I’ve been having a look inside the Lib Dem numbers in last week’s election, just to see how big their fall has been. Â And its pretty far. Â There’s no real analysis of why this happened in this post – I’ll let you make up your own mind on that – its just an overview of the numbers we’re talking about.
Some baseline figures first. Â The Lib Dems had 16 seats before the election. Â They now have 5. Â They held 11 constituency seats in 2007. Â That figure is now 2 – Orkney Islands and Shetland Islands. Â But its the voting numbers behind that which will give a bit more pause for thought.
On the constituency vote the Lib Dems took 157,714 votes – that is, 7.9% of the vote. Â In 2007 they took 326,232 constituency votes or 16.2% of the vote then. Â In the intervening four years the Lib Dems have lost 168,518 votes on the constituency vote – down 8.2%. Â These numbers are massive.
On the regional vote, the Lib Dems took 103,472 votes – 5.2% of the vote. Â In 2007, that figure was 230,671, 11.3% of the vote. Â That’s down 127,199 from 2007, a loss of 6.1%. Â Those numbers are equally massive.
Add together the reduction of vote on both constituency and regional ballots and the Lib Dems have lost over a quarter of a million votes between the 2 elections – 295,717 to be precise. Â Now, granted a lot of them will perhaps have been double-Lib Dem votes, but that’s still a sizeable fall. Â A collapse, for want of a better word.
Let’s have a closer look at the Lib Dem vote in a region-by-region breakdown.
Central Scotland:
2007 – 14,628
2011 – Â 3,318
Glasgow:
2007 – 14,767
2011 – 5,312
Highlands & Islands:
2007 – 37,001
2011 – 21,729
Lothians:
2007 – 36,571
2011 – Â 15,588
Mid-Scotland & Fife:
2007 – 36,195
2011 – Â 15,103
North-East Scotland:
2007 – 40,934
2011 – Â 18,178
South of Scotland:
2007 – 28,084
2011 – Â 15,096
West of Scotland:
2007 – 22,515
2011 – 9,148
Only in the Highlands & Islands and the South of Scotland did the Lib Dem regional vote not fall by more than 50%. Â In Central that figure was 78%.
Its hard to know if the picture is better or bleaker on the constituency vote. Â Let’s look at the share of the vote in constituencies held by Lib Dems in 2007 and how far they fell in 2011.
Aberdeen South & North Kincardine:
2007 – 10,843
2011 -Â 4,994
Aberdeenshire West:
2007 – 14,314
2011 – 8,074
Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross:
2007 – 8,981
2011 – 6,385
Dunfermline:
2007 – 9,952
2011 – Â 5,776
Edinburgh Southern:
2007 – 11,398
2011 – 8,297
Edinburgh Western:
2007 – 13,667
2011 – Â 9,276
Fife North East:
2007 – 13,307
2011 – 8,427
Midlothian South, Tweeddale & Lauderdale:
2007 – 10,636
2011 – Â 8,931
Skye, Lochaber & Badenoch:
2007 – 13,501
2011 – 9,742
And the two that the party won:
Orkney Islands:
2007 – Â 4,113
2011 – 2,912
Shetland Islands:
2007 – 6,531
2011 – Â 4,462
Sizeable falls in each.  Not to mention the 25 constituencies in which the Lib Dems fell below 5% of the vote, losing their deposit on the way.  That’s £12,500 worth of deposits the party won’t be getting back.  Calling it a bad night for the party is understating it considerably.
I don’t give my colleagues enough credit sometimes – but James saw it coming in this post 5 weeks before the election. Â And I was making the case that the Lib Dems hadn’t really said anything about anything other than policing the week before it.
