I’m perhaps not in the best position to discuss and dispute the criticism levelled in Stephen Fry’s direction over the weekend as a result of his article suggesting that women don’t enjoy sex. After all, the sum total of my bedfellows makes for a rather lacklustre sample size and one that contains significant gender bias.
That said, I did find the criticism to be just the latest frustrating outpouring from an increasingly intolerant left-wing mob, ironically timed during Jon Stewart’s calls for a bit of moderation to break out. I personally have no strong views on the subject Fry opted to discuss other than to say that everyone is different and generalisations rarely stack up on any issue, including to what extent women (or men) enjoy sex.
A possibly interesting addendum to this wider debate, and one that can confound many a devout Christian who believes sex should be a God-blessed, clumsy, baby-making affair, is that the clitoris has no functional biological value other than to make sex enjoyable. It’s a bit like bacon which has zero nutritional value and merely exists as it tastes good, though it is at that juncture where the similarity with female genitalia may well end….
Anyway, cripes, let’s move on.
There is a thin line between principled debate, passionately argued and an obtuse, oafishness that gives no quarter to those stepping beyond the lines drawn up by only one side of what should constitute ‘debate’ but is really just a public flogging. I think the latter applies here and has applied intermittently on various occasions throughout the year, with Twitter largely to blame.
One such example emanated from the merest whiff of an unpaid tax liability story regarding Vodafone, resulting in store blockades and cancelled mobile contracts. The source of such apparent disproportionate action was a rather dubious anonymously sourced article in Private Eye. If Iain Hyslop is to be the litmus test of right and wrong then we’re all in trouble. The pint-sized funnyman (a description I’m sure he treasures) is no stranger to public action, but that’s typically of the legal variety after getting his facts wrong rather than standard protests.
And there is a further point to make. Stephen Fry did not wilfully invite this Intolerant Left storm upon himself, in the way perhaps that Jan Moir, David Starkey, Kelvin Mackenzie and Melanie Phillips regularly, knowingly, smirkingly do. Honestly held views, as opposed to professional baiting, should, but often sadly don’t, command more respect.
There will be people today, otherwise perfectly smart, rational people, who will hold the delightfully lovable Stephen Fry in a significantly lower regard than they did last week, all for next to nothing.
An oft-quoted line from left-wing worthies is “I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death you’re right to say it”. Such logic does appear to be on the wane or, at least, should now come with the addendum of “but we will unleash the mob forces of social media upon you and cast you adrift if you speak out of turn”.
Stephen Fry is a good egg and in my eyes will always come first before a chicken left-wing that, in short, needs to lighten up (through perhaps, while we’re on the topic, a good….. no, i’ll leave it there)
#1 by Shuna on November 1, 2010 - 12:51 pm
Quote: ‘A possibly interesting addendum to this wider debate, and one that can confound many a devout Christian who believes sex should be a God-blessed, clumsy, baby-making affair, is that the clitoris has no functional biological value other than to make sex enjoyable. It’s a bit like bacon which has zero nutritional value and merely exists as it tastes good, though it is at that juncture where the similarity with female genitalia may well end….’
As a devout female Christian I have to appeal to you not to apply your statement to all devout Christians. We do not all have the same views on the purpose of sex. Some of us actually enjoy it! 😉 There is a danger that we clump ALL Christians in the same box as all thinking the same way. Woud we dare do so with all politicians??? I do not think so.
That said – Stephen Fry is a decent bloke – known for outspoken outbursts that shock. So as a female – whilst I may not agree with him, I am not offended by his statement. I take the whole person not just the odd quote – a bit like the way I approach the Bible – context is everything!
#2 by Jeff on November 1, 2010 - 1:08 pm
Thanks Shuna, I did say “many a” in my defence so I wasn’t lumping anyone in together. I can understand your concern that many may see ‘Christians’ as a homogenous block but I certainly don’t see things that way so I hope I didn’t give that impression.
Incidentally, I did try to push this post into a more religious angle but it didn’t really work and it was only to squeeze in the quote: “God is at home, it is we who have gone out for a walk” but I’ve managed it now so I’m satisfied…
PS I thought my analogies were out there but comparing Stephen Fry to the Bible….? Nice work!
#3 by Shuna on November 1, 2010 - 1:19 pm
no worries Jeff – glad to give you an opportunity to get the quote in – a rather good one, i have to add!
Also glad you like the analogy – as my New Testament lecturers kept telling us – context, context, context!
#4 by Phil Ruse on November 1, 2010 - 1:54 pm
Maybe I should have read the thing more carefully but a lot of it appeared tongue-in-cheek to me or maybe taking the p*ss in an ever so gentle way. Possibly because gentle is an attribute I always associate with the man himself.
#5 by Jeff on November 1, 2010 - 2:11 pm
Yes, I would agree with you there Phil, or I would at the very least give Stephen the benefit of any doubt.
He has certainly said that his quotes are being taken out of context and he was being humorous.
#6 by Philip Painter on November 1, 2010 - 2:33 pm
In mild defence of the criticism may I say that it was because “ginger” [i.e. red haired”] is an intrinsic, non-chosen attribute such as race, skin colour, height etc. If Harriet had said “right-wing rodent” or “vile rodent” this would have been much better.
Also criticism does not imply intolerance, merely disagreement.
I also think the episode is pretty trivial compared to much of our current political and economic woes.
