There are two groups, not entirely mutually exclusive, who are desperately trying to ensure that the UK clings on to two relics of a bygone age – the First Past the Post Westminster voting system and the House of Lords. When defended in isolation, the arguments can sound persuasive but when defended together, it becomes increasingly clear that each entity could quite easily cancel each other out and the country wouldn’t miss them. Quite the contrary.
James talked in his last post of the four different groups competing in the AV referendum but I would like to suggest a fifth – those who would vote against First Past the Post in order to assist in doing away with the House of Lords.
The most common defence of the House of Lords is that there is nothing cheaper to take its place. Those who claim this are wrong. Having nothing in its place is considerably cheaper, 100% cheaper in fact.
After all, why do we need a House of Lords? Just because it dates back to the 1300s and we’ve gotten used to it, it doesn’t mean we still can’t just pull the plug on the arrangement despite its supposed merits:
The House of Lords as an Upper Chamber has the primary purpose of scrutinising Legislation proposed by the Lower House through the form of debate and through proposing amendments to legislation. Governments in recent years have used the Upper House as a variant of the Select Committee process to finalise legislation before presentation for Royal Assent.
The House of Commons already scrutinises legislation and I daresay that Select Committees do a more effective job of being a, well, Select Committee. For those concerned about this halving of our political Houses, don’t worry, there is already a term for this state of having one parliamentary chamber – the delightful Unicameralism. Were the UK to drop the House of Lords then it would be joining such appealing company as Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand, Finland, Singapore and Norway (ok, and China, Iraq and Iran. What’s your point?). Devolved Scotland, if you want to see it that way, is also already practising Unicameralism.
The next argument advanced by the grey and the crusty who wish to save the Lords may then be that a Government with an unassailable majority should not wield such power, which leads me on to the next part of this two-step solution – introducing proper PR.
Were we to have proper PR in the UK then we wouldn’t need unelected Lords to check the power of our Governments as the existence of eight or nine political parties, all negotiating and compromising with each other with an engaged public watching on, would ensure that controls were inherent in the system to ensure legislation was always sufficiently refined.
Obviously we don’t have the option of full PR on our badly limited voting slip on May 5th but there is surely little doubt that voting Yes to AV is a more positive statement that one wants a more proportional voting system than voting No or abstaining.
There is even an incentive for the many proponents of independence to involve themselves in this idea of pushing for Unicameralism supported by PR through voting for AV. A stronger Yes vote north of the border on May 5th would show that Scotland is more open to the idea of a proportional system than our southern neighbours, just one more example of a more ‘leftie’ philosophy that makes us distinct within the United Kingdom. A ‘Yes’ majority in Scotland and a ‘No’ majority in the rest of the UK would be enough on its own to make many Scots wonder why we don’t just take such decisions for ourselves when Scottish majority opinion is at odds with UK majority opinion, a feeling that will surely already be incubating along after the General Election result.
We don’t really know who our peers are and we don’t know what they do but their position is protected by an out of date First Past the Post system that is patently unfair and undemocratic. MPs and Lords alike talk a good game about House of Lords reform but the reality is that, at most, only 7 people out of the 1,391 Members of both Houses are arguing for scrapping that second Chamber – SNP and Green MPs.
To become Unicameralists we would need to work around a unilateral Cameron, a duplicitous Clegg and wait out a long election-free 4.5 years that the current coalition awarded itself. Voting Yes to AV is the best way to consign historic practices to history.
#1 by oldchap on December 14, 2010 - 9:44 am
An interesting topic and you make some good points which I largely agree with; one that I first started chewing over when I was in the debating society at RGU. We had a guest speaker debate with a number of MSPs present and I think it was Brian Adam who said how he’d come around to the idea of a unicameral parliament after seeing the committee system work so well at Holyrood.
You have missed out a couple of the other arguments for a bicameral parliament, which are mutually exclusive as they depend on the means of populating the upper chamber. The first one is that the second chamber allows for the appointment of experts into the legislature (unfortunately here it also allows for the appointment of non-experts and retired party chums too). The committees do allow for expert input as-is but there is somethings to be said for putting such people on the same footing as the elected members. It’s difficult to know how to get the balance right in a democratic setting.
