During the last Holyrood session, when the referendum was something the SNP could strive for without fear, the Yoonyonisht Conshpirashy (please do read that in Alex Neil’s voice) were consistently agin it, all apart from that glorious moment of Wendyism.
As some in Labour now acknowledge, the idea of Bringing It On might have been cack-handed in its implementation – OK, it was hand-deep in cack – but, the whispers go, it’s the only thing that could possibly have saved Labour in May, and possibly saved the Yoonyon when the time now comes, as come it will.
But Wendyism ceased to be, and Holyrood’s Yoonyonishts reverted to anti-referendumism. Odd, and I’d say ill-advised. The polls then were clear – those who were against having a referendum were those who would win it, while those (apparently) pushing for it were those who would lose. Surely everyone was wrong?
In that last session, bold moves to demonstrate the potency of an SNP administration, and by implication, the opportunities of an independent Scotland, could be scuppered by a Parliament on a knife-edge, a situation which gave a limited (but well-used) bully pulpit for Scotland’s theoretically weakest ever First Minister. A Tory government, that notorious recruiting sergeant for independence, was merely a worrying prospect back in 2008.
Once the SNP’s wafer-thin plurality became a substantial (by Holyrood standards) majority, everyone’s timing rhetoric shifted completely. The day before she resigned, for example, Annabel Goldie taunted Alex Salmond to “take a brave pill” and signed up to Wendyism. Her colleague Liz Smith even used the dread phrase itself. Alistair Darling belatedly followed suit – “why not hold it now?“. Nick Clegg, that political black spot incarnate, refused to rule out Westminster setting up their own Scottish independence referendum. I’m sure that would end well.
And yet, and yet, The Great Puddin’, despite his clear “We Are The Masters Now” moment of triumph, committed during the election to a 2015 or 2016 vote, and apparently remains so committed. At Holyrood, it matters not a jot what anyone else thinks. That’s his schedule, and a Presiding Officer drawn from SNP ranks will, on the schedule of Holyrood’s theoretically most powerful ever First Minister alone, consider the legitimacy of an SNP Bill before it goes to a Committee with an SNP majority, and then to a Chamber with an SNP majority.
On one level it’s hysterical. The holders of the anti-democratic position that we simply shouldn’t ever have a referendum all lost seats and votes, and then still thought it their place to try to dictate the schedule themselves during the aftermath while simultaneously falling over each other to resign first. Everyone deserves their view on the referendum, but surely the result tells anyone with ears that a vote will be held when the SNP alone decides to bring it on?
And yet surely everyone’s still wrong about timing?
If the SNP wants to win this referendum – and let us assume that almost all of them do – holding it at the fag end of Holyrood’s first No Excuses Session is a chronic mistake. There’s always a cost to governing, a price for each decision. Whether it’s right or wrong people will disagree with you. Some quick wins like minimum pricing for alcohol won’t take them very far.
By the end of the session the SNP will have indeed implemented a series of destructive cuts to public services. When the Sun endorsed a Salmond administration, it was in part because, to quote the paper itself, the SNP are “tackling the economic crisis head-on by cutting public spending faster than anywhere else in the UK“. That’s going to hurt.
Patrick got rubbished as ‘negative’ for pointing out that the SNP promises Scandinavian levels of public services with American levels of taxation. The choice has been made, though. Council Tax will be retained and frozen, and token supermarket levy aside, none of the various immediate options for additional revenue will be taken. We’re going to be in Kansas, not Copenhagen.
What’s more, SNP Ministers appear determined to stick to their vague and unconvincing formulation for the Question: that the people of Scotland be asked to approve the idea of opening negotiations with Westminster about independence. As Iain MacWhirter says, what kind of independence will it be? How will the people be consulted on what they want? Involved in a way the National Conversation never did, just like Calman never did? There are apparently no plans of that sort, although I’d like to be proved wrong. If what’s asked feels like a politicians’ bounce (like the AV vote or Australia’s republic referendum) it’ll be lost.
If the SNP thinks they can postpone the key decisions (currency, defence, a formal constitution for post-independence Scotland) until after the referendum, then the campaign will be all about uncertainty. A series of open goals will be presented for Jim Murphy or whoever fronts the No campaign. In favour of the monarchy? The SNP can’t guarantee that as Scotland’s long-term post-independence settlement. In favour of a republic? That’s not what’s on offer, chum. Think signing up to the Euro as it implodes might be a bad idea? That might be what the dastardly Nats want to do once you’ve signed their blank cheque.
A late term, vague referendum is the SNP’s plan, and I personally don’t have any confidence in it. If I were part of the Axis of Resignations I’d sit tight and nod and wait. Or if I was really devious I’d argue frantically for an early vote, in a kind of reverse Brer Rabbit approach. They’re surely not that smart though… are they?
Relying on the best electioneering machine Scotland has ever seen and the FM’s personal luck/strategic sense simply won’t be enough to turn the polls round for a late term campaign fought on these terms. The SNP has long been more popular than independence, but remember, the Yes vote will have to win a bigger share of the actual vote than the party did earlier this month. Re-running that same election won’t deliver a win. For one thing there are many who voted SNP (newspaper editors amongst them) who will be against. And many voted for other parties who will be for – not just Greens and Socialists either.
But there is an alternative. A moderately quick, clear, participative and ambitious process could deliver a win. Get on and deliver a couple of quick legislative successes at Holyrood (minimum pricing and ??). And set up a proper constitutional convention, with a steering group, to tour the country for nine months, meeting across the regions, taking in a plurality of views like the last one had. It could include not just loyal supporters of independence but the open-minded too, and those for whom it’s not their first choice but who’d rather it works if it’s going to happen.
Ask the people what kind of new Scotland they want, what a better nation would look like. Involve them, make the process theirs, turn ideas over in public, and let meetings inspire debate and debates inspire more meetings. Work by consensus – devolution is actually more complicated a project than independence, and consensus worked before. Aim towards a vote in autumn 2012, long enough for due consideration but not so long that staleness creeps in.
Would the outcome be an up-and-down vote or a multi-option vote? I don’t know. Would the offer be a radically democratic Scotland, not beholden to inherited position, wealth or institutional inertia? A place with key freedoms built in and guaranteed by a written constitution? I hope so, and I’d go further – I’d take part to try and help shape it in that direction.
The polls currently ask people a daft question, a question they can’t answer with what we know already. What, exactly, are they saying yes or no to? Even the mighty Deputy First Minister doesn’t know what the answers are. Running an open and participative process instead would be brave, letting control slip from a majority government to the people, but I believe it’s the only way a referendum can be won, and the only way to build a new Scotland worth the effort.
#1 by Jennie Kermode on May 24, 2011 - 4:40 pm
There are three things which I think need to be taken into account here:-
1. 2010 will be toward the end of not only an SNP administration in Holyrood but also a Tory one at Westminster. History suggests that Scots, given the chance, will always prefer to blame the Tories, and independence would seem to offer a long-term solution, a promise of escape from their rule.
2. If we are to approach a referendum in a sensible manner, with a view to good government and not just political advantage, there’ll be lots of practical work to do first. Furthermore, the Scottish people deserve the opportunity to properly acquaint themselves with the issues. The AV mess illustrates the problem (from a democratic perspective) with rushing a referendum so that all voters have to inform them is hastily scribbled propaganda.
3. Increasingly, the view of the Scottish public seems to be that independence is a thing which is going to happen (sooner or later). This could prove a critical factor in the way the referendum ultimately goes. It is always difficult to persuade people to vote against the status quo on constitutional issues, but if they perceive the status quo not as Scotland-within-the-union but as Scotland-progressing-away-from-the-union, the whole game is different. This, I think, is why the SNP would be wise to wait.
#2 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 7:03 pm
I kind of feel that 3 might count against independence, if people recognise we’re in a process of devolution, that the constitution isn’t fixed – and it’s really only in the 50-is years before 1998 that we had a stable constitutional settlement in Great Britain (NI, of course, was devolved for a period there) – they may be more likely to go for devo-max style options which avoid the difficult and costly aspects of independence while retaining most of the advantage.
#3 by Doug Daniel on May 24, 2011 - 8:08 pm
Surely it’s the opposite – they’re more likely to think “well, if it’s going to happen anyway, why put it off?”
#4 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 8:50 pm
Well no, the idea being that people prefer gradual reform to get to much the same end point as it’s less costly, offers time for review and is a lot less scary. But then I’m a Fabian so… 😉
#5 by Douglas McLellan on May 24, 2011 - 4:46 pm
I think that this ‘independent-lite’ thing has muddied the waters somewhat and you are correct about the number of damaging “what-abouts” that the no campaign could use.
I think that the 2015 Westminster election will play a part but I don’t know what. If the polls are showing that Labour might get back in Salmond might go before it but if the Tories are strong he might go after it.
#6 by IanH on May 24, 2011 - 4:47 pm
The problem with a late referendum that gets a yes vote, is that the next government has to do the negotiating. It is likely to be a minority and might even be New Labour.
#7 by James on May 24, 2011 - 4:51 pm
That hadn’t even occurred to me. But would a hypothetical SNP administration that was able to win a referendum in 2015 really lose a Holyrood election in 2016? Or do you mean New Labour down south?
#8 by rlemkin on May 24, 2011 - 4:55 pm
I think that’s what we all assume, if the referendum returns a YES vote the SNP will see a bounce from it.
If Labour was in power in London it would make no difference would it, assuming the people had said yes already?
#9 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 4:55 pm
The SNP is not postponing any decisions.
Currency – sterling in the immediate post independence period.
Defence – continued cooperation on conventional forces but the removal of nuclear weapons from Scotland’s land sea and air space.
Constitution – already drafted by the late Professor Neil McCormick. Though I imagine people might want to have a bit of a debate around it – no-one has shown much interest up until now.
In favour of the monarchy? The Monarch will still be the Monarch after independence, that’s just a fact. If there is a body of opinion to change that people can vote accordingly.
Finally a “late term campaign”?. It’s already started.
As for your suggestion of a constitutional convention – that may happen.
Is there going to be a multi-option vote? I don’t think so. I think that time has passed. The SNP tried bloody hard over the past four years to involve the unionist parties in a conversation about Scotland’s constitutional future and they treated us with utter contempt. They have created this outcome therefore.
Finally on the point about the SNP not being able to set out an exact point by point description of every single facet of an independent Scotland.
People – even independence supporters like you – tend to overlook the fact that the first action an SNP Government will take after independence is to call a general election. It is that government that will take many of the decisions that people demand the SNP takes now, before we are independent.
There are two possible explanations for this strange phenomenon. One is that people don’t expect an independent Scotland to be a democracy, which is a little worrying. Perhaps they envisage a North Korean style state with Alex Salmond as Supreme Ruler and Arbiter of everything. If that is what you think can I assure you that is not the plan! The second explanation is that people just assume that the SNP will be elected to run an independent Scotland. But the SNP does not assume that – we can’t assume that and we can;t make commitments on behalf of an independent Scottish government which has not yet been elected.
#10 by James on May 24, 2011 - 5:14 pm
I’m talking about the constitution, not the here-today, gone-tomorrow policies of any individual government. You have confused the two in many places. I’m also anti-nuclear, but that should be a decision for any first post-independence Scottish Government. The idea that Prof McCormick has already written us a constitution that will suffice is absurd – no other new-country-in-waiting would accept a closed process like that as a fait accompli. And if the SNP offer an independent Scotland with the Queen as head of state they can kiss goodbye to a fair few radical votes. And as for the “late term campaign”, forgive me: I meant “a late term vote”.
Finally, I’d be a lot keener on a yes vote, no matter what the terms, if I thought the SNP would divide into its component parts afterwards. Honestly, what would the point be of the SNP if the vote goes through?
#11 by James on May 24, 2011 - 5:24 pm
Also, could we have a link to the good Prof’s text, please?
#12 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 6:14 pm
Best I could find was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Constitution_for_a_Free_Scotland
Even the SNP dont have it on their website.
#13 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 6:23 pm
Ha! My Google-Fu is strong today.
http://constitutionalcommission.org/production/byre/images/assets/file/Resources%20Folder/SNP_2002_text.pdf
#14 by The Burd on May 24, 2011 - 7:15 pm
Allan Macartney’s Citizens not Subjects is better even but written before the internet. Trying to track down a copy…
#15 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 7:41 pm
Is this is?
http://bit.ly/mTxWnR
#16 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 5:34 pm
There is a draft constitution for an independent Scotland. I am not suggesting that it will suffice. What I am suggesting is that the SNP has done a great deal of work on the options for independence which nobody else – including the Greens – has taken the slightest bit of interest in becasue you never thought it would happen. Maybe you did not recognise the sarcasm in my remark. I will have to make it a bit heavier.
Fact is everyone is now playing catch-up. The SNP supports a written constitution for an independent Scotland. And we have written one. If other parties, stakeholders and indivuduals want to get in on the game then great. We actually invited you to when the National Conversation was launched.
PS: Regarding the nuclear weapons issue. The SNP’s position – and the position of Scottish CND as I understand – is that nuclear weapons are illegal. That is written into the draft constitution. I am pretty surprised that a Green would challenge that.
PPS: Your comments on the Queen are truly laughable. You are suggesting that radical people would be so hacked off at the SNP not specifying that an independent Scotland would be a republic that they would vote to stay part of the British State. Really????????
#17 by James on May 24, 2011 - 5:49 pm
I’m against nuclear weapons. And poverty. And climate change. Does that mean all of those get agreed before a vote, and locked into the famous constitution (google didn’t turn it up – can you help?)? And I’m against a non-elected head of state. I think it’s a more egregious wrong than a lack of independence. Locking us into a photocopy of Westminster isn’t something I’d vote for, just like I’d have been tempted to vote no in the Australian referendum. If you can’t see the issues here, nor that I’m trying to be constructive, you are kinda making my argument for me.
#18 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 5:54 pm
You seriously believe that whether or not we have the Queen as head of state is more important than whether or not we are independent?
Then you don’t believe in independence and that answers that question.
#19 by James on May 24, 2011 - 6:03 pm
Plenty of democracies contain diverse areas, multiple nations, for good or ill. Nowhere with a monarchy is a true democracy. Don’t tell me that means I don’t back independence. I just don’t think it’s the be-all and end-all, hence the absence of an SNP membership card in my wallet.
#20 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 6:12 pm
You really don’t believe in Scottish independence James.
Oh you might believe in it in some theoretical way just as you might believe that no country that has a monarchy can be a true democracy.
But it is all theoretical. You don’t really believe in independence for Scotlland or you wouldn’t see the monarchy as a big issue.
What difference would getting rid of the monarchy really make to people’s lives? Practically no difference. Whereas independence would make a difference.
That;s why even though I would vote for a republic in a referendum I don’t much care about the Monarchy. As priorities go, it is right down there witth what flag flies over Edinburgh Castle.
#21 by James on May 24, 2011 - 6:32 pm
Democracy is 100% rule by the people. Even constitutional and limited monarchy breaks that. It’s an absolute principle for me. I’d rather live in a democracy – any true democracy – than some undemocratic Scotland. How about you?
To be as kind as possible, although I recommend reading setindarkness below, your confusion here is between nationalists (of which I am not in the least) and supporters of independence (which I definitely am).
#22 by Allan on May 24, 2011 - 7:17 pm
“What difference would getting rid of the monarchy really make to people’s lives?”
You’d be surprised how much “finances” would be freed up if we got rid of Brenda and her army of freeloaders, never mind the fact that we would have an elected head of state.
Sorry, but I think that kind of thing is very importaint when we are talking about the possible setting up of a new country.
#23 by dcomerf on May 24, 2011 - 8:36 pm
Why would radical voters prefer assymmetric devolution for Scotland under a monarchy to an independent Scotland under the monarchy?
Likewise why should a Euro enthusiast, or a standalone currency enthusiast, prefer the UK with Sterling to an independent Scotland with sterling?
#24 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 5:39 pm
“As for your suggestion of a constitutional convention – that may happen”
I’m not sure how this statement ties in with all the stuff above it about currency, defence, constitution.. If this has all already been decided what would be the point of a constitutional convention other than as a, not very honest, way of drumming up support.
Your last point about the SNP not needing to set out “every single facet” seems to miss the point James is making i.e. that in terms of winning the vote it’s an open goal, people don’t vote for a pig in a poke, plus there will be lots olf opportunities for the opposition to trip up the SNP.
The point about a multi-option referendum is not about pleasing the opposition, it’s about how best to advance Scotland’s interests. It’s interesting that London commentators see the multi-option referendum as a clever trick by Alex. They use it to highlight how astute he is because they know it would advance his cause and cause wrong-foot in his opponents
#25 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 5:49 pm
The point of a constitutional convention would be to allow other parties to get on board.
There is already an Independence Convention. That could be the forum I suggest
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/
#26 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 6:26 pm
You haven’t responded to my other points.
As James is demonstrating above the idea that everyone in Scotland will just jump on board the SNPs bus on something as fundamental as what state they choose to live in is naive, the whole SNP approach strikes me as naive. People voted for a government on May 5th they did not sign up to a SNP worldview on the queen, currency, constitution.
The SNP still has to win the argument on all of this against a background of widespread scepticism about the SNPs ideas for an independent Scotland. The point about James’ suggestion of a constitutional convention is that the process becomes something that Scottish society as a whole feels it owns. It is only this kind of engagement that will get te SNP over the problem it has in being seen as trying to dictate the countries future.
The SNP have only recently become the dominant party in Scotland. By trying to push trough an independence vote in this parliament, without an alternative on the ballot, they risk derailing the process of moving away from Westminster’s control for god knows how long.
#27 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:19 pm
Alex what the SNP is proposing regarding the Queen the currency etc is the status quo.
Voting for independence won’t actually change the position of the monarchy and it won’t change the currency.
The debate will be about what independence will change, not what it won’t.
#28 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 8:31 pm
Well you need to spell it out in those terms because frankly as its coming accross it feels hubristic and Alex Salmond already has a presentational problem in that direction. People voted for him because he’s the most effective politician we have. He would be a fool if he thought it was because people like his style. The SNP needs to project more of a ‘servant of the people’ image, especially if it wants to gain enough trust to win the most important vote that people will ever cast in their lives.
#29 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 7:08 pm
I should add that I don’t think it is just the SNP who are naive. I think all those who respond to opinion polls by saying they support the idea of a referendum while at the same time planning to vote no seem totally oblivious to the detrimental effects a failed referendum would have on Scottish self confidence. They also seem obvilious to the reaction such an outcome would provoke outside of Scotland, especially in London. Scotland would face a far starker political reality post a failed referendum. We would go from Scottish Spring to Scottish Winter.
