Since the election of the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition in May the political debate has centred around their determination to reduce the deficit – and to do so in the main by cutting what George Osbourne describes as “wasteful spending“. Of course, the collective left are having a field day, with multiple campaigns against the cuts though Labour (if you still recognise them as a party of the left) recognise the need for some cuts. I guess I’m somewhere in the middle (which means in this post I’m going to piss off both left and right and lose any friends I’ve made in the last few weeks).
The reason I’m writing this post is my reaction to this piece by Caron. Basically, she has reacted rather angrily to the way the Daily Mail has covered this story. Granted, it doesn’t really take much to get angry at a Daily Mail article, but I’m not as annoyed by it as Caron is. Indeed, I’m more annoyed at the subject of the article.
As background (and there may well be more to this story than has been made public – especially since it is a Daily Mail story!) the couple in question have recently had twins (born early September) which brings their family to six children. Neither parent works and they live in a small council house – and have “demanded” to use the Daily Mail’s terminology a larger (council) home. Caron argues – not entirely unjustifiably – that the Mail should be emphasising the need for better and more affordable housing rather than criticising them for not working and naming their children after celebrities. I’m not immune to this at all.
But I do think we need a little perspective as well – and this is where the “cuts” debate above comes into play. Having debated with Caron on the issue, its clear that she thinks if we don’t help the children in this situation we are actively punishing them for their parents’ choices. My argument was and is that there is a distinction to be made between actively providing support (and thereby helping the children) and withholding support (which would not help them but equally we wouldn’t actively be hurting them). Absolutely, it isn’t the kids fault their parents are irresponsible. But it also isn’t the taxpayers’ responsibility to play parent in their place. Obviously, its a tough situation, and I have sympathy with them. But they made choices to have 6 children knowing well they could not afford them.
As a young, recently-wed, (unfunded!) postgrad I well understand the pressure we’re under to try to buy a property. But there’s no way I could afford it at the moment. So I rent. And I have done for three years. And the flat is one bed and a boxroom – its not like I’m a rich brat living in a four-bed mansion here. And because I’m still a student, we cut back – we don’t do all the things we’d like to do, we buy only the shopping we need and cut out the luxuries. We did, however, get a cat. After a lot of considering whether we could afford it, eventually we decided we could. Granted, a cat is not as costly as a baby (or 6) but that’s not really the point. We realise our limits and have made decisions based on them. In short, I like to think we’ve been responsible.
Now, obviously my situation is different – and perhaps I’ve been given better opportunities than the parents (and definitely the children) in the case highlighted above. Â I’m not immune to that argument. Â All I’m saying is that 6 kids when you don’t have a job just isn’t responsible. And I’m just not convinced that the state should pick up the slack – I wouldn’t expect them to if it was me.
Maybe it is unfair to pick on this family (especially the way the Daily Mail has). But maybe its time for some tough love. Let’s support these people, but do it in a way that isn’t simply a hand-out for people who don’t have a job but still think they can support a family of six because the government will pay for them. Let’s help them make the right choices, be more responsible with their decision-making (and family planning!) and let’s not just give them state handouts when they want a bigger house.
For me, when you hear people moaning about folk scrounging off benefits when “I’m out working my fingers to the bone” this is why. It’s why people are apathetic about politics and disengaged with politicians. Parties continually go into elections with pledges to “get Britain working”, to get people off benefits and into jobs, and yet when it comes to it, the jobs just aren’t there.
I couldn’t agree more with what Simon Heffer says here: “welfare should be a safety net, and not a way of life.” In the meantime, let’s not vilify as “right-wing” those who have recognised this and are trying to change it.  Otherwise we’ll be forever stuck with a system which seems to suggest that if you want a bigger house just have six kids and the government will pay for it.
#1 by James on September 28, 2010 - 7:12 pm
Personally I think providing homes for families is a far better way for the taxes I pay to be spent than many of the other things it gets wasted on. I think you know the list, so I won’t rehearse it again here.
Leaving that aside, the first choice here is to leave it up to them to pay for a bigger house, which for the period it doesn’t work will mean more kids get brought up in worse circumstances. Given the likely impact of the ideological LibDem/Tory cuts, that period could be very long.