The other argument is to do with representation. In the US, the senate allows for equal representation of states and the House allows for equal representation of populations. We could have that here to balance out the huge weight that English MPs have over the other British nations. I’m less drawn by this argument as I favour independence but if we have to continue with the union this might help make it more balanced.
#2 by Jeff on December 14, 2010 - 10:34 pm
Thanks Oldchap,
The two arguments in favour of bicameralism that you mention don’t hold much water with me I’m afraid.
I can’t see how we need a Second Chamber just to make sure that we get some experts into the political process. Either they can be called to provide a contribution or they can stand for the House of Commons? If the Second Chamber is unelected then it is dangerously undemocratic and if it is elected then it just becomes a pale imitation of the other chamber. We can put experts on the same footing as elected members, elect them into their posts. It certainly beats the many party faithful with little outside experience that hold some of the roles. (Vince Cable and David Laws have clout because they’ve been there and done it, Danny Alexander, for example, is a lightweight by comparison)
I don’t fully follow your second point. We would be equally represented with one chamber. Of course England should have more MPs, there are 10 times more English people than Scottish… Maybe I’m missing something with that one though.
#3 by oldchap on December 15, 2010 - 9:48 am
Agreed; it’s just that the wider population aren’t always good at electing candidates for their experience over their party colour! Of course there’s never going to be an ideal way to fill a legislature and elections are the least-bad option. (“Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.” -George Bernard Shaw) I personally tend to waver between the two sides of this argument; usually the idea of bringing experts before committees wins.
On the second point; it’s about reflecting the notion that it’s an equal union of two or more countries, not one big one swallowing up its little neighbours. In the US example; in the senate every state gets 2 senators, in the house states get different numbers dependent on population. This way the little states don’t get trodden on by the likes of California and in theory the houses have to find a compromise to the benefit of both big and small states. I’m sure someone else could explain it better!
There is an argument for saying that as a smaller member of the union we shouldn’t have much say, but as you can tell I don’t agree with that.
#4 by Jeff on December 15, 2010 - 11:12 am
Yes, agree with your first point for sure. The Lord Sugars etc would be happy to contribute for little remuneration if appointed but I don’t see them stumping out knocking on doors at election time. And let’s not kid ourselves that experts/business leaders are immune from party politics. Lord Sugar is dyed in the wool Labour.
I’m afraid we’ll just have to disagree about your philosophy that the UK is an equal union of two (or more) countries. Scotland isn’t a country in my book, it’s a nation, and that means that, politically speaking, we are 5million out of 60million and that’s as much weight as we get to punch. We shouldn’t get special treatment above a region of England that has the same number of people. You make a strong argument, and dilute my point considerably, with the USA situation though.
#5 by Scott on December 14, 2010 - 10:55 am
Bicameralism is not of itself a bad thing. Different forms of representation in different chambers of Parliament – ensuring that no one party become over powerful is not a bad thing – but that is an argument for reform of the second chamber.
Unicameralism may appear an attractive idea in principle but after watching it in operation at Holyrood I would not be in favour. As well as holding governments to account a legislature should ensure that legislation is properly scrutinised. The one thing that the Lords does permit (and a bicameral parliament would encourage) is full scrutiny. Legislation is tested.
Anyone that has watched the operation of the committee system at Holyrood (where there seems an active dislike of subject experts being involved on appropriate committees for fear that their views may be coloured by knowledge, understanding and experience) and where committees seem more politicised than at Westminster (witness the polarised votes and split reports in recent years) will question whether the committee structure will necessarily operate effectively in a unicameral system.
