There is a simple reason why proponents of independence regularly urge the Scottish element of unionist parties to breakaway from their UK domain. It is not necessarily because they believe it will make them stronger but rather because it will make Scotland appear more independent.
A nation that has a separate legal system, a separate education system, separate political parties and a separate Parliament always has a decent chance of being a separate country. This factor may not be at the forefront of unionist parties’ thinking as they sift through the wreckage of their respective 2011 campaigns but to what extent they wish to be seen as ‘Scottish’ political parties will be a top discussion point for each of them.
Labour specifically has always had a difficult time being Scottish within a UK group, swinging between criticising the SNP for trying to ‘own’ the Saltire and waving that same flag as much as it can, on occasion, seemingly trying to ‘win’ it back.
For me, Lord Foulkes has typified the unease and awkward narrative that Labour has plagued itself with. The former Lothians MSP’s complaints that Scotrail trains would have a Saltire livery and his criticism that the SNP were making things better and ‘doing it on purpose’ never really stacked up.
So, should Labour, as many seem to be suggesting, wrap itself in a Saltire at future elections?
A persuasive argument for such a move was the rather bizarre cameo appearances from Balls, Miliband and Izzard during the election campaign. Their contribution was always unclear, trying to enunciate a knife crime policy that they had no link to and then sermonising on UK economics that just felt irrelevant given the context, before hopping on a train in the afternoon and out of the fray. Ed Miliband held Scotland up as a springboard to success at Westminster but then spent May 6th in Kent to celebrate a half-decent performance down there in the garden of England. The Labour leader may have been better served heading North and showing real leadership by commiserating with his colleagues.
For me, Labour’s solution is not to split off its Scottish element away from London HQ, as the Nats would wish it. The solution is simply to improve communication between London and Edinburgh. A party blueprint for policy at Westminster and how a Holyrood agenda can dovetail into that blueprint, or vice versa, should in theory be a powerful campaign weapon, particularly against an SNP that only ever has one side of the cross-border approach to a problem at its disposal.
For renewable power, joined up thinking and cohesive pledges on the Grid (UK policy) and Scotland’s renewable revolution (largely Holyrood’s area) should have been a no-brainer for any of the Westminster-led parties, the Olympics come to the UK next year but no-one sold the Scottish benefits that I could see and even seemingly distinct policy areas such as health and education could have come with the refrain that increased spending in London under Labour means more spending, with shared intellectual economies of scale, under Labour in Edinburgh.
It’s more subtle than ‘now that the Tories are back’ but it is also surely more persuasive and effective. It is basically an explanation of how any union divided can compliment strictly devolved policies but it was curiously absent over the past month or two and it is curiously absent now.
Scotland and Britain used to get its knickers in a twist over Andy Murray and what colours were on his sweatbands and what flag he would hoist if he won a competition. That distraction soon made way for a nationwide acceptance that the guy was an ace tennis player and it really didn’t matter who he belonged to. Labour should learn from that and start realising that it doesn’t matter what colours it is draped in, it is what is under the bonnet that counts.
#1 by Dubbieside on May 16, 2011 - 1:31 pm
Jeff
Your comment “the Olympics come to the UK next year but no-one sold the Scottish benefits that I could see”
Could you please outline the Scottish benefits. As far as I can see there are no benefits, unless you count a minor football match at Hampden that no Scots will be involved in. Will they have to give the tickets away free to fill the ground?
More Scottish lottery money diverted to London, yet another “union benefit”
#2 by Jeff on May 16, 2011 - 2:16 pm
That’s not for me to say Dubbieside, especially as I don’t think there are many significant benefits for Scotland, but we are often told that there are and I suppose a general increase in tourism to the UK will have a positive impact on Scotland but, as I say, it’s for Ed Balls or Ed Miliband to explain that and I do think they missed a trick over the past couple of months.
#3 by Martinb on May 16, 2011 - 1:47 pm
While I think you’re right in that it’s not in Labour’s interest to divorce its London and Edinburgh operations, it *does* need to make its appeal more responsive to Scottish needs, not just bolstering the Westminster fight with the Tories. That’s true for both Holyrood and Westminster elections, where it appears to use its Scottish MPs as simple lobby fodder rather than as lobbying for their own constituencies’ interests.