I don’t want this to sound like I’m kicking the Lib Dems when they are down, nor do I take any great pleasure in losing some of their MSPs from Parliament. Â I very much liked Margaret Smith and Iain Smith as MSPs, and Jeremy Purvis, “marmite” figure though he occasionally may be (that suit!!!), was a very, very competent finance spokesman. Â So I’m sad to see a few of them out of Holyrood. Â That said – I don’t think as a party there is anything distinctive there. Â There’s no hook for the public to vote for them. Â If you are a social democrat, you’ll vote SNP or Labour. Â If you are slightly environmental, you vote Green. Â If you are kind of centre-right, you vote Tory. Â What do the Lib Dems offer? Â Are they particularly liberal or democratic? Â If they are, I’m not convinced they’ve done a good job convincing anyone of it – and 290,000 fewer votes suggests I’m right about that.
I guess what I’m saying is what James was saying 6 weeks ago. Â Sometimes parties lose go away. Â Now perhaps that was a little premature – especially since the party are in power at Westminster. Â Will’s analysis offers some hope for the Lib Dems in Scotland, so I suppose if you are a Lib Dem and this has depressed you much, that’s where you should head. Â But whatever you do – have a good look at the numbers above first. Â There’s a big problem for you – how to attract those voters back. Â Because without something distinctive, it may take you sometime to see them again.
#1 by Gryff on May 12, 2011 - 2:40 pm
‘If you are a social democrat, you’ll vote SNP or Labour. If you are slightly environmental, you vote Green. If you are kind of centre-right, you vote Tory.’
And who do you vote for if you are a Liberal?
Putting aside the LDs success or otherwise as a party, I think it is clear that there is a gap in the market, Liberalism has always been a minority pursuit, and perhaps always will be, but I don’t believe it can die overnight.
#2 by James on May 12, 2011 - 2:42 pm
If you’re a social liberal you can vote either Green or (to a lesser extent – e.g. on gay marriage) SNP. If you’re an economic liberal you can vote Tory. If you’re both you’ll end up having to choose. It’s a pretty small overlap, mostly Orange Bookers.
#3 by Thomas Widmann on May 12, 2011 - 6:00 pm
Indeed. Personally, I’m both socially and economically liberal, but I’m also pro-independence, so I ended up voting for the SNP. I suspect that the group of voters that are socially and economically liberal *and* pro-unionist is very small.
#4 by Malc on May 12, 2011 - 2:44 pm
Well… that’s kind of my point. I’ve literally just been speaking to a Lib Dem who made a comment that, at times anyway, they didn’t think the Lib Dems position on particular issues (the referendum for a start) were particularly liberal or democratic. I agree – if the party were a true liberal party, that’s where you might consider going if you were a liberal. But the Greens are probably more liberal-minded on many issues than the Lib Dems are… so its not like they are distinct on that either.
#5 by James on May 12, 2011 - 3:07 pm
For example, when Kenny brought plans to eliminate all sentences below 6 months, Greens agreed, but it was LD intransigence which meant 3 months became the cut-off chosen.
#6 by Malc on May 12, 2011 - 3:20 pm
‘zactly.
#7 by douglasmclellan on May 12, 2011 - 3:25 pm
That would have been me you were speaking to then.
Anway, James is right to an extent. I am ultra-comfortable in my space that is the overlap between economic liberalism and social liberalism that is roughly defined being an Orange Bookers. However, that is not where Scotland is and we needed a very different message in Scotland than was presented during the election. Saying that, I thought that the manifesto was very good but the intense focus on local policing overrode another manifesto issue.
The selling of Scottish Waters debt had a number of benefits that were never explored in any meaningful way. As it is just now, we have Scottish Water borrowing at credit card rates from the Scottish Government to pay for its capital expenditure (thus reducing the block grant) whilst the Scottish Government is borrowing from the Treasury for its capital expenditure.
Our illogical position on things like the referendum meant voters didnt bother listening to anything else we were saying (all they would have heard at a national level was Police Police Police anyway). According to Tavish’s logic, that a vote for the SNP last Thursday was a de-facto vote for independence, it means that the people of Scotland did, in effect vote for an independent Scotland.
Thing is, I am quite optimistic about the future of the Scottish Lib Dems. The council elections next year will be bad but I think that the 2015 Westminster and 2016 Scottish elections will allow us to present a truly Scottish message. I predict that we will double our MSPs in 2016 (or do well in an independent Scottish Parliament). However, if we dont get it right and fail to be Scottish then we will die a death.