And in relation to legislation where evidence is taken on the bill at stage 1 (but not at later stages of the parliamentary process – when amendments could have transformed legislation); when there is no line by line scrutiny at Stage 2 but instead mere consideration of amendments with truncated debates (and those amendments often focus on tangential issues rather than looking at the central policy of the legislation and assessing that and trying to make sure that the wording works in implementing it); and where Stage 3 is a farce with rushed consideration of amendments (30 second limits in debates explaining how amendments work as has happened often at Holyrood is a nonsense), no possibility for subsequent amendment (if there’s a screw up at Stage 3 that’s it – including where the presiding officer gets it wrong on an issue as happened in the Crofting Bill), and then self- congratulatory speeches in the final debate. If that is the model of unicameralism that we want to work towards we will get the Parliament and the legislation we deserve: inept.
I would like to see the Lords reformed (possibly with 10 year staggered elections with room for appointees from bodies such as the Royal Societies; and room for expert scientists, thinkers &c) and would retain a second chamber unless a huge transformation to the way the Commons (and Holyrood) operate is proposed.
#6 by Jeff on December 14, 2010 - 10:44 pm
Hi Scott, fine comment. Thanks for dispensing some of that awesome legal knowledge of yours.
I agree that a second chamber to ensure that no one party becomes too powerful is a good thing in the Democrat/Republican and Labour/Tory worlds but the point of my post was to drive the twin relationship of true PR/unicameralism and how many parties can mitigate such risks. It’s no coincidence that I had the initial thought in Sweden where there is currently a 4 party alliance ‘unilaterally’ ruling the country (with less than 50% of the vote) amidst little concern that they hold too much unchecked power. (I won’t go into how much some Swedes laugh at our silly House of Lords though, another driving point behind this post!)
I am somewhat persuaded by the ‘scrutiny’ argument but that still smacks a little of one chamber not being up to the job it was put there to do. Holyrood is a bad example as a truly national Parliament would have more MSPs than the 129 it currently has (Sweden’s 9m population has 349). I, again, take your perfectly fair points about the shabby stages that some Bills can experience but, idealist that I am, I would rather the existing process was firmed up rather than we just double up on chambers, theoretically unnecessarily.
I’m not against the idea of appointees from Royal Societies and expert scientists etc but power has to come from the people so who specifically appoints these people will always be a risk and a problem. I don’t really see any way to have a second chamber that isn’t rotten through being unelected or just a carbon copy of the House of Commons, with similar party splits, if it is directly elected.
Despite your clearly well-informed comment, I still think that on balance it should be scrapped.
#7 by David Petrie on December 14, 2010 - 11:54 am
Whilst we’re trying to reach consensus, and ahead of any vote, can we remove the Church of England Bishops?
There’s surely not a mind in the land that’d be able, let alone seek to, justify their position?
#8 by Jeff on December 14, 2010 - 10:45 pm
Didn’t realise they were in the House of Lords. Seems almost cute in its arcaneness. But yes, also unjustifiable.
#9 by BM on December 15, 2010 - 2:23 pm
I can certainly seek to justify their position, but cannot and would not seek to justify their exclusive position. If faith communities aren’t represented in some manner, then this would necessitate our political parties taking religious tones and hues, which, I for one, would dislike more than having few Lord Bishops in the upper house.
I think the leading members of all faiths and none should be included in any body which will deliberate on matters which will have an ethical component, or indeed, consequences stretching beyond a four/five year parliamentary term.
#10 by James on December 14, 2010 - 12:02 pm
I’m with Scott, I think a proper reviewing chamber elected differently is useful, and that an independent Holyrood would either need one or need many more MSPs to allow more detailed scrutiny. In fact, although it’s an unpopular argument to make, I think we do already. Colleagues here are unicameralist, though (splits in the Greens! oh no!), and I do understand their efficiency arguments.
Also, Jeff, I can’t believe you wrote a post about unicameralism and didn’t mention Nebraska, America’s only unicameralist state legislature .
#11 by Jeff on December 14, 2010 - 10:49 pm
The questions come back to how that reviewing chambers is elected and why it is even necessary if the many parties of a PR-elected first chamber are doing their jobs properly. I’m not against the first chamber having more MSPs to meet the needs of its stated role but the people who should review legislation and act accordingly are the public (at election time which should be less than every five years)
Also, I only learned the word (and my new favourite!) unicameralism yesterday so Nebraska was way off my radar. (And still is, near Wyoming? SOuth of Mississippi? No idea)
#12 by Exiled Nat on December 14, 2010 - 3:18 pm
What use is an upper house that can no longer prevent legislation thanks to despot Blair?