Salmond’s question to Dewar in the Usher Hall debate all those years ago is still spot on: with 50 MPs and all the voting power that brings, can you name a single Scottish industry you’ve managed to save?
But then, if it came down to real matters of arguing the good of its constituents, Scottish Labour shouldn’t have the ugly visceral hatred of the SNP at all and work together on centre-left policy objectives. Chances of that happening..?
#4 by Jeff on May 16, 2011 - 2:17 pm
We live in hope Martin but I don’t see Labour seeing the light and working constructively with the SNP either, sadly.
#5 by Aidan Skinner on May 17, 2011 - 11:08 am
TBF the visceral hatred goes both ways 😉
#6 by Jeff on May 17, 2011 - 1:10 pm
Maybe I’ve got yellow goggles on but I’ve always thought the visceral hatred was more one way than the other…
#7 by Aidan Skinner on May 17, 2011 - 3:00 pm
I think what I may regard as evidence of SNP visceral hatred for Labour you might regard as robust but fair comment 😉
#8 by Jeff on May 17, 2011 - 4:52 pm
I think, more likely, is that since I’ve only really followed Scottish Politics since the SNP has been in power, there have been few opportunities for the SNP Government and its supporters to betray any ‘visceral hatred’ they may have, whereas Labour have had plenty such opportunities as they are on the outside looking in.
Innocent until proven guilty in my book though and, so, for me, Labour fall more foul than the Nats.
#9 by Aidan Skinner on May 17, 2011 - 5:31 pm
I direct you to http://www.newsnetscotland.com/scottish-politics/928-labour-and-the-smear-gone-wrong-.html which has some particularly choice quotes. 😉
And, of course, there was the whole Universality of Cheese episode…
#10 by Alister on May 16, 2011 - 2:33 pm
I wouldn’t myself use the term wrapping itself in the Saltire, (good title though), but I do think Labour and the other Unionist parties need to become separate parties in Scotland. They need to put Scotland first and only then, somehow, work out how maintaining the UK makes Scotland a better nation. Not sure they can do this though.
#11 by Doug Daniel on May 16, 2011 - 3:01 pm
I don’t agree with your opening gambit, Jeff. As an SNP member, it would be no skin off my nose if the unionist parties stick with their pre-devolution party structures, as they look increasingly out-of-touch with Holyrood reality in comparison to the SNP and Greens. To be honest, I want the Lib Dems, Labour and the Tories to cease to exist as forces in Scottish politics and be replaced with pro-independence alternatives, or at the very worst unionist Scottish parties. As far as I’m concerned, the longer their Scottish elements allow themselves to be controlled by the UK parties, the weaker they get.
The proof is in the pudding. Look at where Labour have gotten after 12 years of pretending Scottish politics is the same as it was before devolution – their front bench last session was an embarrassment, and unless some of their new intake are quick to shine, then it’s hard to see that particular rot stopping. As a result, they’re completely bereft of new ideas. Ed Milliband’s desire to use Holyrood as a stepping stone for his bid for Westminster epitomised how badly Labour takes Holyrood for granted and, even worse, the voters – they need an autonomous Scottish party whose sole focus is Holyrood, rather than leaving it as an afterthought.
The Lib Dems may have a federal Scottish branch, but this is countered by the fact that Scottish MPs – who are meant to take orders from the Scottish leader – are doing the UK party’s bidding, to the detriment of their colleagues in Holyrood. Are Danny Alexander and Michael Moore under the leadership of Tavish Scott’s successor, or Nick Clegg? They need to work this out, because trying to distance themselves from policies being enacted by Scottish MPs has no credibility at all.
The real problem, however, is not that they don’t have specifically Scottish branches; it’s that they don’t have Holyrood-specific branches. The Lib Dem structure doesn’t work because the Scottish leader doesn’t appear to have a veto over what his Scottish MPs do. They need Holyrood-specific branches that are allowed to disagree with what the Westminster party is doing. The leaders of these branches then need to decide if they will take the flak as well as the credit for what their Westminster buddies are doing, or if they will act as an entirely separate entity.
