In my younger, more radical days (hang on – at 26, can I really make the claim that I’m all grown up and “sensible” now? Jury still out…) I was much more vocal, and aggressively so, in my opposition to capital punishment. Cases like this one, though utterly horrific had me arguing in no uncertain terms that capital punishment was wrong, that no matter how bad the crime, state execution was simply not a valid means of punishing a criminal for their action.
Don’t get me wrong – I still don’t think it is right. Killing is wrong (though I can make a case for Margo’s End of Life Assistance Bill being okay, but that’s another debate). Whether it is a drug lord slaying a rival gang leader, a policeman shooting dead a potential terrorist or the state executing a prisoner guilty of what our American cousins would call first degree murder – killing is wrong. You don’t need a religious or theological position to agree with that – basic morality will do.
When I was in my early teens I vividly remember the Oklahoma City bombing, the subsequent trial of Timothy McVeigh and the morbid fascination I had with the American legal system which was inevitably and without any shadow of a doubt going to pass a death sentence on the perpetrator. I vaguely recall news reports in the week up to his execution stating the exact time that he was due to be killed. I remember that it was supposed to be held on 16th May (its my birthday – hence remembering precisely) but that it was delayed for a month (until 11 June – the day before my brother’s birthday!). Anyway, I took such an interest in the case that I knew exactly what time the execution would be – and watched news reports confirming his death. Even though I knew McVeigh had killed 168 people I did not believe that his death was justified, nor that the state had a right to end his life. The fact that he had been wrong in the first place didn’t matter – killing is wrong.
There are 4 broad arguments against the state being allowed to kill: morality (killing is wrong), lack of ability to be a deterrent (evidence suggests so), lack of certainty surrounding guilt of convicted and monetary factors (total costs of execution and appeals process exceed cost of life imprisonment without parole in the US). But for me, the latter three are secondary considerations to the first – that killing is wrong, whether state sanctioned or otherwise.
How many times have I used the phrase “killing is wrong” thus far? I count 6 (and a seventh if you count the question in the previous sentence). Do you get the feeling I’m trying to convince you of something… or myself? Because here’s a kick in the balls: I’m not convinced killing is always wrong.
Let me qualify that statement. I’ve always been more of a utilitarian than a consequentialist (and, indeed, hold J.S. Mill as one of my ideological standard-bearers) but I do have a Masters in Terrorism and International Relations, so here’s a flip side for you. If you could save 20 people from certain death (okay, I know death is certain – I mean a premature death via a terrorist attack) by killing one person you know is planning to attack, would that killing be wrong? If the state had known McVeigh was going to bomb Oklahoma City and shot him dead on the way – and in the process saving 168 lives – would that be justified? I think you could make a case for it (and I can hear the civil liberties types queueing up to whack me as I write this).
I’d still argue that killing is wrong – and you won’t get me to say otherwise – but I think you can justify this type of action. Look, I’m not saying its right. And I’m not saying we should give police new powers in this field, nor that security trumps civil liberties (despite what some might argue!) just that in some cases – perhaps when we can be almost sure that acting will avoid the widespread loss of life – that state sponsored killing could, perhaps, be justified. There, I’ve said it. Â But this is a very grey area – things are not black and white here.
Now, I suspect there will be some responses pointing out my objections to capital punishment – we’ll never be 100% sure, costs involved, deterrence and, of course, that killing is wrong – and say that I’m being inconsistent, nay, a hypocrite! I see your point. But I do think I can hold both positions consistently – that killing someone to avoid large-scale loss of life can be justified but that killing them after the due process of law has been followed is wrong. Here’s how. In the former case, the death of suspect/potential convict serves a purpose that is directly related to the physical well-being of society (that is, the avoidance of terrorist incident and/or multiple fatalities). The latter is simply vengeance – an eye for an eye, the state attempting to “even the score” with the criminal. This will not bring back those whom they have killed – but in the former case it stops them from being killed in the first place.
I know its not a perfect argument. And of course there are instances where action will prove ill-considered and wrong. And, inevitably, those concerned with the human rights of those who could not give a flying **** about the human rights of those they intend to kill will scream bloody murder. And yes, that is what it is. But I’m not sure that we can’t – sometimes – look beyond that.
I know that’s controversial, particularly in today’s polarised world. I know what I’m saying condones what is some cases (Israel particularly) would be described as “state-sponsored terrorism”. And I know – and I believe – that killing is wrong. I just think – sometimes – it can be justified.
#1 by Mr. Mxyzptlk on November 9, 2010 - 5:16 pm
The only problem(and its a big one) i have with the death penalty is guilt there have been to many miscarriages of justice to be certain in every case the right person was/will be killed by the state.