Oh, as well as the Lib Dem downfall, James predicted a Green rise in MSPs. One in every region. Well he was half right.
#8 by Malc on May 12, 2011 - 3:32 pm
I didn’t say it was you. But you can claim to be my muse if you wish.
#9 by douglasmclellan on May 12, 2011 - 3:48 pm
Well unless you are in the habit of wondering around Stockbridge meeting Lib Dems???
#10 by Malc on May 12, 2011 - 3:56 pm
Point was that I wasn’t outing you as my source!
#11 by douglasmclellan on May 12, 2011 - 4:05 pm
Dont worry about that. I never say anything to anyone that I would fear being repeated to a wider audience.
#12 by Doug Daniel on May 12, 2011 - 6:39 pm
That’s the skeleton in Malc’s closet that stops him from becoming a politician.
#13 by Allan on May 12, 2011 - 7:09 pm
Douglas.
A lot of what you are saying is true. However a quick look at the Lib dem literatue which came through my door sees no mention of Scottish water and a small mention of the policing issue on page 2. Very vague about policy areas and gagging to be squeezed out of the debate.
#14 by rlemkin on May 12, 2011 - 3:25 pm
Equally I’m a little worried that when it comes to being ‘Green’ the Greens are in a little danger. While those that really care will spot the greenwashing policies it looks like the SNP has won most of the soft green vote – anti-nukes, pro-renewables etc.
#15 by Danny1995 on May 12, 2011 - 3:29 pm
I’ll be blunt, the Lib Dems are going nowhere in Scotland whilst in westminister coalition with the Tories.
They’ll get hammered in next year’s council polls, they’ll lose their MEP in 2014 and maybe half their MPs in 2015. I do think their next real chance of good gains is the 2016 Holyrood election.
A more immediate indication will be the Inverclyde by-election(RIP David Cairns). They got 13.3% last year and finished 3rd above the Conservatives. They’d love to hold onto 3rd, but I think quietly they’ll just hope to keep their deposit.
#16 by Gavin Hamilton on May 12, 2011 - 4:04 pm
I think the LibDem future in Scotland depends very much on the pereception of the LibDems at Westminster and the SNP at Holyrood in the next three or four years.
I also think the LibDems must work hard at playing a full part in the thought leadership of ideas to take Scotland forward – and then establishing a simple and clear positioning.
Remember, they are in governemnet in the UK and in the UK context – which we are part of remember – they are actually larger than the SNP.
The MPs – a number of whom are strong performers need to be visible in Scotland and involved in the debate.
The LibDems are a non socialist alternative to the Conservatives.
In Scotland they are also a non nationalist alternative to Labour.
They lost a lot of votes to the Nats who positioned themselves as a moderate left of centre party – and a positive aspirational modern party – not necessarily that nationalist!!
The LibDems need to remind people why they used to like them – the nats may not, long term, be the ideal vehicle for everyone who voted for them.
They also need to stay engaged in places where they had strong but not strong enough vote – note some of the constituencies.
I agree the campaign was crap and the police while a good electyion point was not the thing tp base the campaign on.
As a LibDem voter I blogged about this yesterday 🙂
http://ghmltn.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-next-for-libdems-in-scotland.html
#17 by dcomerf on May 12, 2011 - 4:19 pm
Scotsman front page quite interesting this morning: get rid of Moore and start pushing Steel commission report on fully federal UK. If they go far enough along these lines Salmond could get someone within the LibDems on board to propose that third question for the referendum.
#18 by Gavin Hamilton on May 12, 2011 - 4:23 pm
Hmmmm
The Greens?
They are not Greenpeace nor do I see them as being especially liberal.
One LibDem voter (not me) said of the Greens, ‘I don’t like them, in fact I think they are far left control freaks’
Its just a view that some have, but I don’t think they are an immediate home for erstwhile LibDem voters at all!!
#19 by douglasmclellan on May 12, 2011 - 4:42 pm
Far left I get and agree with. Control freaks? Can’t see it.