#12 by Jeff on May 16, 2011 - 3:15 pm
“I want the Lib Dems, Labour and the Tories to cease to exist as forces in Scottish politics and be replaced with pro-independence alternatives, or at the very worst unionist Scottish parties. ”
So you do agree with my opening gambit then? 😉
Anyway, that’s by the by, I am intrigued by your idea of Holyrood branches, though that proposal is presumably based on the assumption that Holyrood and Westminster will disagree, even within the same party. I personally do not believe that this should ever happen for a party that is committed to the UK. How can the Lib Dems, Labour or Tories propose something from London that the party is not prepared to defend in Edinburgh? If policy is thought through from start to finish, and created by members, then that should not be allowed to happen.
I think a Holyrood/Westminster branch set-up is ultimately too tricky though – a typical member of a party would have to decide which side of the divide they were on and the party would be diluting their manpower at election time (“I’m not campaigning for MP x, I am a ‘Holyrood’ memberâ€, for example)
I think your point about personalities is key though, and what I was trying to get at with the ‘what’s under the bonnet is what counts’ comment. Labour’s new broom deserves a fair chance but they have a tough job up against the now established and more experienced Sturgeon/MacAskill/Crawford/Swinney/Cunninghame etc, and that’s before even considering who will be facing up to Salmond next.
I still think, if they are going to decide it’s a key factor at all, that LD/Lab/Tories have to show a commitment to the UK in party structure and party policy over the next 6-12 months.
#13 by Doug Daniel on May 16, 2011 - 7:23 pm
Ah, but I don’t agree, although I can see what you’re saying. As I say, I would love to see the back of these parties, and I think the longer they fail to adapt to devolution, the weaker they become. But I think having autonomous Scottish elements would make them stronger, and it’s up to them to make that work with their unionist views. I will continue to offer suggestions for how these parties could improve their standing in Scotland, safe in the knowledge that they’re not listening!
As for Holyrood and Westminster disagreeing, you’re right that it shouldn’t happen, as parties should be able to say “yes, we back this proposal in England, but we back the opposite in Scotland because the circumstances are different”. However, the reality is that this isn’t how it happens.
We’ve seen a few examples over the past four years, particularly tuition fees and minimum alcohol pricing. It’s perfectly legitimate for Labour to have opposing views on minimum alcohol pricing in England and Scotland, but only if they have good reason for doing so. As it stands, they just looked like they were opposing it in Scotland because the SNP proposed it (mainly because, erm, they were). I suspect they would have looked far more credible if they backed it in Scotland but not in England, saying that it was because Scotland has a greater need for it than England. A separate Holyrood Labour party would have at least been able to say “we’re not the same party as the UK Labour party”.
The same with the Lib Dems, although perhaps for slightly different reasons. The Scottish Lib Dems’ position on tuition fees was completely discredited by the fact that Scottish Lib Dem MPs – one in particular – are imposing large tuition fees on England. This added to the fact that the UK party’s pre-election position had been the same as the Scottish Lib Dems, and people were left with no choice but to assume the Scottish Lib Dems would go back on this position as soon as required. Tavish Scott tried to distance himself from the UK Lib Dem actions, but people saw through it quite easily.
Of course, there is another problem in these situations, as with most others you could think of – they are based around ideas of what is the “right thing” to do. In these situations, it’s difficult to argue that there are reasons for a policy being the “right thing” in one part of the UK but not in other parts.
So there are two options: either stick to the script and have a coherent message throughout the whole UK; or have separate entities that can credibly “believe” in something in England but not “believe” in it in Scotland. Until parties choose to do either of these, then they will continue to loom like chancers in comparison to the SNP.
#14 by Dubbieside on May 16, 2011 - 5:09 pm
Jeff
“How can the Lib Dems, Labour or Tories propose something from London that the party is not prepared to defend in Edinburgh?”
I think that you have just got to the heart of the matter. If these are UK wide parties it is up to them to defend UK wide policies. If they are unable to do that then the only course of action left to them would be total separation from London rule and to form truly Scottish only parties.
