A two-part guest post from Stuart Winton of Planet Politics.  It was a lengthy post so we got him to split it in two, and we’ll post up the second part of it in a few days.
If nothing else then Scottish independence is surely about sovereignty. Thus the intention is to repatriate powers currently reserved to Westminster, such as the ability to raise taxes, to borrow when necessary to finance public spending and regarding macroeconomic policy more generally.
However, the recent debate about the definition and limits of ideas like devo-max, independence-lite and confedaralism demonstrates the difficulty with the concept of sovereignty; for example, in what looks like the SNP’s vision of an independent Scotland foreign affairs might remain partly at the UK level, while monetary policy would be decided either by the Bank of England or the European Central Bank, whereas the issue of national defence seems particularly vexed.
The currency issue seems especially difficult as regards the questions of independence and sovereignty. For some time the SNP seemed committed to the single European currency, but for obvious reasons the retention of sterling now seems to be the preferred option, in the medium-term at least. But that Alex Salmond could even contemplate an independent Scotland joining the euro – with interest rates decided in Frankfurt – underlines the paradoxical nature of so-called sovereignty, not to mention the notion of independence generally. If monetary policy decided in London primarily for economic conditions in the south-east of England is considered inappropriate – the original rationale for a Scottish currency – then surely interest rates decided primarily for France and Germany would be even less palatable for Scotland, as several of the smaller eurozone member states have found to their cost in the difficult economic climate of recent years.
By the same token, Mr Salmond’s recent objection to aspects of human rights law being decided by the Supreme Court in London – and thus a perceived threat to the independence of the Scottish legal system – seems somewhat ironic in view of the alternative, as outlined by a Scottish Government spokesman: “The issue is not human rights – it is that the distinct Scottish legal system should have direct access to the European Court in Strasbourg just like every other legal jurisdiction”.
The irony of the latter point seemed lost on one contributor to the Herald’s website, for example, who talked of “Unionist jackboots trampling Scottish Jurisprudence” and opined: “It is about the core foundation of the Scottish state and its senior judges being humiliated and deemed inferior by a London court”.
Slightly more recently – and less luridly – justice secretary Kenny MacAskill claimed the Supreme Court judges’ knowledge of Scots law was limited to what they might pick up on a trip to the Edinburgh Festival, while paradoxically stating: “We want Scotland to be able to deal directly with Strasbourg. At the present moment we cannot do that. What we want is to be in the same situation as other countries. We want to be a normal European country.” Similarly, in a subsequent Newsnicht interview the first minister seemed all over the place regarding judicial sovereignty, slamming the “aggressive” intervention by judges in “another country”, while extolling the virtues of the European court and highlighting the fact that the European Convention on Human Rights was authored by a Scot.
But of course we are represented in Europe as a constituent part of the UK, so to that extent Scotland is not a ‘normal’ European country, and there’s little to suggest that the Scottish people desire otherwise. Clearly all this could change with independence, but the SNP Government doesn’t want a referendum on the issue at present, thus to that extent Mr MacAskill should either bring it on (to coin a phrase!) or get on with using the currently devolved powers to run the country.
And it’s not as if Messrs Salmond and MacAskill’s obvious chagrin at the Supreme Court’s decision per se was likely to have been assuaged by having the issue decided by the European Court of Human Rights, which learned opinion seems to suggest would take a similarly liberal approach to interpreting the human rights convention, and it also seems unlikely that the latter court would be any better versed in Scots law than two of the Supreme Court’s justices, Lord Hope and Lord Rodger, who have held the posts of Lord Justice General of Scotland and Lord President of the Court of Session in Scotland. Moreover, the ECHR is labouring under a lengthy backlog of cases, thus neither procedurally nor in terms of substantive interpretation of the convention is there any obvious benefit to be had in relation to SNP distaste at the effective exoneration of Nat Fraser, except to the extent that judgement day might have been delayed for some years – and justice denied? – if access to the Supreme Court had been unavailable and hence awkward questions about the Scottish criminal justice system avoided.
But all this brings to mind the SNP’s desire for an ‘independent’ Scotland to join the European Union and thus have national sovereignty compromised by the full panoply of treaty obligations, regulations and directives which would take precedence over domestic legislation and case law, and that’s even ignoring the issues of eurozone membership and monetary policy.
And this EU law would ultimately be under the auspices of the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, a jurisdiction in addition to and completely separate from that of the European Convention on Human Rights and associated court in Strasbourg.
Thus in simple terms the dominant Nationalist mindset seems to say, ‘London bad: Frankfurt, Brussels and Strasbourg good’. Or a political and economic union of 60 million people bad, a political and economic union of 500 million people good. Hence something of a sovereignty paradox, but can all this be reconciled? Of course, many prominent supporters of independence have a problem with these contradictions, perhaps most neatly encapsulated in opposition to the SNP’s oxymoronic “Independence in Europe” mantra, albeit that it’s not heard so much these days. More specifically, Professor John Kay, a member of the SNP Government’s Council of Economic Advisers, said recently: “In the modern world, economic sovereignty for small nations is inescapably limited, and political sovereignty is largely symbolic.” Of course, as Professor Kay’s Scotland on Sunday article makes clear, the limits of economic sovereignty depend on which uncertain course an independent Scotland takes, while his point about political sovereignty perhaps over eggs the pudding a bit.
On the other hand, Gerry Hassan refers to a “post-nationalist politics, one of shared, fluid sovereignties”, which may have some merit in an increasingly complex and interdependent world, but there’s certainly nothing ‘fluid’ about ceding sovereignty to the EU and in terms of a single currency; these are long-term commitments fundamentally antithetical to national sovereignty – ‘European superstate’, anyone? Thus ‘fluid sovereignties’ seems more a euphemism for contradiction and confusion rather than any kind of compelling explanation.
Of course, another prominent attempt to square the sovereignty circle manifests itself in the claim that Scotland would be pooling sovereignty with the EU on a consensual basis, a course of action freely and democratically chosen by the people of Scotland rather than having it thrust upon us via Westminster and the UK.
Again this seems semi-plausible, but the argument portrays Scotland as some sort of repressed colony at the height of imperial Britain, not a twenty-first century participative democracy whose citizens – to repeat a point made earlier – have never demonstrated any obvious desire to secede from the UK, as the several-year delay in the independence referendum ably demonstrates; if the Scotland Bill and the various other powers requested by Alex Salmond are as imperative to Scotland’s future as claimed, then surely these should be sidelined and referendum-enabling legislation passed by the Scottish Parliament forthwith to hasten the repatriation of the full panoply of desired powers?
By the same token, May’s election was self-evidently about who should run a devolved Scotland – and in view of the claimed increasing sophistication of Scottish voters there’s no reason why the SNP shouldn’t become the ‘natural party of (Holyrood) government’ (and indeed perhaps plenty of reasons why the SNP should be the most obvious natural party of Holyrood government) – without it indicating an endorsement of independence. Moreover, Labour trounced the SNP in Scotland in the last major electoral test in the UK context, namely the general election which took place precisely one year before the Holyrood landslide; what changed between then and now, apart from the seat of parliament in question? (The other obvious difference is addressed later).
But another angle on the sovereignty issue is that an independent Scotland would take its place at the international diplomacy dinner table as a fully sovereign nation state (sic!) and therefore have its own say in world affairs and hence be able influence the geopolitical environment. Where, precisely? The G8? The G20? The G100-odd? Or perhaps joining (or displacing) the UK as a permanent member of the UN Security Council? Of course, the stock Nationalist answer is very probably that Scotland would rather not be part of the UK representation on the Security Council, thank you very much, but would Scotland have any more international influence as a separate entity than (indirectly) as a member of the UK?
However, it’s surely the case that Scotland would have less influence at the EU level (with near-30 member states) than it currently has as a constituent part of the UK, where indeed it’s often been claimed that Scotland has had influence disproportionate to its size; during the ‘new Labour’ years, for example.
Again, however, from the Nationalist perspective that’s the wrong kind of influence, and thus the second part of this post will suggest that Scottish independence is less about sovereignty per se than incompatible political ideologies.
#1 by Dubbieside on June 14, 2011 - 12:39 pm
Stuart, you wrote,
“However, it’s surely the case that Scotland would have less influence at the EU level (with near-30 member states) than it currently has as a constituent part of the UK, where indeed it’s often been claimed that Scotland has had influence disproportionate to its size; during the ‘new Labour’ years, for example”
A good start might be to explain just where Scotland has influence in the EU at present. What about fishing as an example, what is Scotlands influence there? If you are covering this in the second part apologies in advance.
#2 by James on June 14, 2011 - 1:22 pm
If I were in the fishing industry, I’d be very worried about SNP policy here. They are determined to ignore the science of conservation and try to eat all the remaining fish as soon as possible. The industry here would go the way of the Grand Banks if Lochhead had his way.
#3 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 3:55 pm
Indeed, fishing isn’t specifically addressed in the second part either, but would Scotland have any more influence in this regard at the EU level than it does regarding a matter currently decided at the UK level, like pensions and social security?
Of course, you could make a slightly nitpicking case that it would, but what’s so good about pooling sovereignty regarding fishing at EU level that’s bad about pooling sovereignty on pensions at the UK level?
Scotland certainly doesn’t/wouldn’t have it’s own way in either scenario.
#4 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 4:00 pm
The SNP is completely opposed to pooling sovereignty on fishing and to the Common Fisheries Policy which has been an unmitigated disaster as, far from protecting fishing stocks, it opened them up to industrial fishing boats from Spain and other countries – who were only able to access them because of the Common Fisheries Policy.
#5 by Allan on June 14, 2011 - 8:19 pm
So why are the SNP in favour of joining the European Union then Indy?
#6 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 9:46 am
The EU is about a lot more than the CFP. And the EU knows that the CFP has been a disaster. That’s why they are looking at ways to return fishing grounds to national mangement.
#7 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 5:41 pm
But until that thorny issue is resolved (no signs of it happening soon), an independent Scotland that was a member of the EU would continue to have no independent fisheries policy.
#8 by Indy on June 17, 2011 - 1:17 pm
But we would have the ability to negotiate by right on behalf of the Scottish industry.
#9 by John Ruddy on June 17, 2011 - 6:50 pm
And when you get outvoted (as the Uk often has been) what will you do then? Blame nasty Brussells in the same way you’ve blamed nasty London?
#10 by Dubbieside on June 14, 2011 - 4:14 pm
Stuart
I still do not know where Scotland has any influence in the EU at present. Third party nominal representation through another country does not in my book count as influence.
My perception is, rightly or wrongly that Scotland has zero influence at present. The fact that the country with the largest fish stocks in the EU sat outside fishing meetings and Luxembourg with none was at these meetings would appear to me to reinforce that perception.
Fishing would be the obvious example of lack of influence, but what about financial, defence etc.
#11 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 5:12 pm
Indeed, Dubbieside, but that doesn’t really address the question raised in my response.
As regards financial powers, for example, what power and influence would Scotland have as an independent eurozone member that it doesn’t have as a member of the poundzone (to coin a phrase).
#12 by JPJ2 on June 14, 2011 - 12:54 pm
“However, it’s surely the case that Scotland would have less influence at the EU level (with near-30 member states) than it currently has as a constituent part of the UK, where indeed it’s often been claimed that Scotland has had influence disproportionate to its size; during the ‘new Labour’ years, for example.”
I regard this as profound nonsense-can anyone seriously believe that an independent Scotland could not have negotiated a better deal over fishing than Heath did?
I now regularly role out this comparison of the island of Ireland for those who do not realise it:
Scotland has 6 (SIX) MEPS in the European Parliament.
The island os Ireland has 15 (FIFTEEEN-12 for the Irish Republic and 3 for the North). The Irish Republic also has a seat at the top table.
So, I am supposed to believe that Scotland would not be better off as the 28th state of the EU rather than the current position-that is simply ridiculous, Mr Winton!
#13 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:01 pm
But again would Scotland be more influential as an EU member than it is as a member of the UK?
Scotland would be one of near 30 EU states, but is currently one of four nations in the UK?
Prima facie Scotland would have less influence in the EU than it currently does in the UK.
What’s so good about the former and bad about the latter?
#14 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 4:09 pm
Because the EU and the UK are completely different things
#15 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 5:45 pm
Hardly *completely” different things, Indy, they’re both political/economic unions pooling sovereignty, to a greater or lesser degree.
#16 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 6:16 pm
You and I are the same person then. We are both carbon based life-forms after all.
#17 by Allan on June 14, 2011 - 8:22 pm
Er… no… they are both unions of existing countries and states. Using that logic, the EU is a completely diferent beast to, say, the United States of America…
#18 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:15 am
And by the same logic the EU is a completely different beast to the UK. The UK is a single independent state. It is not a union of independent states.
#19 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:27 pm
Yes, but EU members aren’t ‘independent’ either!!
#20 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 5:04 pm
Yes they are.
#21 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 5:43 pm
So whats this “Treaty of Union” that nationalists keep babbling on about? Presumably a union between two seperate soveriegn states?
#22 by Erchie on June 15, 2011 - 6:08 pm
Glad you admit that then.
So you will therefore admit that Scotland is a Sovereign State well capable of taking up Independence
Good to see the change of heart Mr Ruddy!
#23 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 8:58 pm
I never said that it wasnt capable – in fact Scots have been involved in the adminstration of many countries around the world – inlcuding the UK!
#24 by JPJ2 on June 14, 2011 - 12:56 pm
Sorry, forgot to mention-for those who do not know-the population of the island of Ireland (15 MEPs to Scotland’s 6 remember) is LESS than Scotland.
And Mr Winton, presumably the 27 current states don’t regard themselves as independent???
#25 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:05 pm
Dubbieside wrote:
“And Mr Winton, presumably the 27 current states don’t regard themselves as independent???”
But if the current states are independent vis-a-vis the EU then couldn’t you equally argue that Scotland is currently independent vis-a-vis the UK?
In both scenarios the nations are pooling sovereignty at the supra-national level.
#26 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 4:12 pm
No. Scotland is not a sovereign state. It has no sovereignty to pool. The Scottish Parliament is not a sovereign parliament. Westminster is sovereign – including in devolved areas.
The EU is not sovereign, even in areas where it has competence. The member states are sovereign – they agree to pool sovereignty in certain agreed areas.
It is a completely different situation.
#27 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 5:52 pm
Regarding the legal niceties, perhaps, but de facto Scotland is a member of the UK by the consent of the people. After all, at the last Westminter poll the SNP were trounced, and the SNP don’t want a referendum at present, which says it all surely?
So haven’t the UK member nations “agreed to pool sovereignty in certain areas”, or are you saying Scotland wants out?
If so then why not call the referendum?
#28 by Don on June 14, 2011 - 8:53 pm
All it says is that Salmond promised a referendum in the last years of this parliament and is sticking to that timetable. Trying to infer any other reason or meaning from that is dishonest and treating the people of Scotland with contempt.
You are a unionist, yes?
#29 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 12:21 am
No, I wouldn’t term myself a unionist, Don.
And don’t bother with the ‘dishonest’ and ‘contempt for the people of Scotland’ nonsense.
If Alex Salmond thought he could win a referendum now he’d have it tomorrow. Period.
#30 by Don on June 15, 2011 - 10:03 am
No he wouldn’t. When the referendum comes, people will be asked to choose between independence and what Scotland will be post the Scotland bill, not the current status quo. Since we don’t know what Scotland will be post the Scotland bill (although most experts agree it will be a disaster area), how can we have a referendum today, tomorrow or even next week?
#31 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:27 am
If the SNP was as cynical as you appear to think we would have the referendum immediately. Labour are leaderless and divided – check out the debate on Labour Hame, they are nowhere near deciding a position on the referendum and many of their activists are evidently are very aware of the dangers of getting into bed with the Tories in a unionist alliance The Lib Dems are still shell shocked and have also not decided their position – witness David Steele telling Michael Moore he was talking hooey about the need for two referendums – and the Tories are, well, the Tories.
As things stand if there was a referendum next month the SNP would be facing a no campaign led by the likes of John Reid, Michael Forsyth and whoever else they could scrape up. And it would be a campaign that the SNP would pretty much get to control from the word go as there would be no time for other interested parties to have an involvement. It would, in other words, be a continuation of the successful Scottish Parliament campaign and, as Michael Portillo said, who would bet against the SNP winning?
But it would also be a complete farce as it would not allow for any proper debate or scrutiny of the issues and would not allow for any meaningful direct participation and involvement from the Scottish people.
And that is why we are going to do what we said we would do and give everyone enough time to have a proper debate.
#32 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:33 pm
Sorry Don and Indy, however you dress it up it’s really about the SNP playing it to maximise their advantage. If independence was really so necessary to Scotland’s future then they’d start the ball rolling forthwith, but they figure it’s better to wait a couple of years.
You’re trying to make a virtue of necessity, as the SNP are.
And, Don, Alex Salmond suggested a third option last week (FFA or similar), because this looks the most winnable option at the moment, but expect this to be dumped if full-fat independence looks a goer.