But soft Lib Dem, beardy & sandal type voters may have seen some attraction in the Greens. Ditto some of the students (but this may have been before one or two gaps in the LVT policy were exposed).
#20 by James on May 12, 2011 - 4:44 pm
I’m wondering what we’re seeking to control. If you can find a socially illiberal bit of Green policy, please do let me know.
#21 by Gavin Hamilton on May 12, 2011 - 5:04 pm
I agree to the extent that I see the Greens as having a comprehensive left manifesto which is socially liberal and strong on civil liberties but strongly against unfettered market forces!
I think some voters find this mix comes with a certain amount of political correctness and the strong left and fettering of market forces and bringing about of sustainibility innevitably involves controls
#22 by Lordie, lord lord on May 12, 2011 - 5:05 pm
I think they will have a real problem winning back Aberdeenshire and Highland seats.These tend to vote for incumbants, if the incumbant of any party, nurtures the seat as a local member.
So tatty boggle to their “heartlands”
(Orkney and Shetland excepted)
#23 by John Ruddy on May 12, 2011 - 6:40 pm
Are you saying that they didnt nuture their seats that they lost? Ok, I assume Nicol Stephen lost interest in Aberdeen South & Kincardine, but Mike Rumbles certainly stood up for his area.
#24 by Doug Daniel on May 12, 2011 - 10:27 pm
Well, I can’t speak for Aberdeenshire West, but certainly AS&NK was a battle between Maureen Watt and John Sleigh – a nice woman who is known in the area (especially as her dad was an MP) and who was already a list MSP, versus a guy who not only looked wet behind the ears, but had just been rejected by the voters in the 2010 election. I was saying ages ago that AS&NK would probably be going to Maureen Watt, but with hindsight it was a complete a no-brainer.
As for Rumbles, well, maybe people in Aberdeenshire West watch Holyrood Live and have seen the man in action!
#25 by rlemkin on May 12, 2011 - 11:08 pm
Then in the end Gregg Williams came 2nd for Labour. Well done to the Lib Dems there..
#26 by Thomas Widmann on May 12, 2011 - 6:07 pm
Given how badly the LibDems did in most constituencies, I wonder whether it’ll make any sense for them to put up candidates in most seats i five years’ time. Would it be better for them to stand only in the regions (apart from those few constituencies where they are the incumbents or main challengers) and try to hammer home a message of ‘list vote LibDem’…?
The fact is that they got more constituency votes than list votes, but the former were entirely wasted on the mainland.
#27 by douglasmclellan on May 12, 2011 - 6:42 pm
I had wondered about that myself and if we dont see any improvement in our position by more than a seat or 2 at the next Scottish election then we may have to think about where we are standing and why.
I would argue that in some regions it would be better to have constituency candidates and others it would be better just to stay on the list – Glasgow being a possible example.
But that would mean that we really had lost our way as a party as there is a sense of pride that (provided the candidate gets their paperwork in) we do stand a candidate for every ballot in Scotland.
#28 by James on May 12, 2011 - 6:49 pm
Perhaps then you’ll do a joint appeal with us to get into the debates. One each perhaps.
#29 by douglasmclellan on May 14, 2011 - 11:50 am
Planning the 2020 debates already?
#30 by John Ruddy on May 12, 2011 - 8:24 pm
I think a lot will depend on what happens at Westminster the year before.
If in 2015 the Lib Dems get a kicking and the tories are out of office, then the Lib Dems in Scotland could get rehabilitated.
#31 by Benjamin on May 12, 2011 - 6:50 pm
I wonder if that would backfire though. How many people would feel motivated to give their list vote to LibDems without a personal candidate to vote for?
Likewise, I’ve been wondering recently whether the Second Vote Green campaign is really for the best, and whether the Greens might get more list votes if they appeared on at least some of the constituency ballots too.
#32 by cynicalHighlander on May 12, 2011 - 11:01 pm
The LibDem canditate here lives err 150mls away with Charlie Kennedy on the front and a scared looking women facing a bobby on the back and no mention of Tavish.