Anything that all their reviews comes up with that still leaves Cameron, Glegg and Miliband in charge of their respective Scottish branch offices is only tinkering round the margins, and will not make any difference about how they are perceived by the Scottish electorate.
P.S. My reading of your Olympic games comment was that you could see benefits. Obviously like me you cannot see any and are waiting for some to be pointed out.
#15 by Martinb on May 16, 2011 - 5:56 pm
“I am intrigued by your idea of Holyrood branches, though that proposal is presumably based on the assumption that Holyrood and Westminster will disagree, even within the same party.”
I think that while it won’t be constant, it is inevitable, as there always will be matters that impact (and indeed matter to) different areas of the UK differently. Given that politics as the art of the possible is always going to be a negotiation, where you are prepared to concede some of your ideal outcomes, you will always have items that a UK perspective can concede that matter to a Scottish perspective.
Thus a UK Labour party might comfortably concede elements of fishing policy to protect what it sees as a larger prize in protecting pension rights in DWP which has its largest impact in Leeds and Blackpool. A credible Scottish Labour party has to be able to articulate the disproportionate pain in Scotland and openly lobby for that *not* to be conceded.
(Isn’t that a key argument for independence anyway..?)
#16 by Indy on May 16, 2011 - 6:22 pm
The solution would not be to improve communication between London and Edinburgh. It would be to give Edinburgh the authority. At the moment it doesn’t even have parity.
To take just one example of why this is a problem. The SNP is organised on the ground along Scottish Parliament constituency boundaries. Labour is organised on Westminster constituency boundaries. This means that for Westminster elections the SNP has to create liaision cttees to coordinate campaigning across a Westminster constituency while for Labour it is the other way around. They are geared up to see Westminster elections as being the most important thing. But is it? After all they lost the Westminster election at a UK level. But it is the loss of Scottish Parliament seats that really has them in a spin. That in itself surely demonstrates that they have had their priorities wrong.
#17 by Brian Nicholson on May 16, 2011 - 8:00 pm
Wrapping in a Saltire without actually believing in the Saltire would be the worst possible move for any of the unionist parties. To succeed in the new aspirational Scotland, it will require far more than a rebranding exercise.
The unionists need to ask themselves what is their reason for existence. They need to establish their common objectives for the country and articulate how these objectives are better options than those presented by the SNP. In short, it is a battle for the hearts and minds and if all you offer is the same with a new coat of paint, your loss of that battle is inevitable.
#18 by Scottish Politics on May 17, 2011 - 12:05 am
My take on a similar issue from a while back Jeff!
http://scottishpolitics.blogspot.com/2009/09/labour-embrace-saltire-independence-by.html
#19 by Davie Park on May 17, 2011 - 1:53 am
But Jeff, the whole point of devolution was to enable us to pursue distinct policies (in devolved areas) where we felt that was appropriate and beneficial. That was certainly the Labour line at the time.
Uniform application of policy by the unionist parties would debase the whole devolution project and reveal, for any remaining doubters, that political expediency was the main motivating factor behind Labour’s support for a Scottish Parliament.
#20 by Davie Park on May 17, 2011 - 2:07 am
Jeff wrote
That’s not for me to say Dubbieside, especially as I don’t think there are many significant benefits for Scotland, but we are often told that there are and I suppose a general increase in tourism to the UK will have a positive impact on Scotland
The (New Labour) Government commissioned report on the financial benefits of the London Olympics showed a £7billion windfall – for London and the South East.
The rest of the country would, unfortunately, find itself £4billion down on the deal.
‘Dispatches’ revealed all in a programme titled “The Olympic Cash Machine’.
Good to know that the rest of the country is doing its bit to support the wealthiest part of the UK.
Meanwhile, the Glasgow Commonwealth Games get no central Govt funding.
Just another union dividend, I suppose.
#21 by Jeff on May 17, 2011 - 8:56 am
Thanks for that Davie, I didn’t realise it was such a stark divide on that one, though I was vaguely aware of Scotland losing out on Lottery cash.
The economy, Olympics aside, is already operating on a two-tier basis with the South East moving into growth much quicker than the rest of the UK. Corrective action from the Government should really be taken.