#33 by Dubbieside on June 14, 2011 - 4:16 pm
Dubbieside wrote?
#34 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 5:52 pm
Indeed!
#35 by aonghas on June 14, 2011 - 1:48 pm
Executive summary:
Ahem. Any sensible person must agree with the following assertions that I believe to be true.
[ASSERTIONS HERE (e.g. – Scotland has more influence with pooled UK sovereignty than it would as an independent country. Because you believe independence is desirable, an independence referendum must therefore occur as soon as possible. etc)]
(let’s set aside the fact that I know you don’t agree and assume that the assertions are self-evident).
So anyway given that I’m right, how come you don’t agree with me?
#36 by DougtheDug on June 14, 2011 - 1:56 pm
Stuart, “devo-max, independence-lite and confedaralism”, are all terms thrown about by unionists not nationalists and I’ve not actually seen any evidence that the SNP has ever called for a combined foreign service with England or a joint defence force. Could we have some references please. When Scotland leaves the UK it will have three choices, keep the pound, join the euro or have its own currency. Until a decision is made on that issue it makes sense to keep the pound as the Scottish currency.
The Euro and the ECB hasn’t changed the status of those in the Euro as sovereign nations but in the light of the recent banking disasters in Europe perhaps an independent oil-backed currency for Scotland would be a more sensible solution.
The complaint with the UK supreme court is that it has become the court of appeal for criminal cases in Scotland which is against the treaty of Union. English courts can block human rights appeals to the UK supreme court but Scottish Courts can’t. The issue isn’t about human rights but about whose legal system gets to make judgments on them. The issue isn’t human rights or the competence or not of the Judges in the UK supreme court but about an English court having jurisdiction in Scotland.
I simply don’t understand how you can equate the European Union which is an association of sovereign states with the UK in which Scotland is as you say, “…a constituent part…”, and the idea that Scotland as a region of a State has more power in the EU and the world than it would as a fully sovereign state is simply ridiculous. Does Brittany wield more power than Finland? Does Andalusia wield more power than the Czech republic? Both have comparable populations.
No other nation in the world has has so much hand wringing done over it about, “What does sovereignty and independence really mean”, all in the style of, “Will no-one think of the children!”, in the history of mankind. And it’s all done by those who don’t want it to be a state.
There is no difficulty with the concept of sovereignty. It has numerous examples within Europe and those states that wish to be part of the EU do so by agreeing to a treaty, an agreement between sovereign states.
#37 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:17 pm
DtD, indeed it’s all a bit wooly, but that’s because the SNP hasn’t really outlined what independence means, so you can hardly accuse others for speculating about the party’s raison d’etre, or is discussion of the biggest issue for a generation off limits?
But as regards ‘foreign service’, for example, a couple of years ago the Times reported:
“The SNP came under fierce attack after a document entitled “Europe and Foreign Affairs†was published yesterday in Brussels by Michael Russell, the SNP constitution minister, as part of the government’s “National Conversation†on Scotland’s future.
“The document says that under current arrangements, Scottish government officials working on Scottish affairs work alongside UK representatives overseas, reflecting the fact that in many policy areas Scottish and UK interests coincide.
“However, it adds: “Independence would not change that and there is no reason why close co-operation on policy and representation, up to and including shared services, should not continue where Scotland and the UK (rest of the UK) agreed that was of mutual interest.—
Thus hardly fully sovereign and independent?
As regards the euro, how can you argue that members’ sovereign status hasn’t been affected?
You can’t give up a major plank of economic sovereignty and say that national sovereignty is unaffected. And again what’s wrong with sterling that’s so good with the euro as regards ‘independence’?
As regards an independent Scottish currency, the SNP’s long-term plan is still to join the euro, isn’t it? Or does the party know?
#38 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 4:24 pm
That is a ridiculous argument. If your definition of independence means that there can be no close co-operation on policy or representation between independent states then there is not a single independent country in the world – because all countries work with other countries where they share poliices or objectives in some respect or another.
I repeat the SNP is not arguing for some new form of super-independence for Scotland but simply for the same sort of independence that other countries have.
#39 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 6:02 pm
Of course independence can’t be absolute. It’s a question of degree.
#40 by Erchie on June 15, 2011 - 6:14 pm
So you conflate COOPERATION with SUBSERVIENCE?
Shared military bases exist within NATO
Shared Embassies and Consulates exist around the world
But, these are not signs of cooperation, apparently, but of subservience.
France and the UK decided to cooperate with Concorde and Eurotunnel, France, Germany and the UK meet to discuss common areas of policy within the EU, France and the UK are to cooperate on Aircraft carriers
Tell me, in these cooperative situations, who was subservient to whom? Who was not independent?
#41 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 5:52 am
So Erchie you’re implying that Scotland is co-operating with the other UK countries?
So what’s the problem?
#42 by DougtheDug on June 14, 2011 - 4:40 pm
Stuart, independence means independence. The Scottish Parliament will be the supreme parliament in Scotland and if there is co-operation with other states such as Norway or Ireland on defence and mineral rights it will be done via international treaties. England will be treated in the same way. I’m sure you have no problem in regarding France and Germany as independent states, why therefore do you have such a problem with regarding Scotland and England as independent states?
Have a look at Finland. That’s what independence means. Or Norway, or the Czech Republic, or France.
“Close co-operation on policy and representation…where Scotland and the UK (rest of the UK) agreed that was of mutual interest”, does not mean a single, combined UK foreign service. It means that the Scottish and English foreign services will work together where it is to the mutual benefit of their respective countries. It seems quite reasonable to me though I think that Mike Russell should have pointed out that mutual interest and foreign co-operation could just as likely be with other states.
#43 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:26 pm
Per DtD “The issue isn’t human rights or the competence or not of the Judges in the UK supreme court but about an English court having jurisdiction in Scotland.”
So the ECHR having jurisdiction in Scotland is OK then?
And my point about Scotland in the EU is not about Scotland having influence via the UK in the EU, but comparing Scotland’s current influence in the UK per se with an independent Scotland’s influence in the EU.
I would argue that the former is greater than the latter, yet you regard the former as bad, but the latter good?
So less influence in Europe is better than more influence regarding matters decided at Westminster?
As regards the EU being an “agreement between sovereign states”, isn’t this the case with the UK, or do the Scottish people actually want out of the UK? Not at present, or the date for the referendum would have been called.
Thus I can’t really see any difference between the pooling of sovereignty in the two unions – it’s done with the consent of the people in both scenarios.
#44 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 4:44 pm
But they are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Why can’t you get that?
There is a lot of misunderstanding of the EU in my opinion. We all hear the various statistics thrown about concerning what proportion of laws the EU makes for us – the exact quantity seems to vary, sometimes it is “most”, sometimes “50 per cent” and I have even read “80 per cent”. It may be that people misunderstand this to believe that “most” or “50 per cent” or “80 per cent” of POLICY is controlled by the EU. That is simply nonsense however. Aresa where the EU has exclusive competence are actually quite limited – and must be agreed by all the member states.
Maybe you cannot see the difference between the “pooling of sovereignty” between sovereign states within the EU and the situation in the UK – but that does not affect the fact that Scotland is not a sovereign state and has not pooled sovereignty within the UK. That is not debatable, it is an incontrovertible fact.
#45 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 2:04 pm
Let’s start on the basis that no country in the world is completely independent – and the SNP does not want Scotland to be the only truly independent (or even the most independent) country in the world. We just want the same level of sovereignty as everyone else has.
Therefore all the arguments that you can’t really be independent if you don’t have your own currency or if you belong to the EU or NATO or whatever are just red herrings. Those decisions are about what nations choose to do with their sovereignty, not whether or not they have it.
On the point about the Supreme Court. I note that today the Supreme Court is hearing a case brought by AXA General Insurance Limited and others trying to overturn the Damages (Asbestos-related Conditions) (Scotland) Act 2009 on the grounds that somehow or other it undermines the insurance companies’ human rights. Not so much ambulance-chasing in that case as hearse-chasing. The more of this kind of thing that goes on the more the SNP is going to be vindicated in my view.
Lastly James you must surely know – and if you don’t why don’t you – that the Scottish fleet is probably the most environmentally friendly fleet there is. It’s the industrial fishing operations, led by the Spanish, who should have been told to get out of the North Sea, not the Scots.
#46 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:30 pm
Indy wrote:
“Therefore all the arguments that you can’t really be independent if you don’t have your own currency or if you belong to the EU or NATO or whatever are just red herrings. Those decisions are about what nations choose to do with their sovereignty, not whether or not they have it”.
But Scotland currently chooses to pool sovereignty with the UK, so what’s so bad about that that would be good about Scotland choosing to pool sovereignty with the EU?
#47 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 5:48 pm
And if that case is decided in favour of the Scottish Government by the Uk Supremem Court, it will be a right and proper decision, etc, etc.
Interestingly, the Uk Sc has found more cases in favour of the Scottish Government than against….
#48 by douglas clark on June 14, 2011 - 2:18 pm
Indy,
Yes. It is actually quite hard to swallow some of the arguments that are being promulgated in the opinion piece. For instance, is the USA not independent because it is a member of NATO, is France not independent because it is a member of the EU? We’d be obliged to accept that for the thesis to have any merit whatsoever. This is a rather typical slice and dice attempt to pretend that sovereignty is a hard concept when it is, in fact, pretty simple.
#49 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:37 pm
Douglas (Clark)
So you don’t agree that a member of the eurozone is less independent than a nation with its own currency, for example?
Or that France is less independent as an EU member than Switzerland, say?
Of course it is.
You could just as well argue say that Scotland is independent vis-a-vis the UK.
Of course it isn’t, but it’s more independent than it was twenty years ago.
Sovereignty is a question of degree, it’s not absolute.
#50 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 2:27 pm
Yes let’s go into it a bit more deeply perhaps.
The Republic of Ireland is a member of the EU, a member of the eurozone but not a member of NATO.
Norway is not a member of the EU or of the eurozone but is a member of NATO.
Finland is a member of the EU and of the eurozone but is not a member of NATO.
Sweden is a member of the EU but not a member of the eurozone and not a member of NATO.
Denmark is a member of the EU but not a member of the eurozone and is a member of NATO.
Which of those countries therefore is “really” independent? Answer: All of them.
#51 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:41 pm
Indy, you could equally construct an argument saying that Scotland is a UK member and is thus independent, but that’s clearly a misrepresentation.
But it’s more independent as a member of the UK than China is vis-a-vis Tibet, for example.
#52 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 5:00 pm
So what?
What the heck is the point of any of these torturous analogies?
Let’s spell it out for you.
Scotland wants to have the same independence as Ireland, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
That is easy enough to understand is it not?
The fact that they have chosen to do different things with their independence is neither here nor there. The point is that, because they are independent countries, they are able to choose.
You say that Scotland is more independent than Tibet is in China or that Scotland has more influence in the UK than an independent Scotland would have in the EU so aren’t we a bit independent really.
No I am afraid not, doesn’t work that way!!! If only it did. If it did we could just decide to hold a referendum on independence worded any damn way we chose because hey we are more independent than Tibet is in China so we can pretty much do what we like. Or we could just order the MoD to start packing up their Trident missiles for removal from Scotland because we are nearly independent after all – we are just wanting to unpool some of that sovereignty we have shared, Lol.
#53 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 9:26 pm
Lol indeed, Indy.
I didn’t say Scotland was independent in the absolute sense, I just said it was *more* independent than Tibet, or perhaps autonomous is a better word.
“We can pretty much do what we want”.
Nonsense, you’re grossly exaggerating my point.
#54 by Doug Daniel on June 14, 2011 - 2:30 pm
I must admit I skipped a fair chunk of this article – I suspect splitting it into four might have been more appropriate. Besides, a lot of it is bog-standard unionist guff, to be honest. Perfect example:
“but would Scotland have any more international influence as a separate entity than (indirectly) as a member of the UK?”
I wonder when we’re going to stop seeing this daft question in its various forms? When asking this question, Stuart is making an assumption that Scotland has some sort of influence as part of the UK in the first place. It doesn’t. UK decisions are made for the benefit of the bulk part of the UK, namely England. Scotland already has no influence, so it’s not possible for an independent Scotland to have less influence – how can its influence become less than zero?
For every other member state of the EU, they make their voice heard directly to the European Parliament. For Scotland (plus Wales and Northern Ireland), we have to go through an extra stage before we reach the European Parliament, because we have to make our voice heard in the UK first, and then convince the UK that our voice should be the UK-wide voice. That’s nae happening.
Incidentally, I would take issue with JPJ2’s analysis as i think he’s missed a trick here. Why compare Ireland (population 4,470,700) with Scotland (population 5,222,100)? It’s far more accurate to compare us to Finland (population 5,374,781), Slovakia (population 5,429,763) and Denmark (population 5,564,219). All three of those countries have 13 MEPs, which is what I expect Scotland would get as a full member of the EU, as it appears countries with populations over 5,000,000 get 13 MEPs.
With our current 6 MEPs, we (notionally) have the same influence as Estonia (population 1,340,021), Cyprus (population 1,088,503), Luxembourg (population 511,840) and that giant of Europe, Malta (population 412,966). Yes, that’s right – a country with a population smaller than Glasgow and one with a population smaller than Edinburgh have the same number of MEPs as we currently do. It’s a ridiculous situation.
#55 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 2:33 pm
The other point there that oeople often forget is that where the interests of the UK and an independent Scotland coincided that would actually work to the benefit of the UK – because they would have an additional ally backing them.
#56 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:48 pm
“When asking this question, Stuart is making an assumption that Scotland has some sort of influence as part of the UK in the first place. It doesn’t. UK decisions are made for the benefit of the bulk part of the UK, namely England. Scotland already has no influence”
Again you seem to portraying Scotland to the UK as Tibet is to China.
And even if Scotland had fuller representation at the EU, would it have any more influence in Brussels than it currently has in London?
Of course not. If you say the UK is run for England then the EU is run for France, Germany and the other big euro states.
You clearly haven’t read the article. Oh, but you admitted to that anyway!!
#57 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 5:10 pm
Oh dear God.
“And even if Scotland had fuller representation at the EU, would it have any more influence in Brussels than it currently has in London?”
What does that question even mean?
Let’s start with the basics. The things that Brussels and London control are not the same things. Brussels cobntrols the EU things. London controls the UK things.
Would an independent Scotland Scotland have more influence in Brussels than we do now? Yes of course because we currently have none because we are not an independent member state.
Would an independent Scotland have more influence in London than we do now? No we would have diddly squat influence in London because we would not longer be part of the UK so we would not send MPs tp London and Westminster would have no say over Scotland.
So do we think it is better to have some influence in Brussels – where we currently have none – than to have some influence in London at the cost of our independence?
Yes. Because we want to be an independent member state which belongs to the EU as opposed to being a non-independent region of the UK.
#58 by Doug Daniel on June 14, 2011 - 6:05 pm
But Stuart, the UK and EU aren’t interchangeable. We’re already in the EU as part of the UK, yet when you say things like “would it have any more influence in Brussels than it currently has in London” you make it sound like the UK is completely independent from the EU, and that influence in London is as important as influence in Brussels.
It’s a very simple point: to have its say in EU matters, Scotland currently has to go through London first, because the UK is the member state of the EU, not Scotland. Going through London dilutes any influence Scotland currently has in EU matters. As a member state of the EU, Scotland would have a direct voice to Brussels, rather than having to go through London first.
As Indy and others have stated, in cases where the Scottish and rUK positions are the same, then it would benefit both parties to have two independent states backing each other. When their positions are opposing, then Scotland would finally be able to put across its own position, instead of having it blocked by London. Simples?
Oh, and if the EU is indeed run for the benefit of France and Germany etc, then that doesn’t change regardless of whether Scotland is independent or not. So that’s a moot point. However, the UK is a union of one large country and three smaller ones. The EU is a union of several large countries and several smaller ones. In the UK the one large country has a monopoly, which is not so in the EU.
#59 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 6:51 pm
“The EU is a union of several large countries and several smaller ones. In the UK the one large country has a monopoly, which is not so in the EU.”
So you’ve got an oligogopoly in the EU compared to a monopoly in the UK?
And the former is preferable?
Sounds a bit like saying that the three corner shops in a town with one Tesco superstore are in a worse position than the twenty corner shops in a town with a Tesco, Asda and Morrison’s.
#60 by Don on June 14, 2011 - 9:39 pm
At least an ologogopoly would lead to the chance of concencus. Can the same be said about a monopoly?
The crux of your argument, Stuart, appears to be that unless Scotland throws a wall round itself, cuts all ties to other nations, becomes entirely insular, it cannot truly call itself independent and, that being the case, it’s as well sticking with the union, regardless of how well that serves Scotland.
Is that the best case you can make for the union?
#61 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 12:32 am
Don, the point about the oligopoly analogy is that Scotland would still be outside the big boys, so I was comparing Scotland against Tesco in the UK context, or Scotland, Ireland, Greece etc against Tesco, Asda and Morrisons in the EU. If anything the corner shop is in an even worse position against the oligopoly than against the monopoly, even if there are more corner shops against the monopoly!
