With the Scottish Parliament election and the AV referendum (yawn) on the same day this year, there’s been a bit of chat on Twitter regarding whether the constituency element of the Scottish Parliament election should also changeover to AV in the unlikely event that people vote Yes. Â But I think there’s a better way to bring some more proportionality to the system as it currently stands, and that is to make the list component a Scotland-wide list, rather than dividing it into 8 regions.
This has several advantages – we’d be looking at consistent levels of requirement to be elected across Scotland.  In 2007, for example, 10,749 votes got Patrick Harvie elected 7th on Glasgow list, and 10,663 got the last SNP MSP (Dave Thompson) elected in H&I.  However, Lord George Foulkes needed 15,099 to be elected as the last MSP for Labour in Lothians and Stuart McMillan 15,191 to be the last MSP in West.  If we had national lists, in 2007,  you would have needed 14,700 votes to be the last MSP elected, and you this could compensate for big votes in some regions and smaller votes in others.  In other words – every vote would actually count.
Secondly, and probably more importantly, the result is much more proportional.  I’ve been playing with the numbers for a while (and I can email folk my working if anyone is remotely interested!), but based on the 2007 result (on the boundaries at the time) and assuming the constituency vote stayed the same, this is what we’d be looking at:
Now there are several points which are worth exploring here, and I’ll get to some of them now.
First, you’ll notice this would elect a BNP MSP. Â That’d be a downside its true – but if people will vote for them, then they will win seats. Â They were particularly close to getting an AM in the Welsh Assembly in North Wales in 2007 – so that’s something to watch out for. Â But electing 1 extremist is not a reason not to consider this (and there are ways you could minimise this risk, should you want to, which I’ll come to in a moment).
Secondly, you’ll also probably notice much more fragmentation of the party system, certainly compared to what we have at the moment. Â That’s simply because parties in most regions accumulate anything from 1,000 to 6,000 votes in any given region, but haven’t come close to the 10,000+ required to win a seat . Â But add them all together in this kind of system, and suddenly it is enough.
There is a way around this fragmentation – and its a threshold.  In Germany, they use a similar system to here (though their split is 50-50 between constituency and regional members, and its a national list they elect from) and they put a threshold at 5% of the vote – don’t make that, and you get no members elected.  It is designed to stop extremists (especially since German political parties are state funded).  If we did that with this system, the threshold may have to be lower, since only the “Big 4” would make 5%.  I’m instinctively against thresholds – again, they reduce proportionality and, in my mind, are anti-democratic since they ignore some voter’s stated preferences – but I understand the arguments for them.  Not so much the ant-extremist angle, but the controlling fragmentation (and thus allowing efficient government) I get.
I mentioned before that this would be a more proportional system. Â And it would be – here’s the numbers:
For all except the Greens (who didn’t – with one exception – stand constituency candidates) I’ve averaged the vote on both constituency and regional vote to give a reflection of party support as a whole. Â And you can see how close the correlation is: Â The SNP and Labour seat shares are half a percent higher than they “should” be, the Conservatives’ are half a percent lower, and the Greens (and the remaining “Others”) win the seats their vote share suggests they should. Only the Lib Dems are out, by 2% – a direct result of their winning more constituencies than their national share of the vote would dictate. Â They get “punished” for it on the top-up element (which happens with the regional system too).
I’ve run the figures for 1999 and 2003 as well – they appear in the table below – and the results are consistent with what I found running the 2007 vote:
You can see that in both 1999 and 2003, if the lists had been national instead of regional, then there would have been slight differences in the actual outcome. Â Starting with 1999 – Labour would have returned no list MSPs (meaning 3 fewer seats in total) while the SNP and Conservatives end up with 1 and 2 more list MSPs respectively. Â In similar circumstance to 2007, the Lib Dems lose out a bit because they win an over-representation in FPTP seats while the Greens and the SSP would have gained more than they actually did. Â In 2003, again Labour don’t return any list MSPs (and, again, like the Lib Dems, are over-represented because of their constituency wins) and the Greens/SSP add to their actual figures while the SNP are the same.