#30 by Allan on May 24, 2011 - 7:20 pm
I would say to that, what I said to a friend on Friday night. That I haven’t yet heard a good enough argument for Independence, the same as I haven’t yet heard a good argument for staying in the union.
#31 by Doug Daniel on May 24, 2011 - 8:29 pm
What kind of argument are you waiting for? What would persuade you either way?
#32 by Allan on May 24, 2011 - 9:27 pm
Well… not the shortbread tin and tartan arguments that we have had so far. I think that the above post is certainly a starting point.
Hmmm, thats a difficult question on both sides. Maybe that’s something for a future blog post. Certainly my recient post is where i’m at at the moment.
Interestingly, the friend we were out with explained why he was pro-union – that it was better to be part of something big with more influence & power than to be small and vulnerable/at risk. It’s a point I hadn’t thought about before, though I could think of at least 3 or 4 counter arguments (mostly about having 30 years of Thatcher influenced governments acting against the wishes of most of the Scottish electorate).
#33 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 10:48 am
“that it was better to be part of something big with more influence & power than to be small and vulnerable/at risk.”
Sorry Allan, but that’s just “too wee, too poor” reworded. We may be part of the UK, and the UK may indeed have a measure of influence & power (not as much as it likes to think, and this will diminish as the BRIC economies continue to grow) but what influence and power does Scotland actually enjoy under the current arrangement? More importantly, is it influence & power that we want to be a part of?
I would far rather be a small (aka “too wee”) country that makes its own decisions, rather than being part of a bigger country that does things which I am fundamentally opposed to, such as illegal warmongering, harbouring nuclear weapons, and putting the desires of the rich ahead of the needs of the poor.
As for vulnerable/at risk (aka “too poor”), unionists have yet to prove conclusive proof to show that an independent Scotland would somehow be unable to take advantage of the many natural resources that we have at our disposal. If anything, Scotland is more vulnerable as a part of the union, as our needs come way down the pecking order, well below those of the South-East of England.
Sorry, but your friend is just buying into the usual pro-union propaganda and spinning it to sound ever so slightly less negative than usual.
#34 by IanH on May 24, 2011 - 5:05 pm
I was meaning Scotland rather than Westminster, but agree winning the referendum and then losing the election doesn’t seem likely. but it took a perfect storm to get a majority. A minority government might be in a weaker position during negotiations, especially if there were spoiler tactics at Holyrood
#35 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 6:59 pm
A minority SNP government could easily be bounced into having to hold a 2nd referendum to actually implement the negotiated settlement if the independence question is as vague as “please go negotiate”. That’s a mandate for negotiating the details, not to implement them.
#36 by Doug Daniel on May 24, 2011 - 8:35 pm
There will not be a second referendum, let’s put that one to bed right now. No country in the world has had a referendum saying “hey, do you like the idea of independence?” and a second one saying “okay, are you sure? Because this is what we’re actually proposing.”
Besides, if it did happen, people would feel safer in voting “yes” for the first one, knowing they could then vote “no” in the second one. In the time between those two referendums, those people would probably end up being swayed anyway.
Holding a second referendum kind of ruins the rubbish being spouted a few months ago about a referendum being too expensive, though… Unionists need to get together and decide what their real line of attack is, because the scattergun approach we currently see just looks like panic.
#37 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 8:43 pm
Sorry, I’ll be sure to raise that at the next meeting of the unionist conspiracy.
#38 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 10:50 am
Good man.
#39 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 8:48 pm
And to engage with the real point, if we’re not to have a two stage referendum then the question has to be a lot more specific about what sort of independence is on offer than the nebulous, undefined one in view now.
#40 by James on May 25, 2011 - 7:43 am
Exactly. That’s why I’ve never liked that question format.
#41 by setindarkness on May 24, 2011 - 6:15 pm
This is the sort of attitude that will mean Scotland remains part of the union. It cannot be Us v Them anymore.
#42 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 6:52 pm
Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Engage your brain guys.
This is not an election we are talking about. It’s not like people are being given the choice between voting for the SNP or the Greens and the purists say I think I’ll vote Green because they support a republic and the SNP are monarchists. Neither is it a referendum on the monarchy. It is a referendum on independence.
The choice people are voting on is whether to stay in the UK or whether to become independent.
Eiither way you get the monarchy. But if you are a leftist republican type then what constitutional set-up is most promising in terms of achieving your goals? The British state or an independent Scotland? That is a no brainer.
Just as it is a no brainer for us – the people delivering the referendum – not to put barriers in the way of people who might vote for it. Hence we just accept the status quo as far as the monarchy goes. Because we want people to vote on independence – not on the monarchy.
This is adult politics not student politics. Maybe I wrongly assumed James was part of that world.
#43 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 7:20 pm
I cant help thinking that your argument here is akin to the AV/PR debates prior to the voting reform referendum. And we all saw how well that went.
Perhaps James can take a leaf out of the Bella Caledonia approach to things and write REPUBLIC on his independence ballot paper?
#44 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:26 pm
Yes Douglas that is a perfectly reasonable point.
Deciding whether Scotland should become independent is just the same as deciding whether there ought to be a minor adjustment to a first past the post voting system which is not actually supported by any party and was only decided on as a political fix which allowed the Lib Dems to get into bed with the Tories.
#45 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 7:44 pm
Now now. Lets play nice.
Since there are differing levels of independence and differing ideas about how our nation is governed do you really think that James is so wrong to have a point of view that suggests “independence” under the Queen is not the “independence” he wants.
#46 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:06 pm
To oppose independence on the issue of the monarchy would be the epitome of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
The pragmatic decision would be, for one fixated on the monarchy issue to an unhealthy extent but nonetheless pro-independence, to vote for the option most likely to result in getting rid of the monarchy eventually.
Of course, getting rid of the monarchy in Scotland might leave the rest of the UK under the neo-Elizabethan jackboot in perpetuity. Perhaps this nightmare scenario is what horrifies James. I can only speculate.
#47 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 11:52 am
There aren’t differing levels of independence. There are different options for what you can do with your independence. As an example:
Ireland is a constitutional republic which is a member of the EU and of the eurozone but not of NATO.
Norway is a constitutional monarchy which is not a member of the EU or the eurozone but is a member of NATO.
Sweden is a constitutional monarchy which is a member of the EU but not the eurozone or NATO.
All 3 of these countries are independent. They have exactly the same level of independence as each other. But they have made different choices about what they want to do with their independence.
#48 by setindarkness on May 24, 2011 - 7:28 pm
Bah, Better Nation quoting system letting us down again. I care not for the monarchy. I’m talking about this bit
If you make the referendum “people who believe in independence v people who don’t believe in independence” there will be no independence.
I am absolutely no nationalist, but I’m 75% for independence, not quite made my mind up yet.
Do you want me to vote in favour or not ?
#49 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:36 pm
Oh right I get what you mean.
Thing is James has always claimed to believe in independence.
But if you really believe in independence it’s unconditional. You don’t say I believe in independence provided an independent Scotland will look exactly the way I want it to – in James’s case a low carbon republic no doubt.
I also have my ideas about what I would like an independent Scotland to look like, no doubt we all do. But I don’t put conditions on my support for independence because I believe in it as a principle in the way that James clearly does not.
Of course I don’t expect voters to feel the same way – but the Green Party is avowedly pro independence so I expect someone like James to be pro independence on principle which he clearly is not.
#50 by James on May 24, 2011 - 7:50 pm
You say. I disagree. I want a better Scotland, not just any old independence settlement.
And throughout this discussion you’ve failed, as is your inalienable right, to engage with my actual argument. I want a referendum to succeed, I believe current SNP plans will fail because they are too vague, too easy to demolish, and insufficiently inclusive.
#51 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:55 pm
I don’t want to engage with your argument because it would involve being rude. But since you ask I don’t think you are in a position to advise us. Quite honestly anybdy who thinks that dragging the future of the monarchy into the independence referendum would make it more winnable is just not being sensible. Why don’t we throw in a question about Catholic schools as well eh? Lol.
#52 by James on May 24, 2011 - 8:02 pm
I do hope the SNP leadership understand the problem better than you do, or this referendum will surely go down as yet another heroic Scottish failure.
#53 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 9:24 pm
I object strongly to being made to live through a buff referendum campaign. What about a “not in our name” campaign against an exclusive top down referendum process.
#54 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:38 pm
The other point is that if you don’t vote for independence you are voting to stay in the UK so it literally makes no sense for people to vote against independence because the SNP proposes to retain certain aspects of the British constitutional set up in the short term. If you vote against independence you retain all of the aspects of the British state,
#55 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 6:45 pm
Obsessing about the monarchy is just so student politicky,
#56 by Nconway on May 24, 2011 - 7:14 pm
I have to agree with Indy ,whether Scotland keeps the monarchy is not the issue ,if Scots vote for independence then Scots would have the power to decide whether to keep the monarchy or not .At the moment James the people of Scotland do not have that power thats what independence brings,so dreaming that every thing could be agreed upon and it would happen after one vote is naive even childish especially when many of those who have the right to vote in Scotland and who would vote yes to independence are fond of the royal family.
#57 by James on May 24, 2011 - 7:18 pm
A new Scotland should continue to be beholden to the royal family? Really?
#58 by Allan on May 24, 2011 - 7:24 pm
I refer the person to my previous comment.
If we are looking to set up a new country with the values that we, i think, share. the last thing we should be doing is keeping the anachronistic, undemocratic drain on our resources that is Brenda and her hangers on.
What would be the point of voting yes if it wasn’t a complete break from the past
#59 by Doug Daniel on May 24, 2011 - 8:55 pm
Because some people are scared of too much change, hence why any referendum with a “devo max” option would win.
I’m a republican, always have been. But I would be prepared to continue with the Queen as head of state initially if it meant getting independence. I’m fairly sure Scotland would soon vote to become a republic – you just have to look at how Scotland generally met the Royal Wedding with one big, collective shrug of the shoulders.
There’s a reason for this: I think living within the union is far more harmful to Scotland than having the Queen as head of state. Once the current Queen pops her clogs, I think it’s quite conceivable that an independent Scotland would say “sorry Chuck, we don’t want a King Charles III of Scotland.”
#60 by Tony on May 24, 2011 - 9:32 pm
Wot Doug said!
I think a promise to have a referendum during the first free parliament on the question of the monarchy would satisfy most people.
There is a balancing act here, sadly some people are pro-independence and pro-Monarchy, and some are even anti-independence whilst being anti-monarchy and various shades inbetween. Post independence those anti-Monarch votes may be important.
Although i do agree with indy in that it seems bizzare that the wean get’s thrown out with the bathwater over an issue that would be resolved in favour of a republic in a short period of time. One thing is certain it is much more likely that an independent Scotland would chase the Windsor than the present unitry entity that is the UK.
#61 by douglas clark on May 24, 2011 - 7:26 pm
James @ 30,
Is it really so hard to understand?
Whether there is a monarch or not could or would be the subject of a referendum in a future, independent Scotland. Much like the one Australia had. It is not a deal breaker.
#62 by James on May 24, 2011 - 7:41 pm
It’s clearer to click “reply” to the comment you want to reply to.
#63 by Aaron Crane on May 24, 2011 - 7:46 pm
Hold on, isn’t this the “No true Scotsman†fallacy?
#64 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:51 pm
No it is not. It is an entirely pragmatic position.
If we load a requirenent to support republicanism onto the referendum on independence we will make it much more difficult to win because we distract from the central argument.
That is why the SNP – which is chock full of republicans incidentally – has taken the position on the monarchy that we have taken.
We are not the Scottish Republican Party after all – though I believe there is one.
#65 by James on May 24, 2011 - 7:53 pm
And if you think that the SNP just deciding that in advance, that what we the Scottish people get offered is a monarchist state, is the right course of action, you will lose. I’m not trying to prejudge what an open constitutional process might end up with, but these issues must be discussed first if the referendum isn’t to fail.
#66 by Doug Daniel on May 24, 2011 - 9:01 pm
I think you’re assuming the monarchy is as big an issue for people as independence, James. I really don’t think there are enough people that would say “no chance, I’m not voting for an independent monarchist state – I’ll stick with the status quo and take my chances trying to convince the UK to become the UR, thankyouverymuch.”
If the idea was to go from a United Republic of Great Britain & Northern Ireland into the independent Kingdom of Scotland, then that would be different. But it’s not, and Scottish republicans stand a much greater chance of removing the monarchy from an independent Scotland than from the UK. If your end goal is to live in a Scottish republic, then Scottish independence as a first step is your only route.
#67 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:46 pm
That is not the point. The point is that if we adopt an avowedly republican stance we risk alienating a fair chunk of the electorate who might otherwise be disposed to vote yes. We would be putting an unnecessary barrier in the way of a vote for independence.
If people feel strongly about the issue of the monarchy then by all means go out and campaign for a referendum to make Scotland a republic. That is not the SNP’s am however. Our aim is to win a referendum on independence and we must concentrate on that.
#68 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 8:46 pm
You’re conflating the interests of the SNP with the interests of Scotland. I thought the whole point of the SNP was that you point the interests of Scotland first?
#69 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 9:06 pm
I think this is where the SNP need a reality check. The election campaign seems to have created a strong sense of purpose and dynamic but, by being mostly with other SNPers, its easy to fall into the trap of thinking everyone in Scotland sees things from this perspective.
This is the SNPs blind spot. It wasn’t an issue I feel during the election because then people were mostly voting on policies and past performance, but it will be an issue in a referendum campaign. The good thing about this board has been that all the “Yes we can” boo ha ha that has been so much in evidence since the election has been seen to be so much hot air.
#70 by Aidan Skinner on May 25, 2011 - 12:10 am
The SNP are now in government but seem, to varying extents, to think they’ve won a significant electoral majority having running on a campaign of Independence and strengthening of the Scotland Bill. Neither assumption is correct. They won a slim parliamentary majority on a minority of the votes cast in a campaign that was about everything *but* independence. The SNP mentioned it as little as possible and, as usual, when Labour brought it up cried foul.
I want a vibrant, vital debate about the future of the country that actually settles the question. I don’t want a badly thought out, badly fought fudge of a referendum that alienates the electorate and leads to bitter recriminations for a generation to come.
#71 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 11:33 am
We were elected on a mandate to hold a referendum on independence and that is exactly what we are going to do.
The interesting thing is that the SNP has actually said very little about the referendum since being elected.
It is everyone else who is talking about it.
Look at this board – nothing gets people going like a discussion on independence, whether or not people support it they want to talk about it and analyse it and look at all the options.
If you want “a vibrant, vital debate about the future of the country that actually settles the question” then you are pretty unique in the Labour Party. And I can’t help but point out that the SNP offered you that opportunity during the Scottish Government’s first term in office – an offer that the Labour Party treated with complete contempt.
It may be that you have now changed your minds – or perhaps had your minds changed for you – and now want to engage in a real debate about Scotland’s constitutional future. Time will tell whether that is the case or whether we will just get more of the-sky-will -fall-in-if -you-vote-for- independence stuff.
#72 by John Ruddy on May 25, 2011 - 7:01 pm
I can assure you that he isnt unique in the Labour Party in having that view. But then that doesnt fit your narrative.
#73 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:14 pm
The ‘Interests of Scotland’ aren’t written down somewhere, you know. It’s up to political parties to come up with what they think the ‘Interests of Scotland’ are, and then pursue them.
#74 by Aidan Skinner on May 25, 2011 - 12:11 am
The apparent attitude that “this is the SNPs referendum, we decide” is blatantly putting party interest before national interest.
#75 by aonghas on May 25, 2011 - 12:13 pm
Um, no.
The purpose of political parties is not to simply guess at the ‘Mean’ National Opinion and then follow that. Parties have a manifesto, people vote for them, they get elected, they govern accordingly.
Really quite simples!
#76 by John Ruddy on May 25, 2011 - 7:00 pm
And when any other party says its own policy is in the interest of Scotland, the SNP shout “No it isnt!”
#77 by daveinmaryburgh on May 25, 2011 - 12:33 am
Indy you and James seem to be agreeing?
The comment from James (haven’t read through to the bottom yet) is that to win the referendum there needs to be a clear view of what that will bring. By taking a republican or monarchist stance (also EU, NATO, currency etc) without debate/input from all parties working toward independence will alienate some and could jeopardise the outcome of the referendum.
#78 by James on May 25, 2011 - 7:45 am
Sorry, Dave, that’s my view but it appears really not Indy’s.
#79 by Dave Coull on May 24, 2011 - 7:52 pm
The politicians and those seeking to calculate political party advantage are wrong. I’m not. I have consistently advocated a referendum without delay. As for the question to be put in a referendum, here is the suggestion I’ve been putting forward:
“At present, the Scottish Parliament has authority over some policies, but important areas such as finance, welfare, defence, and foreign affairs are reserved to Westminster. Should the Scottish Government enter into negotiations with the British Government for transfer of full sovereignty to Scotland?â€
Recently, both unionists and media journalists have been asking “but what do you mean by ‘independence’?” – the advantage of the referendum question I’m suggesting is that it answers that question. Independence means the transfer of ALL of the powers which are currently reserved.
#80 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 7:54 pm
If the SNP members on this board had half a brain they would realise that what has transpired here today is exactly what will happen when the campaign starts in earnest. In other words this is a good opportunity to assess their approach. It’s clear that the SNP feels pressure to provide details of what an independent Scotland would be like, but in doing this they risk alienating natural supporters in the hope of picking up the middle ground vote. Perhaps a rethink is in order.
#81 by Indy on May 24, 2011 - 7:56 pm
Alex I am pretty sure everyone on this board will vote yes. We just like arguing OK?
#82 by Dave Coull on May 24, 2011 - 8:07 pm
No we don’t.
#83 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 8:22 pm
Yes but not very convincingly. You need to up your game before you face the punters.
#84 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 8:23 pm
Really. You sure?
#85 by daveinmaryburgh on May 25, 2011 - 12:35 am
Pretty much
#86 by Aaron Crane on May 24, 2011 - 7:59 pm
I think you’ve misunderstood me. You were claiming that it’s impossible to be simultaneously in favour of independence and against monarchism — that anyone who’s against monarchism cannot, by definition, truly want independence. That’s a fallacious position according to the rules of formal logic, and I rather hoped I’d pointed that fact out in an amusing way.
#87 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:33 pm
I think somebody’s misunderstood somebody, certainly.
#88 by Tony on May 24, 2011 - 9:44 pm
Indeed!