#13 by Malc on December 15, 2010 - 9:50 am
Bicameralism is not a prerequisite for consensus-type politics, but it does help (according to Arend Lijphart anyway) because the two (differently constituted, and that’s key) chambers have to work together to pass things.
For example, see the federal system in Germany – one chamber, the Bundestag, is elected by AMS (like Scotland, though 50:50 between constituency and top-up, making it more balanced) to represent the people at a national level and the second, the Bundesrat, is delegated (not elected) by the 16 Lander to represent them at national level.
This is a bad example of bicameralism, since they don’t see it as such, but the point holds that both Bundestag and Bundesrat have to work together. It is also worth pointing out that this is an example of how a “second” chamber can work efficiently without being elected – though the parties are represented based upon who controls the Lander. Might this model be something which would help change your mind?
#14 by Jeff on December 15, 2010 - 11:15 am
Thanks Malc, and that does sound a more plausible bi-c system but it’s a far cry from the House of Lords.
I’m not up on my German constitutional politics but it sounds a bit like they have a system where elected councils send a representative to push their own local agenda. I could certainly get onboard with that and it ticks sufficiently the democratic box.
#15 by Malc on December 15, 2010 - 11:43 am
More “Scottish Parliament/ Welsh Assembly” than “local councils” but aye – you get the idea. The problem with the UK and federalism is that if we used a similar system then the English component in the upper chamber would be so large that the other parts would have no influence (eg – see make up of House of Commons: 534 English MPs out of 650).
Translate this into a second chamber with regional influence along the same lines (with 50 members) you’d have:
1 NI upper-chamber MP,
3 Welsh,
5 Scots
and 41 English.
Would that work any better than House of Lords? I doubt it…
#16 by Jeff on December 15, 2010 - 11:57 am
Why is a vast majority of people being English in a second chamber a bad thing? I don’t get it.
Why can’t Scottish ‘Lords’ (for want of a better term) agree with Cornwall or Devon or Yorkshire or Kent Lords on whatever non-devolved issues Britain faces, particularly if there is proper PR?
This argument that Scotland is hard done by because we are only represented by 5m/60m (~8%) of MPs/Lords is an odd one for me though I can appreciate that those of an independence bent are frustrated by it.
#17 by Malc on December 15, 2010 - 2:09 pm
Its not the fact that they are English that is the issue. You said it yourself in your previous comment regarding Germany:
“it sounds a bit like they have a system where elected councils send a representative to push their own local agenda. ”
If that were the case, the second chamber would be focused on their “local interest” – in this case, being English issues, at the expense of all others. It would, of course, depend on the system – but I’m just pointing out the flaws in my own logic!
#18 by Jeff on December 15, 2010 - 5:03 pm
I guess I don’t see what English representatives’ shared agenda would be, save perhaps for wanting a St George’s Day…
#19 by Malc on December 15, 2010 - 6:07 pm
Ah – I didn’t explain that well. The 16 Lander have to vote as a block – whatever their party differences – with votes distributed by population (larger ones get 6 votes, smaller ones 4). If that were the case here, “English” representatives would always have a majority – 42 of 50 in my hypothetical example. That’s why the model perhaps wouldn’t work…
#20 by Paul on December 16, 2010 - 4:16 pm
I’m following this with interest. Would it be different if were split along the lines of regions rather than country. I would think a Northern England region would be much closer issue wise to Scotland than it was to London (and Yorkshire is a similar population size to Scotland)?
#21 by Malc on December 16, 2010 - 4:21 pm
Perhaps. The Lib Dems are in favour of a federal UK, but I don’t think they have detailed their plans to this extent. Several questions though.
What would a UK-level “regionalised” England mean for English identity?
Would you divide on population size or historic region/ area?
How would this distinguish from House of Commons on people representing their own area only?
Of course, we’re idly speculating on something that isn’t ever likely to happen… but then, we talk about independence all the time… (should I run off an hide now?!).