What is interesting to note is the comparison between vote share and seat share – and the difference that AMS makes when the national vote share is the deciding factor (rather than regions). Â In both 1999 and 2003, Labour’s share of seats is still much higher than its share of the vote – this is because each of their seats was won through FPTP and not AMS. Â In 2003, the SNP’s seat share is down on their vote share – but that’s because there were not enough regional seats to make up for their poor showing on the constituencies. Â And the Lib Dems are constantly over-represented due to their winning more FPTP seats than their vote share would allow. Â But look at the rest of the vote shares compared to share of seats (the 1999 and 2003 figures in the table directly above, 2007 figures in the one above that). Â They are almost exactly correlated.
My point is simply this: Â If we are considering a “small step” towards making the system more proportional, let’s forget about AV and simply make the AMS element of the Holyrood system a national – and not regional – list. Â Sure this would make governing coalitions more difficult (no Lab-LD coalition makes 65 in 2003, for example) and fragments the party system further, but it IS more proportional. Â If that is our priority, then surely it’s something we should be considering.
#1 by James on March 7, 2011 - 7:42 am
Great work. If minority government is increasingly likely to become the norm, with this approach it would be almost inevitable.
1999 is the exception, given Labour’s extraordinarily strong position there. In either of the other two hypotheticals can you see even one workable two-party coalition at any point? In 2003 would Robin or Tommy have been invited to join the coalition?
Part of the problem is the Tories. Despite being the SNP’s closest allies during the second half of this term (arguably throughout), they remain toxic for other parties to work with formally.
In short, they play the same role in Scottish politics that Die Linke do in Germany – coalition complicators – only it’s even more awkward given they’re the clear third party here.
#2 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 8:45 am
Minority government, since it has proved work-able, looks like being the model that SNP and Labour – should they remain the largest parties in the future – will be keen to follow. However, that depends on the make-up of the Parliament, and whether they are amenable to the government. If so, it’d work – but in the 2007 national-list scenario, could you see enough of the opposition supporting an SNP or Labour budget? Not sure.
#3 by Stuart on March 7, 2011 - 7:59 am
Very interesting. But I’d still rather have Single Transferable Vote.
#4 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 8:21 am
I don’t have enough information to do a direct comparison (given I’d need to exit polls asking people what their preferences would be in an STV system, and even then, that’d be a poll and not a real result) but I can’t imagine the proportionality of STV would be THAT much better than this.
Sure, we could improve AMS in a second way – by making the composition 50% constituency and 50% regional MSPs – and then the numbers would almost be directly proportional. But as it is, the numbers, if we used national lists, are highly proportional. In what way would STV be better? It’d be less seats over smaller areas, thereby reducing the proportionality, no?
#5 by James on March 7, 2011 - 8:30 am
But Malc, there are so many other objectives with an electoral system. 56 MSPs with no local constituency, however defined, loses one of them. And being left with an FPTP vote in a PR system is also very problematic. Finally, preferential voting is much more nuanced. My first preference will always be Green, but my lower preferences are a full vote.
#6 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 8:43 am
I’m not saying it is perfect – and we could still draw the list MSPs from regional lists (so 7 from each of the current 8 ) and make them responsible for regions, though make the calculation based on national vote share).
But your point does answer my question – proportionality isn’t the end of the matter for you. You’d want preferential voting as well. If you had to choose either one or the other, it’d be…? I assume proportionality?
Also, I’m not sure how FPTP in a PR system is that problematic IF its effects are mitigated by a PR element.
This is me playing devil’s advocate of course, because I spent ages working this out and its now being trashed by the STV-mafia! But that means I have to defend a system I wasn’t that keen on anyway…
#7 by Daniel J on March 7, 2011 - 10:48 am
I agree with the idea. However, what do you do about the lack of grounding for these Regional MSPs?
As it is some are little more than subsidised campaign machines who don’t do much more than mouth off!
Obviously it’s not insurmountable but I feel like we would have to stop letting them establish offices where they like and set up some method of distributing them according to the vote in each region to make sure that the peoples elected representatives are evenly accessible.
Sadly, I can’t see anyone implementing this can you? Do you think Labour or the SNP want to agree to effectively cut the number of seats they have?