On the other hand a life long sentence starts of as a punishment but when they become elderly or in ill health they receive the best one to one care money can buy(unlike the rest of us)
perhaps a delayed state killing is appropriate you wait a number of years in case of any new evidence if none turns up.
you wait until the the convicted person begins to be in poor health and needs expensive medical care then you
have your judicial execution.
#2 by Una on November 9, 2010 - 7:16 pm
Not sure this is too controversial for anyone but a pacifist. You seem to be saying it’s ok sometimes for the state to kill to protect the lives of others. This is the same basic principle used to justify fighting wars, surely? So killing Nazi soldiers in the Second World War (a real threat to lives) is justifiable, while invading Iraq is not (madey-uppy threat). Presumably for terrorist threats killing can be argued as necessary when done in clear self-defence, or if there is no other way to stop the threat happening. State sponsored killing must always be scrutinised but it’s the practice, not the concept, that is deeply controversial I think.
#3 by Malc on November 9, 2010 - 9:54 pm
Yeah, I think that’s pretty much it. In cases where the security of its citizens are under threat, perhaps the killing of suspected terrorists is justifiable. For example, we’ve been hunting for Bin Laden for 9 years – does anyone seriously think we’re looking to apprehend him? I’d suggest that’s a little naive if we do.
While I agree with your categorisation of Iraq as madey-uppy, the logic that we have apparently almost agreed on justifies it as acceptable on the grounds of defending our citizens. I mean, whether the threat actually existed is debatable (though perhaps a moot point if we’re justifying the state killing people when it perceives a threat to its populace?)
#4 by cynicalHighlander on November 9, 2010 - 9:02 pm
Trolley problem
The only life one should be allowed to take is one’s own, no exceptions.
#5 by Malc on November 9, 2010 - 9:44 pm
I’m familiar with the trolley problem, having studied a few semesters of philosophy. It’s also the basis of my “if you could save 20 by killing one terrorist” comment.
But I don’t get why it is relevant to your subsequent comment. I mean, I’m delighted for you that your world is so black and white. But mine’s grey, and I can’t get on board with the “no exceptions” rule. Self-defence? War?
#6 by cynicalHighlander on November 9, 2010 - 11:56 pm
Black and white end up with shades of grey which sink into murkier depths, one killing led to this carnage and no I don’t wear a poppy.
The Causes of World War One
#7 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 10:00 am
I’m as aware of how WW1 started as you are. But I’ll ask something else – you said before that you shouldn’t be allowed to take anyone else’s life. Does this mean that in, for example WWII, we should not have fought – that we simply should have allowed mass killings? That we should not have gone to defend Kuwait in the Persian Gulf War because people might be killed? Again, I think this is too black and white. I agree that war is bad – but sometimes war is necessary too.
#8 by Stuart Smith on November 10, 2010 - 12:07 am
The right to self defence is the answer, why was he not armed? he escaped to a neighbours house, should have escaped to a hidden firearm, a rather simple answer!
#9 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 9:56 am
I was really confused by this for a second – you are referring to the capital punishment case, yes? So do away with capital punishment, and allow individuals to become vigilantes? If a guy arrives in your house up to no good, shoot him and ignore due legal process? That’s certainly one way around the dilemma…
#10 by Caron on November 10, 2010 - 8:33 am
So much to write, so little time………
I can see a situation where someone wearing a padded jacket is shot dead by armed police on the way to buy a newspaper, or a latte because some police intelligence unit has its wires crossed.
The number of people killed by terrorists is, thankfully, miniscule, compared to the number of people killed by alcohol, or cars, or smoking yet the use of measures to curtail our civil liberties in the face of this tiny risk is entirely disproportionate.
Why not try to deal with these other issues – oh, wait, the Parliament is, this afternoon………………
#11 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 9:54 am
Two quick points.
1) I specifically mentioned the Menezes case as an example of when it goes spectacularly wrong. But mistakes become news whereas successes tend to stay private so they don’t burn sources.
2) I guess if its a “miniscule” risk then we shouldn’t bother at all right? Disband MI5 and let the terrorists build their bombs. There were 52 people killed in the 7/7 attacks. We have a population of c58million. Which, by your logic, means an approximate chance of being killed by terrorism in that attack of what, 1 in 1.1million (on numbers alone).
Of course the chances are low (that’s a good thing). But they wouldn’t be as low if we simply let the terrorists run wild.
#12 by Colin on November 10, 2010 - 10:49 am
“I’ve always been more of a utilitarian than a consequentialist”
Surely utilitarianism is a form of consequentialism? Whatever, my impression is that attempts to define morality are largely academic: people generally make moral decisions on utilitarian grounds.