#89 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 10:45 am
No I wasn’t claiming that – as I think is clear to anybody who reads what I said.
#90 by Nconway on May 24, 2011 - 8:29 pm
So James what you are saying is that unless as part of the referendum vote it states that come independence Scotland will become a republic that you will vote no to independence ,therefore keeping Scotland part of the UK which will never vote to become a republic .However if you did vote yes you would give Scots the oportunity to vote at a later date to become a republic something that will never ever happen if Scotland remains tied to Westminster ,It sounds like your cutting of your nose to spite your face.
#91 by James on May 24, 2011 - 8:41 pm
No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the people should decide the question as well as the answer, not the SNP. And that the monarchy will be an issue no matter who raises it, and no matter what’s offered.
#92 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:40 pm
“the people should decide the question as well as the answer”
This is an interesting and I would say nonsensical or too-simplistic-to-be-meaningful concept, since the question arrived at depends on the people asked, and the answer they want. If the people decide the question, then are they deciding on a question they want to answer with a No, or a question they want to answer with a Yes? Either way, why ask the question? Should we arrive at a question that 100% of ‘the people’ say yes to (an ‘agreed’ question), or that 50% plus one person says Yes/No to (a ‘balanced’ question)?
Is it just the noisy people with the free time and the strong convictions that end up coming up with the question?
#93 by James on May 24, 2011 - 9:42 pm
If you’re not sure how it works, please look back at the history of the Constitutional Convention. Done by consensus, believe it or not.
#94 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 9:45 pm
Scottish Constitutional Convention
“Initially the Scottish National Party (SNP) participated, but the then party leader Gordon Wilson, along with Jim Sillars, decided to withdraw the SNP from participation owing to the convention’s unwillingness to discuss Scottish independence as a constitutional option.”
I think I see a spanner in the works James……
#95 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:47 pm
OK, I thought it was an open forum, but you’re advocating a forum of pro-independence people looking just at independence. Fair enough.
#96 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 8:42 pm
Perhaps for the 1st time I am going to defend James.
I dont think that is what he has said. He, I think, is arguing for a much clearer independence proposal that includes not just the input from political parties but input from civic society as well as the people of Scotland. I think he also stating this may result in a different and better independence proposal than just what is on offer from the SNP and which would have a greater chance of succeeding.
At no point has he stated that he would actually vote no in a referendum.
#97 by daveinmaryburgh on May 25, 2011 - 12:42 am
Have to say that it is how I read the article and comments and I agree. This is an opportunity to change our country for the better and it requires a clear understanding of what independence means if not then we may never get the opportunity again.
#98 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 10:41 am
Independence is independence. There is actually no debate about what it means.
It means that Scotland becomes a sovereign state.
All of the powers which are currently exercised by the UK Government (and Parliament) over Scotland will be transferred to the Scottish Government (and Parliament).
That is what independence means.
There would be a whole range of options available to Scotland after that point. We could be a constitutional monarchy or a republic. We could be in NATO or out of NATO. We could be in the EU or out of the EU. We could have a right wing tax cutting government or a left wing tax and spend government. Etc.
There is a point of view which says I will support independence provided X, Y and Z happens. If X Y or Z does not happen then I am not in favour of independence. This appears to be James’ position.
The fundamental flaw with that way of thinking is that he is not God, he does not get to choose between one “version” of independence and another. None of us do as individuals. Because none of us can own the concept or put conditions on it. But collectively we do own independence because it is simply the ability for the democratically elected Scottish Parliament to elect a Government and take decisions on our behalf the way that any other independent country does,
Nobody – but nobody – can ptredict exactly what decisions will be taken by an independent Scotland any more than they can predict exactly what decisions will be taken by a future UK Government.
Life is inherently unpredicatable. The choice for Scots is whether we want to deal with an unpredicatable world as an independent country with the same decision making powers that other independent countries have or whether we want to continue to have the UK Government take decisions on reserved matters on ouir behalf.
#99 by douglasmclellan on May 25, 2011 - 11:19 am
If independence meant border controls at Gretna and the need for a visa to visit England then I would not support independence.
I agree that is unlikely to happen but these issues need to be discussed. Independence is not just independence. There are, despite your point of view, differing levels of independence.
#100 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 11:59 am
Oh for God’s sake why would independence mean border controls at Gtetna or a visa to visit England?
If it didn’t mean that for Ireland at the height of the Troubles why would it for Scotland?
#101 by Jeff on May 25, 2011 - 12:05 pm
Well, it’s not as daft an objection as it once was. The Schengen passport-free agreement is unravelling with Denmark now imposing border controls on Sweden and Germany due to immigrations fears and the rise in influence of a far-right party.
That’s unlikely to happen on Scotland’s side of the border but, can we rule it out on the other side?
#102 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 12:32 pm
Same question as to Douglas. If there were no border controls between the UK and Ireland even at the height of the Troubles why would there be border controls between Scotland and the UK?
Schengen is not relevant as it does not apply.
#103 by Jeff on May 25, 2011 - 12:43 pm
I can easily imagine a situation where pro-EU independent Scotland joins Schengen in order to boost relations and trade with the continent but rUK and Ireland maintain their commitment to having border controls (as it currently has). That would require passports to be shown at the Scottish border.
We’re off into faraway guesswork here but ‘passports at Gretna’ is not as ridiculous a notion as some suggest.
#104 by douglasmclellan on May 25, 2011 - 2:59 pm
That was what I was thinking. France has done something similar.
#105 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 1:56 am
All I can say to both Douglas and Jeff is that if border controls would put you off then you aren’t really ready to accept an independent Scotland. Lots of things could go wrong for an independent Scotland in the future but in voting for independence you are expressing faith in the country you are voting to make independent and also in the people including yourself.
To have such a conditional attitude is symptomatic of why I think neither of you are really ready for an independent Scotland and you would be better to just accept that. What I fear is that many other Scots are at that level.
If we compare this to the situation Ireland was at when it gained independence then the Irish people had gone through such a process of maturation of their view about themselves and their relation to the world that worries over border controls would have be seen in the wider context of things as trivial in the extreme.
#106 by daveinmaryburgh on May 25, 2011 - 4:51 pm
I will not pretend to know what James may believe/thinks but I didn’t pick that up from the article or subsequent comments. Regarding my point for you and me independence is clear and the details can be sorted out after however for many that is not enough although many will understand that the detail and some decisions will be made after the referendum and will evolve as time goes on.
What is important however is to recognise that fact that the SNP can’t go it alone and must explain to Scotland what the options will be and the pros and cons of each. The way to achieve this is to sit down with others who share a wish for independence but with different priorities once it has been achieved and set out these options and far example a timetable to implement whatever is agreed in the new parliament. By doing this it leaves less space for the anti independence groups to sow lies and miss information.
#107 by Graham on May 24, 2011 - 8:30 pm
There is a clear distinction between having a rational discussion about monarchism and obsessing about it. Any attempt to assimilate the two is unhelpful, as it is to attempt to assimilate anti-monarchism with socialism or studentry. It would be similarly silly to state that CND are obsessing about nuclear weapons.
I disagree that the question of whether the head of state of an independent Scotland should be democratically elected or hereditarily assumed is unimportant. Many other Scots appear to agree because in the only substantial public discussion of the subject that I can recall in my lifetime (Carlton TV, 1997, The Nation Decides) 56% of Scots voted against retaining a monarchy (higher now, surely). Perhaps this is why footnote 1 on page 11 of McCormick’s Scottish Constitution states that “The SNP is committed to holding a referendum in the term of office of the first independent Parliament of Scotland on whether to retain the monarchy”. Is the document yet to be brought up to date?
Indy, I think the question is less whether anti-monarchists might vote against independence unless it was republican, more whether they might be sufficiently motivated to vote at all. Of course, less than half the population voted at the recent election and we need more to engage, not less.
Anyway, interesting discussion. A welcome balance to the statistical analysis and personality politics indeed.
#108 by Observer on May 24, 2011 - 8:45 pm
”that anyone who’s against monarchism cannot, by definition, truly want independence. That’s a fallacious position according to the rules of formal logic, and I rather hoped I’d pointed that fact out in an amusing way.”
Are you not taking the fallacious position there?
That is not the point that was being made. The point as I read it is that if independence is the objective, then republicanism *at the same time* should not be a condition.
I think it would be a remarkably foolish thing to do to say” I agree with independence – as long as……………”& then rhyme off a list of things that you want.
The point of independence is to have the decisions made about how Scotland is governed made in Scotland by the people who live in Scotland.
We can argue about what those decisions are when we have the ability to make them for ourselves, surely.
#109 by James on May 25, 2011 - 7:48 am
No, you’ve simply not read what Indy said. Also, only for the SNP is independence the objective without any other considerations. I want a better Scotland, which means I’m picky about the form of independence offered.
And neither you nor Indy appear to understand the No True Scotsman fallacy linked to, which is precisely the logical (in the formal sense) error he fell into.
#110 by Tony on May 25, 2011 - 11:23 am
James
Just to be clear is abolishing the Monarchy a pre-condition on your part?
As I have said earlier there is much much more chance………….a certainty I reckon in abolishing the Monarchy, or abolishing nuclear weapons even amongst other things in an independent scotland. Thus, wanting a better Scotland – which I wholeheartedly agree with – can only be put in practice by taking the first logical step. That logical step is independence, surely?!?!
#111 by James on May 25, 2011 - 11:35 am
Tony, I haven’t got preconditions, I’ve got principles. An independent and radically democratic Scotland based on an openly debated and engaged constitutional convention I would vote for passionately. Any undemocratic independent Scotland I would vote against. In between there lies a line. Would retention of the monarchy alone be enough to make me vote against? No, but it makes me much less keen. Would a Scotland that goes into the Euro without another referendum (hypothetical, I know) be enough for me to vote against? Perhaps. And so on. The better the offer and the better (above all) the process, the more enthusiastic I will be. The more top-down, vague and inconsistent the offer and the less democratic the process and proposed outcome, the less enthusiastic I become, and below a certain point I’d conclude it’s better not.
#112 by Tony on May 25, 2011 - 11:56 am
Thanks James
Got to say that I just took for granted that there will be more clarity, indeed a clear plan the closer we got to the referendum. Whilst I understand your concerns better now I reckon that the clarity will come in time, it must.
I reiterate though that as a logical first step independence is a much better platform to fight for the issues that you quite rightly care so much about. And even should some of these concerns in your consideration may not recieve due treatment in the first instance. The independence platform allows a fighting chance compared to what we have with the British status quo.
#113 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 12:29 pm
Hmmm, slightly confused here, James. The Queen has no real power and is basically just a ceremonial figurehead, because we’re a parliamentary democracy, and as such, it could even be argued that we’re more democratic than many states that have an elected head of state that has actual powers, like the USA and France. Yet, you would consider an independent Scotland that remained under the Queen but with the promise of a future referendum on her position to be undemocratic?
What would be your preferred head of state for an independent Scotland, James? What powers would they have? Would it be a largely ceremonial president, like in Germany; or a president with substantial powers like France and the USA? How would this be decided ahead of the referendum, and why would this be more democratic than making such a big decision after independence has been regained?
Also, are you suggesting that countries like Norway, Denmark and Sweden – often held up as being shining examples of social democracy – as well as countries like Canada and Australia, are in fact undemocratic tyrannies, merely because they still have monarchs as their (ceremonial and powerless) heads of state?
#114 by James on May 25, 2011 - 12:47 pm
Doug, democracy isn’t on or off. Any country where the head of state is an inherited role is definitively less democratic than an otherwise identical country (ha!) with an elected head of state. And if you think the Queen is powerless, I’d talk to Gough Whitlam, because she (through her Governor General) removed him as Australia’s Prime Minister in 1975. That’s not ancient history like Queen Anne refusing Royal Assent in 1707.
I don’t have a fixed view on the form an elected head of state would take (probably my preference is for the German/Irish model), but for me the people themselves must decide, and before an independence vote too, if the No side are not to be given a substantial advantage in the campaign. I’m sorry to keep having to clarify what I thought I’d put so clearly.
#115 by Malc on May 25, 2011 - 12:52 pm
You can go more recent than that – with the Governor General in Canada accepting the minority PM’s wish to have prorogue Parliament in 2009(?) because he was going to fail to pass a budget – against the express wishes of the majority opposition. Just by the by…
#116 by Gryff on May 25, 2011 - 10:18 pm
Totally see where your coming from here, I would be tempted to agree BUT are not most of the most democratic countries not constitutional monarchies? Is Norway less democratic than France? Sweden than Italy? Is the US more democratic than Canada? Is Ireland more democratic than Australia?
I do think there are problems with the way executive power in the UK is concentrated, but I think the solution needs to be more complex than get rid of the Queen and it’ll be OK. i would far rather be Canada than The US.
#117 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 2:31 am
Everyone seems to be tone deaf to what James is trying to say. By trying to argue for an equivalence between monarchies and republics, everyone is ignoring his point that if people haven’t gone through some process of engaging with what kind of Scotland they want then they won’t have matured enough to be able to vote yes with any certainty.
Instead, unless they are a long-term committed supporter of independence, they will be swayed this way and that by the aguments for and against.
The problem in the SNPs understanding of the referendum, from what I see, is that it seems to be based on the “perfect storm” theory of politics; that is, that things will conspire to give Scots the confidence to vote for independence. But the problem I see with this is that it relies on peoples opinions changing rather than their commitment.
If we compare Scotland now to Ireland just before it got independence, the vast majority of people in Ireland had been caught up in the convulsions and had taken place and had had to take a stand one way or the other. They didn’t just have an opinion they were committed either to independence or, in the case of the protestants in the north, to continuing union.
The important point is that this was more than just having an opinion, this was having a commitment through having engaged. If, in Scotland, the majority remain unengaged all they will have is opinions which will fluctuate and be liable to be influenced by any scare that emerges during the period from now untill the vote. Effectively this seems to repeat the mistake made in Quebec.
#118 by James on May 26, 2011 - 8:00 am
Alex, thanks for that. It isn’t precisely my point, but it moves on very seamlessly from the point I was making.
#119 by Observer on May 24, 2011 - 8:55 pm
Are people sure that Scotland would vote to be rid of the monarchy? I doubt it as long as the present Queen is on the throne as most people seem to think she is Helen Mirren these days.
Perhaps it would be better to wait until she’s gone, by which time with any luck we could be independent.
#120 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 9:25 pm
Despite the fair amount of grief James is getting (told you you would!), I think it’s a fair challenge to the SNP that it can’t offer a referendum with one hand and withhold the detail and the practicalities with the other.
I think the monarchy issue is a bit of a distraction as, as Indy says, if you want independence then you’re not going to be ‘that’ fussed if it comes with the Queen or not; an independent nation can always have another referendum on the monarchy (witness Australia)
That said, I think it’s a bit too idealistic for ‘the people’ to set the question and the detail. Realistically, that’s for the SNP to decide as there’s only so much you can take from a National Conversation or a Convention. Somone has to draw a line under any umming and awing, put something down on paper and say ‘right, that’s what we’re voting on’. That’s Alex Salmond, for me.
Timing? I just can’t see Nationalists winning a referendum next year, too soon, too sudden and ‘the people’ will feel like they’re getting bounced into something they don’t fully understand. I disagree with James’ suggestion that ‘SNP support’ equates to ‘independence support’.
A referendum in 2015, with Scotland facing another 5 years of the unloved Tories at Westminster and the meaning of independence as clear as possible due to 4 years of media debate on the matter, has a great chance of passing.
#121 by James on May 24, 2011 - 9:28 pm
Jeff, it’s not idealistic, it’s pragmatic, and it’s also what happened with devolution, which is actually more complicated (given the decision on what to reserve and what not to).
#122 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 9:42 pm
I think it’s idealistic to say that it is pragmatic.
I was just a nipper when devolution was getting discussed but I have no doubt that after a bit of talking, Donald Dewar or Tony Blair got their pens out and wrote what the referendum question was going to be. That’ll be the case with the independence referendum and, I have to say, I’m comfortable with that. We vote for parties to lead us and, even with a public referendum, there is a fair amount of unilateral decisions that need to be taken by whoever’s minding the shop at the time.
Where I do agree with you James is that there is a real risk that the SNP will try to avoid the difficult decisions over what it, as a party, wants an independent Scotland to look like. A “vague referendum” as you put it won’t pass, and it shouldn’t.
#123 by James on May 24, 2011 - 9:43 pm
The question was simple (do you agree the offer/do you agree the tax part?), but the offer was complicated, and had been agreed by the Constitutional Convention.
#124 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 10:06 pm
It’s not so much whether you agree with the process or not; more whether the process will guarantee success. I think there are grave dangers that the SNP will overestimate their ability and won’t see the pitfalls.
James’ idea may not be totally practical, given that the unionist parties will not want to participate and possibly a sizable amount of institutional Scotland might be wary of being seen to be involved in an independence referendum, but I nevertheless think that James is right on the principle; which is that you don’t succeed in bringing about major constitutional change unless you have a wide consensus.
Examples aren’t just limited to Scottish devolution. We only need to look elsewhere in the UK to see that all the major changes, such as in N I and in the recent One Wales referendum success have all been based on wide consensus.
#125 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 10:09 pm
Fair enough, that’s a convincing argument Alex. Joe Bloggs is more likely to vote for a huge change if he felt he played a part in the process and was asked his opinion.
I still think its unworkable though, not that should necessarily stop it being attempted.
#126 by James on May 25, 2011 - 7:49 am
Anyone who chooses not to participate has excluded themselves from the process. Very different to being excluded by the Government.
#127 by Alex Ingram on May 25, 2011 - 8:28 pm
Amazingly there’s a bit of the Labour arguments about this in the second volume of Alastair Campbell’s diaries, and a bit of the run up to the first Scottish elections. Dewar doesn’t seem to have had much respect from the big hitters in London, but most amusingly there’s a note about a meeting where Brown reacts with incredulity to Dewar explaining that the voting system means a Labour (or any party) majority is very unlikely. It makes it all the more clear that the fact that we finally got pretty much what the Convention had agreed was only due to Dewar being insistent.
#128 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:44 pm
With devolution, people that wanted devolution got together and talked about what they wanted and independence was off the table.
So for equivalence, any discussion on the shape of independence should be between pro-independence folk. I think it would be worth doing nonetheless.
#129 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 11:47 pm
Would pro-independence Labour folk be welcome?
#130 by aonghas on May 25, 2011 - 12:22 pm
If they brought cake.
#131 by James on May 25, 2011 - 12:24 pm
Now we’re getting somewhere.