And, no, my argument isn’t that Scotland has to cut itself off to be independent. It was about comparing the pooling of sovereignty in the UK and the EU.
#62 by Doug Daniel on June 15, 2011 - 1:03 am
Well actually, yes, the oligopoly is preferable to the monopoly, purely down to the fact that you do not have ONE supermarket calling all the shots, but that doesn’t mean its perfect.
However, as far as I’m aware corner shops and supermarkets are not joined into some sort of economic union where corner shops have to do what the supermarkets say. As a result, it’s a very flawed comparison. Besides, the big supermarkets are far too similar, whereas there are big differences between the large EU states.
The point I was actually making was that as the sole big player in the UK – and with a bigger size than all the other parts combined and multiplied several times – England’s interests are the de facto interests of the UK. This is not true of the EU, where no single member state has more power than all the other states combined. This means the smaller states have an active part to play, as disagreements between the larger states require the smaller states to get on board too.
The 2010 UK election result was a perfect example of this, as Scotland clearly voted for a Labour government, but was given a Tory one. Even if every seat in Scotland and Wales had gone to Labour, they would still have lost out to the Tories. So the UK is currently being governed by the party England elected, as it always is.
#63 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 7:27 am
Doug, but is the corner shop in any better position if there’s an Asda, Tesco and Sainsury’s than if there was just a Tesco because in the latter case only one supermarket is calling the shots? No, the corner shop gets trampled either way.
And it’s usually easy to take a simple analogy and then pick out the differences and hence call it a “flawed comparison”, but that’s just a ploy to detract from the fundamental point.
For example, which countries does the European Central Bank consider when setting interest rates? Well it would be silly to consider only Ireland (say) when there’s France and Germany with 150 million people between them.
So Ireland’s economy is on its knees, while France and Germany are powering on. So interest rates are set for an inflationary German economy, whereas deflation is in prospect for Ireland. Ergo, Ireland’s economic position is worsened.
As regards the EU generally, how do you square your argument of equality between member states with the fact that representation in the European Parliament is based on population?
Or that the larger states have more votes in the European Council?
Or even assuming equal representation, Scotland would only be one of near 30 states, thus of limited influence.
As regards the UK, you can always make these kinds of arguments at numerous different levels. For example, during the previous umpteen years Labour dominated both Scotland’s representation at Westminster and Westminster as a whole.
And as regard the independence question, Scotland still returns an overwhelming majority of Unionist parties to Westminster.
If the current scenario changes that then so be it, but again you seem to be positing some sort of major injustice for which there’s scant evidence.
#64 by JPJ2 on June 14, 2011 - 2:57 pm
Doug Daniel “Incidentally, I would take issue with JPJ2′s analysis as i think he’s missed a trick here.”
I certainly agree that your analysis is equally valid (and at some level simpler) but my late Irish mother, and I suspect many in Scotland, can relate very clearly to the ridiculousness of Ireland having 15 MEPs and Scotland 6.
#65 by Doug Daniel on June 14, 2011 - 5:14 pm
It’s certainly ridiculous, but I suppose my point is that there’s no need to lump both parts of Ireland together when there are already examples of countries with similar populations to Scotland having over double the number of MEPs. In fact, Ireland as a whole has a population of around 6,259,700, so even if there was a united Ireland, it would quite rightly have more MEPs than Scotland. Bulgaria (population 7,351,234) has 18 MEPs, so I suppose 15 MEPs would be about right for a united Ireland (maybe 16 though). Actually, that in itself is a bit odd and makes you wonder just how MEP numbers are allocated, since Bulgaria gets 5 MEPs more than Denmark with just 1.8 million more in their population, whereas Austria then has just one more MEP than Bulgaria, despite having over a million more citizens.
Ach, who cares about the maths? The basic fact is true regardless of whichever argument you use: Scotland should have more than double the number of MEPs it currently has.
#66 by ReasonableNat on June 14, 2011 - 3:12 pm
You talk as though the UK is no longer in the EU – as though we can compare the two as options??? All the sovereignty currently pooled by the UK on Scotland’s behalf will, yes, still be pooled on independence. Right now our ‘independence’ is diluted first by membership of the UK, then by membership of the EU. Removing the dilution effect of the UK might not render us as ‘independent’ as North Korea, and without our own currency we might not be as ‘independent’ as the UK is right now, but we would certainly be more ‘independent’ than we are right now, about as ‘independent’ as Denmark I think.
#67 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 3:53 pm
There’s another example of this confusion with the question posed on Labour Hame which they claim went unanswered.
“The SNP mantra is that Scotland should control all its domestic affairs. Given that the EU already makes up to 50 per cent of all member states’ law, why don’t the SNP support withdrawal from the EU as well as withdrawal from the UK?”
It’s like another variation of “why do you want to break free of London rule just to give sovereignty to the EU?”
You can try and answer those kinds of questions ratioally by explaining that independence would not change the legislative powers which the EU has in Scotland. Those policy areas in which the EU has competence would not be changed by Scotland becoming independent. What would be changed is the areas in which the Scottish Parliament had competence. So all areas which are currently reserved to Westminster would be transferred to Holyrood – while the areas in which the EU has competence would stay as they are.
I don’t think that is difficult to understand.
#68 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 4:55 pm
Indeed Indy, that’s the point.
What’s so good about having reserved powers at the EU level that’s bad about having reserved powers at the UK level?
What’s so bad about Scotland currently ceding sovereignty to the UK that would be so good about an independent Scotland ceding sovereignty to the EU?
#69 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 5:16 pm
Because the areas in which the EU has exclusive competence are limited and do not undermine the independence of the member states.
#70 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 5:52 pm
Define “do not undermine the independence of the member states” in terms of agriculture, fishing, trade, environment?
#71 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:40 pm
Are you another perfson who claims not to understand what independence means?
I wonder why you are so opposed to it then.
#72 by John Ruddy on June 16, 2011 - 7:38 pm
Those are pretty fundamental aspects of the Scottish economy and policies in those areas will affect a great many Scots. But its fine to have them controlled by someone else… just so long as we get our own team in the Olympics!
#73 by Indy on June 17, 2011 - 1:21 pm
They are also pretty fundamental aspects of the UK economy – do you suggest that the UK is not an independent country because of them?
#74 by John Ruddy on June 17, 2011 - 6:52 pm
Its not as independent as some would like it to think – but it does at least have control over its own currency, which the independent Scotland, from what little we’ve been told about such things, will not have.
#75 by Stuart Winton on June 17, 2011 - 7:28 pm
Well the UK INDEPENDENCE Party certainly doesn’t seem to think so, and I suspect many more would agree with that.
But the question is whether compromising national sovereignty by way of EU membership is a good thing, and the UK consensus seems to be that it is, but of course this hasn’t been directly tested since 1975, but on the other hand UKIP has never formed a UK government or obtained a majority in the European elections.
But perhaps in ten years time there’ll be a Scottish Independence Party campaigning to take us out of Europe, headed by Jim Fairlie ;0)
#76 by Doug Daniel on June 14, 2011 - 4:59 pm
It’s not, in fact it’s ridiculously simple. Just like the concept of a single referendum is ridiculously simple. In fact, most of the things about independence which unionists don’t appear to understand are ridiculously simple. This leads me to two possible conclusions: either unionists are generally of low intelligence, or they just wilfully misconstrue matters for the sake of obfuscation. If it’s the first, then perhaps education can help them. If it’s the second, then you have to ask what their ulterior motive is, something which is particularly puzzling amongst Scottish unionists.
#77 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 5:06 pm
Oops. Thought I’d ignore your slightly insulting opening remarks, Doug (Daniel), but have to have a laugh at this one.
So do you think that unionists perhaps shouldn’t have a vote if they’re of lower intelligence, perhaps, since you seem to dismiss unionists arguments as somehow invalid because of their deemed low intelligence.
And if they’re of lower intelligence would educating them really help?
They’d still be of low intelligence, surely, if perhaps more knowledgeable?
(I’m sure there’s an argument that education increases intelligence, so perhaps Doug – or a specialist – could elucidate this.)
#78 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 5:29 pm
I don’t think it is about low intelligence, I just think you have been conditioned to think in a certain way.
Look at it another way. Let us imagine a film or a book where the UK had been absorbed into the United States. I seem to remember a Daphne Du Maurier book along those lines. Then imagine that there was a movement that the UK should become an independent country again like France or Germany or Spain.
Would you find that concept really difficult to grasp? Would you say but surely the UK would have more influence in Washington than it would in the EU or would you say but how cou’d the UK actually be independent if it joined the EU and had to take on the treaty obligations, regulations and directives which would take precedence over domestic legislation and case law? Or would you say well the UK would have more independence as a state of the USA than Tibet does in China so I don’t really get the premise of this book or film?
I suggest you would not. It may be that you might think the UK would be better off being a state of the USA than being an independent country that is part of the EU – but I think you would understand why other people might think no the UK should become independent again and you would not ask a lot of tomfool questions about what independence really means because it is actually pretty obvious!
#79 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 9:33 pm
Well again I daresay the UK as a state of the USA would have less autonomy than as a member of the EU, but again it’s a question of degree.
You can’t say that the UK is totally autonomous/independent vis-a-vis the EU, because it’s not.
Jim Fairlie gets it, so are you saying he’s been, er, conditioned as well?
Many Nationalists disagree with EU membership for the very reasons I outline, so what’s the problem with the concept of degrees of sovereignty/points on an autonomy continuum, or whatever?
What about Gerry Hassan’s arguments about ‘fluid’ sovereignties, or Prof John Kay’s?
#80 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 6:05 pm
Doug Daniel wrote:
“This leads me to two possible conclusions: either unionists are generally of low intelligence…”
By the way, Doug, does your argument apply to European Unionists – thus the bulk of the SNP – or just vis-a-vis the UK scenario?
#81 by Doug Daniel on June 14, 2011 - 6:07 pm
I’m just going to bash my head against that brick wall over there for a couple of hours…
#82 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 6:19 pm
I’ll join you
#83 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 7:14 pm
You mean you can’t address the point?!?
#84 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 5:00 pm
By the way, most people seem to be addressing the article through the prism of the Scotland currently being a member of the EU via the UK, which isn’t really what it’s about.
It’s about Scotland and powers currently reserved to Westminster versus an independent Scotland and powers reserved to Brussels.
The currency issue is perhaps the best example.
Thus what’s so bad about sterling that’s good about the euro as far as Scotland and independence is concerned?
#85 by Angus McLellan on June 14, 2011 - 10:53 pm
Dressing up fuzzy questions which ultimately come down to sentiment as choices between good and bad isn’t helpful. Nobody can predict the future, so there must be a huge amount of guesswork involved when we ask about independence. And that applies equally to arguments for and against. The status quo isn’t set in stone and how it changes involves a great deal more than the state of opinion in Scotland. We are sleeping with an elephant after all.
As you said yourself, none of the options – status quo, sterling zone, euro, nor even a separate currency – is without problems. Monetary policy will always be a blunt tool and whatever the extent of the currency zone may be, there will always be economic variations within it which cannot be accomodated. The hypothetical perfect interest rate for Fraserburgh is probably not the same as for Falkirk, Farnborough, or Frankfurt. All of the possible answers contain a mix of good and bad.
Things like comparing Westminster and the EU seem easier, if only we had the facts of the matter. Westminster now possesses more substantial veto powers in theory than the EU ever will, that’s obvious enough. At Westminster, EU legislation makes up only a small part of the total, but what are the shares in Scotland for Holyrood, Westminster and Brussels? We can’t judge without some credible numbers.
#86 by douglas clark on June 14, 2011 - 6:03 pm
Stuart Winton @ 21,
That wasn’t the argument I was making. AFAIK almost every country in the world is either a member of the UN or wishes to be so. Whilst the yoke of UN collective action may be light it definitely does have an effect on sovereignty, for example the ICC. It is worth noting that there are signatories to the ICC, in other words countries throughout the world that have agreed to bide by it’s rules and law. To that extent what they have done is pooled their sovereignty. This is not a difficult idea. But it depends on a nation having the authority to sign that treaty. Scotland currently does not and the UK signed it on our behalf. We couldn’t make our own minds up – which wouldn’t have been difficult we’d have signed it anyway – but the principle of pooling sovereignty is best done at the level of the nation state, not some sort of UK level where we can be easily outvoted on anything whatsoever.
So, it flatly comes down to whether you view the Scottish or the British electorates as sovereign. The former view is mine, the latter appears to be yours. It is why we find ourselves on opposite sides of this debate.
#87 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 6:11 pm
Indeed, Douglas, sovereignty lies with the people, and the Scottish people have indicated what regarding pooling sovereignty at the UK level?
Again you seem to be portraying things as the Scottish people having indicated a preference to secede from the UK but being prevented from doing so when in fact they haven’t.
It’s the SNP that want to delay a referendum which would clarify the sovereignty issue, not me and indeed it’s self-evident that the party is doing so so they can water down sovereignty and indepedence sufficiently to sell it to the Scottish people.
#88 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 6:25 pm
Actually technically Stuart sovereignty does not lie with the people. That is a distinctly Scottish idea.
The UK is based on the principle of parliamentary sovereignty. The parliament in question being Westminster.
That is why Westminster could quite legally over-rule any Act of the Scottish Parliament – though politically that would be a high risk strategy.
That is one of the big differences between the UK and the EU. In the UK Westminster is sovereign – when we say that particular areas are devolved all that means is that the Scottish Parliament is allowed to legislate in those areas. It does not mean that Westminster cannot.
#89 by Malc on June 14, 2011 - 8:30 pm
If you want to be pedantic, sovereignty in the UK lies with the “crown in parliament”. But let’s not go down that road again…
But yep – Westminster could even repeal the Scotland Act if it wanted.
#90 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 9:48 pm
But these are to a large extent pedantic constitutional arguments.
For practical purposes I can’t see how the sovereignty of the Scottish people is being impeded, unless, for example, we voted clearly and decisively in a referendum to secede from the UK but they sent troops north to stop us.
Thus for practical purposes the sovereign Scottish people are quite content to be part of the UK and consent to the pooling of sovereignty at Westminster.
Thus my point in essence is what’s so bad about that and good about coming out of the UK and pooling sovereignty at the EU level?
Your democratic consent argument is slightly abstract. For example, the UK people didn’t have a say on the Nice of Mastricht treaties – both of which further pooled sovereignty in Brussels, but do the SNP think we should pull out of the EU as a consequence?
I’ve no objection in principle to either the idea of the EU or Scottish independence, but I just don’t get this idea that pooling sovereignty in London is inherently a bad thing, but pooling sovereignty in Brussels is inherently good.
Which is indeed neatly encapsulated in the euro v sterling argument.
Of course, the SNP seems to have adopted a bit of realism on the issue, but at the euro’s inception the kneejerk reaction was that the European single currency just had to be better than sterling.
#91 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 10:06 am
No they are noit pedantic constitutional arguments.
They are the reason why the Scottish Parliament is so restricted in what it can do.
I will try one last time to explain why your point about an independent Scotland “coming out of the UK and pooling sovereignty at the EU level?” is quite meaningless.
Scotland coming out of the UK will result in all the policy areas which are under Westminster’s control being repatriated to the Scottish Parliament. That includes fiscal, economic and monetary policy, trade and industry, financial markets, broadcasting,the constitution, international relations, defence, oil and gas, electricity, aviation, benefits, pensions, immigration, employment, control of weapons of mass destruction, time and outer space.
This would give the Scottish Parliament sovereignty in all these areas – in common with all other EU member states. It would not give the EU sovereignty in all these areas.
If it was ever suggested that the EU should have control of all of these areas it would spell the death sentence of the EU because no member state would agree to that. Why would they not agree to that? Because it would mean that they would no longer be independent countries any more.
That is the difference between the EU and the UK. The EU is made up of independent countries which agree to pool sovereignty in certain areas that they all agree to but which does, in their vieew, not undermine their independence. The UK is not made up of independent countries. In the UK Westminster alone is sovereign.
#92 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:39 pm
Again all this has been addressed elsewhere, but in particular I never claimed that the ALL sovereignty would be ceded to the EU by a separate Scotland. Indeed, much the same as is ceded via the UK at present, unless, most obviously, Scotland joins the euro.
#93 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 5:55 pm
How can you return monetary policy if you keep the £ sterling? How will you return a trade policy, when its decided in Brussells?
#94 by Angus McLellan on June 15, 2011 - 8:50 pm
It’s wrong to claim that an independent state inside a currency union has no control of monetary policy. Take Belgium as an example. It may not set interest rates or reserve ratios, but it does issue debt and debt is one part of the monetary policy toolkit. But even states which issue their own currency are constrained in their monetary policies by decisions made elsewhere. (On second thoughts, maybe North Korea isn’t, but …) So the real choice is not between the status quo and unattainable absolute freedom, but between the status quo and the same degree of control over monetary policy which is exercised by most independent European states.
