This is a hypothetical situation… don’t worry about the numbers so much. We’ll know soon enough whether the predictions Jeff and I (and Kate, over at A Burdz Eye View) have been making will be on the money or nowhere near. Â But I want to cast my eyes and our collective brains to possible outcomes.
It is now 6 May. The results are in. The campaign is (thankfully) over. We now have the following break-down of MSPs:
Labour (or SNP) – 52
SNP (or Labour) – 50
Conservatives – 16
Lib Dems – 7
Greens – 3
Independent – 1
For this analysis, it doesn’t really matter who wins the most seats, but we can run the potential outcomes with both Labour and the SNP as the largest party.
Suppose these numbers are accurate (give or take 2 or 3 seats, which I know could make all the difference, but bear with me). Also, considering that we’ll need a Presiding Officer from somewhere – likely from Labour, since we’ve had Lib Dem, Conservative and SNP MSPs fill the PO’s chair in the first three sessions, the numbers will need revised to account for that.
In this scenario, the only potential winning combination is between the winning or second place party and the third place party (52 + 16 = 68, 50 + 16 = 66). In reality, the third place party is the Conservatives, and formal coalition between them and either the SNP or Labour seems unlikely (verging on impossible). Indeed, any kind of Conservative agreement to sustain Labour in power (as a minority administration) seems unlikely. There is more likelihood that some kind of deal between the SNP and the Conservatives could be done – its unlikely to involve ministerial positions for the Conservatives, but could be a policy-for-power deal: maintaining the SNP in power and passing budgets for the pursuit of several Conservative policies (which we’ll find out more about after the manifesto is published).
But if that can’t happen, or if we’re in a situation whereby Labour win the most seats and the Conservatives feel that, tactical considerations aside, morally Labour have the first opportunity at being the government, what then? Two options, I suppose – Labour minority government (which, if they had the most seats, would be the logical way to go first) or SNP minority government, which has the potential to follow a failed Labour administration.
But here’s something to consider. The vote for First Minister. You only need 2 MSPs to nominate you for FM, and you can be in the contest.
In 2007, after a limited deal was worked out between the SNP and the Greens, well short of even “confidence and supply”, the Greens did not put forward a candidate for First Minister and cast their votes for Alex Salmond on both the first round (when there were four candidates) and in the run off between Salmond and Jack McConnell (incidentally – Margo abstained on both votes).
In 2003, however, there were SEVEN candidates for First Minsister: Â Dennis Canavan (Ind), Robin Harper (Green), Margo MacDonald (Ind), Jack McConnell (Labour), David McLetchie (Conservative), Tommy Sheridan (SSP) and John Swinney (SNP), with Jack McConnell taking all Labour and Lib Dem MSP votes, totally 67 and being elected as FM.
I guess the point is this: how desperate will Labour or the SNP be to stop their rival taking office? Meaning – if neither can secure a formal coalition or agreement with any of the other parties to take them over the threshold, might either consider voting for another party to take office, to buy time? Specifically, if the Greens had 3 MSPs, or indeed Margo found an SNP MSP to nominate her, might either party consider voting for either Patrick Harvie or Margo MacDonald as First Minister?
It sounds far-fetched. In fact, it sounds downright loopy – a political party sacrificing itself and its own opportunity to put another party in office without an agreement in place. And, of course, many of you will think – this being a Green-leaning blog – that I’m “punting the party line” or making the Greens out to be in a more powerful position than they perhaps will be.  You’ll have to trust that isn’t what I’m up to.  Its just that, from some of the sheer loathing I’ve heard expressed from SNP and Labour activists in the early days of this campaign, I’m willing to believe that both parties would rather see any other party in power than their bitter rival, despite whatever policy and/or ideological positions they share.
Thus, if neither can make a formal agreement (either for full coalition or for support as a minority administration) with the Conservatives or the Greens, would they then vote for someone else as FM? This is where the numbers are important. If you are the larger party, there is no way you’d consider it. Â But if you were the second party – and you have 50 MSP votes – you could direct them to vote for the Green candidate for FM which, with their 3 votes, would surpass the leading party’s 52.
In fact, this is perhaps more likely (if it is likely at all) to come from the SNP than Labour. Given the primacy of the constitutional issue (above all else) for them – to spin a Stephen Noon question around – would the SNP prefer a pro-union Labour party in government to a pro-independence Green First Minister? Â If not, this is a course of action which might help them out in stopping a Labour First Minister after the election (if the numbers worked out).