#7 by Jeff on November 1, 2010 - 2:44 pm
Thanks Philip, though I have to say I didn’t mention the ‘ginger rodent’ debacle and actually think the storm that was provoked was appropriate, particularly as Harman was skirting close to the law there, her own law no less!
I disagree with your general point that criticism doesn’t imply intolerance though. I found with the Stephen Fry incident in particular, from some of the comments I read at least, that it did. But that in itself is open to debate of course.
#8 by BenSix on November 1, 2010 - 5:37 pm
Well said on the Fry thing, Jeff. One problem with twitter is that everyone – including me! – is so darn keen to have their say on the hot topic – or, as twitter justly dubs it, trend – of the day. Thus, we get these soggy squibs of controversies. Famous person holds a vaguely ill-formed opinion? Whatever next…
#9 by Allan on November 1, 2010 - 7:23 pm
Good post, though I must correct you on Vodaphone.
The story isn’t so much that Vodaphone did not pay tax (the amount in question relates to the amount due from their purchase of the German engineering firm Mannesmann in 1999) but more that HMRC dropped the court case (which they had been contesting) within months of the Tories taking power.
http://www.bitterwallet.com/hmrc-do-deal-with-vodafone-to-help-with-tax-avoidance/34284
#10 by Indy on November 2, 2010 - 11:02 am
Actually I think suggesting that women only have sex with men because that ‘is a price they are willing to pay for a relationship’ is offensive. He may not have intended to cause offence but it was an offensive remark to make and he should just have said oops, I got a bit carried away there, didn’t really mean it, sorry.
#11 by Jeff on November 2, 2010 - 12:35 pm
That is, of course, a fair position to take Indy. I just wonder about that word “offensive”. I think people should be a bit more resilient and not so easily affected and outraged by the errant thoughts of one person who probably didn’t even mean any offence in the first place, or think that he was causing any.
People need to ‘man up’ to use an inappropriate phrase. Or ‘woman up’, in this instance of course. ‘Person up’? Doesn’t really work.
#12 by Caron on November 2, 2010 - 2:31 pm
How come I’m getting the blame for all this left wing rage and anger? I think even my harshest critics would say that I’m not prone to hysteria and bile. I was hardly portraying Stephen Fry as the anti Christ, merely pointing out that I thought his argument was flawed and ask whatever happened to live and let live? I also took the opportunity to point out that even if women did indulge and enjoy casual sex, society and the tabloid press would take them apart in a way they don’t do to men.
What surprises me is that Fry who of all people should know how Twitter can be, and who has at times stepped in to shore up sides in a Twitter debate, should be in any way surprised that his comments proved controversial.
I adore Stephen Fry but he got it wrong and just because he’s a lovely national treasure doesn’t mean that we all have to blithely agree with him. If you’re going to put yourself out there, you have to accept you’re going to ge criticism.
I’ve never said he shouldn’t have said what he said, or that he didn’t have the right to – just that I think he’s wrong.
#13 by Jeff on November 2, 2010 - 2:39 pm
There’s an irony that you’re talking about “hystreria and bile” when noone here has mentioned either Caron.
But fair enough about my only linking to your blog; it was more Twitter that I was railing against but didn’t want to trawl through each line. Your blog was much more handy in terms of linkage.
And “whatever happened to live and let live?” Yes, my point entirely.
#14 by Indy on November 2, 2010 - 2:42 pm
Yeah I agree with Caron. Why is it that people who say they don’t agree with someone – or indeed think someone is talking utter mince – get characterised as wanting to shut someone up? They don’t want to shut someone up. They are just saying they think the person is talking mince.
To turn your comments around, maybe people should be a bit more resilient and not so easily affected by criticism.
#15 by Caron on November 2, 2010 - 2:50 pm
Jeff, I was just amused that you were using me as the poster girl of the intolerant left. As a Liberal Democrat I have had more invective heaped upon me and my party by Labour over the last few months – you rarely see a tweet from them go by without them using the Con Dem Nation thing, or saying we’ve sold out on our principles or are evil or both.
Just as well I’m thick skinned:-).
By the way, what was really funny was on Saturday when Harman made her faux pas about Danny, how Labour tweeters were trying to make out like this was fine and only a legitimate bit of fun. If it had been one of my lot who’d said something so crass, I like to think I’d have called them out for it. And if it had been one of our’s, would we ever have heard the end of it from Labour?
It’s hardly the end of the world and certainly not the most important issue of the day, but it amused me, anyway.
#16 by Una on November 3, 2010 - 7:32 pm
I have to say it’s Stephen Fry who has to ‘man up’ on this occasion. He is the one who has run away in a huff because people have criticised his rather silly point of view.
#17 by Jeff on November 4, 2010 - 9:22 am
Hmm, not convinced.
Stephen feels his words were taken out of context and, quite unfairly (either way), was subjected to a very public, fierce, disproportionate haranguing.
I don’t see it as a toys out the pram issue.
#18 by Indy on November 4, 2010 - 9:51 am
I’m not saying that his words weren’t taken out of context. Nevertheless he did say that women only have sex with men because that ‘is a price they are willing to pay for a relationship’.
Any guy who said that could expect to take pelters for it.
#19 by Jeff on November 4, 2010 - 11:11 am
I’m not doing a very good impression of someone who doesn’t care here but I concede you’re probably right there Indy. If it was banter then I suppose you can’t act all serious when you successfully rile people up. I still think people shouldn’t get too riled but I guess that’s up to them.