Your second question doesn’t look good: have trade policy decided in Brussels as now, or have it decided in Brussels in the event of independence-in-Europe? But again it based on a flawed premise. All aspects of trade policy are not decided in Brussels even though the amount of European legislation on trade matters is large in comparison with most other areas. And as with monetary policy, there’s almost no state can exercise absolute freedom in setting trade policy when GATT, the WTO and all the other practical constraints are considered. An independent-Scotland-in-Europe would, unsurprisingly, have much the same freedom to set trade policy as the UK or Finland.
#95 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:42 pm
We won’t return monetary policy if we join the euro after a transition period with sterling.
So what?
#96 by John Ruddy on June 16, 2011 - 7:39 pm
You said you would return it.
And monetary policy is virtually half of any economic policy. Apparently we need independence so we can have full control of our economy for the benefit of Scotland – except we only really need half of the levers…..
#97 by douglas clark on June 14, 2011 - 6:40 pm
Stuart @ 44,
You are playing games with me, aren’t you?
It is perfectly clear that the Scottish people have never been asked their opinion on either union or independence through a referendum. That much is clear.
Your position appears to be that because we haven’t been asked then that equates to agreement. It didn’t in 1707 and it still doesn’t. Until the question is put there can be no definitive answer to what the Scottish people actually want.
It is, however, useful to use real examples to illustrate a point. Which is what I have done.
It is perfectly clear that the SNP would have to delay a referendum forever in order to convince you. However, as this is a once in a lifetime decision, I think all the arguments require to be discussed out in the open and that is going to take time. Myself? I want a straight question put:
“Do you want independence? Yes / No.
But I hope folk will be able to make a decision on that question based on a reasonable understanding about what it means and certainly not the obscurantism which you have been guilty of so far.
#98 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 7:06 pm
And things have changed since the UK referendum on EU membership in the 1970s, so to that extent are you saying that the UK’s EU membership somehow has no democtratic legitimacy?
The point is that democracy isn’t perfect, but there’s no demonstrable evidence to suggest Scotland wants out of the UK.
There will never be a ‘definitive’ answer to democratic questions, because there are always caveats. You can’t have referendums on every issue every other day, for example, so democracy can’t be perfect and provide the definitive answer.
And if you’re so clear about what the Scottish people want then where’s the evidence?
The best evidence seems to be the less than one in four of the electorate who voted SNP last month, but of course we know even many of these don’t support independence.
Likewise, if Scotland did become independent I wouldn’t be moaning that Scotland wasn’t having a referendum every six months to confirm this, unless of course there was substantial evidence to suggest Scottish people wanted something else.
And if the question and issue is as straightforward as you want, then why bother with the delay?
The answer is that it isn’t straigthforward and the SNP don’t know what they want, hence the delay.
And it looks like you won’t get your simple question as far as the SNP is concerned – a third option which would maintain the Union was suggested by Alex Salmond last week – so who’s guilty of obscurantism?
#99 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 9:28 pm
Whatis democracy though? Can a country really be democratic if itsforeign policy might be partly determined by an unelected body such as the UN or NATO? And what about allowing monetary policy to be decided either by the Bank of England or the European Central Bank. Who elected them?
But all this brings to mind the UK Government’s commitment to the UK remaining part of the European Union and thus having the democratic will of the British people compromised by the full panoply of treaty obligations, regulations and directives which would take precedence over domestic legislation and case law.
Though come to think of it have we any evidence that the British people actually give two hoots about democracy? I haven’t read any opinion polls suggesting that. Maybe it is because, much like independence, no-one actually knows what it means. And you will find that the proponents of democracy really can’t engage with these points but just blather on about voting and stuff.
So all in all we don’t know what democracy is, we don’t know if people care about it – there is no evidence that they do – but I reckon we still have more of it than Tibet.
Please nobody engage with this nonsense. We all know what democracy is just as we all know what independence is. I am merely engaging in sarcasm or perhaps suffering from concussion after all that banging my head off a brick wall.
And what about the EU then?
#100 by ReasonableNat on June 14, 2011 - 7:18 pm
It’s a bit of a shame that we seem to get permanently tied up in debates over the same, mostly stupid points, and amongst a great deal of posturing on both sides. It is not, surely, beyond our wit as a nation to attempt to understand each other’s point of view, and to try to converge upon a compromise that might satisfy the majority? Is it?
#101 by Jeff on June 14, 2011 - 7:46 pm
Here, here!
Let’s hope part 2 will fare better….
#102 by Don on June 14, 2011 - 9:28 pm
Based on Stuart’s replies, I somehow doubt it will.
#103 by Indy on June 14, 2011 - 9:42 pm
Life would become easier if people would start by acknowledging that they know what independence means.
It is a massively simple concept.
Just about everyone in the world understands what it means apart, apparently, from a proportion of blogging Scots who appear to regard it as an astounding new concept which requires endless debate to define what, exactly, it means.
My advice to them would be that the next time they are abroad – and there are 194 independent countries in the world they can choose to visit – just stop the first man, woman or indeed child walking down the street and ask them what independence means.
And once they have grasped the concept maybe we can get on to discussing whether or not it is a good idea.
#104 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 10:13 pm
Indy, it may suit your purposes to posit independence as a simple concept, but others clearly think otherwise, including the likes of John Kay and Gerry Hassan, as I mentioned earlier.
Your problem is that you don’t want to accept independence as a disputed concept because you know that the SNP aren’t at one on what it means, thus it suits your purposes to portray it as unproblematic.
But, I mean, if asked on Newsnight whether an independent Scotland would mean retaining sterling, joining the euro or having a new Scottish currency, Nicola Sturgeon can’t answer and instead says it’ll be whatever’s in the interests of Scotland (ie’ I dinnae ken’) then how can you claim that the concept of independene is straightforward?
#105 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 10:15 am
It is not a disputed concept Stuart. People may dispuite whether or not it is a good idea for Scotland to become independent but the concept of independence is neither disputed nor mysterious to the vast majority of people.
The vast majority of people understand, for example, that independent countries can decide for themselves what currency they should use, wheras non-independent countries cannot. Therefore the question what currency will an independent Scotland have is almost entirely specious. The question what currency does the SNP support Scotland having in the post-independent period is perfectly valid and the answer is sterling. Further than that however no-one can say because it depends on decisions which will be taken in the future which nobody on earth can predict.
#106 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:42 pm
So Scotland will continue to share sovereignty with London and the Bank of England after, um, indepedence.
QED.
#107 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 5:11 pm
Yes sure I would have no problems at all with an independent Scotland choosing to share a currency with the rest of the UK in the immediate post-independence period, though my personal preference would be to join the euro. Just as I would have no problems allowing the UK military to have bases here, or to continue to share command and control functions in cases of national emergencies or disasters, or to have reciprocal arrangements in terms of access to healthcare – or any other arrangement which might be decided. Such arrangements are commonplace between neighbouring countries, I don’t see why we should be any different post-independence.
#108 by John Ruddy on June 17, 2011 - 6:53 pm
And would you allow those foreign forces to have nuclear weapons on their bases? Which is likely, given the fact that the UK currently has them.
#109 by ReasonableNat on June 14, 2011 - 10:41 pm
Hmm, I guess it is!
#110 by Alex Buchan on June 15, 2011 - 3:56 pm
The problem is the article is so obviously not an attempt to explore the issue, so much as a demolition job on the whole idea of Scottish independence that it would have got the same responses regardless of whichever forum it was posted. Basically Stuart set out to provoke. He clearly gets something out of it.
#111 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:46 pm
Yawn!
So anyone not agreeing with you is just being deliberately provocative.
Classic smear from someone with nothing useful to say.
If you want to see deliberate provocation then the worst of it is certainly on the Nationalist side.
#112 by Alex Buchan on June 15, 2011 - 5:43 pm
How come then this debate has got precisely nowhere. Contrast what passes for debate here to the kind of deliberation you get on equally contentious issues on blogs like the Irish blog, Slugger O’Tool. Neither side in this debate is taking on board anything the other side is saying. You happen to single-handedly constitute one of those sides. There have been attempts by others like ResonableNat to try to find a middle ground by saying: OK, let’s have maximum autonomy inside the UK, but you seem just not interested unless people accept your entire premise wholesale.
#113 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 12:45 pm
No-one knows what Stuart’s premise is, that is the problem.
He suggests that the fact that the SNP iwould be happy for an independent Scotland to pool sovereignty within the EU on the same terms as any other member is based a “London bad: Frankfurt, Brussels and Strasbourg good” attitude.
And, no matter how many times it has been pointed out to him, fails to acknowledge that the difference between the EU and the UK is based on the powers that they possess and the terms on which those powers are exercised rather than on their national location.
It’s pretty pointless really.
#114 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 7:12 pm
Well of course you want to portray it that way, Indy, but the reality is something else.
#115 by ReasonableNat on June 16, 2011 - 2:26 pm
Just for the record, I favour independence. I just think the electorate should be given the choice of the option that, as far as we can tell from recent polling, is the one that they favour. I have no problem with the SNP also offering the choice of independence and campaigning for it; with the mandate that they have just secured it is only fair that they have the chance to do this. I also object strongly to the behaviour of unionists in resisting the right of the people to have a choice, and to their implementation of a solution (Calman) that is wanted by a much smaller minority even than independence.
We’re going to see a pretty detailed proposal on independence from the SNP at some point. The recent comments on post-independence cooperation from the SNP are a strong signal that, while campaigning for their preferred option, they will also try to offer solutions to counter some of the unionists concerns. I want to see some unionists offering a detailed proposal too, again offering specific solutions to some of the nationalist concerns. It would be really nice to see both sides positively campaigning for packages that attempt to address the concerns of both sides because both sides really do have valid points.
#116 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 5:05 pm
I don’t think that is going to happen though.
Another option would be to literally give voters a list of the powers which are reserved and ask them to indicate which ones they would like to see transferred to the Scottish Parliament and which ones they would like to remain reserved to Westminster.
Those who supported independence would obviously tick all of them – but if there was a majority in favour of retaining certain reserved powers then that would be the setltlement that was then negotiated.
It would be a complex ballot paper but might actually be the simplest way pf arriving at an outcome, supposing there was no majority for independence, and would at least ensure that the settlement accurately reflected what people want to happen.
#117 by ReasonableNat on June 16, 2011 - 5:47 pm
I certainly wouldn’t object to that on priciple – I don’t see it happening in practice though, too complicated. I guess I should probably just shut up since the unionists are winning my argument for me anyway.
#118 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 7:06 pm
You make it sound like my premise is that the Union is preferable to Scottish indepenendence, but that’s not really the premise of the article at all.
#119 by douglas clark on June 14, 2011 - 7:51 pm
Stuart @ 48,
Your ‘obscurantism’ is the assumption that any pooled sovereignty argues against independence. I do not believe that is a credible arguement.
What is simple is what independence would mean for a Scottish State. What people need to be sure about is what it would mean for them.
For instance older voters appear to support the notion of a continuing union more than younger voters. We need to find out why. Is it, perhaps, because they are worried about their state or private pensions? We need to address that worry.
On your other point, I would frankly be astonished if London would allow the third question, y’know FFA and federalism (FFA/F). If Hollyrood was an example of anything it was an example politicians underestimating what the Scottish voter might do. Offering FFA/F would make independence later more likely, not less likely. I’d have thought even Westminster would be ‘once bitten, twice shy.’ Indeed I suspect Salmond knows this.
#120 by ReasonableNat on June 14, 2011 - 8:15 pm
And herein lies the fundamental problem, a problem of trust and respect.
In terms of respect, the UK goverment and the unionist establishment in general really has to stop using a lack of a majority in favour of independence as an excuse to assume that the status quo is acceptable – such a substantial minority is currently in favour of it that there is no valid argument that there is ‘no problem’ to be addressed. They need to understand that unless they are seen to seriously engage in a process that is designed to deliver what that majority of Scots actually want, essentially ‘full devolution’, that Scots may end up being forced into a corner and may end up voting for independence because that is the only other option available.
In terms of trust, they need to realise that Scots always have, and always will have, the right to choose to stay in the union or to leave it. Accept that, trust us with precisely the amount of devolution that we want, at whatever time we want it, and trust us to make the right choice, whatever that might be. Since they are, themselves, convinced that the union is the correct choice they should have the courage of their convictions.
#121 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 12:50 am
Reasonable Nat
So the last time the Scots voted in the Westminster context they voted overwhelmingly for the Calman parties rather than the SNP, so what does that tell you?
And although even reasonable pro-independence commentators agree that the Holyrood result wasn’t an endorsement of independence, Westminster isn’t objecting to the principle of referendum (although strictly speaking it’s only advisory), so what’s the problem other than Alex Salmond delaying it?
#122 by ReasonableNat on June 15, 2011 - 1:57 am
It tells me that on balance the elecorate decided to elect the parties that they did, at each of these elections, for a complex mixture of reasons that are only in part reflective of their constitutional aspirations.
This in no way contradicts (and neither does the result at Holyrood) the findings in recent Scottish social attitudes surveys, that the majority are in favour of both full fiscal autonomy and considerably more devolution than is currently on offer from any on the unionist side. This is the problem. The UK government has the power to offer the degree of devolution being sought by Scots, which includes, for example, control of corporation tax. It is resisting this. Not only should it not be resisting this, because it is the will of the people (and if surveys and polls are not sufficient evidence of this, they too have the power to hold referenda), it should be offering it, without having to be asked. Neither should the unionist parties, in the form of Calman, have cynically (and knowingly) offered a solution that is far short of what the people want.
Apparently neither the UK government, nor the unionist parties in general, have enough faith in the strength of their argument to trust the people enough to deliver, or offer, a structure that they know that the people want. What good can this do?
Yes, I’m a nationalist, yes, I favour independence, but foremost I’m a democrat, I want the people to get what they want. Apparently the persistence of the union is more important to the unionists than any noble ideal like democracy.
#123 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:50 pm
But there’s no evidence ‘the people’ want to end the union, if you want to talk about ‘noble ideals like democracy’.
#124 by ReasonableNat on June 15, 2011 - 6:00 pm
If you’re asserting that there is no current evidence pointing to a majority in favour of independence then, of course, you are quite right. There’s plenty of evidence that ‘the people’ wanted to have that referendum though, around 70% if memory serves. As I said before, there’s also plenty of evidence that ‘the people’ want FFA.
The SNP are arguing their case, they’ll follow up by offering a choice, a referendum (wanted by ‘the people’) that will almost certainly offer FFA as an option. That is democratic behaviour.
The unionist parties did not offer independence as an option in the 1997 referendum. They’d have voted down a referendum with independence as an option in the last session of the Scottish Parliament. They’re implementing Calman without asking ‘the people’ and while they can see, as well as you or I, that there is even less support for Calman than there is for independence. They’re resisting the devolution of additional powers when they know full well that ‘the people’ want those powers transferred. You’re not going to try to claim that this is democratic behaviour, are you?
We all know that ‘the people’ want FFA. If the UK government, and the unionist parties, are serious about the union, they ought to stop denying ‘the people’ their right to be served according to their will. They are breeding resentment. It might ultimately get me what I want, but if Scots eventually choose independence I’d far rather they did it for positive reasons than due to a lack of respect from their (unionist) politicians.
#125 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 6:15 am
Some reasonable points there – as befits a ReasonableNat! – but arguments of that kind can always be made either way, because democracy isn’t an exact science.
For example, the SNP are denying the will of the people by delaying a referendum.
The ‘six powers’ were barely mentioned during the campaign, so there’s no real mandate, and it’s disingenuous to do claim one.
Alex Salmond is just breeding resentment by suggesting the public want the six powers – how many of those who voted SNP last month could even begin to articulate the six powers in question? Very few.
Where in the SNP’s election literature are the six powers mentioned? I suspect you’d have to go to the manifesto, assuming they’re even there.
Thus Alex is being dishonest, stirring up resentment, denying the people their desire for a referendum, blah, blah…
#126 by ReasonableNat on June 16, 2011 - 9:31 am
You’re still missing the point. These six powers are all well within what we all understand to be devo-max. We all know that the majority of Scots want devo-max. So why are the UK government resisting the transfer of these powers? Why do the unionist parties want to implement Calman, rather than devo-max? Because they are afraid on the one hand that Scots will associate the basic concept of additional transfer of powers with greater prosperity / better government / more success, and on the other hand that FFA (as part of devo-max) will make the financial situation crystal clear. All while knowing, as you and I both do, that the public want this, that it is their preferred option. This lack of trust, lack of respect, and anti-democratic behaviour stands to destroy the union far more quickly than any ‘slippery slope’ ever would. Seriously, they should take a long hard look at the demographics of the polls; individuals might not generally switch from unionism to nationalism but new generations come to new conclusions. If unionists don’t reverse this trend they’re going to lose their majority in a decade or two.