#33 by rlemkin on May 12, 2011 - 7:22 pm
It depends, should they lose most their MPs at the next General Election will it become a financial necessity?
As for the Green I have my reservations about the strategy. Personally I think it devalues the party and makes you look like a 2nd choice. So many people asked me “well why not 1st vote Green?”.
How do we break the impression that we are a fringe party if we don’t fight the other parties at their level!
#34 by Graham on May 12, 2011 - 7:51 pm
I spent practically the whole of last weekend glued to the internet, reading various reactions to the election result. I thought I detected what were early indications that some SLDs were beginning to understand the magnitude of their rejection at the polls and that fundamental policy and attitude adjustments would be required of their party to address this.
I’ve never understood how the LDs have managed to continue branding themselves such, while at the same time opposing independence and a referendum. That’s blatantly neither liberal nor democratic. If the LD party was a business it could be successfully prosecuted under the Trade Descriptions Act.
The SGP, of which I am neither a member nor voter, appears much more liberal and democratic.
#35 by Thomas Widmann on May 12, 2011 - 7:56 pm
I agree. You sometimes hear LibDems argue that liberalism is anti-nationalistic, but defending the UK strongly is nationalistic, too. The proper liberal stance to my mind would be to be agnostic with regard to Scottish independence and to support a referendum.
#36 by douglas clark on May 12, 2011 - 10:09 pm
Quite astonished that the Liberal Democrats didn’t push their federalist vision for the UK at all at the last election. It isn’t my position, but opinion polls show that it might have resonated with the voters.
Maybe that’s just the benefit of hindsight. But headlining policies about being against Police centralisation or flogging off Scottish Water were hardly inspirational.
#37 by Keith Legg on May 13, 2011 - 9:15 am
To me, liberalism is about de-centralisation and the ability of government to put individuals in the position to help themselves whilst providing the safety net for those who can’t.
That’s why (independence aside) I couldn’t vote SNP, and also couldn’t vote Green. The SNP has a centralising tendancy – something a colleague neatly described to me as “Scottish municipal socialism” – as demonstrated by the policing proposals and the removal of the ability for councils to set their council tax rate. The Green Party has some good policies, but is essentially a left-wing party in Scotland – probably further left than Labour.
Just to point out though – the SNP vote surge didn’t show in Lib Dem canvass returns, and from speaking to activists in other parties it didn’t show in their’s either. To me, it suggests it was a last minute (i.e. last week) switch, and given that a lot came in areas where the SNP traditionally don’t have a vote and virtually no organisation (i.e. NE Fife, Kirkcaldy) could actually be quite soft (another 1974, maybe?)
I think the damage to the Lib Dems was twofold. Firstly, the “presidentialisation” of the campaign played straight into the SNP hands. Nobody’s ever doubted that Salmond is popular with the public, but what that meant was that there simply wasn’t proper scrutiny of policy because Salmond was able to just brush concerns away, knowing that voters didn’t mind. It also meant that there was an increasing focus on the leaders, which I think Tavish found increasingly uncomfortable.
Secondly, the coalition itself. Speaking to people during the campaign, I found that there was a degree of personal sympathy for Nick Clegg and an understanding of why he made the decision on the coalition that he did. That said, it didn’t mean that the people who said that would still vote for us. To me the only real answer is some sort of internal party restructure which could give the Scottish party the ability to oppose the coalition on things which are bad for Scotland.
#38 by Indy on May 13, 2011 - 6:01 pm
I think the Lib Dems are finished for the foreseeable future in the central belt. I noticed that when I was entering canvass returns people who had previously identified themselves as Lib Dem voters with a Lib Dem voting intention were now saying that they had no party identification. Their voting intentions varied – I don’t believe the Lib Dem vote actually transferred en masse to the SNP. It was more complex than that.
But it doesn’t matter much. I did not encounter a single person who identified themselves as a Lib Dem supporter. That tells its own story. They have become even more toxic than the Tories in my opinion.