#8 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 11:30 am
The beauty of the system is that it is more vote-dependent than currently, so if the parties did well, they would actually INCREASE their representation to make sure it was in line with the vote share they received. Its incentive-based I suppose.
But yes, Labour would lose out, so they’d be unlikely to want to change it. Ironically, the one party who benefited the most from PR in Scotland after their FPTP wipeout in 1997 were the Tories – and they were OPPOSED to the system! They’d benefit (to the tune of a a couple more seats) were the change to be implemented – and given they are the government, they’d be in a position to change it. But I agree – its unlikely. But then, most debates about electoral reform are academic – this is in the same category.
#9 by Stuart Dickson on March 7, 2011 - 8:49 am
POLL ALERT
TNS-BMRB/Herald – Scottish Parliament voting intention
(+/- change from TNS-BMRB/Herald January 2011)
Constituency vote (FPTP)
Lab 44% (-5)
SNP 29% (-4)
Con 12% (+3)
LD 11% (+4)
Regional vote (AMS)
Lab 39% (-8)
SNP 33% (n/c)
Con 11% (+2)
LD 10% (+3)
Grn 6% (+3)
oth 5% (+3)
From The Herald:
“This could make for a new Parliament in May comprising Labour with 13 more seats on 59, the SNP down eight to 39, the Tories and LibDems down five and four respectively to both share 12, the Greens up from two to six and with one independent.
Despite likely Green support for a coalition, Labour leader Iain Gray may still opt to attempt minority government.
… TNS-BMRB have changed their methodology this month and instead of responses recorded by the interviewer, a computer was handed to respondents to input answers themselves, making it closer to the secrecy of a ballot. It is not known whether this will have influenced results.â€
#10 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 9:44 am
I still don’t buy the “Labour will get 59 seats” chat. Even in 1999, when everyone still voted Labour in the extended Blair honeymoon period, they only got 56. And what have the Lib Dems done in the last month to merit a collective 7 point bump?
The polls are all over the place at the moment, which suggests folk remain undecided and/ or are still focused on Westminster. I wouldn’t put that much stock in them – but I seem to be the only one preaching this!
#11 by Indy on March 7, 2011 - 10:39 am
Everyone actually out campaigning knows that. It is extremely fluid. This may be one of the very rare cases when the outcome of an election is actually decided during the short campaign!
#12 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 11:46 am
Maybe – or maybe people will end up going with what they thought before, and we end up spending x amount of money in a campaign which changes very little, and we have a parliament which is practically the same as it is at the moment. I wonder what odds we’d get on “no change” from 2007? Its what we got for Westminster…
#13 by Indy on March 7, 2011 - 12:07 pm
It’s what we got in Scotland and there was a clear reason for it – a nation essentially voting tactically to “keep the Tories out”.
There is no such dynamic in Scotland for this election.
#14 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 12:11 pm
That’s true. But is there, perhaps, a sense that what we have at the moment at Holyrood is fine, we’re getting on fine… let’s just have the same again? I don’t know – perhaps not.
#15 by Richard Thomson on March 7, 2011 - 12:41 pm
Party members having to rank upwards of 40 candidates for a nation-wide list? It would certainly be good for sales of paracetamol!
I’m a fan of open lists. However, doing it on a national rather than regional basis would probably result in a ballot paper the size of the average bathtowel.
#16 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 12:54 pm
If this is the biggest problem with the idea… I’m sure we could find some way around it! Get conference to decide or group them regionally, then draw lots or something…
Also, the most seats won by any one party under AMS by this method was the 29 the SNP won in 1999, and that was to compensate for Labour’s dominance of the constituencies. By 2007, the most was also the SNP, but it was only 21.
Yes there are difficulties – but insurmountable ones!
#17 by Richard Thomson on March 7, 2011 - 1:13 pm
You still have to select more than will be elected regardless of whether you use OMOV or go back to some other method, be that a ‘selectorate’ made up of conference delegates or a good old fashioned stitch-up by party high-heidyins.