Now, if you want to be extremely pedantic, yes, you can argue that Salmond is being anti-democratic by not offering a referendum today. Again, that really isn’t the point – we have to judge governments on what they do over their elected terms. If he fails to deliver a referendum in this term I’ll be the first to agree with you, if it does not include a choice of devo-max, again, I’ll be the first to agree with you. We’ll see. For what it is worth, I think given his majority, we just need to respect his right to call it when he wants – if he chickens out both sides will judge him harshly.
There are options out there that stand to offer a compromise which could easily satisfy a majority of the electorate, at least in the medium term. Rather than wasting our time arguing about what independence ‘really means’ couldn’t we better spend our time coming up with a solution, or a range of solutions, that could be put to the people. If we take all of the criticisms of each position in turn it really isn’t that hard to come up with solutions.
Devo-max with:
A veto for the devolved administrations over military deployments abroad, and over the siting of nuclear weapons within their boundaries.
A governance structure that allows devolved administrations to opt in or out of certain shared matters – devolution from the bottom up.
A defined protocol handling devolved administrations’ representation in supra-national organisations.
Independence with:
A new poundzone (thanks, above) central bank to govern Sterling, responsible to both governments (like a mini-eurozone).
A new supra-national defence organisation, established by treaty, to govern defence for the former UK, retaining the existing military structures, and to retain our UN security council seat.
A new supra-national cultural organisation, established by treaty, to govern, for example, the BBC.
OK, I’m sure there are a million holes in all of these suggestions, but you get the point I hope, where there is a will there is a way, and if I can come up with a bunch of solutions in two minutes, then I’m sure collectively we can create something pretty clever, instead of arguing the same old nonsense all the time.
#127 by Don on June 15, 2011 - 11:45 am
Are you claiming, Stuart, that the only mandate the people of Scotland gave those MPs elected in Scotland is to keep Scotland in the Union. Nothing else. So if Jim Murphy supports, say, trident, he has no mandate to do so? Or if Douglas Alexander comes out in favour of the Iraq invasion, that was entirely off his own back and he over reached his authority?
On the other hand, why is it only Westminster elections that give an indication of how Scots feel about the constitution? Is the Holyrood elections not an indicator also?
#128 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:56 pm
Can’t see how you construe what I said as the Union being the only mandate given to Scottish MPs, Don.
As for Westminster/Holyrood and the constitution, I don’t think it’s a hard and fast rule, but there’s certainly little evidence of a surge in Holyrood support for the SNP consistent with Westminster which would suggest that voters want to end the union.
Remember, the sophistication argument rationalisting increased Holyrood support for the SNP posits that this is because voters are increasingly differentiating devolved from reserived issues, in a nutshell.
#129 by Don on June 15, 2011 - 9:02 pm
“So the last time the Scots voted in the Westminster context they voted overwhelmingly for the Calman parties rather than the SNP, so what does that tell you?”
Ok, Stuart, what did you mean by this statement? Were you not implying that because Scots overwhelmingly voted for the Calman parties rather than the SNP that this was an endorsement for the Union, or at the very least the Scotland bill? An assertion that only holds true if we accept that people would only vote for parties to endorse the union (or Scotland bill) and for no other reason.
#130 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 6:22 am
Clearly voters select their party for a variety of reasons, but presumably the big issues are the predominant ones, thus the Union and the Scotland Bill?
And it’s not difficult to turn your argument round and say that people voted SNP for a multitude of reasons, thus if Alex Salmond says its a mandate to devolve the Crown Estate powers then that’s bullocks.
#131 by Don on June 16, 2011 - 4:10 pm
Yet during every election campaign over the last 10 years, the unionists have maintained that the constitution wasn’t a big issue. The every helpful beeb carried out surveys showing it’s not even in the top 10. Are those unionists wrong? Is the consitution one of the big issues? Or is it only a big issue when it suits, i.e. after the votes have been counted?
#132 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 10:02 pm
Douglas (Clark) wrote:
“Your ‘obscurantism’ is the assumption that any pooled sovereignty argues against independence. I do not believe that is a credible arguement.”
Well to repeat my point, you might as well characterise Scotland as currently independent as regards the UK because sovereignty is pooled with the de facto consent of the Scottish people.
And there are certainly plenty of people – including SNP members – who would argue that adopting the euro, having interest rates set in Frankfurt, being a member of the EU and thus subject to the ECJ and regulations/directives from Brussels, and being subject to the jurisdiction of the ECHR in Strasbourg compromises independence.
Again you would probably argue along the lines of Indy that it’s all down to demcratic consent, but that’s precisely the argument I use as regards Scotland’s current relationship with the EU.
Which indeed is just a rehasing of the argument used in the article, so thus far we’ve achieved very little but go round in circles!
#133 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 12:53 am
Of course, when I mentioned the EU at the end of the second last paragraph I actually meant the UK – sorry!!
#134 by Allan on June 14, 2011 - 9:18 pm
Good post as always Stuart.
I suspect that if the polls are correct, and that the majority of people in Scotland wish to stay within the Union, then a lot of the comentators above just won’t understand a no vote.
For example the exchanges surrounding the percieved differences between the UK & the EU. Most people i suspect think that there is more influence to be had at EU and in the greater world staying within the Union, than striking out on our own to join another Union. It’s not “Unionist spin”, just the ingrained perception of something called the “Union dividend”. As an aside to the above, I’m not sure that the majority of Scottish people would welcome a potential 8 further candidates to the longest gravy train on the planet, considering how out of touch the current European Parliament is already.
The sovereignty issue is something that will need to be addressed before any referendum. But as I think most people are aware, thats not the only thing that needs to be addressed. Adopting the shortbread & tartan argument for independence is just not enough. The SNP needs to make the case than Scotland can be governed better, can make better decisions and can be a beter more prosperous place than under the Union. But your post shows up the inconsistancies in the SNP argument, inconsistancies that, say, John Reid would make hay with.
“By the same token, May’s election was self-evidently about who should run a devolved Scotland” – ah, posted about this today.
#135 by Stuart Winton on June 14, 2011 - 10:21 pm
Thanks Allan; at last, someone who at least partly agrees with me!
Indeed, the argument that an ‘independent’ Scotland would ipso fact be a better place is a bit like the argument that governance from Brussels just has to be better than governance from London.
To me it’s just a variation on blind party loyalty, instead the problem being blind allegiance to a Scottish state. Or an EU superstate ;0)
#136 by ReasonableNat on June 14, 2011 - 10:45 pm
Or a British state?
#137 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:39 am
“Indeed, the argument that an ‘independent’ Scotland would ipso fact be a better place is a bit like the argument that governance from Brussels just has to be better than governance from London”
Please please please try to understand that the things which are governed from London are not the same as the things that are governed from Brussels.
That is why there is no question of swapping London rule for Brussels rule and the whole premise of your argument is wrong.
#138 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 10:37 am
What does “shortbread and tartan” mean? Is it perhaps shorthand for issues which are of importance to rural communities like fishing? Like this kind of stuff?
1. ‘The Common Fisheries Policy has comprehensively failed. It is time now for showing that we can give power back to the nations. Only they have a vital interest in conserving their own fish stocks.
2. ’‘The patience of the fishing industry with the Common Fisheries Policy has clearly been exhausted. One does not have to be a genius to see why. We must be careful, however, not to exchange one set of bureaucrats, who do not understand the industry, for another. Abolishing the Common Fisheries Policy is only the first step. We must replace it with a system that puts fishermen themselves at the heart of fisheries management. Control must be exercised at the lowest possible level. We should also be prepared to learn from the experience of our Nordic neighbours especially in Norway, the Faroe Islands and Iceland. They have been successful outside the Common Fisheries Policy. There must now be opportunities for us to learn from and work with them.’
3. ‘The … fishing industry was betrayed when the nations’ assets were given away behind the cloak of deception with all the resulting social and environmental consequences. It is still being betrayed today and the only way to save this fine … industry is to repatriate fishing policy by introducing national control.’
4. ‘Our only hope of recovery is to abandon the Common Fisheries Policy and reclaim control of UK waters. “
So which nationalist politicians do you think made those comments?
1. Austin Mitchell MP, Labour Party, Great Grimsby
2.Alistair Carmichael MP, Liberal Democrats, Orkney & Shetland
3. Ann Winterton MP, Conservative Party, Congleton
4. Roy Beggs MP, UUP, East Antrim
You see these shortbread and tartan issues actually matter to quite a lot of people. Indeed Alex Salmond’s bill to repatriate control of fisheries was one of only a handful of private members bills in the House of Commons ever to be supported by members of ever party represented in the House of Commons.
#139 by Allan on June 15, 2011 - 7:22 pm
Indy
The “Shortbread & Tartan” argument is the pro Independence argument that goes along the lines of we should be independent because we used to be a nation we should be a nation again and not be tied to the yokel of English rule. The argument that things will be better if/when we become a nation again without specifying the routemap to those sunlit uplands. Of course the SNP probably has some sort of explanation as to how we are going to arrive at destination Independence, but that probably doesn’t take into account either the unpopularity of Independence (if the polling evidence is to be believed), or the precieved wisdom of “the union dividend”.
On the “unpopularity” of independence, i personally think that this is down to the arguments for Independence being largely undeployed & untested. We have now had 3 Westminster elections since the advent of devolution. I would have thought that those elections would have provided an ideal platform for the fully fleshed out (stats and all) Independence argument.
I’m not sure why you have quoted the Common Fisheries Policy at me, isn’t that part of the European Union? The organisation a lot of SNP members would like Scotland to join – we would join the Common Fisheries Policy should we swap one union for a bigger union.
#140 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:57 pm
The “Shortbread & Tartan†argument is the pro Independence argument that goes along the lines of we should be independent because we used to be a nation we should be a nation again and not be tied to the yokel of English rule.
Ah. So it is entirely imaginary then.
On your point about “the Union Dividend”. I have never really agreed with that phrase – and if I were a unionist I would be dead against it because it sounds like Co-op stamps. Get a free bottle of fabric conditioner if you spend ten pounds on the Union sort of thing.
However it is certainly the case that there have been many shared institutions and values that have given people in Scotland a sense of Britishness and a pride in being British so I guess you could call that a kind of Union divident. However the world has moved on. Things change. Many of the things that people regarded as being part of that Union dividend are being dismantled the British state. The NHS. The welfare state – by that I don’t mean the nuts and bolts of the welfare system but the underlying concept that the State has a responsibility to care for the vulnerable. The opposite of the Big Society.
So what you have to ask yourself is what positive attributes are left? Where is the overwhelming advantage of remaining in the Union which is worth the sacrifice of national independence? What is it – getting to build a few battleships or have the pleasure of playing host to the UK’s weapons of mass destruction?
Devolution has created the infrastructure for statehood so the concept of becoming a fully fledged state is no longer a daunting one. The truth is – whisper it – independence is actually not that big a deal and is the logical progression from wherte we are now. And if you want to stop it you will have to explain why it would be so terrible.
#141 by Allan on June 16, 2011 - 8:19 pm
“So it is entirely imaginary then.”
Well, not imaginary at all. I think that’s most people’s perception of the SNP’s arguments thus far for independence, although the shortbread & tartan anology is a little crude.
“So what you have to ask yourself is what positive attributes are left? Where is the overwhelming advantage of remaining in the Union which is worth the sacrifice of national independence? What is it – getting to build a few battleships or have the pleasure of playing host to the UK’s weapons of mass destruction? ”
I would say that should be the starting point for any pro-independence debate/campaign, were it not for the fact that the die hard unionists (the really die hard unionists, as opposed to independence-sceptics like myself) have started the drip drip campaign tactic already.
“Devolution has created the infrastructure for statehood so the concept of becoming a fully fledged state is no longer a daunting one. The truth is – whisper it – independence is actually not that big a deal and is the logical progression from wherte we are now.”
Sorry, but 180+ comments here and about 200 on James post show that the where now question really still has to be agreed.
#142 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 6:00 pm
Indeed Allan. One SNP MSP has already told me that if this referendum returns a ‘no’ vote, the SNP will be putting us through it all again “until we get the right answer”.
#143 by EphemeralDeception on June 14, 2011 - 10:34 pm
This article does nothing but try to obfuscate as opposed to shine any light on the subject.
Is France as a member of the EU a soveriegn independentcountry? Who has sovereignty and who decides Frances represntation in Europe? A. The French do.
What about Scotland? To raise just a few examples…
Who decides Scotlands Defence policy, for or against its wishes? = UK
Who currently uses Scotlands weight without its voice in Europe? = UK.
Who decides where Scottish military are sent in foreign conflict? = UK.
So, Scotland as part of the UK cannot refrain from participating in actions it neither wants or needs and has to contribute towards.
As for Europe, why should Scotland be represented in Europe through the prism and policy of the UK? It makes sense and only makes sense of Both Scotland and UK are agreed on policy. When they are agreed on policy they would have a bigger combined weight as separate States.
The bulk of the mumbling by the author of the article fails to comprehend these aspects. Why is that? I guess this is linked their own ideology mentioned in the Title.
Rather than posing misleading questions the author should perhaps site examples of what the UK has done primarily in Scotlands interest either in Europe or in UK policy, in the last 30 years or so? The answer to the sovereignty questions rest within.
#144 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 4:59 pm
So what’s the historical evidence the Scots don’t want sovereignty pooled at Westminster?
That’s the crux of the matter.
#145 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 5:17 pm
No it is not. The crux of the matter is that the Scottish people will be given the opportunity within the next 4 years to vote on whether they want Scotland to be an independent country.
They will not be asked to write a 74 page essay on whether they think an independent Scotland would have more influence in the EU than a non-independent Scotland had in the UK. That may (!) be an interesting academic debate but it is nothing to do with the question.
How will you vote- or will you abstain on the grounds that you don’t understand the question?
#146 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 6:30 am
Problem is that even the SNP doesn’t understand the question, Indy!
But the consent of the people is the crux of the question when comaring Scotland’s current relationship with the UK with an independent Scotland’s relationship with the EU.
#147 by douglas clark on June 14, 2011 - 10:41 pm
Stuart Winton @ 74,
The problem that I have with your argument is that we do not have pooled sovereignty in the UK. Given the relative weights of representation in Westminster for Scotland and England, Scotland has subsumed sovereignty.
As has been pointed out to you, Westminster sees itself – in it’s famous unwritten constitution – as able to do as it pleases with subsidiary institutions including national ones. You will recall Stormont being suspended, reconvened, etc, etc.
#148 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 12:13 am
Douglas, if Scotland had for years demonstrated a desire to secede from the UK – via opinion polls, say – but Westminster thwarted a referendum, say, then I could see your point.
However, that’s not the case, but because of the SNP’s mandate in Holyrood, Westminster has rightly acceded to the principle of a referendum, despite there still being no demonstrable support for independence.
Clearly it’s a different ball game since May, but Westminster has taken due cognisance of this, thus I can’t really see the problem with pooled sovereignty, democratic consent etc.
As for the ‘relative weights of representation’ in the UK, again that seems to miss the point about shared sovereignty.
An independent cotland wouldn’t have equal representation in the European Parliament, for example.
And I don’t really think Stormont is a good example.
#149 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 6:05 pm
Stuart, the nationalists view IS that Westminster has thwarted the will of the Scottish people. Everything that any of the other parties does is designed to “do down Scotland”.
#150 by Andrew BOD on June 14, 2011 - 11:33 pm
Hi Stuart
As usual I don’t really agree with most of your assertions, but I have to applaud your determination to inspire heated debate!
Your opening statement is the key to all that has been talked about:
“If nothing else then Scottish independence is surely about sovereignty.”
Sovereignty to decide whether to be part of the EU, EFTA, NATO, or whether to be part of a financial or military union with our UK neighbours. If those organisations allow us to negotiate entry into treaty or indeed ‘union’. And if the people decide that Scotland should be a sovereign state only then these things will become possible. I’m sure the debate on the merits and shortcomings of treaties and unions would continue if Scotland became a sovereign state, and so it should. It may even involve further referenda! (Perhaps that’s what the Lib Dems have been talking about!)
Whether Scotland has a greater influence in the EU within the UK, or as an independent state is entirely hypothetical and almost impossible to measure. However, I can’t resist reminding you of ROI’s second vote on the Lisbon Treaty and how another no vote might have changed the direction of the EU. Hypothesis again you may say, but at the time it was big news across Europe. Scotland, as part of the UK, would never be able to have the same influence.
Allan, I have to remind you that the “potential 8 further candidates to the longest gravy train on the planet” would be offset by the 59 candidates being withdrawn from the second biggest gravy train on the planet.
#151 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 5:06 pm
Hi Andrew
Indeed, it’s not unknown for small entity in some kind of democratic environment to have pivotal influence disproportionate to their size.
For example, there was the small SNP failing to support Labour and ushering in the Thatcher era in 1979(?)
Or Alex Salmond’s offer last year to join Labour et al in a ‘progressive alliance’ at Westminster.
That was not long after he threatened to ‘hang Westminster with a Scottish rope’, thus clearly he thought that the SNP could exert influence out of proportion to their size, albeit that things didn’t quite work out as he wished.
But of course the more normal case is that in an environment like the EU Scottish influence woul be limited.