No mistake – this is a desperation play. Â And I doubt very much that any party would go for it. Â But two things it has in its favour: it buys time beyond the 28-day period in which a First Minister has to be elected in order to conduct coalition discussions and it would stop a detested rival from taking power. Â We can perhaps add to that a potential third advantage to those who would vote them in – the “temporary” First Minister would have all the responsibilities of governmental office, meaning that whoever put them there might be able to escape some of the political backlash for any unpopular governmental decisions made in the time period.
Unlikely – yes. Â Something to consider? Â It probably already has been…
#1 by Steve on April 4, 2011 - 9:39 am
I think the Tories will support SNP if they are biggest, but if Labour win won’t the moral case to govern argument apply, and so all others will abstain at least and we get Iain Gray.
If You’re numbers are anywhere near (and I hope you’re wrong that there won’t be any SSP MSPs) then once again there is no majority for the abolition of council tax, and no majority for a referendum on independence.
#2 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 9:47 am
We’ve never seen any party abstain on the first vote for First Minister yet… so if this logic holds, we’d likely see at least 5 candidates (LAB, SNP, CON, LD, GRN) for FM in the first instance. In that case, either party could back their own candidate – or someone else. I’m not convinced the Tories would SUPPORT the SNP in a vote for FM – that’d be active support – but I agree that if Salmond does become FM, they’d likely back them on issue-by-issue basis (more passive support).
That said – “the moral case to govern” as you put it. Jack McConnell made it clear in 2007 that he thought the largest party should have “first option” to try to put together a stable government. That’s not quite the same as winning the most seats = governing. Its simply saying that you get first chance, if you screw up, can’t get a majority or can’t get elected as FM then someone else can have a go at it. Nick Clegg used the same logic post-2010 General Election. I think it rests upon getting enough support to be FM – which includes abstentions or voting for another party. So yes – this is a tricky concept.
#3 by Shuna on April 4, 2011 - 10:17 am
Going off subject here slightly – but I am getting a wee bit tired of the anti Gray views being shared all the time.
Why is the idea of Iain Gray as FM such a bad thing? (I know I am a labour member/supporter and as such am biased.)
But I work in a field where I have to lead, I have to make a 15/20 minute speech every week (sometimes more often), manage meetings, visit people at home (on the door step if you like – but most times I get invited in! Ha! Take that you politicians! 😉 ), I make decisions that affect people in my area etc etc. I also work in a field where not everyone in my role is a showman that oozes whatever it is people think Mr Salmond oozes (because to me it is not gravitas but something quite different). Also I work in a field where the quiet man is just as effective as the loudmouth.
There was a really good interview with Iain Gray in last weeks Scotland on Sunday – it makes interesting reading. Personally I would like more of this Iain Gray pushed forward – instead of the negative sniping that comes from those who cant see past Mr Salmond as FM. Have a read: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/news/Interview-Iain-Gray-Scottish-Labour.6740977.jp
Let the mudslinging begin….. (cos sadly I know it will – but you could always prove me wrong)
#4 by James on April 4, 2011 - 10:24 am
Shuna, neither inspire me either on telly or in person, but I agree the media does appear to have built up a bogus gulf between them. My guess is just that Salmond evokes far stronger feelings – he’s a bigger personality, but that cuts both ways. I know plenty of people who would vote SNP who won’t because they regard him as a bully. Marmite. Others of course love him, the swagger, the booming couthy phrases, whatnot.
#5 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 10:40 am
To be honest, this has developed over time I think. I distinctly recall an interview with Iain Gray just after her took over as leader which didn’t paint a very flattering picture of him… and I don’t think he has done much to confound those views of him. I’m trying to be positive/ constructive here – but his FMQ performances have been lacklustre or shouty – he can’t decide which strategy works best – and when there has been a chance of being constructive, like actively voting FOR the government’s budget with things that Labour wanted in it, he chose not to.
I’m not saying Salmond’s bluster is all I’m looking for in a First Minister – but for me he has a vision for Scotland which, crucially in the age of minute-by-minute media coverage, he is able to articulate in a manner which lets people understand what he stands for. I’ve never gotten that from Iain Gray. For me, one of the primary aspects of leadership is that articulation of what it is you stand for – and if people are with you on that then that’s when they follow you. That’s what I see as missing from both Iain Gray and Scottish Labour at the moment – a sense of purpose, an articulation of ideology, a clear direction of travel. And leadership. But the latter is difficult to do when you don’t have the former.