My sole problem with utilitarianism is that people are not omniscient, and can very rarely be certain of the consequences of their actions. In a situation like the trolley “problem”, or McVeigh about to press the trigger on his bomb, it would be morally abominable *not* to act. But these are so hypothetical that they have little relevance to real-world moral choices.
#13 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 11:03 am
Yes, I suppose it is – but its a special kind of consequentialism! I think I meant to argue that though I was in Mill’s camp on some things, I do believe that Kant had a point about intrinsic good. But I was tired when I was writing, so apologies for that.
I think you are right though – this is a hypothetical discussion. But where better to have a hypothetical philosophical discussion than on our comments page! Of course we can never be 100% sure of the consequences of our actions, but we can reach a level when we are fairly sure that doing x action will result in y. How “fairly” sure we’d have to be that someone was going to commit a terrorist act before we killed them is, as Caron points out, the difficulty.
Incidentally, I’m not sure people make more decisions based on utilitarian grounds – Caron (above) appears to be arguing that civil rights are intrinsically good and that even though there is a risk of terrorism, that risk is small and we shouldn’t act to defend people from a potential threat, because doing so outweighs the intrinsic good. But maybe I’m misrepresenting her here.
#14 by Colin on November 10, 2010 - 11:20 am
But the argument you describe is exactly utilitarian. She’s saying (on my reading, and on yours) that it’s not worth sacrificing our civil liberties *because the risk is small* – i.e. if the threat from terrorism were greater, the calculus would shift in favour of curtailing civil liberties. As you say, when all options lead to negative consequences, it’s about choosing which “outweighs” the other.
#15 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 12:42 pm
Perhaps… but I did say that I thought Caron was arguing from a position that civil rights are an “intrinsic good”. I can’t speak for her (and wouldn’t try) but I think she’s argue that even if the threat was greater, civil rights would still outweigh security. Its the Ben Franklin position. But I’m not sure – perhaps Caron can clarify herself?
#16 by Stuart Smith on November 10, 2010 - 11:58 am
was really confused by this for a second – you are referring to the capital punishment case, yes? So do away with capital punishment, and allow individuals to become vigilantes? If a guy arrives in your house up to no good, shoot him and ignore due legal process? That’s certainly one way around the dilemma…
Malc @ 9:56 am.
I am not in favour of capital punishment, but if someone is in your home abusing and intent on killing your family, there is no point on dialing 999, when the police are 20—->30 minutes away, you csan resolve the situation in seconds and save your family, that is not allowing someone to be a vigilante, it is the same a policeman / soldier / why can not the same rights be here, as in other countries.
#17 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 12:43 pm
I don’t think it is quite the same as a soldier, but I take your point. It certainly takes care of the problem.
#18 by Indy on November 10, 2010 - 12:26 pm
I’m also confused. The police/security services are allowed to use lethal force if they believe someone represents an immediate threat. Are you suggesting that they should be allowed to use lethal force if they simply think that someone MIGHT at some point represent an immediate threat? That doesn’t make sense to me. They have the power to detain people on those grounds, I think that is sufficient.
There’s another aspect to it, which might be morally more difficult. Let’s imagine that you are a passenger in a plane which is hijacked and is going to be crashed into the centre of London (or Glasgow or Edinburgh). In those circumstances it is likely that the plane would be shot down, killing everyone on board even though they are all (with the exception of the hijackers) innocent people. Is that justified? I would say yes it probably is, if there is no alternative.
#19 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 12:46 pm
Indy – on your first point, I wasn’t saying we should give them more powers, I was just trying to discuss the current powers and whether they were justified. And indeed, trying to work out whether it was consistent for me to be against the state killing people after they had committed a crime (capital punishment) but perhaps be a little more lenient with allowing them to use deadly force in the case of terrorists (ie – those who have not yet committed a crime but may be about to). I think yes, it is sound (despite the counter-intuitive nature of it: killing the guilty is bad, killing those who are not yet guilty is “good”) but its the practicalities (as you point out in your second paragraph) that are the difficulty.
#20 by Caron on November 10, 2010 - 1:06 pm
I do indeed take the absolutist position on this. It is never right to go killing people you think might be about to commit a terrorist act. Benjamin Franklin talked a lot of sense.
I don’t even agree with control orders because I think it’s wrong for the state to detain people without even letting them know the evidence against them, or having that evidence properly tried in the judicial system.