#132 by Aidan Skinner on May 25, 2011 - 2:47 pm
I’ll even throw in some Mackies icecream
#133 by aonghas on May 24, 2011 - 9:46 pm
How much does Australia contribute to fund the monarchy? Genuinely curious.
#134 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 9:57 pm
Did a bit of digging on this. Australia (and Canada etc) don’t pay any taxes towards the Queen; only when there’s a state visit or directly to the Queen’s representative in these countries (the Governor General in Australia for example). I’ve often wondered this myself so now we both know!
(Unless Yahoo Answers has gotten it horrendously wrong of course….)
Scotland could have a Governor General. Nominate Darius.
#135 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 10:19 pm
The monarchy’s relationship to Scotland has always been different. Peter Thomson argues, based on the wording of the treaties etc, that it was the kingdom that was united not the crown, which remain two i.e. Queen of England and Queen of Scots. Maybe this is why the monarchy is so keen to behave as if Holyrood House, with its annual garden parties, is a Scottish equivalent to Buck House.
The Scottish state would be responsible for paying for Holyrood House and for the queen’s expenses when she is there, including any garden parties. I suspect that until we vote to get rid of the monarchy there would be a certain tendency to keep as much of the trappings as possible, if only for the prestige and tourist value.
#136 by Alex Buchan on May 24, 2011 - 10:33 pm
Thinking more about it getting rid of the monarchy would be a bigger deal for Scotland than for probably anywhere, except England (and probably parts of NI). She has two of her main residences in Scotland. In fact more than two if you include Marr Lodge and the Castle of May.
So we would, effectively, be disowning one of our own, if you take the Scottish government’s position of treating anyone who lives in Scotland as a Scottish citizen. Comer to think of it would she qualify for a vote in the referendum.
#137 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 10:40 pm
I’ll be honest Alex, I’m totally unexcited by the idea of a referendum involving the monarchy in any way, as part of an independence vote or not. They cost me 64p a year and I rather like them though disagree with the principle. All in all, really not fussed.
I really am surprised that the monarchy has emerged as the big issue from James’ post.
#138 by The Burd on May 24, 2011 - 10:41 pm
Me too. But there’s nowt so queer as folk!
#139 by James on May 24, 2011 - 10:53 pm
Yeah, it was just one instance of a top-down approach, and a slow approach, which together I think will have a negative impact on the prospects of success.
#140 by James on May 24, 2011 - 11:14 pm
Also, the monarchy is an issue for the referendum whether I raise it or not, just like the currency, defence, what rights a constitution would protect, what electoral system we’d use, all that. Just one problem amongst many with the “we’ll deal with it later – meanwhile we’ve got a weak and vague top-down version of independence you can vote for” approach.
#141 by Graham on May 24, 2011 - 11:22 pm
Does the fact that it has emerged as the big issue tell us that people do have an opinion on it, even if they generally don’t shout about it?
It’s not at all about money for me. Indeed I’d pay multiples of your 64p a year to be rid of the the monarchy. It is the institution and what it represents that is the issue, not the inidividual royal family members. They could be the nicest people on earth but that’s not the point. Simply put, should our new Scotland value hereditary privilege and class over democracy and meritocracy? Not a hard one, I’d have thought.
#142 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 11:32 pm
I would say three things (1) Is the current system really so broken that it requires the upheaval of changing?, (2) the Royal Family generates huge wealth for the UK, is it worth cashing those chips in? and (3) no-one would set up a new Royal Family from scratch these days but we have one now and what, practically, would it involve to strip them of their titles and favour? (to be fair, there might be an easy answer to that one involving a Pickford’s lorry or two)
#143 by douglasmclellan on May 24, 2011 - 11:45 pm
That first question could easily apply to the whole independence question.
#144 by Aidan Skinner on May 24, 2011 - 11:50 pm
As could 3. And the cost savings of sharing things like the DWP, DVLA, HMRC, one set of embassies also mean 2 applies.
On that basis I assume Jeff would vote no to independence, were he to be allowed a vote. 😉
#145 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 11:55 pm
Well, it depends, would we still have a Queen 😉
I’d probably vote Yes, though less for independence itself and more to try to forcibly inject a positive, can-do attitude into many otherwise rather negative and dour Scots.
#146 by Jeff on May 24, 2011 - 11:52 pm
Indeed! And, in large numbers, probably will.
#147 by Aidan Skinner on May 25, 2011 - 12:26 am
We seem to have reached the limit on threaded comments!
Jeff, I fear it’ll take more than independence to bring about a fundamental change like that. Unless Alex Salmond’s going to physically detach Scotland from Britain and tow us to somewhere off Spain…
#148 by aonghas on May 25, 2011 - 12:23 pm
“There shall be a Darius, King of Scots
I like the sound of that”
#149 by TheMainstand on May 24, 2011 - 9:52 pm
2doctors-you miss the point. The Scots have no other choice than to vote SNP (and Margo), cos the other parties are not evebn trying to engage with Scots voters. I am surprised you get money for saying the things you say, because they are so obviously out of touch with Scots voters.
I believe if it comes down to you(and Lab, Tory, LibDem and others) excluding the Scotian-ground up scream of experience-we will vote for positive change every time.
The Greens have become another “yes but…” party. If you’re still involved then the Scottish Greens will collapse.
Scotland has lots of poor places, and you and the other parties do not care enough to get involved with us.
About the referendum-your points are practically meaningless. Most importantly, will it be after the UK election? This eems the most relevant point to me.
#150 by Una on May 24, 2011 - 9:55 pm
I think it needs time, but has to be focussed. If the debate rumbles on for too long without clarity I kinda think people will get sick to death of it, especially if it’s an ill-tempered conversation.
I support independence but I cringe at some of the stuff I read. I also loathe the term ‘nationalist’ – as many potential supporters of a referendum do – so people should stop polarising the debate with all this ugly unionist/nationalist nonsense and change the record.
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#151 by Graham on May 24, 2011 - 10:24 pm
If people are invited to discuss what an independent Scotland could look like then perhaps we might welcome their willingness to engage, not shout them down or dismiss their opinions as unimportant distractions just because we disagree.
If it is legitimate to advance the vision of an independent Scotland as sharing, for example, the British Army and the monarchy, amongst other things, then it is equally legitimate for others advance alternative visions. If I was being honest I’d have to say that I find the gradual approach to the monarchy issue unconvincing. I’m not at all clear who it really is that’s afraid of addressing the issue and why. Do we want a new Scotland or do we not? Do we want change to be real and substantial or cosmetic? I think there will be only one referendum; I don’t see there being any appetite, public or otherwise, for further referenda in the following term. It’s a no sale for me on that score, I’m afraid.
The monarchy is only one important issue. It appears to me that all we are being offered is a diluted form of independence, one which looks very different to that enjoyed by every other independent nation on this planet. We really deserve and could do much better than that. I’m unenthused.
#152 by Gryff on May 24, 2011 - 10:30 pm
What if we assume that an independence referendum will be lost? Then holding it late means the SNP have the maximum time in which they can use the threat of potential independence to leverage more powers for the Scottish Parliament, they can also use the time to maximise a third option. As a strategy goes it sounds pretty good.
#153 by douglas clark on May 24, 2011 - 10:34 pm
It has been argued that the Nationalist vote is ‘soft’ on the issue of independence. Meaning that not everyone that has voted SNP would vote for independence. I think that that is true.
But it is equally the case that Labour and the Liberals have had strong(ish) traditions of Home Rule. So, it is reasonable to assume that some of their voters, if not their Parties may have independence leanings.
I think that the SNP – who are the sponsors of this referendum – really do need to reach out to these voters in other parties if they want to achieve independence. The process of engaging these voters in a conversation may be difficult although social media might be at least a part of the solution.
I also think it is becoming imperative that some sort of preliminary draft of a constitution needs to be forthcoming soon, even if it is merely in a skeletal form.
For instance, the conclusion I would reach in relation to this discussion would be to have a paragraph to this effect:
“At the date of independence the Queen will be invited to remain on the Throne of Scotland as a means of providing continuity. As the people of Scotland will be sovereign if this referendum passes then it would be – at some future date – possible to readdress this issue through both the Scottish Parliament and a referendum of the people.”
#154 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 10:23 am
The Queen will be on the throne though that is the thing. Independence in practical terns means the end of the Union of the Parliaments. It is exactly as Dave Coull laid out – Independence means the transfer of all of the powers which are currently reserved.
That obviously includes powers over the constitution – including the Monarchy – but the day after independence the Queen will still be the Queen. It would require an Act of the new independent Scottish Parliament to remove her.
#155 by DougtheDug on May 24, 2011 - 11:18 pm
The timing of the referendum will be crucial but the first thing to consider is that all those who want a no result in the referendum want it now and what they don’t want is any long campaign which lays out the arguments for independence.
I’m also a little wary of the language used in this article like, “Holyrood’s first No Excuses Session”, because as far as I’m aware the SNP has never used the fact that it is a minority government to excuse any of its decisions in parliament from freezing the council tax to releasing Megrahi. The last session was excuse free so I’m not sure how this has come to be the first, “No Excuses Session”, unless the wording has been chosen to imply without evidence that the SNP used excuses in the last session of parliament.
There is always a cost to governing but there is also a wage. If people believe that you are competent and truthful and doing your best for the country then it’s a win-win situation. The electorate aren’t stupid. Since the SNP didn’t make any, “destructive cuts”, in the last session people are well aware that the SNP will try and minimise the damage coming from Westminster and they also know that the Scottish Government is financed by a Westminster block grant which is decided by the slash and burn government policies in Westminster.
What I find depressing is the number of commenters who witter on about what independence actually means in an orgy of doubt and distraction. I suggest that you take a look at countries like Finland, Norway, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Austria and use them as templates for what independence means. There are plenty of other examples round Europe. What the negotiations will be about will be on subjects like how the UK’s national debt will be split, what the sea boundaries will be, what border controls if any will be in place, customs unions and who gets what as far as the overseas territories are concerned.
A constitution, plans for a defence force and currency will have to be presented to the electorate before the vote so there is no postponement. These areas will be decided on before the referendum and as far as the Monarchy goes my own sentiments are to take things one step at a time. First we get our country and then we get our republic.
As a member of the SNP I would ask you to send the plans for the late, vague referendum to me as I’ve seen no plans to have one of those and I feel I’m missing out on information I should have. The whole article here is predicated on the “what if” vision of the SNP failing in Holyrood this session, slumping in the polls and then having the referendum with no clear picture of the independent Scotland which they envisage beyond a vague slogan that it’s going to be good.
If you want to shape the future of an independent Scotland why don’t you join the SNP because they’re only reason we’re having this current conversation on the possible shape of an independent Scotland which has a good chance of becoming reality for the first time in 300 years.
#156 by James on May 24, 2011 - 11:32 pm
Thanks Doug, but much as I want to see an independent Scotland, I’m more concerned about inequality and the future of our environment, which is why I’m in the Greens, not the SNP.
#157 by Graham on May 25, 2011 - 9:55 am
Jeff, it would be possible for you to continue your fondness for the royal family even in a fully democratic (non-monarchical) independent Scotland. The royal family would still exist as head of state of rump UK. Would you be happy with that?
I’m arguing that state-sponsored hereditary privilege has no place in a fully democratic 21st century independent Scotland. If we are to have substantial constitutional change in the form of independence then it would be shameful to squander the opportunity to shape it in the most democratic of terms. I’m happy to move away from words like republican or anti-monarchism if it makes anyone more comfortable with the discussion. Incidentally, this is another area where I find the position of Liberal Democrats utterly astonishing – deaf mutedness or moderate royalism when they should be leading the fight for liberal democracy.
In respect of the royal family generating huge wealth for the UK: I’d be interested in seeing an objective statement of income and expenditure, particularly as it applies to Scotland. Is there a connection with the Crown Estates Commission issue here? I re-iterate though, it’s not at all about money for me.
I agree that nobody would set up a royal family from scratch these days and neither should they. Why not though? Because if would not fit a fresh 21st century democracy, which is what would we should be aiming for and I believe is achievable.
#158 by Jeff on May 25, 2011 - 10:10 am
Graham, you seem to be taking my nonchalance for the Royal Family as some sort of ardent support. What I’m saying is, I really don’t care what happens with them so in or out of an independent Scotland, rump UK or completely disbanded, it wouldn’t affect my vote.
I can see that this is a big issue for some people, which is fine, but not me. Wrapping it up so tightly with independence will, where I believe Indy and James’ arguments overlap suggests, kill off the chances for a Yes vote.
#159 by douglas clark on May 25, 2011 - 10:33 am
Jeff,
I think you are right. I do not see why we shouldn’t attempt to get as wide a consensus for independence as we can. It makes no sense to alienate people by tying in other issues. The point about independence is to recognise ourselves as the group who can most effectively take these decisions for ourselves. What Scottish folk are effectively being asked to do is to take responsibility over their own lives and their own body politic. Anything that is not directly germane to that should be treated as the irrelevance that it is. “Once you have the power, then you can decide on that”, should be the rallying cry.
#160 by James on May 25, 2011 - 10:38 am
So what kind of constitution will this post-independence Scotland have, and what’s the specific process for that decision?
You genuinely can’t brush this issue under the carpet, much as it might seem tempting to try.
#161 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 10:53 am
Nobody is trying to brush anything under the carpet.
Your points become increasingly preposterous.
On the one hand you say that the SNP should not get to decide the question on the referendum or the details of the settlement or the nature of the constitutional by ourselves and in the next breath accuse us of being vague and trying to sweep these matters under the carpet because we have not presented a gilt-bound Independence A-Z to you!
Ludicrous.
#162 by Tony on May 25, 2011 - 11:13 am
#163 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 11:27 am
I think it was that time last week when Alex Salmond held that press conference, decked in full Highland dress and a “Hey Jimmy” hat, drinking a deep-fried bottle of Irn Bru and chomping shortbread with cholestoral on top, saying “och aye the noo, in an independent Scotland, we’ll nae ate onythin’ if it’s nae huggis. DOON WI’ THE SASSENACH OWERLAIRDS!!!”, before raising his claymore sword and marching onto Wembley to reclaim the goalposts.
#164 by Graham on May 25, 2011 - 11:19 am
Jeff, not at all mate. I detected your nonchalance (great word, by the way). I genuinely wanted to offer counter-arguments to those which you advanced in support of the status quo because they will surely be raised again and I need the practice. I do appreciate that not everyone feels strongly about the monarchy either way but I tend to find that rational discussion of the issue reveals it to be less benign and more material than is often suggested. I acknowledge the risk of alienating independence supporters and that is certainly not my aim. However, I’m confident that the argument can be won but only if it’s had in the first place. And the potential rewards I find irresistible. If the 1997 television poll was accurate to any degree, what is it that we are so cautious of? If there were polls reflecting similar levels of support for independence then we’d naturally be delighted and shouting it from the rooftops. I’m trying to get my head around the contradiction.
#165 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 12:28 pm
The discussion about the monarchy is not rational though. We are told – as though it were a fact – that countries which have a monarchy are less demiocratic than countries which do not.
Is this actually true however – or is it simply an opinion?
It’s obviously a bit difficult for any of us to judge countries in terms of how democratic they are. But the Economist Intelligence Unit usually has a go and makes the judgement on consistent and measutable qualities. The 2010 rankings were as follows:
1. Norway
2. Iceland
3. Denmark
4. Sweden
5. New Zealand
6. Australia
7. Finland
8. Switzerland
9. Canda
10. Netherlands.
Seven of those countries are constitutional monarchies.
That doesn’t make me support the monarchy – in a referendum I would probably vote to abolish it. But it does make me question sweeping statements about constitutional monarchies being undemocratic. I think the quality of democracy depends on many different things and the monarchy is pretty much irrelevant.
#166 by Gryff on May 25, 2011 - 10:31 pm
I should have read on! This is exactly the point I try to make further up.
I have my own ideas about how we could tread a middle way, but I am happy taht people are pointing out that constitutional monarchy is not all bad.
#167 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 11:19 am
Some people seem to be missing the point of what independence is about. It’s not about trying to create the world’s first perfect state in one fell swoop – it’s about giving us the tools to allow us to work towards that.
If your goal is to abolish the monarchy in Scotland, then your first step is Scottish independence.
If your goal is the end of nuclear weapons in Scotland, then your first step is Scottish independence.
If your goal is to live in a country that doesn’t poke its nose into other countries’ business, starting illegal wars and generally trying to prove it’s still the big boy on the world stage, then your first step is Scottish independence.
If your goal is to live in a country that is powered exclusively through renewable energy sources, your first step is Scottish independence.
Whatever your goal for Scotland, your best chance of success – if not your only chance of success – is by beginning with an independent Scotland, where we can begin with a clean slate and decide what kind of country we’re going to be. We can ruminate all we want about what an independent Scotland should look like – and indeed, it’s exactly what we should be doing – but without independence, ruminating is all it is.
If anyone seriously believes there is a better chance of getting the UK government to stop bombing countries, overthrow the monarchy and ban all nuclear activity than there is of getting an independent Scotland to do these things, then by all means, vote in favour of the union and be ready to be disappointed.
Learn from the SNP: the fundamentalists were opposed to devolution, because they had an “all or nothing” attitude, whereas the gradualists realised it was the first step towards greater independence. The gradualists won, and we are now a mere four years away from the Scottish people being given the chance to have their say over the independence of their nation – something that has been denied us for 300 years.
The same applies to the monarchy: we can remain in the union and never get a say over the head of state; or we can vote for independence and eventually get to ditch the Queen, which is almost certainly what the vast majority of Scots (barring a certain section of Glaswegian society) wants, or at the very least would not be opposed to.
#168 by Graham on May 25, 2011 - 11:45 am
Doug, you make many valid points. How consistent is it that some issues are tied to independence (anti-nuclear, sharing the british army and currency) but others (monarchy) are kicked into the long grass? Who gets to decide which issues are important enough to be tied to independence and which are not?
Independence should mean the transfer of all powers unless there are convincing arguments for any of them not to be. I sense this being increasingly turned on it’s head to something along the lines of powers are transferred if there is a convincing argument for doing so, otherwise they will not be. Offering gradualism versus fundamentalism as a basis for argument is a poor substitute for debate.
#169 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 12:39 pm
The thing is, things like anti-nuclear and the currency will not be enshrined in the independence referendum. The referendum is about one thing only: gaining the powers to allow Scotland to make these decisions. As I say, without independence, we can’t make any of these decisions, so as welcome as the debate is, without independence in place it is all wishful thinking. It’s like dreaming about becoming a rock star without making that first step of buying a guitar. Indeed, voting against independence just because there has been no promise to implement all your favoured positions straight away would be like not buying that guitar because you’ve been told you won’t get instant stardom.