It’s hard to get any system to deliver a perfectly proportional outcome. I still like the idea of being able to rank my regional candidates on an open list – that way, I could vote for a number of worthy candidates across parties, or alternatively, subvert the preferred rankings of my own party.
Not that I’d ever do such a thing as a good SNP loyalist, of course. I’m just saying…
#18 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 1:20 pm
Of course you’d need to rank more than will be elected – but your “upwards of 40” was a bit extreme. But I take the point that parties may have more than 40 candidates going forward for list rankings…
Open lists are inherently more democratic. So I guess we could theoretically do that – have an candidate election within the list element yeah? Maybe – but again, the ballot papers would be massive!
Lets just have a military coup eh? That solves all the practical problems of democracy!
#19 by Richard Thomson on March 7, 2011 - 1:23 pm
As long as I can get a uniform with lots of shiny buttons…
#20 by Malc on March 7, 2011 - 1:25 pm
*for the sake of clarity, my last comment was made sarcastically. Before folk start writing “The boys want a Better Nation with a military coup” or something.
#21 by Danny1995 on March 7, 2011 - 5:11 pm
Personally I say it’s not broken so don’t fix it, although if Scotland displays a preference for AV in May I agree we should use Alternative vote AMS in the future.
#22 by Baron Sarwar on March 7, 2011 - 10:44 pm
I remember this idea being floated in the early days of devolution by some off-message Labour MPs (Jimmy Hood & Iain Davidson?). Their added ingenious wheeze was to have the Co-Op Party stand in the list as a legally separate replacement for Labour, with an ensuing Labour/Co-Op coalition as a happily co-incidental result.
#23 by Daniel J on March 8, 2011 - 9:56 am
I also wondered about that…
#24 by Jeff on March 8, 2011 - 10:04 am
I’m still amazed that something along the lines of a Labour/CO-op d’hondt wheeze hasn’t taken place yet. The SCCUP tried it too in 2003 I believe.
#25 by Doug Daniel on March 8, 2011 - 9:00 am
You say there would have been one extremist elected in 2007, but personally I’d argue there would be two or three – I still can’t believe the Scottish Christian Party’s homophobic party political broadcast was even allowed to air in 2007! I was gobsmacked when I saw it.
I think having the AMS element split into regions is fair enough. This is maybe along the lines of what other folk have suggested, but how about taking the nationwide totals and allocating MSPs according to which regions voted for them the most? So if a party had enough votes nationwide to elect an MSP, that MSP would go to the area where they received the biggest number of votes. So in 2007, for example, if the Greens would have gotten five MSPs, then they would have been allocated to the five regions with the strongest Green vote. Likewise, the region with the weakest Labour list vote would receive the lowest number of Labour list MSPs.
I have no idea if that would be practical, as I’m just making it up as I type. I also don’t know if it would even make a difference to the current MSP numbers.
Maybe STV is the way to go. That would allow people to rank Richard Baker as the worst candidate on the list, aye? Anything that sees an end to his Holyrood career would be fine by me.
#26 by James on March 8, 2011 - 9:32 am
The trouble with that approach is it would mean Glaswegian voters would have an entirely Labour set of list MSPs, plus (unless Nicola represents them) a Labour constituency MSP. Who would they go to if they wanted an MSP to represent non-Labour views?
#27 by Doug Daniel on March 8, 2011 - 11:23 am
I’d be tempted to say “you get what you vote for”, but I suppose a Glaswegian non-Labour voter can’t help it if everyone else still votes Labour even though they themselves didn’t. However, it would still be a top-up system, only the top-ups would be based on your national vote, rather than regional vote. So, in 2007, Labour received 29.2% of the list vote, which works out at 37 MSPs in the parliament (126 x 0.292 = 36.792). They already had 37 constituency MSPs, so they wouldn’t have gotten ANY list MSPs, whereas under the current allocation system, they had 9 MSPs elected. Straight away, it looks like perhaps using the national vote to decide the number of list MSPs each party gets might be fairer than currently.
Of course, as Malc has already shown, the problem with trying to directly allocate MSPs based on national vote is that extremist parties get a look in. I’m quite satisfied having a parliament that doesn’t include homophobic religious nutters and racist idiots. Why should any region have to put up with the indignity of looking like “the region that hates blacks” or “the region that hates gays”?