Olympics in Ardnamurchan anyone?
#22 by Davie Park on May 17, 2011 - 11:10 am
With so much of the apparatus of government in London and the south east, and with both Labour and Tory governments obsessed with the primacy of London and designing much of their economic policy around that, it’s inevitable that business there will thrive while the rest of the country is struggling.
The UK is one of the most economically, governmentally and culturally centralised democracies in the western world and vested interests mean that is not going to change anytime soon.
#23 by Martinb on May 17, 2011 - 9:11 pm
Perhaps any visceral feelings towards Labour are more on view amongst friends than in public.
The night that forever made me sceptical of Labour Doing The Right Thing was the night of the devolution referendum count.
I was at the theoretically non-partisan party for non-high-heidyins at Edinburgh’s St Bride’s Centre. It was everyone in it together, all pro-devolutionary campaigners united… until the moment before the result came in. At that point, a large group of Labour supporters stripped off the jumpers to reveal party tshirts and plonked themselves in front of the press, to make sure that all the photos the next morning were of “Labour Supporters who won the referendum” (there’s an iconic photo that Google isn’t helping me with right now).
Similarly, as the dawn broke, before the champagne went flat, Brian Wilson was on the Referendum Result programme putting the boot into the SNP without allowing even the briefest pause to mutually congratulate each other on what had been achieved together before starting the campaigns for the parliament.
That partisan, party machine attitude, based on being mostly for winning, and mostly against anyone else winning (rather than improving the nation, in particular what Labour’s heritage of the weakest in society) sickened me then and does to this day.
To be frank, the kneejerk opposition to many of the socially progressive proposals of the last Parliament (minimum pricing principally, although prescription charges were an honourable exception) just echoes it.
Visceral hatred may be the private position of many SNP supporters, but it’s never been so nakedly displayed as official policy (beyond the “you’ve had a Scottish majority for ages – what the hell have you done with it?” critique, which tends towards less helpful accusations of personal self-aggrandisement and laziness, and schadenfreude over the Jim Devines of this country)
#24 by Chris on May 17, 2011 - 9:40 pm
On the visceral hatred, have you read much of the Scottish blogosphere? A lot of Labour people I know have been physically attacked by SNP supporters at some point. This has happened to me during the Central and Govan by-elections and as a teenager in Cumbernauld. People who regard their opponents as traitors don’t seem to hold much concern for the finer points of debating. I guess the new, modern SNP is a long way from that – but people’s memories don’t fade.
Onto Labour and the Saltire. The main problem Labour had was that it was not Labour enough; and that for many people the SNP were more Labour than Labour. For example, crime is as serious issue in working class areas and Labour is right to take it seriously. But all the authoritarian rubbish (mandatory jail sentences for knives, etc.) was a complete turn off.
There is a strong place in Scottsh politics for a Centre-Left party which is sceptical of independence. I think that is pretty close to the heart of Scottish politics. There is also a need for Labour to speak up for poor and working class people. It almost seems bizarre to say that as Labour has managed to position itself to the right of the SNP despite most Labour members being much further left than the stated position of Labour or the SNP.
So we should be voting to abolish the council tax and replacing it with a property tax; we should state squarely that the Labour Party in Scotland is opposed to Trident. We should also make it clear that we oppose independence not because we are unionists (mostly we are neither unionists nor nationalists) nor because we think Scotland can’t do it (we could if we want to) but that the proponents of independence have still failed to make a coherent economic, social and political case for change.
There are many radical voices within Labour who have been pushed aside by the Blairites and arguably by the Brownites. However this catastrophe for Labour does have the effect of sweeping out many of the worst careerists and bag carriers as well as destroying their message of play safe, hit the centre ground, rubbish your opponents, etc.
#25 by Martinb on May 17, 2011 - 11:23 pm
@Chris
You’re bang on – on many issues (particularly related to civil liberties and neoliberal economics), the recent Labour party has found itself to the right of the Tories even.
Your Centre-Left, independence-sceptical party would be a party I could respect, even if I’d disagree with it on constitutional matters. But it would need to stop defining itself in terms of who it opposes and start working on the basis of what it’s trying to achieve.