Well, kind of.
#170 by douglas clark on May 25, 2011 - 11:26 am
James,
Well, I think there has to be some honesty about this. There are two issues here, not one.
Firstly, independence is what the referendum will be about. It is up to you, James of Better Nation, to decide whether you want that or not. As part of that decision making process you really do have to decide whether the views of the majority of Scots are not, at the very least, more sympatico to your own world view. In other words, do you think that, on balance, a Scottish government would be more or less likely to try to deliver an environment within which your own ideas could flourish. If you think yes, then vote for independence, if you think no, then, vote for the status quo. One thing you should be clear about is that you are not voting for the SNP, you are voting for an independent Scotland. My own strategy on this is to vote SNP for the first government post election, for the sake of stability, and then probably go back to voting along liberal / green lines therafter.
That is what you would, in reality, be voting for.
However, sec0ondly, I appreciate that people will not buy a pig in a poke. It is therefore necessary to put some flesh on the bones of what a Scottish constitution would contain. Rather than the mechanistic approach that you wish me to take l would merely outline things like our commitment to the European Convention on Human Rights and the primacy of the Scottish people. We should point to our unfailing commitment to democracy.
Beyond that, almost all of the negotiation will be politics. I have fairly well developed ideas about what should happen to the British Overseas Territories – my moral high ground being that they should be jointly administered and protected by Edinburgh and London post independence. I actually think that that is more important than whether the Queen gets to call herself Queen of Scots in much the same way as she is Queen for sixteen other independent nations, Including Jamaica and Papua New Guinea!
So, in conclusion, we either trust one another or we trust Westminster. It’s that simple.
#171 by The oracle on May 25, 2011 - 11:26 am
I can assure you the referendum date is already planned.
The date of the next uk general election.
All the unionist money will be tied up in getting votes for mps. It’s the only sensible date choice.
#172 by Aidan Skinner on May 25, 2011 - 2:51 pm
That would be subject to *such* a legal challenge you have no idea
#173 by The oracle on May 26, 2011 - 8:14 am
Absolute rubbish.
No more so than any other referendum.
Av was the same day – no challenge.
Baseless argument. (and they wouldn’t have the money to pay for a challenge either)
#174 by Aidan Skinner on May 26, 2011 - 11:06 am
AV was a much less complicated issue, with far fewer implications – independence is such a big issue it surely deserves to be decided absent other arguments?
Or do you think it’s acceptable to win independence by whatever means necessary, stacking the deck as much as possible?
#175 by Interested on May 25, 2011 - 12:27 pm
An excellent, thought-provoking article (and spot on in my opinion), but so many of the comments seem to miss the point. Forget about the specific issue of the monarchy. How will an independent Scotland decide on these things? What will the legislative and government structures look like? Will we be stuck with only a parliament and no upper house (to balance out the short-termism of parliamentary politics)? Will we stick with our current voting systems? What involvement will people have in the new nation? Will we have a more federated structure giving local authorities and communities more self-determination, or a continuation of a highly centralised structure?
People have cited Denmark and Norway of what and independent Scotland would look like. But they have different structures than we would have if all we get is a simple transfer of powers. The form of a new Scottish state matters hugely, because it will determine what kind of nation we live in. Iran is a democratic republic. If that is the form of democracy on offer, will you vote for it? I assume Indy will because he seems to believe independence is independence; you’re with us or against us.
The other issue that many seem to completely miss is the attitude of some SNP on this discussion that the form of independence on offer is “their” decision. Well, as a majority government that’s the SNP’s prerogative, but then the referendum will be lost. If people don’t feel ownership in what’s on offer, they won’t vote for such a major change. And excluding people because they’re not 100% independence-or-bust is foolish.
I write this as someone who would like to see independence succeed — but only with the right structures so that we are a properly democratic and just nation. If we end up with a US-style democracy where money rules, corporate lobbyists have more say than people, and sensible intelligent debate has no place, I’m not interested.
#176 by James on May 25, 2011 - 12:39 pm
It’s such a relief when someone actually gets the argument.
#177 by Jeff on May 25, 2011 - 12:46 pm
Bravo!
#178 by setindarkness on May 25, 2011 - 1:09 pm
Excellent comment.
BetNat Gang, please quote this in a new post to highlight it – will be lost down at comment no. 160
#179 by Tony on May 25, 2011 - 1:30 pm
totally disagree!
How on earth when no-one knew that the SNP were going to do so well could they have that level of detail, ready and at hand.
Citing Iran and saying that (I suppose he means Indy) people are advocating ‘excluding’ people because they are not 100% for independence is just utter rubbish.
#180 by daveinmaryburgh on May 25, 2011 - 5:31 pm
But shouldn’t this be what is discussed in the lead up to the referendum?
#181 by Doug Daniel on May 25, 2011 - 3:30 pm
“How will an independent Scotland decide on these things?”
Well, on constitutional issues like the monarchy and currency, we’ll hold referendums, as these are things the people should have a direct say on. As regards to the legislative and governmental structures, it’s important we look outside the UK and see how other countries do it. Does every country have an upper chamber? How do unicarmel parliaments work in other places? Your description of being “stuck” with just the one chamber suggests you don’t think unicarmel parliaments are sufficient – this may be due to years of studying the successes and failures various uni- and bicarmel parliaments in Europe, or it may just be that you’ve fallen into the trap of assuming a second chamber is required just because it’s how Westminster works (or somewhere between those two extremes); either way, it needs to be discussed thoroughly in public. However, I think the actual structure of the post-independence parliament would be something that could be decided in much the same way as the structure of devolution.
Would we keep the current voting system? Well, it’s a pretty good system. It could certainly be improved by being more proportional and fairer to smaller parties, but I would suggest we could quite happily stick with d’Hondt in the meantime, at least for the first post-independence general election. As someone who would very much advocate a larger body of MSPs (at least 150, preferably about 170), it would certainly be a bit easier to be fairer to smaller parties simply by increasing the number of MSPs elected using the list.
While I think the actual structure of Scottish legislative processes and voting systems post-independence are fascinating subjects, and things that do indeed need to be fleshed out beforehand (probably far moreso than the currency, monarchy or shared defences, as we need to know who will be making and implementing these decisions), I do think they are similarly distracting from the whole point of independence. I get the impression you favour a bicarmel parliament, and a federalised structure for local government. You certainly don’t favour US-style democracy (who does?) But it’s worth noting that the USA is a federal government, with a bicarmel parliament structure. So you see, it’s not the number of chambers that determines how democratic a nation is; it’s how you use what structures you have. Personally, I don’t think there is any danger of Scotland modelling itself on America. But if people lose favour in independence just because they think a unicarmel parliament will be less democratic than a bicarmel parliament, or because they think d’Hondt isn’t proportional enough, then we might as well just give up now, because we’re never going to decide on the exact, precise details in a way that pleases every single person (or 50% of the population plus one) completely, with no compromises.
#182 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 6:22 pm
Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, New Zealand, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg all have unicameral parliaments. Suggests to me that most smaller countries don’t feel the need for bicameral set-ups.
As for the electoral system – I would prefer if we had STV for all elections – and that is SNP policy.. Holyrood could be converted to STV easily enough I would think to create a much more coterminous system.
#183 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 12:57 pm
In point of fact, Interested, James’ article is riddled with errors.
Issues which he claimed were surrounded with uncertainty such as the currency, defence, a formal constitution etc are actually not clouded with uncertainty at all. The SNP has published whole tranches of documents regarding these matters. James just hasn’t read them.
Likewise the SNP has not tried to guarantee the monarchy as Scotland’s long-term post-independence settlement as James alleges. That is another error.
james’ allegation that the SNP might want to sign up to the Euro once the people have signed their “blank cheque” is equally false. In every single thing the SNP has published regarding the Euro it has been made very clear that Scotland would only enter the Euro subject to a referendum. If the Scottish people don’t want to join the Euro then Scotland won’t join the Euro.
I could go on but you get my point. If people could start by addressing the arguments and proposals that the SNP has made that might be a good starting off point and would certainly be a bit more constructive.
Finally the kind of country an independent Scotland will become will be decided by the Scottish people. If you believe that the Scottish people are likely to create an Iranian-style theocracy or a US-style democracy where money rules then by all means don’t vote for it. It would be interesting to know why you think your friends and neighbours are likely to go down that road however, I cannot personally detect any such tendencies among the electorate.
#184 by James on May 25, 2011 - 1:01 pm
I give up. It’s like debating with a brick wall.
#185 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 1:07 pm
Alternatively you could just accept that you were wrong when you said that the SNP plans a late term, vague referendum and start again.
I won’t be holding my breath though.
#186 by oldchap on May 25, 2011 - 1:07 pm
As a supporter of independence I am rather concerned by some of the attitudes coming through here – the vast majority of undecideds on the issue are going to need real justification to vote for such a big change and simply swatting down their questions isn’t going to make them want to vote in favour. It’s little different to how supporters of the union often (though admittedly not always) make their case, with vague arguments about how we’re stronger together; how is that so, specifically? By the same count, people want to know how Scotland being independent would specifically improve their lot. Yes – power would lie in their hands. Yes – Scotland would get to decide on the monarchy, currency, defence etc by itself. But we need to make that clear, and better involving people in discussion of these issues through the likes of a constitutional convention now would go a long way towards illustrating that.
We really don’t want to lower the debate to the “us vs them” level of the AV one but that’s how much of this thread looks – and that’s among people with an interest in politics. Take that kind of argument to a national level and either folks will vote no because they didn’t like the argument, or they’ll not bother at all, which amounts to the same.
#187 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 1:10 pm
Nobody here is really undecided.
James is a spin doctor by profession.
#188 by douglasmclellan on May 25, 2011 - 2:56 pm
I am undecided.
#189 by James on May 25, 2011 - 1:14 pm
Thanks, exactly, that’s the discussion I tried to contribute to. But apparently, despite being a supporter of independence and trying to make sure it passes, I’m dishonest, negative, blah blah blah.
#190 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 1:19 pm
Maybe it would be instructive to read what was said in the Greens manifesto, which I am guessing you played at least some part in drafting.
“We’ll argue for a multi-option referendum with choices
including the status quo, a stronger Scottish Parliament
with powers defined through a participative process, and
full independence based on a written constitution, and
we will back this third option.”
Would you call what you are doing here backing the third option? Because I wouldn’t.
#191 by Una on May 26, 2011 - 9:02 am
well your original post was a little sneery – ‘great puddin’ and ‘unionisht conshpiracy’ etc etc. A negative tone is set and it’s not a good place to start if you want to demonstrate a positive interest in an inclusive constitutional debate. Rather than slagging the SNP’s approach – the only party to have made any effort on this, to general derision- why not come up with some positive proposals for debate?
#192 by James on May 26, 2011 - 9:13 am
A couple of running jokes make the suggestions negative (and the second is negative about whom?)? Yet the folk who supported the people I called “the Axis of Resignations” are happy to take part. This odd combination of touchy and innate superiority appear now to be the sole property of SNP supporters.
And personally I think the a quicker (and, for my money, more likely to be successful) referendum based on an open democratic constitutional convention is a positive proposal for debate. Sorry if that doesn’t work for you.
Finally, the idea that SNP have any interest in inclusive constitutional debate isn’t supported by the current evidence. Please don’t cite either the National Conversation or the Independence Convention in response: I am too familiar with both for either to be a credible suggestion.
#193 by Tony on May 25, 2011 - 1:35 pm
Agree with much of what you say, advocate it even…………..but you are wrong about anyone pinning it down to ‘us vs them’. That is simply not what is happening, or what the discussion is about. It is about challenging thoughts and ideas, a good healthy debate if you ask me and one that is helping to focus minds, well mine anyhow.
#194 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 1:53 pm
I probably have been a bit too personal in challenging James.
But the fact is the Greens made a manifesto commitment to backing full independence based on a written constitution. No ifs, no buts.
They didn#t say they would back it as long as the people decide the referendum question as well as the answer. Nor did it say they would back it provided the future of the monarchy is decided before independence is voted on. It did not mention the monarchy, nor did it mention the Euro, nor did it mention any of the other caveats that are being raised nnow.
I realise, of course, that the Greens probably had no idea at the time the manifesto was drafted that they would be called on to actually make good on that promise but there you go, that happens to the best of parties.
#195 by James on May 25, 2011 - 2:06 pm
I don’t mind the personal. I mind the assumption that if you don’t agree with the SNP official position both on the objective and the methods you’re effectively a traitor. And I mind the serial and apparently willful misreading of my position.
But it’s absurd to say that the Green manifesto support for a written constitution means any written constitution. You’re also ignoring the part of the manifesto you cited about a participative process, not to mention this bit:
#196 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 2:20 pm
You don’t even know what the official SNP positon is on half of these issues, never mind whether or not you agree with it.
I have absolutely no problem with a convention or public participation and neither does the SNP. Indeed you have consistently failed to acknowledge that we tried to get that going four years ago when the National Conversation was launched.
What I do have a problem with is you trying to put conditions on an independence referendum, whether it is in connection with the monarchy or whatever else, when you have no mandate to do that. You said you would back full independence with a written constitution. That is what is on offer.
If you have questions about the process take them up with the Scottish Government. Have you even contacted them to ask for any clarification on these points? Or have you just launched into a public critique before attempting any discussion?
What I suspect is that you are looking for any excuse to renege on your commitment. If I am wrong about that I will be very glad to be wrong. But on the basis of your approach thus far that is what I suspect.
#197 by James on May 25, 2011 - 2:25 pm
Every aggressive and ill-informed comment you make here turns off the neutrals and the swing voters.
If a proper inclusive constitutional convention is really secret SNP policy, great. Bring it out into the open.
#198 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 3:15 pm
Perhaps you can show me one comment I have made that is ill-informed – or just plain wrong? Just one will do.
Also I am interested in the idea that this blog is for neutrals and swing voters. I rather thought it was written and read by political anoraks – that is certainly what your “raison d’etre” section says as well.
Regarding your other comments, you refuse again to acknowledge the efforts that the SNP made to engage others in the debate on Scotland’s future in the past four years. It is really a bit rich to accuse us of not being inclusive enough because most sections of civic and political Scotland ignored the whole issue as they did not believe a referendum would ever happen.
Obviously the situation has changed.
But let’s face it, if the SNP attempted to set up a Constitutional Convention now you would be the first to accuse us of trying to control the debate.
So why don’t the Greens do something at this stage in the way of setting up broader forums? I think you would have to admit the SNP has done most of the heavy lifting in terms of getting us to this stage – and there is the ongoing matter of governing devolved Scotland. I think it is your turn to make a contribution don’t you?
#199 by aonghas on May 25, 2011 - 3:27 pm
I mind the assumption that if you don’t agree with the SNP official position both on the objective and the methods you’re effectively a traitor.
Sorry, but you’re being such a drama queen here James. I didn’t even see anyone implying that, let alone saying it outright. You of all people decrying aggressive and ill-informed comments is rich when you’re coming out with strident nonsense like that.
#200 by James on May 25, 2011 - 3:34 pm
I’m sorry to have to keep quoting the same bit of nonsense. Perhaps you missed it above.
Or, actually..
Or, finally.
#201 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 3:54 pm
Wtf? At no point have I called anyone a “traitor”.
I have said I think you would like to renege on the commitment the Greens made to back independence in a referendum. And I think you would- because, in my opinion, you don’t really believe in independence.
How you get from that to me calling you a traitor is anyone’s guess. You can’t betray a cause you don’t believe in. And even if someone did change their mind about independence I would just think they had changed their minds I wouldn’t think they were a traitor. This site is meant to be for grown ups after all.
#202 by John Ruddy on May 25, 2011 - 9:31 pm
This assumption is something I have been talking about for some time. It seems to be part of the SNP mindset. You’re not a true Scotsman unless you believe every utterance that comes out of Alex salmonds mouth. Or worse, you’re a traitor.
#203 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 10:50 am
Show me where I or any other independence supporter has made any such statement on this blog or withdraw that.
#204 by John Ruddy on May 26, 2011 - 5:48 pm
You just need to read the scotsman comment pages for 2 minutes to find that out! Blether with Brian’s comment pages are full of that type of person too.
Its the ‘If you dont agree with the SNP you dont have Scotlands interest at heart’ or ‘the SNP are the only party which believes in Scotland’ etc etc…
Why do you think there are relatively few posters from the other parties on these sites? Its because its hard to take being called a traitor (or worse) on a daily, if not hourly basis.
#205 by CassiusClaymore on May 25, 2011 - 1:35 pm
First, independence.
Then, dump the monarchy.
Simple enough. It’s a long game.
CC
#206 by Interested on May 25, 2011 - 1:36 pm
Whether the Scottish people genuinely have the ability to decide these things, or whether it’s a privileged few, depends entirely on the structure of a new nation.
Something as important as a nation’s constitution should be drawn up with wide input from all society, and not owned by a political party. Claiming that the SNP has done the work and everyone else should get on board is not going to win a referendum!
The SNP will own the referendum process, as it has a right to. But if it wants to win the referendum, the proposals and arguments must not be owned by the SNP, or any other single political entity, but by Scottish society as a whole. Producing a document and ‘consulting’ people on it is the kind of divisive, adversarial process that turns people off.
#207 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 1:51 pm
Interested – duh.
Of course the constitution should be drawn up with a wide input.
But you have to start somewhere. The SNP has a draft constitution for an independent Scotland which was drawn up in 2002. I suggest that is the best starting off point.
I would also have to say that it has been open to people for many years to get involved in this debate through the Scottish Independence Convention if not through the SNP.
It is a little bit unfair to blame the SNP because most people wree not really interested until we won the election a few weeks ago.
#208 by Tony on May 25, 2011 - 1:58 pm
Point of interest, I see that the UK supreme court is interfering with Scots law yet again;
http://tinyurl.com/3okw9uw
Where will it aw end? Was it a devolution or human rights issue at all, as I thought it was an issue over evidence disclosure………………what that has to do with English judges I don’t know.
#209 by Dave Coull on May 25, 2011 - 2:21 pm
While it’s a very interesting article, the statement “everyone is still wrong about the timing of the referendum” only applies to the politicians and political parties. I haven’t been, and I’m not. I have consistently advocated a referendum without delay. But a year’s time might be okay I suppose, provided that is definite, and not liable to be postponed yet again.