#152 by Allan on June 15, 2011 - 7:33 pm
Well, true, well put.
I would remind you though that the EU has not had a budget properly signed off since before Kinnock was a commissioner (1994 possibly?), but certainly the EU is a large black hole for money – not all of it for white than white purposes.
#153 by Doug Daniel on June 15, 2011 - 12:38 am
There’s a statement you made further up which I feel gets to the crux of why you seem to be unable to understand the not-very-nuanced differences between Scotland’s current position in the EU, and it’s proposed position as an independent nation.
“What’s so bad about Scotland currently ceding sovereignty to the UK that would be so good about an independent Scotland ceding sovereignty to the EU?”
First, can we just get a few facts set out here?
1. Member states of the EU have pooled sovereignty together, meaning decisions taken in Brussels affect member states
2. Scotland is not a member state of the EU
3. The UK is a member state of the EU
4. Scotland is part of the UK
5. All parts of the UK are affected by EU decisions
Scottish sovereignty is effectively ceded to Westminster entirely. As stated elsewhere by others, Westminster can repeal the Scotland Act at any point, so devolved issues are only devolved as long as Westminster allows them to be devolved. Indeed, the current Scotland Bill attempts to withdraw some of these devolved issues due to unintended consequences, like the SNP government realising that their lack of control over nuclear energy policy could be cleverly sidestepped by using planning powers.
So all Scottish sovereignty is ceded to London, whereas only some UK sovereignty is ceded to Brussels, and as a constituent part of the UK, this means the equivalent Scottish sovereignty is also ceded to Brussels.
To recap so far: London controls Scottish sovereignty. Brussels controls some UK sovereignty. As a direct result, Brussels controls some Scottish sovereignty.
If Scotland becomes independent, and thus a full member of the EU in its own right, then the EU will control the same Scottish sovereignty as it currently does. The difference is the remaining sovereignty that the EU does not control would be Scotland’s to keep or give away as it pleases. Is the Euro good for Scotland? Then join the Euro. It isn’t? Well, stick with Sterling then. That’s rubbish too? Okay, let’s create a Scottish currency.
To recap: under independence, Brussels would control the same amount of Scottish sovereignty as it currently does. Nothing more, unless Scotland chose to do something that the UK did not.
So if we look back at your flawed question, (“What’s so bad about Scotland currently ceding sovereignty to the UK that would be so good about an independent Scotland ceding sovereignty to the EU?”), the answer is clearly thus: Scotland already cedes sovereignty to the EU as part of the UK. It does not, however, cede all sovereignty to the EU, whereas it does cede it all to the UK. Independence would have Scotland continuing to cede the same level of sovereignty to the EU as it currently does – the same as other member states – but it would also finally have control over aspects of sovereignty that the UK currently controls, which is not something those same member states have to worry about.
Do you understand yet? It really isn’t complicated. Of course, the first thing an independent Scotland might choose to do is emulate Norway’s position, which would make this “debate” look ridiculous. Currently we are in the EU as long as it is convenient for the bulk part of the UK, so the UK could decide to leave the EU even though Scotland wishes to remain in it, or vice versa.
But if you choose to understand one thing Stuart, make it this: being independent is not the same as being isolated.
#154 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 7:01 am
Doug, no offence, but if you want to be patronising then I should point out that I realised Scotland had ceded sovereignty to Europe via the UK when we had the referendum on the Common Market in 1975. Were you even born then?
But your various statements above misrepresent the true postion, in my opinion at least.
How can Scotland have ceded *all* sovereignty to Westminster if some powers have been repatriated to Holyrood?
And even when all sovereignty actually did lie with Westminster this was with the democratic consent of Scotland.
Of course, you argue that ultimately Westminster is sovereign, but that’s with the consent of the Scottish people. In particular, Scots have never returned any more than 11 MPs to Westminster, thus where’s the evidence that Scotland didn’t consent to ceding power to London, in modern history at least. The way you talk you’d think Scotland had been returning 40 or 50 SNP MPs for the last few decades – or some similar demonstration of the democratic will suggesting Scots objected to pooled sovereignty – and that Westminster was thwarting a demonstrable desire for independence, however that’s clearly not been the case.
By the same token, as regards matters within the EU’s competence Brussels is currently sovereign, but again this is only with the consent of the member states, and that consent could be withdrawn.
Again you could get pedantic and say that since a referendum has never been held on Scottish independence per se then there’s no evidence of consent, but I doubt if many EU members have consulted their populations on joining, so to that extent if you applied the same standards to the EU as you do to the UK you’d effectively be claiming that the EU is fundamentally lacking in democratic legitimacy.
If things are different now regarding Scotland’s relationship with the UK then that’s all well and good, but until Alex Salmond names a date then we can only really speculate and can’t really draw any definitive conclusions regarding democratic legitimacy.
A Whatever the extent of shared sovereignty in the UK, it has the democratic consent of Scotland.
B The SNP want an independent Scotland to share sovereignty within the EU.
Mainstream SNP opinion seems to regard A as inherently bad, but B as inherently good.
But I can’t really see the difference in principle between the two.
And your various responses merely underline this paradox.
#155 by Richard Thomson on June 15, 2011 - 12:21 pm
Stuart – I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but I get the feeling that if you had to turn left then turn right 100 yds later on your way to the paper shop of a morning, you’d see that as a paradox which rendered the exercise of buying a newspaper pointless.
#156 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 5:10 pm
Richard, certainly a paradox of sorts, but it wouldn’t necessarily render the buying of a newspaper worthless, although if it was your own it would very probably have little relevance to my own personal news agenda ;0)
#157 by Doug Daniel on June 15, 2011 - 9:46 pm
I don’t know why I’m bothering since you’re clearly unable or unwillling to understand the point I and others are trying to make to you, but here goes.
“How can Scotland have ceded *all* sovereignty to Westminster if some powers have been repatriated to Holyrood?”
Because Westminster can take those powers back at any point, as it intends to do in the Scotland Bill’s current state. This is a really, really simple concept. I really don’t understand how you can fail to grasp this.
“And even when all sovereignty actually did lie with Westminster this was with the democratic consent of Scotland.”
When was this referendum that asked the people of Scotland if they wanted to surrender all sovereignty to Westminster? Not in 1707, not in 1807, not even in 2010 because the unionist parties combined to block the SNP’s attempt to hold one in 2010. Thanks to the SNP, the Scottish people will finally be given their first EVER chance to say whether they want to be in the union or not this term.
“In particular, Scots have never returned any more than 11 MPs to Westminster”
We returned 59 MPs last year, and used to return about 72 MPs in elections.
(Cheap shot, but I couldn’t resist.)
Your overriding point – that if Scotland wanted to be independent it would have sent a majority of SNP MPs to Westminster – is nonsense, because people vote for a multitude of issues, and just because independence is not their number one priority, it doesn’t mean they like being in the union. This is why there is actually a substantial amount of independence support amongst Labour supporters, despite the party itself being steadfastly opposed to independence, even though Home Rule was one of their founding principles. But if we take it to be true, then your logic – that if people want to become independent, they will vote for an SNP majority – dictates that the Scottish people clearly demonstrated this in May. Is that goood enough for you?
“By the same token, as regards matters within the EU’s competence Brussels is currently sovereign, but again this is only with the consent of the member states, and that consent could be withdrawn”
Indeed. But as Scotland is not a member state, then the UK could choose to withdraw consent, even if it is against Scottish wishes, because Scotand does not have the same sovereign rights as countries like Malta, Luxembourg and Cyprus.
“I doubt if many EU members have consulted their populations on joining, so to that extent if you applied the same standards to the EU as you do to the UK you’d effectively be claiming that the EU is fundamentally lacking in democratic legitimacy.”
Cheers for teeing me up for an open goal here.
1973: Ireland and Denmark (and Norway) hold referendums on joining the EEC
1975: the UK holds a referendum on remianing in the EEC
1994: Austria, Finland and Sweden (and Norway) hold referendums on joining the EU (as did the Ã…land Islands of Finland)
2003: Malta, Slovenia, Hungary, Lithuania, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Estonia and Latvia hold referendums on joining the EU
That means over half of the member states of the EU have held referendums on the issue. The others were all quite welcome to do so, in fact it’s strange that Cyprus, Romania and Bulgaria have been the only new entrants since Spain and Portugal in 1985 to forego a referendum on joining the EU. Croatia and Iceland, the two most likely new member states, are both to hold referendums on joining in the next year or so.
Incidentally, Greenland held a referendum and decided to leave the EU in 1985 due to fishing rights, despite still being within the Kingdom of Denmark. So you see, even Greenland has more control over its own affairs than Scotland does.
“If things are different now regarding Scotland’s relationship with the UK then that’s all well and good, but until Alex Salmond names a date then we can only really speculate and can’t really draw any definitive conclusions regarding democratic legitimacy.”
Well, he’s said it’ll happen in the latter half of this term, a position he has held since before the election. I’m not sure why the absence of an exact date stops us from drawing conclusions, because we still know that it WILL definitely be happening, something which was not the case until the SNP got a majority. But if this worries you, then presumably you’re not one of these people who insists the SNP should suddenly change their mind and have the referendum now?
“A Whatever the extent of shared sovereignty in the UK, it has the democratic consent of Scotland.”
No it doesn’t, as several of us have tried (in vain) to explain to you.
“B The SNP want an independent Scotland to share sovereignty within the EU.”
It wants Scotland to be on a level playing field with most other countries in Europe, yes.
“Mainstream SNP opinion seems to regard A as inherently bad, but B as inherently good.
But I can’t really see the difference in principle between the two.”
This is because you appear to be unable to understand the concept of an independent state, particularly one that has entered into a voluntary union with other countries where each country has the same rights and sovereignty as the others. Basically, I don’t think you even really understand the question you’re asking, so you have no hope of understanding the answer.
It’s quite simple, so I don’t understand why you’re trying to make things so confusing: under independence, Scotland would enjoy the same levels of sovereignty as virtually every other country in Europe. As it stands, it has less sovereignty than Greenland. And if that sovereignty wasn’t enough, then Scotland could follow the same routes as Norway, Switzerland, and many other nations in Europe with differing levels of integration with the EU. But whatever it did with its sovereignty, it would be Scotland’s choice, not London’s.
If you can’t understand that, then I give up.
#158 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 6:52 am
Well clearly we’re not going to agree here – you think I don’t understand your point, while I think you don’t understand my point, so no point in saying much more, and I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so.
But, for example, as regards my supposed ‘open goal’ on individual state referendums on EU memberships, indeed more have held polls than I thought, but if a significant number haven’t then applying the same argument as you do to Scotland vis-a-vis the UK then the EU must fundamentally lack democratic legitimacy.
Also, there are also the various treaties accruing significantly greater powers to Brussels – Nice, Masstricht, Lisbon, etc and also the matter of the euro – which might reasonably require a referendum, so that’s dozens of possibilities, so how many have there been in total? I suspect only a small minority.
For example, the UK had a referendum in 1975 on the Common Market, but given the amount of sovereignty transferred to Brussels since compared to the amount then, shouldn’t we have had another one, as indeed there’s been plenty of debate about in recent years.
So to that extent you’d agree that the UK’s EU membership lacks democratic legitimacy, a la what you claim regarding Scotland in the UK?
#159 by Colin on June 15, 2011 - 3:27 am
I believe in independence – but I’m not a nationalist, I’m a liberal. My reasons are that an independent Scotland should be able to protect individual liberties better than Westminster has.
I, being a non-nationalist, get exactly what Indy and the other nationalists have been posting regarding independence and what it means. It is an incredibly simple concept, as has been said.
I don’t think I will be reading the second post – reading the first one and all the comments that followed behind it was incredibly frustrating. Stuart, are you obfuscating simply for the sake of obfuscation – because after reading this from top to bottom I can totally understand why one might want to smash one’s head of the wall.
Lets hope the second post is better, but it’s not looking good at the moment. I’d never heard of the Planet Politics blog before – but this is certainly no showcase for me to go over there and start reading. I’ve not seen such poor reasoning and argumentation since I once argued with a creationist on another politics forum (needless to say that was a huge waste of time too).
#160 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 5:13 pm
By the same token, I won’t waste much time addressing your arguments then Colin, except to remind you of the Supreme Court debacle in relation to your first paragraph.
#161 by Don on June 15, 2011 - 9:10 pm
I think the belly aching joy most unionists are feeling over the actions of the Supreme court will be brought to an abrupt end once they announce the judgement on the Axa Insurance case going through as we speak.
When the Supreme court denies compensation to thousands of Scots suffering from abestos damaged lungs because the “human rights” of some corporations has been infringed, well, I’m sure you can imagine. Overturing legislation passed in Holyrood to protect people put at risk by their employers, yet you no doubt think Salmond is making a mountain out of a molehill.
The Supreme court is making itself the de facto last court of appeal in ALL aspects of Scots law. And even now, lying unionists deny this is happening.
#162 by Colin on June 16, 2011 - 12:32 am
An independent Scotland which would still have had to abide by ECHR whether it was the UKSC or ECtHR that decided it. So it’s really a moot point.
Furthermore – the aspects of Scots law that protect invidual freedom (corroboration, right to no inference from silence, no evidence of past convictions, no collateral evidence, no character evidence, etc) are protections that do not exist in English law and so the UKSP has not attacked these aspects in English law and would feel no need to defend them were they over-ridden in Scots law. The UKSC has not ruled that the infringements of these rights that exist in English law violate ECHR, so there is no reason they would protect them were they not to exist in Scots law – luckily they do.
Secondly, the lack of human rights in Cadder and Frazer (and in my opinion the UKSC came to the right decisions in both), is absolutely nothing in comparison to the violations of individual liberty that have come out of Westminster. To name but three of the biggest: 28 days detention, Terrorism Act stop and search powers and ID cards. Cadder and Frazer don’t even come close.
So yes, my first point still stands absolutely. An independent Scotland should be able to protect individual liberties better than Westminster has. Furthermore, not only will and independent Scotland do that – a devolved Scotland has managed to do it, but only within the degrees that it is allowed.
What is more likely to protect individual liberties? A country with a new, modern constitution firmly founded in ECHR or one with a parliament with an idea of parliamentary sovereignty (one that is alien to Scots law c.f. Lord Cooper in MacCormick v Lord Advocate) which can change the law on a whim if it so pleased. The answer is obvious. Any argument otherwise is simply argument for the sake of argument.
#163 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 8:41 am
That doesn’t appear to be the issue though. I don’t understand the case the insurance companies ae making but it appears to rest on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.
But the underlying issue which lawyers have got to get to grips with is that if the concept of ECHR becoms undermined by what the public would perceive as blatantly unfair decisions – and they would certainly regard any move to overturn the legislation on asbestos related diseases in favour of the insurance companies as absolutely unjust and an attack on the human rights of ordinary workers in favour of big business- then the place in our legal system of ECHR becomes untenable.
What is interesting to me is that the issues with ECHR – which exist in England as much as in Scotland – don’t seem to exist so strongly in other European countries. Could the reason for that be that the judiciary in those countries exercise a bit more common sense in its application?
#164 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 8:47 am
Colin said:
“An independent Scotland which would still have had to abide by ECHR whether it was the UKSC or ECtHR that decided it.”
Indeed, and that’s precisely the point of my post.
Nationalists seem to have an innate dislike of the UKSC but entirely the opposite regarding the ECHR, but as regards the substantive law would it have made much difference which one had decided Cadder and Fraser?
You say you’ve never seen such poor reasoning since [whatever] but you’re at least partially endorsing my case!!
And your statement also contains an inherent paradox.
#165 by James on June 16, 2011 - 9:45 am
Absolutely, and stepping back again could we not have fixed the underlying problems first rather than waiting for an (inevitably successful) appeal, whoever it was to?
#166 by Colin on June 16, 2011 - 4:39 pm
No – this is not what my point was about, you are shifting the goalposts and you know it.
I said (my first paragraph):
“I believe in independence – but I’m not a nationalist, I’m a liberal. My reasons are that an independent Scotland should be able to protect individual liberties better than Westminster has.”
To which you said:
“By the same token, I won’t waste much time addressing your arguments then Colin, except to remind you of the Supreme Court debacle in relation to your first paragraph.”
So, what was the point in what you said other than to imply that somehow the Scottish Parliament/Government/Independent Scotland wouldn’t be as good at protecting human rights as Westminster? Either you implied that or you were providing no response in your ‘reminder’ whatsoever.
As for substantive law, yes it would have made a difference for several reasons; not least of which is that currently the AXA Insurance case would not be going before the UKSC and the Cadder case would not have required emergency legislation if it has been (rightly) decided in the ECtHR. Instead, more thought out and measured legislation could have been passed in a longer time-period. Not to mention a third point, as the First Minister pointed out today, concerning slopping out, the UKSC allowed claims to be backdated until 1999 – no other jurisdiction would have to pay out millions for such a lengthy backdating – all, as was alluded to, who also had this problem had a one year backdating.