I also think that you don’t know how many lives would be lost if you did kill the suspect, in the future. Say you killed an innocent person, no lives are saved because he wasn’t doing anything. His dad, on hearing the news, dies of a heart attack induced by shock. Then you have the wider consequences of the resentment you cause in his community from taking that action and what that might lead to whether it’s rioting or growing some new terrorists.
It’s an interesting debate to have about hypothetical circumstances, but if we change our lives and give up our liberties, then we lose as a society. End of.
Sara Bedford has written a really good post on Tom Harris’ rubbishing of civil liberties on Twitter which I think would be worth people interested in this thread reading.
http://sarabedford.org.uk/neither-human-nor-british/
#21 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 1:14 pm
Thanks for clearing that up Caron. I’m of the Franklin school of thought too (though you wouldn’t know it from the post!). For the benefit of those who perhaps don’t know his maxim:
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Which makes sense. However, again, I’m not sure that the contemporary world works on such a black-and-white maxim.
On an aside, what say you on Bin Laden? Are we right to try and bomb wherever he may be – his terrorist training camps as well? Or should we be trying to apprehend, rather than kill?
#22 by richard on November 10, 2010 - 1:47 pm
“If you could save 20 people from certain death … by killing one person you know is planning to attack, would that killing be wrong?”
That sounds scarily like the argument used by George Bush to justify torture.
#23 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 2:20 pm
It was supposed to.
#24 by BenSix on November 10, 2010 - 1:49 pm
I think – without having a firm position on the ethics of killing – that there should be a clearer distinction here…
If the state had known McVeigh was going to bomb Oklahoma City and shot him dead on the way – and in the process saving 168 lives – would that be justified?
If our intention is to save lives then killing would only be justified as a last resort. Otherwise one should attempt to apprehend the would-be target (thus, in this example, saving 169 lives!).
#25 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 2:21 pm
Indeed, but if apprehending him was out of the question, and the choice was between letting him live (to carry out his terrorist act) or killing him (and thus saving 168 lives at the expense of one)… what’s the answer?
All other things being equal of course…
#26 by richard on November 10, 2010 - 2:38 pm
All this hinges on being able to see into the future and to absolutely know for sure that that’s what he’s going to do.
“if apprehending him was out of the question” – so we’re going to chip away at the scenario until it boils down to: “we know he’s going to kill 168 people, can we exchange 1 life for 168?” which, like many hypothetical questions, is devoid of any shade of grey. If it’s that simple, then of course we must kill him. Simple maths.
Life however, is never that simple. There are always more issues at play. Laws are made to deal with real life, which is never simply black and white.
#27 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 2:44 pm
I agree, which is why I’m not convinced that it’s right for the state (and by that I mean police and/or MI5 types) to kill… merely that in some cases it may be justified for them to do so when the threat to society is readily identifiable.
#28 by richard on November 10, 2010 - 2:43 pm
Going right back to your first line “at 26, can I really make the claim that I’m all grown up” – I hope you never try to claim that; “grown up” implies that you’ve stopped growing.
Keep up the good work 🙂
#29 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 2:46 pm
I’m not sure how I should take that! Thanks… I think?
#30 by Indy on November 10, 2010 - 3:37 pm
I don’t see the comparison with George Bush’s remarks on waterboarding. Waterboarding is a form of torture, not murder (unless it goes wrong.)
The reason that evidence should not be obtained by using torture is not only because torture is wrong (although it is) but because such evidence is inherently unreliable. If someone is being tortured they are liable to say whatever they think you want to hear in order to make it stop.
#31 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 3:42 pm
I think the idea of a comparison arises because its a state doing whatever it takes to protect its citizens – whether that is torture or killing terrorists.
Perhaps my post would have been better (and certainly more difficult to defend in terms of consistency) if I’d written about how much I was against torturing suspects, but that I felt that it may be justifiable for states to assassinate those suspected of planning terrorist activities? Is that a consistent position to hold?
#32 by Indy on November 10, 2010 - 5:26 pm
I don’t think torturing people does protect citizens for the reasons I have already given – and because “normalising” torture just makes every one of us more vulnerable to torture.
#33 by Malc on November 10, 2010 - 5:29 pm
Well, yes – whether either does actually do what is intended of it, that is, protect citizens, is a debatable point as well. I’ll give you the normalising torture point, because I agree with you – but what about the fact that terrorism has become “normalised”? Should we fight fire with fire?
#34 by Indy on November 11, 2010 - 3:19 pm
“Should we fight fire with fire?”
You need to try and look at it from the point of view of a terrorist – difficult I know but bear with me.
From their world view it looks like the west are far more guilty of callously murdering innocent civilians than terrorists are. Western countries are the aggressors, not them – indeed they probably see what they are doing as fighting fire with fire.