I don’t see any need for a multi-option referendum. Since there now appears to be wide cross-party agreement on the need for the transfer of substantial additional powers to Holyrood, that can be taken as the “status quo”, and all that is needed is yes or no to the further step of independence.
As for the question to be put in a referendum, little thought appears to have been given by anybody to this. So here is the suggestion I’ve been putting forward:
“At present, the Scottish Parliament has authority over some policies, but important areas such as finance, welfare, defence, and foreign affairs are reserved to Westminster. Should the Scottish Government enter into negotiations with the British Government for transfer of full sovereignty to Scotland?â€
(Recently, both unionists and media journalists have been asking “but what do you mean by ‘independence’?†– the advantage of the referendum wording which I’m suggesting is, it answers that question. Independence means the transfer of ALL of the powers which are currently reserved.)
#210 by James on May 25, 2011 - 2:23 pm
Sorry Dave, yes, I meant “the SNP and the Yoonyonisht Conshpirashy”, not everyone everyone. But your question doesn’t say what the constitution of an independent Scotland would be or even how it would be determined, and I’m afraid also therefore fails my pig/poke test.
#211 by Dave Coull on May 25, 2011 - 3:04 pm
The question to be asked should be kept as simple, and as straightforward, as possible. The more complications you introduce, the more confused the outcome is likely to be. If the question gets a decisive “yes”, then negotiations would begin for the transfer of ALL powers from Westminster to Holyrood. In the immediate aftermath of independence, the Queen would presumably remain as head of state. There could be another referendum, AFTER independence, on whether Scotland should keep the monarchy or become a republic. There could be other referendums, AFTER independence, on other constitutional issues also. But the priority must be independence first, because otherwise the Unionists will use all of these other issues as excuses for indefinite delay.
#212 by James on May 25, 2011 - 3:11 pm
That’s a reasonable view, fair enough, but I am sure that any uncertainty about the process and especially the nature of the constitution will be fully exploited by opponents of independence in the campaign. Putting it all off until later won’t solve that problem.
#213 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 4:26 pm
See if you had bothered to read the Scottish Government’s white paper published back in 2009 you would have seen it discuss a fully codified and written constitution which could be decided either by the Scottish Parliament,or, as is more customary for constitutional change, through a referendum.
Same goes for all the other issues you claim the SNP is vague on or is trying to sweep under the carpet. It’s all in there. It’s only 198 pages. This discussion must be nearly as long.
#214 by James on May 25, 2011 - 4:42 pm
Hilarious. This is the section of that document I assume you mean.
Which certainly does not resolve the problems you appear determined to ignore (even if, as I suspect, ignoring them risks the project itself).
#215 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 5:00 pm
What problems James?
Perhaps it would be easier if you spelled out exactly what you want to happen.
Because you know that the Greens took no part in the National Conversation. You just criticised it from the sidelines and it looks like the same thing here.
So tell us exactly what you want to take part in and we’ll see if that sounds like a plan.
#216 by James on May 25, 2011 - 5:03 pm
The original (widely ignored) post sets out the problems. It was, despite your tirades, an attempt to help ensure that a) a referendum passes, b) what specifically is approved is worth fighting for, and c) that the process involves the people rather than being handed down in tablets of stone from Ben Nevis. I assume you care about the first of those, even if the second and third seem immaterial to you.
And the National Conversation was nothing like an inclusive process. It was SNP Ministers going round the country talking to their own. I think I’ve been pretty clear that the Constitutional Convention would be the model. Does that not give you enough of an idea to be going on with?
#217 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 5:42 pm
No it doesn’t. You specifically accuse the SNP of wanting to delay decisions on the curency, the monarchy, defence and other matters until after the referendum which is simply untrue. Those matters are all addressed in the white paper. You may not agree with what the SNP says but there is no attempt to postpone or hide from these matters at all and you ought to acknowledge that.
You also say that the process must involve the people while going on in the next sentence to say the National Conversation was not inclusive but just the SNP going round the country talking to ther own.
If the SNP did set up a Constitutional Convention to discuss independence then you would say exactly the same about that, wouldn’t you?
Or if you are suggesting that we set up a Constitutional Convention to discuss all the options at what point would you suggest setting that up? Before or after the Scotland Bill is passed? Because the Scotland Bill is “Devo Max” isn’t it? So what would they be discussing while that is going through Westminster?
Or are you suggesting that we set up a Constitutional Convention to draft the constitution for an independent Scotland? That’s not a bad idea but it has to be drawn from people who a) support independence b) will work within the parameters set down by the white paper and the referendum (i.e it is about the transfer of power from Westminster to Holyrood,. It is not about instituting a Republic.) and c) the actual document will have to be drawn up by lawyers and approved by the Civil Service.
#218 by John Ruddy on May 25, 2011 - 9:40 pm
Why should a process designed to draw up the future of Scotland have to exclude people who dont want indepenedance? Wont they be living in this new Scotland? Wont they have a right to put forward proposals?
#219 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 2:45 pm
Why would Scotland opt to join Schengen when the UK and Ireland have not? That doesn’t make any sense and is certainly not SNP policy.
Type your comment here
#220 by Jeff on May 25, 2011 - 2:48 pm
Scotland could opt to join Schengen to show it is open for tourism and business. Being up in the far flung northern regions of the former United Kingdom, a strongly proactive approach to Europe may be required from the new Government and competitive advantages over Ireland/rUK would be sought after. This, arguably, could be one of them and a few passport controls on the M6 may be a small price to pay if it can be showin that more passport-free Swedes, Germans and French are flying in to spend their Euros….
I’m not saying it ‘will’ happen, but I am saying we can’t breezily dismiss passports at the border.
#221 by rlemkin on May 25, 2011 - 3:05 pm
I may be completely wrong here since it’s been a while since I looked at the EU but I thought we *have* got to sign up to Shengen if we were to join?
#222 by Aidan Skinner on May 25, 2011 - 5:09 pm
Yes, there’s no opt-out available for new members, which Scotland would be (although perhaps on a super-fast-track?).
Having just looked into this, I’m also not sure if a new member could opt out from the Euro – all of the 2004 and 2007 accession countries were obliged to join. Given the slightly uncertain future of the Euro I’m not sure how we’d fit in.
#223 by Indy on May 25, 2011 - 3:18 pm
Unless you can find a political party which is committed to an independent Scotland joining Schengen and setting up border controls then, yes, I think you can dismiss it.
#224 by The oracle on May 26, 2011 - 8:28 am
The uk and ireland have special acts outwith the eu regarding the land border. The uk would seek similar during indy talks.
Doesn’t and wouldn’t affect scotlands membership of anything.
#225 by Christina Carabini on May 25, 2011 - 3:08 pm
It still killed the whole question for a generation though..It was never off the agenda however and the successful referendum was held a mere eighteen years later.That second referendum didnt just happen a fortnight after someone thought to raise the issue again. Constitutional referendums are rare in UK politics and this was a rather short interval relatively speaking…It should be borne in mind that these referendums were not independence referendums but devolution referendums.
#226 by Kenny on May 25, 2011 - 3:52 pm
I think most right-minded types subscribe to the wisdom of an all-embracing debate that transcends the party political sphere. But isn’t it self-contradictory to champion this, which inevitably takes time, at the same time as a snap referendum?
The SNP are little over a fortnight back in office, and, as Indy pointed out, have yet to tackle the “i” word head on. Give them a chance…
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#227 by Erchie on May 25, 2011 - 5:40 pm
For those of us over a certain age, the bit in the area in “Life of Brian” has a certain resonance. Radical groups would rather pick over the minutae of doctrine than cooperate with what they agree on.
You could see that with the various Socialist X groups in the recent election. Collectively they did better than the racist parties, individually, not so much.
he SNP has had problems in the past “Purity of purpose and only one goal” doesn’t seem to go down with the electorate as well as someone willing to compromise.
It’s odd that James, who wants the SNP to avoid hubris, to be able to take into consideration the feelings of others, is somewhat doctrinal on this issue
I think the question of monarchy would be best left to an independent Scotland once it is independent. For a start off Holyrood would probably need reformed and there are a whole load of other questions than need settled.
Australia, NZ and Canada cope with a powerless figurehead, so we could muddle on for a few years.
If her Grace the present Queen should one day decide to shuffle off this mortal coil then the Scots Parliament, as it has done in the past (e.g. 1689 Claim of Right), can decide what to do about any successor. I would suggest this is the right time for a plebiscite on a republic.
#228 by Alexander Belic on May 26, 2011 - 3:41 am
If I understand James’ original post properly, he worries about the way many questions will be left unanswered until after the referendum. By leaving these decisions until later, voters are being asked to vote against the devil they know rather than being presented with a particular vision of a modern independent nation they can vote for.
The constitutional convention gave Labour a draft proposal for the 1997 referendum which became the Scotland Act, and I could see a lot of sense in the argument that a similar convention should come up with a proposal, it be submitted to the Parliament as the Independence Bill and a referendum held asking if you agreed or disagreed with what was being proposed.
But any concrete proposal like that would require Salmond and Cameron’s governments to begin negotiating the terms now, which the coalition seems reluctant to do.
#229 by James on May 26, 2011 - 8:04 am
Thanks Alexander. It’s not clear to me that it would require anything from the Westminster Government. Most of the issues (except for your point on the other thread about debt division and a small number of similar ones) would solely be a matter for the future Scottish Government and the Scottish people. This appears to be a hangover from the idea that the question should be as per the SNP’s last white paper – i.e. permission to negotiate.
Setting up a Convention to establish what would be put to the people in a referendum, including those negotiable elements, would require no-one’s permission. It’s what the National Conversation could have been if it had been properly open.
#230 by The oracle on May 26, 2011 - 8:33 am
The white paper q is worded like that for 2 reasons.
1. To get it past the old po as legal under devolution
2. Because of legal advice suggesting two referendums are required, first declare indy, then sort out structures and terms, then yeah or nay that.
#231 by James on May 26, 2011 - 8:54 am
And adding “on the basis of the proposals from the Constitutional Convention” would be be ultra vires why exactly?
#232 by Alexander Belic on May 26, 2011 - 2:03 pm
But it is surely these issues, those Kingdom-wide links that would form the bulk of any convention document? Sure there will be things we will change without need for external consultation. Our head of state has already been pretty extensivly discussed so I’m not going to go there, but for example, I think if the workload if the Parliament is to be expanded to include all these new powers, they may want to look into expanding the number of MSPs from 129, that’s something we can discuss amongst ourselves, and it doesn’t concern me if we do so before a referendum or after when they know whether or not there’s a real need for it.
But a lot of the stuff we need to know before independence we would really need to discuss and agree on with rUK – even our borders, the SNP would argue an independent Scotland should have the borders it entered the Union with while rUK will almost certainly push for the new sea boundaries drawn up in 1999.
And while we may agree that Scotland should take a per capita share of the debt and a per capita share of the Kingdom’s assets what form those assets are would differ, the convention may argue that as RBS & HBOS were unerringly decried as “Scottish banks” during the crunch that we should take control of the UK Government’s share and use it to set up our own Scots Central Bank, rUK will almost certainly have other plans. I’d certainly expect the settled will of the Scottish people to be that we develop a Scottish military capable of defending our own territorial waters, but what if rUK gives us Tristan de Cahuna or the Pitcairn islands as part of our assets?
I think if we are going to hold a Convention, that things like that would need to be part of what is discussed, and rUK would need to have some form of representation.
#233 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 9:44 am
Gentlemen,
We will have a single referendum. It will ask whether we want to be independent or not. If we say yes, then we will be. If we say no then your grandchildren might get another shot at it.
James has put up the best case for obscuring that issue that I have ever seen. It is, according to him, about the detail, when it is clearly nothing of the sort.
If we make this decision then it will be until the sun melts the rocks or summat. It is a serious decision to be made and James has provided us with a run through of the more ludicrous arguments that Unionists might make. For that we should be grateful. It is as well we rehearse our lines in a friendly forum such as this whilst still brushing up on the detail.
It is a shame that James has required to make an utter fool of himself merely to challenge us. But, that is for the best. James is my new hero!
#234 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 9:54 am
This is the most bizarre comment we’ve had, not just of the 229 on this piece, but of the 6,000 plus since we started this venture.
If anyone had bothered to read James’ original piece, you’d see he was making a case FOR a referendum and FOR independence. Its just the timing and the manner of the referendum he had an issue with. The obscurity has come in the debate afterwards, with focus on a minor issue.
Sometimes, I really don’t know why we bother.
#235 by Tony on May 26, 2011 - 10:03 am
Actually Malc Douglas hits several nails on the heid.
Myself and several others have posited the suggestion that whilst James has several worthy concerns these concerns would be much easier to address in an independent Scotland. Instead illogically James’s position is that he may not vote aye if some of these concerns are not addressed now or before a referendum.
Why should the wean get thrown out wi the bathwater when the whole show is a process rather than an end game? Are people who are really that much for independence going to forgo this excellent opportunity because certain details aren’t quite as we would like?
#236 by James on May 26, 2011 - 10:07 am
That’s not even vaguely my argument.
#237 by Gryff on May 26, 2011 - 10:47 am
Isn’t James arguing not so much that he would vote against the ‘wrong referendum’, but that the wrong referendum would be lost, whatever he did?
People on both sides of the debate need to accept that there are lots of people who actually don’t care much either way, they just want Scotland to be stronger, healthier and happier in the future, and those people WILL be sold on the details.
Anyone who wants independence, is going to argue for the best kind of referendum, the best timed, the best discussed, and the one which is clearest for the bulk of non wonks who will be voting in it. That is because they don’t want the only chance for independence in a generation to go by.
#238 by James on May 26, 2011 - 11:07 am
This. This is what I’m arguing. Why in the name of all that’s holy is that not obvious to the die-hard and cloth-eared?
#239 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 10:41 am
No Malc, James was making a case AGAINST the SNP”s referendum policy and AGAINST the SNP’s approach to independence.
He is perfectly entitled to do that of course but SNP supporters are equally entitled to point to the flaws and inconsistencies in his arguments.
#240 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 11:00 am
But that’s where you are conflating 2 things Indy.
James was indeed making a case that the SNP’s referendum policy had flaws, and that the SNP’s approach to independence was flawed. He was still making a case FOR a referendum, and his support FOR independence in that referendum. The piece was making the case that there would be a better chance such a referendum would be won if a) the timing was different and b) there was a wider community involved in discussions regarding independence.
Just because he doesn’t support the way the SNP are doing things doesn’t mean he doesn’t support independence. And if that’s the way the campaign is run, then it will lose.
I swore I wouldn’t get drawn into this debate. *sigh*
#241 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 11:42 am
I think James is completely and utterly wrong and have said so and have said why.
I don’t know a single person with a serious interest in politics who would argue – as James has – that a referendum campaign which took a position on the monarchy would have a better chance of success than a referendum simply on Independence. That’s just not a credible position and you must know that.
In order to win 50% + of the vote the SNP must build the broadest possible tent which means not introducing extraneous and polarising issues like the monarchy but means focussing solely on the issue of Independence. Taking a positon on other matters – such as the monarchy, being in or out of the EU etc – would inevitably whittle down the potential support base for a yes vote and would therefore inevitably reduce the chances of success. That fact is surely so obvious that one must question why anybody would wish to introduce issues such as the monarchy into the debate.
There are also things in the article that are simply not true such as the suggestion that the SNP thinks they can postpone the key decisions (currency, defence, a formal constitution for post-independence Scotland) until after the referendum.
That is just wrong and I am perfectly entitled to point that out.
#242 by James on May 26, 2011 - 11:56 am
It’s not about me introducing the monarchy. It’s about what will come up in the campaign, and how the public can be involved. It’s about what will be used by those who, unlike me, want to preserve the status quo. If you plough on without involving the public and by pretending that the constitution doesn’t cover the head of state, fine, you do that. If you want to keep misrepresenting me, fine, go for it. What I said was..
#243 by Jeff on May 26, 2011 - 11:56 am
When pro-independence activists are out on the streets knocking doors, they will be asked what an independent Scotland will look like and I suspect, without being too harsh on my fellow Scots, those activists will be working with a blank canvas when they paint an independent Scotland.
If there is a distinct lack of detail in the picture that those activists paint, then I think you’ll struggle to get that 50% Indy. People need to know what specifically it is that they’re stepping into.
I strongly disagree when you say that the more detail the SNP (or whoever) paints of what an independent Scotland looks like, the less likely it is a Yes vote can be won. To take an example you mention (and not the blinkin’ monarchy you’ll be pleased to here), I would hesitate to vote Yes if I didn’t know for sure that the SNP wanted us to be a part of the EU for example. Now, the SNP may not be the governing party in the years after independence but that doesn’t matter to me, I’d still want to hear their vision given they’d be frontrunners.
For me this all comes down to many in the SNP wanting to be independent for the sake of it and not independent for x, y and z specific reasons that can be sold to a largely sceptical but open-minded public.
If James and I have these hesitations, surely lots of people out there in Scotland do and surely the SNP would be wise to consider, analyse and placate them?
#244 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 12:21 pm
We wion’t be working with a blank canvass Jeff. We’ll be working with “Talking Independence” originally drafted by Alasdair Allan then updated and reissued by Julie Hepburn.
There is in fact no lack of detail.
I have not at any point said that the more details the SNP paints of an independent Scotland the less likely it is that a Yes vote can be won. That must be a wilful misunderstanding.
What I have said is that the more conditions you place on independence the less likely it is that we will win because the less likely we are to achieve a majority who agree with all the conditions.
That is why we make no proposals to change the status quo in a range of areas such as the monarchy, the currency and the EU. We are in the EU. We will stay in the EU. That is the SNP position.
This has led to media-led accusations of the SNP adopting an “independence lite” approach and to accusations by the likes of James that we are being vague and trying to duck issues. But that’s not what it is, it is rather an approach which we believe will over time allow us to focus the debate on what independence will change rather than what it won’t change.
Because while of course I recognise that the independence debate has to be broad ranging and inclusive there is also a real danger if you adopt a free for all approach that it ends up being a general debate about and referendum on Everything. That would be a disaster.
#245 by Jeff on May 26, 2011 - 12:24 pm
Sorry, when I said “blank canvas” I meant that most Scots probably don’t really have an idea of what specifically independence for Scotland looks like and means. I think that will lead to a big hump of pre-referendum scepticism that the SNP will struggle to get over unless they manage that challenge now.
That’s not as strong as James’ fully public constitution convention but I at least see where he’s coming from.
Also, you said:
“I have not at any point said that the more details the SNP paints of an independent Scotland the less likely it is that a Yes vote can be won. That must be a wilful misunderstanding”
I was referring to this passage. It may be a misunderstanding, but it wasn’t “wilful”.