But this is really side-stepping my post and my point – an independent Scotland would protect civil liberties better than the current set-up. Your response to that claim was to say “Supreme Court debacle”, which was either implying that it wouldn’t or it wasn’t a response at all. Which was it? Don’t reply with words along the lines of ‘you are making my point exactly’, but instead, tell me what you meant by saying that? Do you think Westminster would do more to protect human rights in Scotland than an independent Scotland would or do you not?
Please tell me what this inherent paradox is.
#167 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 8:19 pm
Colin, the inherent paradox is that you said an ‘independent’ Scotland would still have to abide by decisions made by the ECHR, thus to that extent Scotland wouldn’t be independent.
If Alex Salmond says the UKSC is undermining the independence of the Scottish justice system then shouldn’t that complaint also apply in relation to ECHR?
My point in reminding you about the UKSC was clearly that the Scottish judicial system hadn’t protected individual liberties in relation to Cadder and Fraser – which you agree with – thus surely this doesn’t augur well in relation to an independent Scotland?
(I’m assuming that by ‘individual liberties’ you’re alluding to things like human rights, but if not then clearly the premise for my ‘reminder’ was false!)
Of course, the rest of what you say regarding an independent Scotland suggests otherwise, but might your vision of a brave new world of rights and liberties in an independent Scotland be slightly misplaced?
For example, some of the comments and proposals from Kenny MacAskill hardly seem consistent with your thesis, and indeed the various comments made by Alex Salmond in the Holyrood Magazine article hardly seem encouraging in that regard either; for example, he seems to laud the suggestion that the ECHR has or would have come to a less liberal conclusion than UKSC in rlelation to some of the decided cases.
And by ‘individual liberties’ are you also alluding to wider matters such as the smoking ban?
Excuse my cynicism on these matters, but of course it’s all to easy to look at such matters in an idealistic fashion, but when push comes to shove an realpolitik and the practicalities of office impedes then things are often a bit different – Barack Obama and Guantanamo Bay being an obvious international example in this regard.
For example, in the Scottish context many pro-liberty, pro-rights advocates seem to be a bit disappoinetd with the direction taken by the SNP Government on some matters (although I wouldn’t pretend to be an expert and don’t have your own legal knowledge).
And when I mentioned ‘substantive law’ I meant the convention and the basic interpretation of it rather than anything wider, which of course may not accord with your more legalistic portrayal of the term.
And, lest anyone should interpret my remark about not wasting my time engaging with your arguments out of context, that of course was in response to the rather puerile comments in your opening post.
#168 by douglas clark on June 15, 2011 - 7:19 am
Stuart Winton,
You say:
It is worth pointing out that the vast majority of Scots, when asked in opinion polls, do want a referendum, whichever way they wish to vote in it.
But the point you attribute to me was never my point. Mine is that the Scottish people have acquiesced in that subvention of sovereignty, mainly through deception and lies on the part of those that benefit from a continuing union.
Now it has become an issue, notably for those unionists that appear to believe the UK is indivisible under God, forgetting about the the history of Ireland because it is ‘inconvenient’ or not what ‘polite unionistas’ like to discuss.
It has been useful discussing this with you. Your position is simply that sovereignty resides at Westminster and with MPs. Whether you would take my characterisation of unionistas personally or not is up to you. You do appear to have no defensible position of your own so it is like discussing stuff with a nihilist, which appears to be the theme of your piece.
Frankly, you are a bit like the Spanish Armada in this poem:
DRAKE he’s in his hammock an’ a thousand mile away,
(Capten, art tha sleepin’ there below?)
Slung atween the round shot in Nombre Dios Bay,
An’ dreamin’ arl the time o’ Plymouth Hoe.
Yarnder lumes the island, yarnder lie the ships, 5
Wi’ sailor lads a-dancin’ heel-an’-toe,
An’ the shore-lights flashin’, an’ the night-tide dashin’
He sees et arl so plainly as he saw et long ago.
Drake he was a Devon man, an’ ruled the Devon seas,
(Capten, art tha sleepin’ there below?), 10
Rovin’ tho’ his death fell, he went wi’ heart at ease,
An’ dreamin’ arl the time o’ Plymouth Hoe,
“Take my drum to England, hang et by the shore,
Strike et when your powder’s runnin’ low;
If the Dons sight Devon, I’ll quit the port o’ Heaven, 15
An’ drum them up the Channel as we drummed them long ago.”
Drake he’s in his hammock till the great Armadas come,
(Capten, art tha sleepin’ there below?),
Slung atween the round shot, listenin’ for the drum,
An’ dreamin’ arl the time o’ Plymouth Hoe. 20
Call him on the deep sea, call him up the Sound,
Call him when ye sail to meet the foe;
Where the old trade’s plyin’ an’ the old flag flyin’,
They shall find him, ware an’ wakin’, as they found him long ago.
I look forward to part 2. You’ll really have to up your game if you aren’t to go down all guns blazing 😉
#169 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 7:37 am
Douglas, I’m too thick-skinned these days to go down “all guns blazing” ;0)
Or too thick per se, according to your namesake on here!!!
#170 by Doug Daniel on June 15, 2011 - 2:19 pm
Actually Stuart, I never once said you were thick. I simply said that when someone is unable to understand a simple concept, it is generally either because they do not have the intellectual capacity (okay, they’re thick), or they are purposefully missing the point because of some ulterior motive.
It’s interesting that you’ve focussed completely on the former, because when I wrote that, I had you down as the latter. However, you’ve managed to convince me that I was giving credit where it wasn’t due, and for that I apologise.
#171 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 5:17 pm
Again thanks for the kind words, Doug, which certainly help confirm my scepticism regarding Scottish Nationalism.
Glad to confirm your prejudices.
#172 by Stuart Winton on June 15, 2011 - 7:34 am
Indy said:
“On the point about the Supreme Court. I note that today the Supreme Court is hearing a case brought by AXA General Insurance Limited and others trying to overturn the Damages (Asbestos-related Conditions) (Scotland) Act 2009 on the grounds that somehow or other it undermines the insurance companies’ human rights. Not so much ambulance-chasing in that case as hearse-chasing. The more of this kind of thing that goes on the more the SNP is going to be vindicated in my view.”
But that’s the fault of the human rights jurisprudence rather than the Supreme Court per se. How would the case differ substantively if it was heard in Strasbourg instead?
As with Mr Salmond and Mr MacAskill – and see the former’s interview in this week’s Holyrood Magazine – you seem to be trying to blame the Supreme Court for perceived shortcomings in the human rights convention.
(Sorry, forgot this one yesterday!)
#173 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 3:23 pm
“Whether the Damages (Asbestos-related Conditions) (Scotland) Act 2009 (“the 2009 Actâ€) infringes the appellant insurance companies’ right under Article 1 of Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights and is thereby outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament by virtue of section 29(2)(d) of the Scotland Act 1998 (“the 1998 Actâ€);
(2) Whether the Court of Session as part of its supervisory jurisdiction may review and reduce legislation passed by the Scottish Parliament on grounds other than those set out in the 1998 Act;
(3) If such review is available, whether the 2009 Act is invalid on irrationality grounds.”
Facts
In June 2009 the Damages (Asbestos-related Conditions) (Scotland) Act 2009 came into force, having been enacted by the Scottish Parliament. It provides that asbestos-related pleural plaques and certain other asbestos-related conditions constitute personal injury which is actionable under Scots law. Pleural plaques are physical changes in tissue which lines the lungs and the chest wall. They do not actuate or contribute to potentially fatal conditions such as lung cancer, mesothelioma or asbestosis, but their existence evidences significant previous exposure to asbestos, which of itself represents a greatly increased risk of contracting such diseases. The Appellants are insurance companies whose business includes employers’ liability insurance policies. They brought a petition for judicial review seeking an order that the 2009 Act is unlawful. The petition was dismissed by the Outer House of the Court of Session and, on appeal, by the Inner House. The 1st Respondent represents the Scottish Ministers, the 2nd Respondent represents the United Kingdom Government and the 3rd to 10th Respondents are individuals who have been diagnosed with pleural plaques.”
So that is the case.
When I googled Article 1 of Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights this is what it said:
“Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.
The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions or penalties.”
I have no idea how a case can be made in those terms but it seems to me that the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament – as restricted by Westminster – may be rather important.
#174 by douglas clark on June 15, 2011 - 7:57 am
Stuart @ 89,
(Time out.)
It is verging on ludicrous that companies can assume that they are real people. I cannot, for the life of me, see how any court, anywhere can countenance that action. Human Rights apply to AXA General Insurance Limited?
No they don’t.
#175 by douglas clark on June 15, 2011 - 8:00 am
Oh, and btw, if you do want a smiley replace the O with a –
It works for me 🙂
#176 by David Gray on June 15, 2011 - 9:29 am
I am already tiring of this debate. I don’t really care whether or not we have influence in the EU or world affairs. Better question to ask first is surely do we want influence?
I acknowledge that some of the issues raised need to be discussed – perhaps most importantly of all the issue of currency and the level of national debt that Scotland should be proscribed.
The more fundamental point I want to raise is can independence improve the lives of Scots. Self-determination of our own affairs is being made out to be the answer to all our problems. To be honest, although independence would lead to a great change in how Scotland is governed, I doubt it will greatly improve our prospects in facing down the challenges this country faces. We will still face the same problems that the majority of OECD and western countries do; issues regarding growing inequality, youth unemployment, ageing populations, growing competition from emerging powers, drug trafficking etc.
Issues regarding are political process are not unimportant. I suspect the debate will continue to follow the narrative as shown here. In the meantime, I just worry that other pressing issues will not get the attention they deserve.
#177 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 11:57 am
Yes we do want influence. I hate to raise the issue of the fishing industry again as it is seen as a shortbread tin argument but it is the classic example of why having the ability to represent yourself in international bodies like the EU matters.
As a consequence of the way in which the UK has consistently handled fisheries negotiations the Scottish fishing fleet has been comprehensively and thoroughly shafted. We started with a healthy and sustainable fishery which, thanks to the CFP, has been over-fished to the point of crisis. The Scottish fishing fleet has paid the price for this even though they have not caused the problem. As injustices go it is a massively obvious one and a scar on every single fishing community in the land – and not just in Scotland, the English, Welsh and Northern Irish fishing fleets have also been shafted. But the vast bulk of the UK fishing fleet is Scottish so it has been left to the SNP to lead the fight on behalf of all of them..
Why has this happened? Because of the political interests of the UK, It is a matter of public record that Ted Heath’s Government considered the UK’s fishing interests to be “expendable” in negotations with Europe. And they have been expendable ever since. So a whole industry has been sacrificed because it suited the political interests of the UK Government. In UK terms maybe that does not matter – in UK terms perhaps the fishing industry is expendable as it was not a major part of the UK economy. But it was a major part of the Scottish economy. And any Scottish government of any political hue would not under any circumstances have regarded it as expendable.
So it’s a fairly clear lesson. If you don’t represemnt yourself, if you are content to stay on the sidelines and let someone else represent you based on their own interests rather than yours, you will always run the risk of being shafted.
#178 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 7:15 pm
As you are aware, its not been designed to deliberately shaft the Scottish fleet – its shafted the fleets if every port.
I think it would be more accurate to say that the vast bulk of the remaining UK fleet is Scottish, as ports such as Grimsby used to have massive fleets.
And given that the fishing fleets of every corner of the UK (including England), has suffered the same fate, isnt it at least slightly possible that this wasnt due to a lack of influence of Scotland?
#179 by Alex Buchan on June 15, 2011 - 7:34 pm
Grimsby’s fishing fleet was decimated by the God War with Iceland in the 1970s not by the CFP, so your argument doesn’t follow. It is Scottish fleet that have suffered most from the CFP, fishing was also proportionally a bigger part of the Scottish economy than in England so Scotland had a far bigger stake in the outcome of fisheries negotiations. Coming from Peterhead I am more than aware of the magnitude of the collapse of the Scottish fishing fleet and its consequences.
#180 by John Ruddy on June 15, 2011 - 9:06 pm
I didnt say that Grimsby’s fleet was decimated by the Common Fisheries policy – merely that Grimsby used to have a very large fishing fleet, so the fact that the Scottish fleet makes up the bulk of the UK fleet is relatively recent, and that since fleets all around the country have reduced (by various policies and/or neglect) then its not something thats been deliberately aimed at Scotland.
#181 by Alex Buchan on June 15, 2011 - 8:11 pm
I should add that during the 1980s and 1990s Peterhead wasn’t just the main fishing port in Britain it was the largest fishing port for white fish in the whole of the EU. Today the harbour is mainly empty whereas before it was packed. Quite a lot of young fishermen moved to the Irish Republic where the fishing industry was growing courtesy of the CFP.
If we can’t agree that there should have been greater Scottish access to decision making in Europe in a case as clear cut as this then there is something very wrong in political discussion in Scotland. The reason the Scottish fleet was at a disadvantage was because the UK government used concessions on fishing as a bargaining chip to get concessions elsewhere on policy areas more important to the UK as a whole.
Those opposed to Scottish independence need to own these decisions as flowing from being part of Britain, they need to argue how they could be remedied given that such things follows inexorably from being subsumed in a wider member state. In my view, outside of independence, there is no way a territory like Scotland can safeguard an industry if the UK government sees it as a trade off in negotiations on other issues seen as more important to its national interest as a whole.
#182 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 8:48 am
Yes I agree the while UK fiushing fleet was shafted – Inever said otherwise. Indeed I made the point that Alex Salmond’s Private Members Bill was supported by MPs from every party in the House of Commons.
The point is that the UK Government was prepared to give up the fight on the CFP because it was not suffiicently important in a UK context. If Scotland had been an independent country that would not have happened because the Scottish fishing industry was much bigger in the context of the Scottish economy than the UK fishing industry was in the context of the UK econoimy.
#183 by Allan on June 15, 2011 - 7:45 pm
“I hate to raise the issue of the fishing industry again as it is seen as a shortbread tin argument ”
Actually, its not. I suspect that a lot of people see it as a rubbish negociator issue. That it is not seen as an independance issue is down to the SNP’s not very good media management issues (c/f GARL, Megrahi etc etc).
#184 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 11:23 am
What a bizarre comment – unless of course you have never ventured outwith the Central belt.
#185 by douglas clark on June 15, 2011 - 10:23 am
David Gray,
Perhaps you should join the SNP? They appear to be the only party not distracted by an independence debate.
#186 by David Gray on June 15, 2011 - 4:01 pm
The problem is I don’t think the SNP even know what independence would mean. Devo-max, independence-lite… What ever happened to separation?
Besides I am very wary of some of the SNP’s policies, despite voting for them. In particular, I find a 5 year council tax freeze unsustainable. I think they will have to break their promise on no compulsory redundancies. Furthermore, I dislike the impetus of trying to reduce Scotland’s corporation tax rate. I don’t think that policy is very helpful in trying to reduce income equalities. Plus, I worry that it might turn Scotland into something of a tax haven. (Mind you I will concede that in many regards the UK is already one) I had given my list vote to the Greens in the hope that it would at least try and force open a more honest debate on finance, than the farcical one that occured in the recent campaign.
#187 by Indy on June 15, 2011 - 4:18 pm
The SNP knows exactly what independence means.
It means that the Scottish Parliament would be sovereign and the Scottish Government would take on the responsibilities currently exercised in Scotland by the UK Government – such as control of the economy, tax, foreign relations, broadcasting, the welfare system etc.
Scotland would also gain the power to represent herself in the international community through bodies such as the EU, UN etc.
It’s very simple. It does not mean separation. No country is truly separate from every other country these days – we live in an inter-dependent world.
That’s what I meant when I said the SNP doesn’t want some new form of super-independence unlike anything that has been seen before. We will be happy with the kind of bog standard independence that everyone else has.
#188 by John Ruddy on June 17, 2011 - 6:57 pm
“The SNP knows exactly what independence means.”
i should hope so too – after all they’ve been thinking about it since 1934 – and they were planning to have a referendum on it last year.
Perhaps they could let the rest of us in on the secret? Or is the plan just to rile everyone up about perceived slights against Scotland to ensure a yes vote regardless?
#189 by Alec Macph on June 16, 2011 - 12:11 am
>> I regard this as profound nonsense-can anyone seriously believe that an independent Scotland could not have negotiated a better deal over fishing than Heath did?
Given that Britain then had some 1/5 of the population of the EEC area, economic and military clout and all that… no.
>> The island os Ireland has 15 (FIFTEEEN-12 for the Irish Republic and 3 for the North).
Others might see this as a problem with the gravy train which is the European Parliament. The last thing we need is more hacks on the make getting in on tiny turn outs.
#190 by Alec Macph on June 16, 2011 - 10:33 am
>> The more of this kind of thing that goes on the more the SNP is going to be vindicated in my view.â€
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, Indy. I remember your and others’ attempts to defend James McIntock’s “human rights” and the duty of Mike Weir intervening on someone who wasn’t his constituent on SU’s blog.
As Stuart says, this is down to vagaries of the Human Rights Act, and all Salmond is doing is beclowing himself. McCluskey was practicing law when his criticis were still at school, ffs! Craighead was practicing law when Salmond, MacAskill and all were still at school.