#6 by Colin on April 4, 2011 - 10:46 am
Yes, there is a cybernattish tendency to shriek that Gray would be a “disaster” as FM, which is reminiscent of the kind of thing Labour said about the SNP in 2007. I don’t know why they bother. No one’s going to look at Gray and see Barry Goldwater. Most likely, if he gets in, Holyrood will just fade into the background for a while and the focus will switch to the UK scene. I think we’ll survive.
#7 by Charles on April 4, 2011 - 10:49 am
#3 What we’re seeing here is Iain Gray and the other parties being out-muscled by the social media savvy SNP.
As far as I can see all non- or poorly moderated blogs (not this one!), online votes and twitter are being dominated by the Nationalists, with any posts/tweets etc. counter to the SNP agenda being vigorously put down.
You can test this by leaving a pro-Labour/Con/LibDem/Green post on the BBC political blog, the Scotsman or the Daily record and watch the abuse you’ll receive. The online poll for the leaders’ debate is another case in point, allowing multiple vote submissions, and resulting in a biased result – not even the most yellow-tinted spectacle wearing SNP member would believe this poll.
The plus side for the other parties is that this may be balanced out by the traditional news media – which tend not to support the SNP.
I’m I alone in thinking this?
Also thought Richard Baker just shaded it against a very quiet Kenny McKascill yesterday on the BBC politics show. That Megrahi story just won’t go away.
#8 by Indy on April 4, 2011 - 10:54 am
I don’t think it is necessarily Iain Gray that is the problem so much as the people who are advising him. The “angry man” personna doesn’t seem real and he looks uncomfortable with it.
Believe it or not I do feel some sympathy for Iain Gray. The press can be horrible. I remember how bad it was when John Swinney was SNP leader and they decided to go after him. But unfortunately that kind of thing just comes with the territory.
And on the plus side John came back from that experience stronger than before so even if the worst happens for Iain Gray it’s not the end of the world.
#9 by DougtheDug on April 4, 2011 - 11:22 am
A rather interesting contrast here between the complaint that Iain Gray is getting a hard time and the words used to describe Alex Salmond’s character by various posters on here such as:
Oozes
bully
swagger
bluster
Since there is a Minister posting perhaps the admonition, “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” should be considered.
#10 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 11:44 am
Hmmm… well, yes, certainly we could perhaps choose more, constructive language (for what its worth, I don’t think “bluster” is quite as negative as “bully” and “swagger” but I guess you want to build a picture here). And I don’t want to appear that I’m trying to be above the fray, nor that I think its okay to be negative – as long as your are not too negative – but I think the language around Salmond on here pales into insignificance in comparison to some of the stuff written about Iain Gray in recent weeks (especially on the Scotsman comment boards).
Let’s make a deal. We’ll all try to use less loaded language – on all sides.
#11 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 11:45 am
Anyway, thanks to Shuna(!) we seem to be off-topic entirely. Is that an indication that my idea is being treated with the contempt it deserves? I’m not offended if that is the case – I know its a crazy idea…
#12 by Shuna on April 4, 2011 - 11:51 am
smite me down – for I am a sinner. I am well aware of the log sticking out my eye. I am afraid politics does that to me! But thankfully my God is a forgiving God.
I used the word ‘oozes’ and someone else mentioned marmite…. About sums it up really.
But nice to see some more possitive comments re Iain Gray (even if Malc is not persuaded 😉 ) And for the first time I can honestly say – I agree with Indy!
#13 by Shuna on April 4, 2011 - 12:01 pm
Type your comment here
Whoops sorry Malc. Me bad.
Back to your origional point of discussion – the various senarios are facinating. The idea of any party giving the FMership to the leader of another party just so they can be part of the government cant work surely? Not with what has happened in Westminster. I cant see how the SNP or Labour parties would countenance that.
But a refreshing idea but personally I think the most likely senario (seeing as the LDs are out of the picture) would be a deal between SNP/Tories. With Mr Salmond retaining his position. Or a minority Labour government.
#14 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 12:08 pm
I may have mis-represented this slightly. How this would unfold, at least for me, would be for a party to vote for Patrick Harvie for FM over Iain Gray or Alex Salmond. Thus, given he’d have most votes, he’d become FM. How the Greens decided then to run government would be up to them. It would likely be a “caretaker” government until a coalition could be worked out. I didn’t mean that either Labour or the SNP would vote for Patrick Harvie for FM then expect him to appoint them to government… all I meant was it would buy them time to work out a coalition with someone, and then take over government with their coalition… it was simply an idea at a stalling tactic, to give parties more time to work out an agreement. But I recognise the difficulty of a party governing with just 3 MSPs!