“In order to win 50% + of the vote the SNP must build the broadest possible tent which means not introducing extraneous and polarising issues like the monarchy but means focussing solely on the issue of Independence. Taking a positon on other matters – such as the monarchy, being in or out of the EU etc – would inevitably whittle down the potential support base for a yes vote and would therefore inevitably reduce the chances of success.”
#246 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 10:47 am
Are you suggesting that unionists would be willing to participate in a constitutional convention to outline how an independent Scotland would be constituted and governed? Or are you saying that Labour et al now accept that independence is going to happen? That is surprising because I was under the impression they would be campaigning for a no vote! or perhaps you are suggesting that unionist politicians should be involved in helping to draw up a constitution for an independent Scotland even though they are going to campaign against independence? Do you think that is a credible position?
John Ruddy:
Why should a process designed to draw up the future of Scotland have to exclude people who dont want indepenedance? Wont they be living in this new Scotland? Wont they have a right to put forward proposals?
#247 by Aidan Skinner on May 26, 2011 - 11:03 am
surely people who don’t support independence have a right to determine what sort of independence that would be? Or would our suffrage in an independent future scotland be dependent on having voted yes in the referendum?
#248 by James on May 26, 2011 - 11:05 am
Yes, in the same way that Greens, despite favouring independence, took part in the devolution convention.
#249 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 11:25 am
Oh get a grip. Suggesting that the SNP will restrict the right to vote in future elections to people who voted yes to independence is just ridiculous. You degrade yourself with such remarks.
If you are saying that you would support the Labour Party getting involved in drawing up proposals for an independent Scotland then fantastic.
But if you are also suggesting that it would be credible for the same Labour Party to then go out and campaign against the proposals they had helped to draw up I think you are just taking the p@@s.
#250 by Aidan Skinner on May 26, 2011 - 4:19 pm
So participation in a process is dependent on supporting the unknown outcome of that process? Don’t think so.
I also think that “I don’t support independence, but if we are to be independent then I think it should like ” is a perfectly consistent and legitimate position to take and excluding people from that process on that basis would be undemocratic.
#251 by John Ruddy on May 26, 2011 - 6:23 pm
But thats exactly what the SNP want. Often they’ll talk about an indpendent Scotland not having a Labour party, or a Liberal democrat Party or even a Conservative party. Now I dislike/hate the tories as much as the next man, but theres no way I would ever wish them off the face of the earth, or wish to make Scotland independant just to be rid of them.
I suppose this is what comes of being part of the “unionist conspiracy”.
#252 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 11:08 am
Malc @ 228,
Have you read anything else that James has said here, apart from his original post?
I have. And I have become increasingly frustrated by the terms and conditions he, and he alone, wants to place on an independence referendum.
He wants the SNP, or you or anyone else, to write a statement of what the future will bring. It is arrant nonsense. No-one, not even a unionist can do that. No-one can guarantee the future. It is a question of trust. Do you think the people you associate with on a daily basis will do a better job of governing you, or do you prefer to have your best (hah!) hived off to Westminster?
He wants us to do that so’s he can pick holes in it. Me? I don’t care about the monarchy. You vote on it and I’ll live with it. It has zero, zilch, to do with independence, yet some folk see it as a veto on independence. They are utterly stupid. If they want to get rid of the monarchy then their chances are vastly increased in a post independence Scotland. It is up to us to decide on our future. That is the point about being asked whether you want to take control of your life or not. Not all this Jamesian flim flam.
It is up to you. And you will be asked the question.
#253 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 11:13 am
No he doesn’t. And he isn’t. Read Gryff’s most recent comment. All James is saying is that the wrong referendum will be lost. He was giving advice – that if the SNP want this to be a success, they may want to consider a couple of things. SNP folk would actually be wise to listen. Didn’t Salmond say “we don’t have a monopoly on wisdom”? Or was that just post-election consensus bull?
Details help win things. So does timing. THAT’S what this was about.
#254 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 11:20 am
malc @ 236,
You say:
No he wasn’t.
James @ 17:
Laying down a marker. It matters to James who the ‘Head of State is. It matters to James more than independence itself.
#255 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 11:27 am
I don’t deny that. James has priorities – he sees constitutional monarchy as less democratic. Disagree with him if you like – I kind of do, but it doesn’t bother me that much. But read that quote again:
“Locking us into a photocopy of Westminster isn’t something I’d vote for.”
What that means is that, IF the referendum means maintaining the monarchy and a Westminster system he – and perhaps many others wouldn’t be in support. Meaning if independence carried with it certain baggage. And its hasn’t been clear that it wouldn’t. The subsequent discussion focused on that particular element. Which, as he says, made his point for him.
Independence isn’t the be all and end all. It matters what’s on offer – that was his point. And there’s more chance of people voting for something when they know what it will be, rather than when they don’t. Constructive criticism.
#256 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 1:48 pm
Sorry to disappoint you Malc but independence is not going to change everything overnight.
If you imagine waking up on the first morning in an independent Scotland things will be pretty much the same as they were the day before.
We will listen to the same radio stations. We will buy the same newspapers written by the same journalists. We will go to the same workplace travelling on the same bus or train or driving along the same roads.
We will buy the same sandwich from the same shop using the same currency. We will send our children to the same schools and nurseries. We will get paid the same salary and will pay the same amount in tax and national insurance.
We will have the same councils run by the same councillors delivering the same services. We will still have to pay our council tax.
The NHS will still be the NHS with the same staff doing the same things.
The Queen will still be the Queen.
We will still be able to watch Eastendeers or QI. The Go Compare guy will still be annoying us.
In other words very little will change, including the position of the sky.
People may not even notice at first that we are a different country. That’s because in most ways we won’t be.
We will be exactly the same country but with more powers.
There is nobody inside or outside of the SNP who can spell out exactly what the Scottish Parliament or Government will do with those powers. The possibilities are endless.
The question you will be asked to answer is whether you want those powers – and the possibilities that go with them – to be avauilable to the Scottish Parliament or whether you don’t.
#257 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 2:09 pm
When or where did I say I thought things would change overnight?! For the record (and to avoid further misunderstanding): I agree entirely that the country will be the same and decisions on everything will rest with Holyrood and not Westminster – that’ll be the only difference on day 1. Clear enough?
I think this debate has gotten to a point where no one will get anything useful out of it now, and everything is subject to misrepresentation and misunderstanding. I suggest agreeing to disagree and moving on.
#258 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 2:57 pm
Look it is pretty simple.
You said “IF the referendum means maintaining the monarchy and a Westminster system he – and perhaps many others wouldn’t be in support..”
The point – and it is a very straightforward one – is that the referendum is simply about the Scottish Parliament having the powers to make decisions about the future of institutions such as the monarchy.
If you agree with that maybe you could explain it to James.
#259 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 3:06 pm
You guys are arguing at cross purposes though. James was stating that IF an independent Scotland was tied to retaining the monarchy, then he wouldn’t be happy, and would consider voting no. You’ve been at pains to point out that an independent Scotland could decide to retain or abandon the monarchy post-independence, in a further referendum, that it would be a decision for an independent Scotland to make.
That’s fine – if it happens. All James was saying was that it if it wasn’t that clear from the start that independence would be better in this regard (ie – that we were not forced into maintaining the monarchy) then that might be an issue in any referendum campaign. And that it would be an issue for both republicans (who are worried we’ll have to keep them) and monarchists (who are worried we’ll be ditching them) in voting for independence.
#260 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 3:39 pm
We are going round in circles because of course an independent Scotland could not possibly be tied to either retaining the monarchy or abolishing it.
Maybe rather than continuing to go round in circles you should let one of us SNP people have a chance to set out how we think the referendum campaign should be approached and then those who disagree can critique that.
#261 by Malc on May 26, 2011 - 3:42 pm
Indy – I’ve said to you before, we’d be delighted to host that discussion. By all means, if you write that – we’d publish it.
EDIT – Of course, I mean I’ve said to you before we’d be delighted for you to guest. I’ve never mentioned this issue before, since it has really just arisen. But it’d be a great subject for a guest post.
#262 by John Ruddy on May 26, 2011 - 6:30 pm
“independence is not going to change everything overnight.”
And that is probably as good a reason as any to vote no. If its not going to change anything, why bother?
I mean, under what we’ve heard so far from the SNP, we’re going to keep the Monarchy, keep the pound stirling (and hence still not have control over half our economic policy) stay in the EU, so have no control over Fisheries, Agriculture, Trade, sales tax etc. All the complaints over Scots Law being decided in the Supreme Court in London will be replaced by complaints over cases being decided in the European Court.
So what will change?
#263 by James on May 26, 2011 - 11:28 am
There’s no inconsistency between Malc’s sound paraphrase of my view set out in this post and my view that inherited power is a philosophically deeper wrong than the union.
I am pragmatically in favour of Scottish independence but I am not any form of nationalist. But I am ideologically and absolutely in favour of democracy.
Maybe one day we’ll get both, as I’d like. But the current SNP tactics risk leaving us with neither.
#264 by Tony on May 26, 2011 - 1:03 pm
I know you think I have cloth ears and am not getting your argument………………….i’d dispute that, in that I reckon I have got it and have moved on to consider that it is better to fight for the things that matter in an independent Scotland where it might actually be possible to achieve.
Thus it would be much easier, indeed a racing certainty that the “philosophically deeper wrong” that you speak of would be put right in an independent Scotland. I don’t reckon that you have addressed this point really. Considering that there is next to no chance of achieving the goal of dissolution of the monarchy in the status quo James, certainly not in our lifetimes.
#265 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 12:14 pm
James,
Your point of view is entirely irrational, but it is yours. The SNP strategy may, within a democracy, get you what you want.
You are also inconsistent James. You really cannot say, as you did @ 248
Eh!
Have you any idea what a Scottish Nationalist – me for instance – is ?
If you are absolutely in favour of democracy then you’d be as well to trod down the nationalists path, for that is most likely to get you your dream. I cannot see the UK giving up on it’s joyous ceremony of Royal spectacle.
It is what they do. It is what they are.
Your last paragraph is in the “too stupid” camp. The current SNP tactics leave us with a choice. Not neither. You on the other hand would deny us that choice. And we are supposed to think you have presented a sensible argument?
Just saying James.
#266 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 12:55 pm
yes that’s exactly what I meant to say. We all know people can have very strong opinions about whether the UK or Scotland should be in or out of the EU just as they can have very strong opinions about the monarchy or about a whole host of other issues. Those are not matters which will be decided by an independence referendum however and it would be a colossal mistake to allow the debate around independence to be hijacked by these other issues.
I have spoken to a lot of voters for example who will say things like how can we really be independent if we are in the EU. But you just say if there is a majority in favour of leaving the EU then an independent Scotland could do that. At present Scotland does not have the power to take any decisions on our membership of the EU or the terms of that membership.
In the same way if I came across a voter who was very strongly against the monarchy I would say in an independent Scotland if there was a majority in favour of a republic then that could happen but at present these kinds of decisions can only be taken by Westminster.
So you are focussing on the essential change that independence would bring – the decision-making powers that would enable the Scottish people to determine these matters for themselves.
However I would never say to someone that an independent Scotland would become a republic or that an independent Scotland would leave the EU. Firstly because that would be dishonest. And secondly because it would be stupid.
For every republican there is a monarchist and for everyone who is against the EU there is someone who is in favour. There is therefore no political sense in trying to attract one set of people if it means alienating another.
I can;t understand why you do not see that.
Jeff:
Sorry, when I said “blank canvas†I meant that most Scots probably don’t really have an idea of what specifically independence for Scotland looks like and means. I think that will lead to a big hump of pre-referendum scepticism that the SNP will struggle to get over unless they manage that challenge now.
That’s not as strong as James’ fully public constitution convention but I at least see where he’s coming from.
Also, you said:
“I have not at any point said that the more details the SNP paints of an independent Scotland the less likely it is that a Yes vote can be won. That must be a wilful misunderstandingâ€
I was referring to this passage. It may be a misunderstanding, but it wasn’t “wilfulâ€.
“In order to win 50% + of the vote the SNP must build the broadest possible tent which means not introducing extraneous and polarising issues like the monarchy but means focussing solely on the issue of Independence. Taking a positon on other matters – such as the monarchy, being in or out of the EU etc – would inevitably whittle down the potential support base for a yes vote and would therefore inevitably reduce the chances of success.â€
#267 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 1:02 pm
I can understand the SNP bolshiness on evidence in this thread. They are been subject, over many years and through many set-backs, to a pretty relentless campaign of condescension and vilification by the unionist establishment in England, as well as Scotland, including in the press and the BBC. Now that they have emerged as the main force in Scottish politics there is an understandable hangover in the form of prickliness to any perceived criticism and a desire press home their advantage and not to trust any other party. I think this is justified, to be honest, but I think it is part of why they can’t win the referendum on their present course.
To win a referendum on something like independence the yes campaign would have to carry an even greater degree of moral authority and national consensus than the yes campaign managed in 1997. That means being seen to be open to building a broad consensus with all those in Scotland who are interested in discussing Scotland’s future, even those not sure of independence but wanting more that want whether devo-max, or federalism. Peoples positions would be clear from the start but there would need to be a genuine openness on the part of everyone including the SNP to be open to what possibilities came out of the process.
Of course, in being open they could get rebuffed, but the public would see that the SNP had shed its paranoia and was mature enough to engage from a position of strength. I feel the public at large want politicians and others in the public domain to work constructively together. There could be an understanding that the fruits of that engagement could be reflected in a multi-option format for the referendum depending on the strength of the argument, but in the process agreement could be hammered out on what direction Scotland should be heading and what the guiding principles of that process should be such as a commitment to defending the Scottish people’s right to choose the direction and speed of change.
The benefit would not only be the specific outcome of such a process but the confidence-building experience for Scottish society. Scottish society would be able to engage in a process where our future could be considered free of Westminster’s ulterior motives, and in an open, inclusive and mature manner. This is the kind of confidence-building that would be needed to build the kind of national self-belief necessary for a positive result in the referendum.
#268 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 2:39 pm
The thing is Alex that “Devo Max” as agreed by Labour, Lib Dems and Tories is being legislated on as we speak. The Scotland Bill has already started its passage through Westminster. The priority now is to strengthen it and that’s what people are focussing on by pushing for control of the Crown Estate, stronger financial powers, power over broadcasting etc. I don’t see how you could feasibly have a parallell process looking at the same matters.
#269 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 3:38 pm
OK. But do you really think that the outcome of the present process will be a substantially beefed up Scotland Bill?
Personally I doubt it for various reasons.
We might have to differ on our assessment, but my view is that the analysis in London is to deflate Alex Salmond’s image of invincibility by only giving those things that don’t cede much more control. So; yes to greater borrowing powers but; no to most of the rest. It would play into Westminster’s hands if the SNP voted down the Scotland Bill because it would then fall and it would have been the SNP which voted it down.
Westminster has already planned what it would do, which is to let it fail and blame SNP intransigence. Then, later, in any independence referendum offer it again with beefed up powers, saying that the UK will not be blackmailed into handing over powers but if Scots voted to stay in the union these would be possible. Of course, they then probably wouldn’t amount to much because after a failed referendum the pressure would be off.
There may well be problems with what I suggested but, regardless of the difficulties, some form of building a wide consensus outside SNP circles amongst academics and journalists, not so much at this stage for independence but for the general direction of travel and why they are right about the extra powers would be a necessary bulwark against Westminster intransigence. The reason I say not for independence at this stage is because it needs to be seen as not just fellow travellers but a genuine cross-section majority for more powers.
I still think a multi-option referendum should not be ruled out because, for one thing it would pre-empt the Westminster’s plans for fighting the referendum, and would secure fiscal autonomy while maintaining a process which is likely to put further strains on the cohesion of the UK state, while leaving open the option of moving on to independence. A failed referendum would stop momentum and give the initiative to Westminster. So yes to a yes/no referendum if it looks likely to win, but no to closing off the option of a multi-option referendum if necessary.
#270 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 2:24 pm
Alex Buchan @ 255,
I was nodding along to your post. I believe that independence is somewhat larger than the SNP. It cuts across political party loyalty. If we are to win that vote, then we must appeal to the wider electorate.
I do not, however, believe in a multi question referendum. It is absolutely essential that the question that is put is a simple yes / no.
Why? Because the decision will be irreversible. Once made there will be no going back.
How many countries that have gained their independence from Westminster have asked, pleaded even, to go back? The answer is none or next to none.
Scotland is becoming increasingly confident in it’s own society.
#271 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 2:57 pm
Would a NO vote be irreversible. Be careful what you wish for!
#272 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 3:28 pm
Alex Buchan,
I certainly hope so! And I can assure you, I am very careful what I wish for.
#273 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 3:30 pm
Oops, you said a NO vote. Well that would be reversible, but not sadly in my lifetime.
#274 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 3:54 pm
Exactly! This is the nation’s future we are talking about not some contest between the SNPs fabled electoral machine and the British establishment. If the SNP could not make the breakthrough they claimed they were going to make in 2010, against a discredited Labour party and a despised Tory party, you will understand why I am not prepared to meekly put my future and the future of my loved ones at risk just in order to prove the point. In twenty years time North Sea oil will no longer be an asset and the British government will have moved to ensure that Scotland’s renewable sector is modest. A case of once bitten twice shy. They will have plenty of time to learn the lessons from the referendum campaign.
#275 by Indy on May 26, 2011 - 3:49 pm
Ok I will email something then
cheers
Type your comment here
#276 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 4:23 pm
Alex Buchan @ 268,
I am not asking you to ‘meekly’ follow the SNP. I am asking you to be somewhat better than this mild foolishness:
It seems to me that you love the warm wrap of unionism. Well, you are entitled to that, desperate as it might be. Did Australia care, or Canada?
You, sir, are a colonialst of our mind space. It is folk such as you that would have us touching out forelock and being exported to pairts unknown.
Frankly I couldn’t give a damn about you nor your attitudes.
But, thanks for sharing. Have a nice day.
#277 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 4:40 pm
Others reading this thread will draw their own conclusions.
#278 by James on May 26, 2011 - 5:50 pm
Like.
#279 by John Ruddy on May 26, 2011 - 6:35 pm
Probably like someone who doesnt agree with the SNP orthodoxy is someone “that would have us touching out forelock and being exported to pairts unknown”.
This is the attitude that is prevalent amongst many SNP activists, and is what will lose them the referendum.