Yeah, my idea is rubbish, as is trying to allocate MSPs based on national vote, unless you also put in a rule stipulating that parties have to get above a certain threshold in each region before they can have MSPs allocated to them. But then it would probably just turn out the same as the numbers we get from d’Hondt, so it’s probably a massive waste of time. No, sack this idea.
Why do I get the feeling that far too many politicians (particularly Iain Gray and those in the Westminster coalition) make up their policies the way I just did?
#28 by Malc on March 8, 2011 - 12:32 pm
Wouldn’t they then be “Labour” MSPs and “Co-Op” MSPs (ie – they couldn’t stand for both)? I get what you are saying though – the views would likely be the same… But in my view, this wouldn’t be entirely wrong – certainly not with the way the system is drawn up anyway.
#29 by Malc on March 8, 2011 - 12:33 pm
I did wonder if anyone might make that point. I didn’t want to couple religious “fundamentalism” with “political extremism”… but yes – I totally agree.
Also, on Richard Baker. If Labour win… he’s likely Justice Secretary. Scary.
#30 by Indy on March 8, 2011 - 10:06 am
Can I throw in a suggestion that we just change to STV? Works well enough for the council, why not for the Parliament as well? And then at least we would have two types of elections using the same system lol.
#31 by Malc on March 8, 2011 - 12:37 pm
You can throw in that suggestion – but not to me. I don’t decide what system we have! You’d be agreeing with James then (first time for everything I suppose!) that there’s more to the electoral system than proportionality?
I’ve shown (I think) from these numbers that AMS on a national level would correlate almost exactly votes with seats – and even more so if we had a 50-50 split between constituency MSPs and list MSPs. But if you’d rather have preferential voting then STV is obviously the better candidate…
#32 by Danny1995 on March 8, 2011 - 4:08 pm
One thing I am against is using the fact any systems excludes extremists as a supporting argument. The views of the BNP and even moreso the views of the Christians horrify me, but if they have the support to deserve a seat then they have as much of a mandate to be there as anyone.
#33 by Indy on March 8, 2011 - 5:43 pm
The issue isn’t whether their views are horrifying but whether they break the law. In the case of both the BNP and the Scottish Christian Party they have taken it pretty close to the line.
#34 by theshooglypeg on March 8, 2011 - 6:16 pm
I can see the advantage of a national list producing seat distribution that’s closer to actual votes, but do you think it would create different problems? There’s already tension between list and constituency MSPs because the latter sometimes think the former aren’t “proper” MSPs, since they don’t have their own distinctive constituency. If an MSP was elected on a national list, who would they actually represent? Would they have to take up casework on behalf of anyone who approached them, and would this be practical?
I agree with you on thresholds though, I think they’re undemocratic, and I’m also not convinced that they hamper government efficiency. Small parties can be more flexible and are less likely to focus on opposing government for the sake of it, since they’re not trying to form the next government. Besides, the way to prevent extremist groups from getting elected isn’t to rig the system against them: it’s to have a better argument than they do, and make sure people hear it.
#35 by Malc on March 8, 2011 - 7:12 pm
I agree on mostly all of that. Except some of it, that I don’t. I’ll explain.
The problem of “national list MSPs”. Well – its how Germany does it (though they don’t have the same constituency link as us) but I think we could introduce an element of regional lists into it. For example, the parties get their quota of list MSPs then get them to nominate representatives for each of the 8 regions. Or, keep the 8 regions and the 1st MSP is allocated to Central Scotland, the 2nd list MSP to Glasgow, the 3rd to Highlands & Islands etc…
I’m against thresholds because they are undemocratic, and I don’t think we should specifically have things there to stop extremists getting elected. As soon as you start doing that, you’ve already lost the argument.
Where I disagree with you though is the impact of small parties. Sure they can be flexible… but they are more likely to be ideologically driven (witness Greens, socialists… but also BNP & religious parties) whose principles don’t tend to get bent for anything. That makes it difficult to work with one of them… never mind trying to hold together a coalition with compromises etc…