I personally think we’re looking at minority government again – either Labour or SNP. I can’t see either going for a formal coalition with the Tories, and if the numbers suggested above are anywhere close to accurate, that’d be the only option for a winning-coalition. I suspect (as I said in the piece) the Tories would back the SNP on issue-by-issue basis (as in previous term) but I’m not sure they would do the same for Labour.
#15 by cynicalHighlander on April 4, 2011 - 1:24 pm
Cart before the horse as a government has to be established before any talk of a PO.
#16 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 1:41 pm
Sorry, but I think you are wrong. The Presiding Officer is elected before the First Minister is. At least, that’s what happened in 2007 and 2003 and 1999. And I think that it is set out in the Scotland Act, but I can’t find the correct passage.
#17 by cynicalHighlander on April 4, 2011 - 9:40 pm
Sorry my typo FM don’t know why I put PO, scratches head.
#18 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 9:59 pm
Indeed. Well, you’d only be half right on there “needing to be a government before we get an FM” as well. Its true to a point – the PO will take advice from potential FM-elects as to when to hold a vote. BUT it still has to be done within 28 days – according to the Scotland Act. That was the logic I was working off – this isn’t a potential-government solution, simply a stalling tactic until something got worked out. The Belgians took 200+ days to get a government sorted out… so its not unknown for negotiations to drag out!
#19 by Alex on April 4, 2011 - 12:16 pm
Though this scenario is interesting, I think it is an extremely remote prospect that anyone either than Alex Salmond or Ian Gray becomes first first Minisiter. Why? Well though I understand the theory of the post, I think what would actually happen is constitutional chaos if you do not elect the government first time round. How would the government function otherwise, even for a short period? Would SNP/Labour members become ministers in the short run? Would it just be the Green members?
I think far more likely, as in 2007, if the Greens (or other smaller party) hold the balance of power between Labour and the SNP, that they will come to an agreement to either vote with one of them, or abstain.
Going on 2007, once it came to the run-off, the other parties abstained, leaving just SNP+Green v Labour members voting.
Now maybe, the Tories or Libs will agree a deal to vote for a FM, in exchange for policy commitments (I can’t see a formal coalition from either – are the SNP not constitutionally bound not to form government with the Tories anyway?)
I think the Greens could well hold the keys to Bute House, but they will be giving them to one or the other of the main parties.
#20 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 12:31 pm
I think you are probably right… to a point. If this happened, it is likely constitutional chaos would follow… but my point was kind of this: for the SNP, wouldn’t this be preferable to a unionist party taking office?
Other than that – your likely outcomes are probably. Though the point may be active or passive support from the Greens? As in – if Labour are largest and the SNP second, they’d have to ACTIVELY support the SNP for them to take office (and the SNP would have to offer something) while if they simply sat on their hands (PASSIVE support) then Labour would be able to take control (assuming the other two parties abstain). In the latter case, they are not so much giving Labour the keys as not stopping them from getting them. Sure, that’s a minor distinction – but in coalition theory, its an important one.
#21 by John Ruddy on April 4, 2011 - 2:59 pm
The SNP may be constitutionally bound not to form a Government with the tories, but I think it is increasingly likely that they will. There is a personal chemistry there that is not there between the SNP and any of the other parties.
And as we saw in Westminster, sometimes, chemistry between the two main players can trump any other mere policy or constitutional considerations.
#22 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 3:10 pm
Yes… except that the wider SNP party machine wouldn’t let them. I don’t know how SNP negotiations work, but if it went anywhere near the NEC or the wider party – or even the parliamentary party – there is no way a formal coalition with the Tories would get off the ground. At least, that’s the view from outside the tent – I’m sure I can find some activists who’ll say the same. That said, I don’t think there has to be a formal coalition between the two, and the policy-for-votes model which we saw last time around is, in my view, the most likely outcome – IF the SNP are the largest party.
#23 by Colin on April 6, 2011 - 10:27 am
The Westminster coalition was about arithmetic, not “personal chemistry”. What do you think the Libs should have done, given that the Cons were the biggest party, a Lib-Lab coalition would have still been a minority, and Labour had rejected a “rainbow coalition” as unviable?