No evidence has been offered as to why Strasbourg would have ruled in Holyrood’s favour. No argument has been offered as to why it’d be preferable to be over-ruled by Strasbourg, with non Scots law experts and no historical relationships with the Scots systems, than by the UK Supreme Court.
These are very delicate cases – not least Nat Fraser – and anyone turning it into a boorish rant against London deserves to have it blow-up in their faces.
#191 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 12:35 pm
I don’t have any issues with protecting human rights or indeed with ECHR – and I don’t agree that the current issues are all down to the vagaries of the Human Rights Act, I think it is more down to the vagaries of the Scotland Act in creating a situation that was not intended.
I did not know for example that no other jurisdiction gives unlimited liability in human rights cases until I read Alex Salmond’s interview in Holyrood. How ridiculous!
And I totally and utterly agree with Alex Salmond’s comments about giving so much public money to the likes of William Beggs to raise case after case. Whereas all too often ordinary citizens cannot get legal aid at all to help them with their legal problems. It all adds up to a system which is unbalanced and unfair.
#192 by Alec Macph on June 16, 2011 - 1:43 pm
Indy, it really is beholden on you and anyone who thinks Scotland’s pater familias is conducting an appropriate conversation to explain why Strasbourg would have ruled in Holyrood’s favour and why is would be acceptable to be over-ruled by it and not a UK-based institution such as the Supreme Court.
In the case of the former, until an argument is offered, it is simple wishful thinking. In the case of the latter, if – as you have now admitted – you think this is acceptable, then you show yourself to be motivated more out of boorish anti-UK/Westminster/London sentiment than altruism. For all the cant we’ve heard about the SNP offering a positive campaign, this guff is profoundly negative.
Change is not intrinsically good.
D’you get coffee and bikkies after the 14 minutes you spent discussing governance?
Have you never heard of the concept of the law being blind? Your personal feelings about an individual mean… how to put the delicately?… naff all with regards to the protection s/he is entitled to from the law.
It is perfectly reasonable to ask to a debate about the Human Rights Act – and, despite his dismal slooping to McCluskey, Salmond appears unaware/caring that McCluskey has been highly critical of it – but this is not what you’re saying, as I think you know deep down.
Salmond’s comments have been unacceptable. He is not a local councillor or two-bit blogger. He’s the First Minister. He is to be expected to conduct him responsibly and maturely at all times, and his pathetic special pleading now that the Holyrood Magazine interview was a fortnight ago when feeling were raw – how so? – or that MacAskill’s description of the Supreme Court’s knowledge of Scots law being what could be found in an Edinburgh Fringe event as “colourful†suggest that he realizes just how badly he has over-reached himself; but, being Alex Salmond, doesn’t have the humility to admit to this.
Hahahahaha! Is this the same Beggs who was _denied_ an appeal to the Supreme Court?
Your wriggling could just as easily be used in response to the preoccupation about Guantanamo Bay. Okay, its supporters would say, some innocent or hapless men have been caught-up in it, but on balance there are some of the vilest people in the world there.
Or the case of Mike Weir intervening to held shield James McIntock from the consequences of his actions, which I note you aint responded to.
~alec
#193 by Indy on June 16, 2011 - 3:05 pm
I suggest you read Iain MacWhirters’s piece in the Herald today – or Ian Bell’s piece in the Sunday Herald from a few weeks ago to spare going over old ground.
I agree with them.
#194 by Alec Macph on June 16, 2011 - 3:27 pm
Why, are they writing Tolstoy?
This seems apposite for your latest response.
#195 by Alec Macph on June 16, 2011 - 11:45 am
>> To name but three of the biggest: 28 days detention, Terrorism Act stop and search powers and ID cards. Cadder and Frazer don’t even come close.
They were/are backed by legislation. Cadder and Fraser have been found to have contravened legislation. Plus, if Fraser is found not guilty, I suspect he’d beg to differ that his wrongful conviction and imprisonment paled into insignificance against the possibility of your having to flash a card with your name on it.
I approve of ID cards, but don’t think society will collapse without them. Yet, they are the _norm_ in post-industrial societies. Get a grip.
The civil liberties you refer to are based on early 19th Century reactionary politics against the encroaching Industrial Revolution. Not a good authority to appeal to.
~alec
#196 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 16, 2011 - 4:32 pm
My wifes country of Finland,that has the same poulation as Scotland (5 million) has more influence in the EU than Scotland.I would settle for that.I dont know where this writer gets his facts fromScotland cannot speak for itself as Scotland,unlike all other independent natios in Europe.Independence will end its seperation from the rest of the world
#197 by Stuart Winton on June 16, 2011 - 8:47 pm
Bill, I wouldn’t doubt your claim that Finland has more influence in the EU than Scotland does, since you’re comparing a direct member with an indirect one.
But my point is that Scotland has more influence as a member of the UK than Finland has as a member of the EU.
But some seem to consider more influence in the context of the former union less good than less influence in the context of the latter union!!
#198 by Angus McLellan on June 16, 2011 - 10:16 pm
Why stop at comparing the relative influence Scotland and Finland over the larger political entity. What about influence in the opposite direction? The answer there is that whether the influence is considered to be a good thing or a bad one, there’s no doubt that Westminster has more over Scotland than Brussels has over Finland. Indeed, in light of the doctrine of parliamentary supremacy, Westminster’s control over Scotland is theoretically absolute.
#199 by Stuart Winton on June 17, 2011 - 10:25 am
All very true Angus.
However, my point is that whatever sovereignty is ceded, this is done with the democratic consent of the people.
For example, London decides monetary policy for the whole of the UK, while Frankfurt decides monetary policy for the whole of the eurozone.
This is done via the democratic consent of the people. Of course, that consent is demonstrated in a variety of ways, for example referendums, or elections fought on major issues such as EU membership.
In the UK context the Scottish people have never demonstrated any obvious desire to secede from the UK. Obviously this has never been formally tested, but election results, opinion polls and surveys suggest that this is the case.
Equally, last month’s result has been construed as a desire for Scottish independence. This construction is clearly disputed by many – including, it would seem, Alex Salmond, at present at least – but nevertheless most seem to agree that the result demonstrates a desire for a referendum on the issue at the very least.
Of course, it’s all far from perfect, but that’s the nature of democracy.
For example, not all the EU states and eurozone members have formally consulted their populations on membership, yet fundamental aspects of sovereignty have been ceded to Brussels.
Indeed, the UK has never formally consulted the people on the significant accrual of powers to Brussels since the Common Market referendum in 1975, and in effect we’ve relied on general election results as a proxies for referendums; in particular, if the British people had wanted to draw a halt to the increased surrender of sovereignty to Brussels then they could have demonstrated this by electing a UKIP government.
Of course, there has been plenty of debate as regards referendums in that regard in recent years, but democracy isn’t perfect.
Thus we don’t have a referendum on Scotland’s membership of the UK every couple of years, but on the other hand Scotland’s relationship with the UK isn’t the same as Tibet’s relationship with China.
#200 by Alec Macph on June 16, 2011 - 8:47 pm
And I don’t. You walked into that one.
#201 by Stuart Winton on June 17, 2011 - 1:07 am
Reasonable Nat wrote:
So if you consider opinion polls and surveys so conclusive then you’ll presumably agree with my claim that such evidence, inter alia, demonstrates that Scotland consents to pooling sovereignty at Westminster, which others seem to be disputing?
On the other hand, it’s surely a bit much to conclude that because of opinion polls and the like Westminster is guilty of anti-democratic behaviour when the six powers were barely mentioned during the campaign, perhaps because Alex Salmond knew that instead of being used as crude rhetoric and posturing they might have been examined in greater detail and thus found wanting.
For example, a professor claimed in the Scotsman this week that there’s little evidence to suggest that the SNP’s corporation tax proposals would stimulate economic activity more than marginally, thus leaving a big revenue black hole in Scotland’s budget.
And of course the left normally portrays corporation tax reductions as being merely for the benefit of business; John Mason might as well have asked Alex Salmond in last week’s FMQs if zillionaire supporter Jim McColl wanted a corporation tax reduction for his businesses rather than the question he did ask!!
Thus to that extent the SNP’s proposals might not have looked so rosy if they actually had been scrutinised during the campaign rather than being kept under wraps, a la independence generally.
Indeed, there was an interesting piece on Newsnicht the other night about how people’s views on policy matters changed fundamentally when they were examined at a level slightly greater than the soundbite.
Thus your conclusions regarding these matters are surely overegging the pudding. Voters elected the pro-Calman parties overwhelmingly to Westminster last year, and as you’ll know the sophistication of the Scottish electorate means that last month’s result was based on devolved matters, hence the lack of discussion on the six powers during the campaign.
You seem to be elevating the results of surveys and opinion polls over those of formal democracy.
#202 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 17, 2011 - 7:40 am
The argument that Scotland within the UK has more influence in the EU than an independent Finland,contains several logical flaws.One of them is that Scotland cannot speak on its own behalf about matters that are important to its population.Fishing has already been cited as one example where a Scottish minister needs to sit outside a meeting while landlocked countries discuss fishing.Long before the EU,we were aware of the problems of having no adequate voice within the UK.Being non independent within the EU seems like a double whammy.
#203 by Stuart Winton on June 17, 2011 - 10:00 am
Bill, I haven’t said anything directly about Scotland’s *current* influence in the EU, although very many of the comments above seem to assume I have. The point is about Scotland’s current influence in the UK and comparing that to Scotland’s future influence in the EU as a hypothetical member.
Think about it in terms of the currency. Scotland is currently a member of the ‘poundzone’.
An independent Scotland could well join the eurozone in future.
In the first case monetary policy is decided by the Bank of England.
In the second case monetary policy is decided by the European Central Bank.
In both cases Scottish influence in clearly limited, but do you really think it would be greater in the Eurpean context than in the British context?
But some seem to have an innate preference for the European Union rather than United Kingdom in this regard.
Maybe this is because the in the latter the Bank of *England* administers the system rather than consideration of things like actual influence and economic efficacy.
#204 by Angus McLellan on June 17, 2011 - 12:14 pm
As before, this seems to be turning a complex position into a simple choice. Things seem more nuanced to me, with more actors involved, more options to choose from.
Today monetary policy is determined by the Bank of England and the UK Government. The power to set interest rates can be withdrawn as easily as it was given so that the UK Government has a veto.
Under “Devomax” most aspects of monetary policy would be determined by the Bank of England and the UK Government. The very limited powers exercised by the Scottish Government are subject to UK Government veto as too are the decisions of the Bank of England.
Under independence with sterling .the Bank of England makes the majority of decisions with the UK Government exercising less power and the Scottish Government more than in the previous case. The UK Government may constrain the decisions of the Scottish Government and may continue to exercise veto power over the decisions of the Bank of England.
Under independence with the euro, the ECB has the same degree of control which the Bank of England had in the previous case. The powers exercised by the Scottish Government are still constrained, but now principally by decisons made in Berlin. Germany also exercises very great influence over the decisons of the ECB.
To return to the issue of influence, perhaps this is the wrong way to look at things. England represents well over 80% of the UK economy. The London, South-East and East of England NUTS2 regions alone represent half of the English economy. If the electorally significant West Midlands are included, this rises to almost half of the UK economy. It seems to me that whoever sets monetary policy for the UK must focus on this area for good economic reasons. This isn’t Londoncentric bias, although such a thing surely exists. It’s simply a product of the economic, human and political geography of the UK. Scotland may be considered, just as Wales or North-West England may be, but what’s best for Scotland cannot – and in fairness, should not – be a major factor in setting UK monetary policy.
#205 by Stuart Winton on June 17, 2011 - 7:49 pm
Can’t really disagree with your final paragraph, Angus, but the point is that by the same token the ECB will prioritise the needs of France and Germany rather than Scotland if it joined the eurozone.
Thus in the ‘poundzone’, in crude population terms Scotland has more than 10% of the population, while in the eurozone it would be around 1%. Therefore extending your argument means that Scotland would be of even less relevance in the eurozone than in the poundzone.
Moreover, the UK has had significantly longer to create the conditions of economic convergence necessary for a single currency, whereas Europe has enjoyed a significantly shorter period, hence the current tensions between the disparate national economies of the eurozone.
But the crux of the original blogpost – the wood of which seems to have gotten lost behind the trees – is the automatic dislike of Scotland in the poundzone and a preference for Scotland in the eurozone, with it being even less relevant in the latter than the former.
Hence this seems to be based on crude emotional arguments associated with Scottish nationalism rather than real questions of influence and economics.
And I can’t really disagree wth your oppening assertion that the choice is more nuanced, but again that wasn’t disputed in my original post (indeed such arguments were explicity recognised) which was essentially asking why some regard pooling sovereignty in the UK context as inherently bad while pooling sovereignty in the EU context is seen as inherently good.
#206 by Angus McLellan on June 18, 2011 - 12:27 pm
Events (dear boy, events) have overtaken the “crux” of your article. And they had done so when you wrote it. Current thinking on the future of independent Scotland seems not to involve adopting the euro at an early date. You should be relieved, if not pleased, but apparently not.
And there are two points I take exception with. Firstly, it hardly encourages debate if you dismiss some arguments as crude emotion and contrast them with the (high-minded? rational?) real questions. No doubt there have been many fascinating epistemological studies of voters’ political belief systems, but I think we can assume that sentiment, feeling, emotion, or whatever you want to call it, crude or sophisticated, plays a very large part in the process. The second problem is that it seems to require a degree of equivocation to describe the status quo as an example of pooled or shared sovereignty in the same sense that membership in the EU would be. The Westminster model does not admit that sovereignty can be shared, but instead it is delegated for so long as it is Parliament’s wish to do so. The EU, NATO, ECB, WTO, UN, NAFTA, … models of shared sovereignty are quite different in that respect.
#207 by Stuart Winton on June 19, 2011 - 10:59 pm
Angus McLellan wrote:
“Events (dear boy, events) have overtaken the “crux†of your article. And they had done so when you wrote it. Current thinking on the future of independent Scotland seems not to involve adopting the euro at an early date. You should be relieved, if not pleased, but apparently not.â€
Indeed, and the article acknowledged that change in stance and also alluded that the emotional argument had perhaps been superseded by something more economically rigorous.
If that hasn’t been fully stated in subsequent posts then this was because I was merely trying to illustrate a particular point. In the context of the thread as a whole it probably makes a bit more sense.
“And there are two points I take exception with. Firstly, it hardly encourages debate if you dismiss some arguments as crude emotion and contrast them with the (high-minded? rational?) real questions. No doubt there have been many fascinating epistemological studies of voters’ political belief systems, but I think we can assume that sentiment, feeling, emotion, or whatever you want to call it, crude or sophisticated, plays a very large part in the process.â€
Well clearly there’s an element of simplification in debates of this kind, but I’m sure that most have the sense to assume that the argument was posited in general terms without infering that everyone who adopts a certain position does so for precisely the same reasons.
“The second problem is that it seems to require a degree of equivocation to describe the status quo as an example of pooled or shared sovereignty in the same sense that membership in the EU would be. The Westminster model does not admit that sovereignty can be shared, but instead it is delegated for so long as it is Parliament’s wish to do so. The EU, NATO, ECB, WTO, UN, NAFTA, … models of shared sovereignty are quite different in that respect.â€
Again no two scenarios are precisely the same, but until Westminster does something to thwart the will of the Scottish people then we’ll just have to agree to differ on that one.
#208 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 17, 2011 - 4:38 pm
Yes Stuart I do believe that Scotlands influence as an non independent nation in the EU is less influential than an independent nation within the EU.I am in a Finnish summer house with lousy internet access so I dont have the patience to deconstruct your argument.What I would say is that Scotland within the UK is invisable within the EU,unlike my wifes nation of Finland
#209 by Stuart Winton on June 17, 2011 - 7:55 pm
Again, Bill, the argument is not about Scotland’s current influence in the EU, which of course is excercised indirectly via the conduit of the UK.
To that extent I don’t really disagree with what you say.
But it would depend on the circumstances.
For example, as things stand if there’s a UK consensus on an EU matter then Scotland probably exerts more influences via the UK.
If Scotland disagrees with the UK on an EU matter currently then clearly it has no say at all in the EU context, and might have more say as an independent country.
But clearly as a small independent country Scotland would have limited influence in the EU. Prima facie rUK would have greater influence.
#210 by Alex Buchan on June 17, 2011 - 5:37 pm
We could be discussing all this in earnest sooner than we imagined as Jacob Rees Mogg has just tabled an amedment to the Scotland Bill inserting an independence referendum. He is a taste of the man: arguing against the transfer of the Crown Estates where he says that Scotland has England to thank for having property laws among other things. http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=7850&st=20:09:41.3570000
#211 by Dr Bill Reynolds on June 18, 2011 - 6:25 pm
Stuart,a non independent Scotland has zero influence in the EU an d is the invisable nation.Since I am in a poor internet area I cannot debatew this properly.
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