSPs favour continued membership of the EU – not sure about Margo’s position but certainly all of the parties represented do. That is not to say people have an uncritical view of the EU but on the whole the consensus is that it is better to be in than out and that the EU has delivered more good than bad.”
Is that the concensus within the political classes, or is that an attempt to judge that as being the… ah… “settled will of the Scottish people” to quote one of those horrible unionist polititians?
I don’t think that the SNP have seriously thought through any policy relating to the EU, they’ve only seen the plus points. Bear in mind that Ireland’s aggressive Corporation Tax policy (that Salmond would like to copy) was not approved by neither the EU or the ECB (who thought that it broke the rules agreed in the Maastricht Treaty). It could be argued that the punitive measures imposed on the Ireland bail-out are partly a punishment for Ireland going against the wishes of those bodies, and partly punishment for having the temerity to vote against the last EU treaty.
#52 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 24, 2011 - 11:02 am
Stuart,we need to agree to disagree.I understand your arguments and go along with them to some extent,but I make some different conclusions.However,interesting debate.
Frustrating not to be able to get into this discussion more fully.My poor internet connection has more to do with my old laptop and remote location than being in Finland.I am sure that Stuart knows that Finland is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world and is pulling my leg.Unfortunately I need to pull out of this debate since it is midsummer,a sacred time in Finland.The ladies are telling me that I should not spend it on the computer.I will read the comments later with great interest.
#53 by douglas clark on June 25, 2011 - 8:37 am
Stuart,
Last thought.
AFAIK, the EU hasn’t sited it’s nuclear deterrent within 50 odd miles of where I am sitting. It hasn’t entered any wars on our behalf.
On that basis, our continued existence, it appears to be more benign and less cynical than your status quo.
#54 by Stuart Winton on June 25, 2011 - 9:58 am
And you think either you or the world would be a safer place if Trident was located south of the border?