#280 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 9:15 pm
You can only take a horse to water, you can’t make it drink. I am, reasonably, grateful to this thread for clarifying just what we are up against. The essence of which is a complete misunderstanding of what independence ought to be about.
No doubt that can be worked upon. James and certain others really do want the promise of heaven on earth at day one. It is frankly not going to happen. It will take some time for us to work ourselves out. That, obviously, starts to happen immediately after we declare independence.
We will win the referendum with or without you. And, frankly, without fair weather friends like James. Scotland does not need difficulty staters at it’s political throat. It needs people of vision. Not folk that are feart of their next door neighbour. We can do this if we want to. We are a damn site better than you naysayers are letting on. Vote for a continued union with an increasingly militaristic and subservient rUK if you so wish. Or not.
It is your choice and you are all being thrawn about it.
#281 by Angus McLellan on May 26, 2011 - 7:07 pm
I’m sorry, but that “m3 t00”, your second IIRC, was really all that this thread from hell required to be perfect. Any further comment, including this, is superfluous.
But if I must – and it would be much better if this post were not approved and the thread taken out and shot to put it out of its misery – let me say that I disagree with Alex Buchan’s comment, unless it is to be heavily qualified. Only a hard-core political anorak could stomach enough of this thread to reach any conclusion. Mere mortals will be bored senseless trying to decode the original post.
I’ve crunched the data in Excel and estimate the number of voters likely to be convinced one way or another by this monstrous waste of energy to be less than zero. I think that means we are so far removed from our normal frame of reference that the laws of mathematics no longer apply. I’m inclined to blame that comparison between an independent Scotland and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Isn’t it better to stop now, before even stranger things happen? We’ve all seen Dr Who or Torchwood: nothing good ever comes of knocking holes in the space-time continuum.
#282 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 7:23 pm
Like, my concern throughout this thread has been to highlight potential pitfalls. Maybe I have been around too long, having been active in the SNP in 1974 and at various times since then. The experience of dejection after 1979, with the decline of the SNP and the effects of the Thatcher and Major governments, has definitely left psychological scars and might mean that I am over cautious, but there seems to be a underlying assumption common to quite a few contributions on this thread that if you don’t agree wholeheartedly with the understanding of things according to the current SNPs position you are somehow a traitor, as the last comment by Douglas more or less said.
I do think that it is naïve to think of Westminster as in a weak position and easily pressured into giving us what we want. The coalition government will not roll over, as I said in the comment above, I think they will only give way on the Scotland Bill a little, while still trying to project a respect agenda in what will become a subtle propaganda war. It will be in their interests if the SNP majority in the Scots’ parliament vote the Scotland Bill down as they can blame SNP intransigence, and this helps to muddy the waters before the referendum and will give them something positive to offer in the referendum.
Of course things could turn out differently and it may seem strange for me to say this, but I have been physically close enough to Alex Salmond in the past to have a good basis for rating him highly, but I find attempts to slam divergent voices in this debate depressing.
#283 by Tony on May 26, 2011 - 9:18 pm
The whole no-can-do let’s settle for as little as possible attitude………..can we not have multiple options? red herring etc. that permeates your comments has had my alarm bells ringing (and obviously others too) for as long Alex. You seem to be pushing an agenda that just feels out of place. The repeated suggestion, indeed accusation that the SNP would not try to engage with people is wierd also.
Some of what you say resonates in that one of the more senior members of our branch just can’t get it through her head that the present state of affairs is real. She see’s treachery and McCrone type foul play at every turn. Jumps on the merest suggestion that the British government could wriggle out of their obligations and spoken commitments. Ach perhaps it is yir mental battle scars and distance from the reality of what is a real groundswell of support and goodwill from the ordinary people.
#284 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 9:28 pm
Alex Buchan,
If that is the impression I have left you with then I have failed to communicate properly. As far as I am concerned there are legitimate points to be made about independence. The pros and the cons if you like. I am well along the spectrum of being pro independence, largely because I trust you and even James not to make a complete mess of it. What I am unhappy about is the assumption that this is a SNP initiative. It is not. It is what the Scottish voter asked for on May 5th. It is an ‘us’ moment.
We, individual Scots, have to drive this to a conclusion. Quite frankly we will get our way. And you know something? The sky will not fall down. We will simply be responsible for ourselves, for the first time in 300 years. What a scary thought that is for some of you.
#285 by Alex Buchan on May 26, 2011 - 10:07 pm
Misrepresenting your opponents doesn’t get you very far and looks bad. Everything you say about independence is correct from where I stand. As the yes campaign is not a party political campaign it will be as much my responsibility to ensure I do everything to make it succeed as it will be yours.
#286 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 10:53 pm
Alex Buchan,
What opponents? As far as I am concerned we are all friends here. We may disagree about tactics, hell we certainly do, but the aim is the same.
Thanks for the rest of your post. You are absolutely right, it is up to us, not politicians…. We decide.
#287 by setindarkness on May 26, 2011 - 5:54 pm
Joy of joy, I found the manage subscriptions option and no longer have to get comment updates on this thread. I feel sorry for the moderators.
#288 by Graham on May 26, 2011 - 9:29 pm
I would like to see a fully independent and democratic (which precludes monarchy for me) Scotland. If what’s on offer is independence coupled with a guarantee that a referendum on the monarchy will be held within an agreed timescale then I could support that, although a clearer indication that an independent government would positively advance the democratic (non-monarchical) case when the referendum is eventually held would be more reassuring than bending the knee.
If what was being offered was independence tied to support for monarchy (therefore no referendum on it) would I vote against? No I would not. But I’d really struggle to bring myself to vote for it and I’ve been an independence supporter since I became politically aware.
What should you do if you suspect that the promised referendum on monarchy will not materialise, a suspicion reinforced by obvious attempts to demonstrate that monarchy is a non-issue or even desirable?
#289 by Doug Daniel on May 27, 2011 - 8:58 am
I don’t think there is a single person on this thread that has said the monarchy is desirable. It’s not a non-issue either, but it is a different issue. Again, the point is that independence will give us the tools to allow us to have that referendum on the monarchy, a referendum which Westminster will never grant. But it’s important to note that the current plan isn’t “let’s become an independent country under the Queen, because she’s great”; it’s “let’s become independent first and then we can work on the things that we are currently prevented from doing”. One of those things is a referendum on the monarchy.
What should you do if that referendum doesn’t materialise? Simple – campaign for it!
#290 by Indy on May 27, 2011 - 11:48 am
Graham the SNP wasn’t elected to deliver a referendum on the monarchy but was elected to deliver a referendum on independence.
Do you think Scotland should become independent i.e that the Scottish Parliament should take on all the powers that are currently exercised by Westninster -such as foreign policy, defence, broadcasting, economic powers, tax, benefits, pensions etc- and so that Scotland become a member in her own right of the world community, or do you think that Westminster should continue to be sovereign?
That’s the question you will be asked. So, just as a matter of interest how do you think you will vote?
#291 by Graham on May 28, 2011 - 11:38 pm
Indy, to answer your question, I will vote in favour of independence because it is of the greatest importance in my opinion. However, for those who think the issue of monarchy is minor, unimportant or benign, below is an inexhaustive list of of roles and authorities of the UK monarch. This is about democracy, accountability, how Scotland sees itself and how we want the rest of the world to see us.
* Head of State and nation.
* Permits the opening and dissolution of Parliament.
* Appoints the Prime Minister (PM) and First Minister (FM).
* Has legal authority to dismiss the Government for any reason or none. Last exercised in the UK in 1834 and in Australia in 1975.
* Has the right to weekly audiences with PM, during which she has a right and a duty to express her views on Government matters. Has a right to regular audiences with the (FM) and receives weekly reports from the Scottish Parliament on its business.
* Has the right to be consulted, to encourage and to warn through regular audiences with her Ministers.
* All Acts of Parliament must receive Royal Assent before they can become law (not refused since 1707).
* Head of the Privy Council, a body of her advisers that can enact legislation without parliamentary approval.
* The Royal Prerogative allows the PM make the decision to go to war, sign treaties without parliamentary approval and claim public interest immunity (PII) in a variety of areas.
* The Crown Office, courts, judges, sheriffs and prisons are Her Majesty’s. Criminal prosecutions are brought on behalf of the Crown.
* Head of the Armed Forces. The monarch is the only person who has the authority to declare war and peace (on the advice of her ministers).
* Represents the State to the rest of the world, including diplomatic relations.
* Distributes honours, awards, patronages and sponsorships.
* Provides a focus for national unity and identity.
#292 by douglas clark on May 26, 2011 - 11:02 pm
Graham @ 286,
I agree. But we have to get independence first in order to have the referendum you, and I, seek. If we are being sold a pup, in the sense that constitutional issues will not be decided by referendums, then you have cause for concern. I do not believe that that is the case. It is an interesting point that we doubt ourselves to the extent that ‘whether a referendum?’ becomes a subject of debate. I have more faith in you than that. I have more faith in the lot of you than that.
One thing I am fairly sure of. If we stay a part of the UK then there is zero chance of that referendum being put to the people.
#293 by John Ruddy on May 26, 2011 - 11:36 pm
“If we stay a part of the UK then there is zero chance of that referendum being put to the people.”
And what guarantees are there that the new independent Scotland will be any different? So far none, because we arnt going to get to decide on what sort of Scotland we get until after we’ve voted yes.
#294 by douglas clark on May 27, 2011 - 10:21 am
John,
Well, perhaps that ought to be a part of the devolution promise? I’d have thought that referendums should be about constitutional issues and this is certainly one of them.
#295 by James on May 29, 2011 - 10:31 am
Perhaps? Who knows? Maybe we’ll get offered it? That’s exactly the sort of uncertainty that inspired the original piece. Perhaps we could involve the people in the process that determines it?
(btw if a Constitutional Convention proposal included a cast-iron guarantee of a referendum on the monarchy within the first two years of independence, or similar, that would resolve the issue for me).
#296 by Graham on May 27, 2011 - 7:33 am
“For every republican there is a monarchist…â€
Certainly there are monarchists and there are republicans (if we want to use those terms) but I’m not sure that the ratio is 1:1. I offered the 1997 televised poll as evidence of majority support in favour of abolition. I have seen no evidence offered attempting to quantify those in favour of retention. I think very few people are entrenched absolutists on the matter either way; they are open to persuasion and it is not a difficult argument to win (winning the argument for indepedence will be much more difficult). Anyway, we shouldn’t run from an argument simply because we fear disagreement. Neither is it argument for argument’s sake. Some things are worth arguing for and this is one of them because state-sponsored hereditary privilege fundamentally undermines democracy and has no place in a democratic 21st century independent Scotland.
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#297 by Independent on May 29, 2011 - 12:29 am
James, you got yourself into a hole, and then kept digging deeper.
Before Election, all the unionist parties were dead against a referendum. After Election, they are dying for a referendum immediately. Hypocrites, don’t you agree?
Before Election, the Greens were expecting to win 7-8 seats and to complement the SNP for a majority in favour of a referendum. After Election, the Greens are not in a position to make any demands as to the timing or wording of the referendum.
So as a Green, even if you might be in favour of independence, you are obviously very disappointed that the Greens will not be able to make any demands, and that is the tone of your article. And it gives the impression that you are using similar dividing tactics as the unionists.
Before Election, the SNP promised a referendum in the second half of the parliament. After election, the SNP are holding firm with their manifesto commitment.
The SNP have worked very, very hard to reach this unprecedented and almost impossible position. The voters have given their approval for the SNP’s policy of holding a referendum in the second half of the parliament.
Normally, political parties are accussed of breaking their manifesto promises. But in the case of the SNP, all the opposition parties, the media and the BBC are demanding that the SNP break their manifesto promise. Is that the sort of democracy you are looking for in an independent Scotland?
Your argument about the monarchy and democracy is just plain ridiculous. ANYTHING would be more democratic than Westminster. You have ignored the many comments pointing out that the Scandinavian countries with monarchies come top in terms of democracy and fair societies, and that once independent, Scotland would decide on the monarchy and other issues as it goes along. You need to give up your illogical stand.
After more than 300 years, there is now a real opportunity for Independence. Independence meaning Scotland making its own decisions like Ireland does. So now is the time for all those in favour of independence to leave aside their petty party political differences and work together for the main, common goal. There will be an election immediately after Independence. That will be the time for each party to present their manifestos to the Scottish people, including policies on the monarchy, EU membership, currency etc, as is normal in any democracy.
Alex Salmond has been very generous in saying that even with a majority, the SNP does not have a monopoly on wisdom. The SNP has a draft constitution for an independent Scotland which will need to be revised and updated before the referendum. I am sure that the SNP will be more then happy to accept any wise and constructive input from the 3 pro-Independence MSPs (2 Green and 1 Independent).
(On the monarchy, my personal view is to hold a referendum in the event of the Queen’s abdication or death.)
#298 by James on May 29, 2011 - 10:45 am
A masterclass in weak reasoning. This one deserves a line-by-line.
It’s at this point I realise you haven’t read the post at all. That’s what I set out in my seventh paragraph.
No, not expecting that. I’d hoped for more. But you should have noticed that this piece is not a “demand” about timing. It’s friendly advice on how to pass a referendum.
Actually, this isn’t anything to do with being a Green or not, any more than it’s about making demands. See the last comment. Also, there’s no sane sense in which giving sincerely-meant advice on winning a referendum counts as “dividing tactics”, let alone a justification for implying that I’m a unionist.
There was no date in the manifesto: that’s simply wrong. You just assumed there was. It was a comment by Salmond in a debate. But I half take your point here. There has been a commitment to keep the referendum to the second half of the term, and it’d be awkward to go back on that. Still, it’s my sincere view that keeping to it will see the referendum go down. Friendly concern, if you like.
Sorry, it’s still not in the manifesto. Also, don’t start on that. Abolition of student debt? Broken. 3% per year climate targets? Broken. Etc.
This might perhaps be my favourite bit. Certainly the most telling. I added the emphasis there to illustrate how bizarrely blinkered this attitude is. North Korea or Saudi Arabia more democratic than Westminster? Please do try to have some point of contact with reality. Also, only SNP activists tell me what to think (see for example Shirley-Anne Somerville’s conference speech which said we shouldn’t even debate the bridge – apologies for bringing up North Korea twice in one comment).
But all normal democracies have a constitution, even if it’s an uncodified one like the current UK. So under what constitution will that first general election be held, and who decides on what the constitution is? A constitution isn’t the same as a manifesto. It’s the set of rules under which government takes place. And I think that’s important enough to involve the people – in advance!
Believe it when I see it.
And under what process will that be decided?
#299 by Graham on May 29, 2011 - 8:05 pm
The Sunday Times reports today that the Queen met with the PM this week to signal her concern about the break-up of the UK. But she has no real power and is great for tourism, apparently. Who leaked it? Anyone read it?
#300 by Steve on May 30, 2011 - 9:11 pm
I’ve not had time to read all the comments yet, but I’d like to say that I agree with a lot of what James says in terms of the substance of his article – that there basically needs to be a participative process that starts now and runs up to the referendum, which itself is somehow based on that wide ranging and inclusive discussion.
But I do think that people see things through the prism of their own political party/beliefs/recent election experience, and I have two comments – one SNP and their supporters deserve to be well chuffed but they need to avoid arrogance and rushing to closing down the terms of the referendum and the whole independence debate. We do need to all spend a bit of time engaging with what a basic independence-day-1 constitution would look like, I think you could leave the monarchy question open, but you’d want to know basic stuff like currency, relationship with EU etc.
I think James’s prejudice against the SNP (that they will choose to implement some pretty harsh cuts over the next few years) is reminiscent of the Greens’ pre election pitch, but I don’t think it’s quite true now. If the SNP get the borrowing powers early as looks likely, they might be able to postpone the cuts for a couple of years and so be well placed politically to win a referendum in four years.
#301 by Independent on May 31, 2011 - 11:56 pm
To quote James: “Democracy is 100% rule by the people. Even constitutional and limited monarchy breaks that. It’s an absolute principle for me. I’d rather live in a democracy – any true democracy – than some undemocratic Scotland.”
By “ANYTHING would be more democratic than Westminster”, I mean ANY political system in an independent SCOTLAND. Do you really believe Scotland would replace Westminster with a North Korean or Saudi Arabian style system, or anything less democratic than Westminster? By the way, Saudi Arabia is one of Westminster’s best friends.
What are the top 5 democracies in the world in your opinion?
Your “absolute principle” of Independence only if without a monarchy is a very good example of the dividing tactics used by the unionists. Don’t you know that the monarchy is as much Scottish as it is English and there seems to be considerable
support for it in Scotland? Combining the 2 issues in an Independence referendum would make it LESS LIKELY to achieve a yes vote for Independence.
It is not an “absolute principle” for me as to under what process a referendum on the monarchy would be decided, so any would do for me.
I don’t see it as “friendly advice” when a Green wants to make the SNP go back on its word to lose credibility and appear opportunist. The SNP has roughly stated a date for the referendum and the Scottish people have accepted that. And does the
issue of Scottish Independence have the same significance to you as student debt and climate targets?
“You need to give up your illogical stand” (regarding your “absolute principle”: Westminster a better democracy than an independent Scotland with a monarchy) was just “friendly advice” to you.
#302 by Aonghas on June 1, 2011 - 6:27 pm
This comment thread is quite baffling. The betternation chaps seem seem to be adopting a wilfully obtuse position. I expect it from james, but malc is surprising me.
#303 by Malc on June 1, 2011 - 10:07 pm
“Wilfully obtuse”. I’ve been called worse.
Sorry to disappoint.
#304 by Lily on June 3, 2011 - 1:19 pm
I read the original post when it went up and have just read the comments.
It has been most enlightening.
James – I thought your post raised some useful questions about process and participation and I agree with you that a more robust approach to raising voter awareness and ensuring the electorate can make an informed choice in the referendum is vital. I would add that getting people motivated to register and use their vote at all might be the bigger challenge for democracy, regardless of the outcome of the referendum.
On the comments, some thoughts:
nose cutting metaphors are over used;
there is a lack of clarity about the distinction between strategy and tactics;
no great surprise that the monarchy became the blue touch paper – there is a world of difference between independence with/without a monarch sitting as unelected head of state and not addressing it makes little sense;
constitutional law is “big law” – designing the framework for constitutional change on this scale is too big for one party, even if that party has carried the vision for that change throughout its existence.
The thread is so long it looped round in circles many times. I could knit a jumper with it but it would be a bit jaggy.
Maybe you should consider a policy on when to draw the line?!
#305 by James on June 3, 2011 - 1:20 pm
And with that, we draw a line!