#24 by Indy on April 4, 2011 - 12:21 pm
I think we are looking at minority government again. There are quite a few areas where Labour and the Tories could work together if Labour win. (Though they won’t). On justice Labour and the Tories have virtually identical policies though I imagine the Tories would make keeping 1000 extra police a deal breaker. They also share a commitment to new nuclear power stations though that ship might have sailed now. Bringing back PFI could be another one. There’s quite a few areas where they share policy when you think of it. But nobody will go into coalition.
#25 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 12:33 pm
I think I agree Indy. There are areas of policy overlap between SNP-Labour, SNP-Tory and Labour-Tory… as well as Lib Dems and Greens (though if the numbers are close to being accurate, they might not matter so much). But its the ideological differences and tactical considerations that make coalition, in my view, incredibly unlikely.
#26 by Doug Daniel on April 4, 2011 - 5:04 pm
I’m inclined to think that coalition politics is over in Scotland, at least in the near future. The only reason coalitions are formed is so that the government has the numbers to push through legislation. It’s bourne out of the assumption we all have that parliaments always vote government vs opposition. The SNP’s minority government has proven that parties CAN govern without having that guaranteed majority at all times, so why would parties want to go signing coalition agreements that they have to stick to for a full term? Especially when you look at the trouble the Lib Dems have gotten into by entering into the Westminster coalition – that’s surely going to put potential coalition partners off for a while.
There’s always a chance that the next parliament ends like the last one – i.e. a final year of impotence due to opposition parties being unwilling to give the outgoing government policy wins a few months before an election – and if so, it might become tiresome. But I can’t really see any reason for a formal coalition agreement this time round.
#27 by Doug Daniel on April 4, 2011 - 5:30 pm
In regards to the second party stopping the largest party taking office, bear in mind that the result of the 2010 election was that the majority of people in the UK were NOT in favour of the Tories taking office, and the idea of a rainbow coalition of (supposed) centre-left parties was only really destroyed due to Labour preferring to leave the Lib Dems and Tories to it, having decided that this would be a good election to lose so they could regroup and take a back seat for 4 years, while they figured out what exactly they now stood for.
Keeping in mind that the SNP were very much vocally supportive of that rainbow coalition, it wouldn’t be completely beyond the realms of the imagination if the SNP decided keeping Labour out of office was more important than any “moral” right to the largest party, especially as they would be able to show the majority of the country did NOT want a Labour government. This is the key, really – the only time a party has a moral right to govern is when they have a majority. Anything else is fair game (naturally I said the exact opposite in 2007). I seem to recall Jack McConnell did not go willingly – did he not try to get a coalition together with the Lib Dems? I’m sure it was really the Lib Dems whose decision not to govern with Labour gave the SNP the green light to try and form a government. This is actually in line with another school of thought, that the incumbents are entitled to see if they could carry on – which is probably exactly what would have happened had a potential Laboural Democrat coalition continued to have the numbers to command a majority.
Other European countries have the largest party in opposition – I don’t know if it’s still the case, but France certainly used to regularly have an alliance between the two centre-right parties, despite the socialists being a bigger party than either. Of course, the difference in Scotland is that independence/unionism prevents a straight-forward left/right dichotomy.
Still, my overall point is that Labour not forming the government even if they get the most seats is more than possible. It may ultimately depend on which of Labour and the SNP the other parties deduce would produce the bigger public backlash if they support them, passively or actively.
#28 by Malc on April 4, 2011 - 6:05 pm
Nah – In 2007, McConnell was adamant that, as the largest party, the SNP should have the first chance to have a go at governing.
#29 by David Gray on April 4, 2011 - 8:57 pm
I think the likelihood of an MSP from one of the smaller parties becoming FM is extremely unlikely. I fail to see how it would work out in the long haul. Plus, the media would make a mockery of the situation.
Interesting how the discussion has turned to the next FM. Suggests this election will come down to personality, highlighting a growing trend towards a presidential system. Not sure if this is necessarily good for cabinet government.
In addition, I am hoping for some prospect of a coalition after this election, at the very least to widen the ministerial pool; but, I agree with the previous comments that this will likely not happen. Most interesting scenario might be if Labour and the SNP get the same number of seats – then we’ll see how badly they want the keys to Bute House.
#30 by Holyroodpatter on April 5, 2011 - 12:54 am
Hope my tweet didn’t seem catty and I’m glad malc cleared it up regarding a temporary measure.
Certainly as a relatively young parliament conventions for various eventualities simply aren’t there and so anything is literally possible.
Take for example the somewhat bizarre spectacle of a former presiding officer returning to chair proceedings in 2007 despite no longer being an MSP
So I suppose yes in the frantic and febrile post election atmosphere, anything is possible