Alternatively, we collectively could be building more council houses, not selling them off below cost, and providing a safety net and tackling homelessness.
I simply don’t accept the first option would remove the incentive to work. There’s an awful lot of life you miss out on without a job, more than just a bigger house (and four bedrooms for a couple with six kids doesn’t actually seem enough to me – I think they’re being very modest!).
So yes, I disagree, but of course I don’t hate you. How could I, given how cute your cat is?
#2 by Malc on September 28, 2010 - 7:46 pm
I think focusing on this one couple is probably wrong, but it is a symptom of the wider issue. And I guess the point isn’t so much that we shouldn’t get them a bigger place (I do think we probably should – but the argument needs to be made!). It’s that we need to show that decisions have ramifications – and that having six children when you can’t afford to look after them properly isn’t okay.
I guess its not the practice I object to so much as the principle. Its about responsibility – but government has a role to play in that too, by emphasising that you can’t just get pregnant six times and expect the state to look after your kids when you can’t.
And that’s why the cat is there. 🙂
#3 by Indy on September 28, 2010 - 7:13 pm
You are showing your age with these comments – not how old you are but how young you are.
Once upon a time you know pretty much everyone could get a council house even if they had 6 kids.
That’s actually how most people lived – in a council house. It’s how I was brought up, maybe it’s how Caron was brought up.
Perhaps we both remember those days and realise that benefit reform is actually a separate issue to housing.
Once upon a time governments subsidised housing by building houses. There was no such thing as housing benefit. We were all better off then.
#4 by Malc on September 28, 2010 - 7:55 pm
Yeah Indy, I’m just 26. So perhaps I don’t have the longest life experience or knowledge of a “better time”. But as I said to James above, its not really the housing that’s the issue. Its people’s attitudes. I don’t have a problem with people living in council houses at all – I think we should be building more. But having six kids when you are unemployed and living in a 2-bed council house and “demanding” and upgrade… that’s the wrong attitude.
#5 by E.R on September 28, 2010 - 7:40 pm
James: “I simply don’t accept the first option would remove the incentive to work.”
I, unfortunately, see your point disproved on a daily basis. I work on a JCP contract for long term (18mths+) unemployed.
Very often, people come to me and tell me it’s not financially worth their while working. This might sound ridiculous, but in many cases, it’s the truth. Having not worked for a lengthy period of time, most people will return to work in an entry level position. With children to care for (and the costs of childcare) they will most likely not be able to work full time. The benefits they receive outweigh their earning potential.
It leaves me in a bit of a sticky situation, but the benefits system is such that for some people, they don’t see the need to work, as the government will see them better off.
Before I started this line of work just over 3 years ago, I think my views would have swung much more to the left, but I do think some tough changes are required to change the mindset of the current and next generation of benefit recipients.
#6 by James on September 28, 2010 - 8:02 pm
Ah, E.R., I’m not claiming the benefits system as a whole doesn’t remove that incentive, I do understand the benefits trap. I’m a big fan of our policy to end all means-testing through a citizen’s income – that way every penny you earn stays with you.
#7 by Indy on September 28, 2010 - 9:17 pm
But housing often is the issue James. Because housing costs take up such large proportion of peoples incomes – much larger than in the past – it’s an integral part of the poverty trap.
#8 by James on September 28, 2010 - 9:31 pm
I know, I’m not trying to oversimplify. There’s no point replacing JSA with a Citizen’s Income and then reclaiming Housing Benefit at a 1:1 rate to leave people in the same hole.
#9 by Phil Hunt on September 29, 2010 - 1:48 am
Houses aren’t expensive because they are expensive to build, they are expensive because the politico-economic system makes them so. If houses were mass produced in factories, they could be built for £20,000 each.
So if we had a rational housing situation, then citizens income would be able to replace JSA, and there’s be no need for a benefit specifically for housing, just as there is no need now for a benefit specifically to buy internet access.
#10 by John Ruddy on September 28, 2010 - 9:35 pm
Indy is right, housing costs are a massive part of peoples cost of living these days, that for so many people council/social housing is the only housing they can afford.
As I said on Caron’s site, up til 3 and a half years ago we too lived in Devon. One reason we moved was the massive cost of housing – I earned too much to claim benefit, yet 3/4 of my take home pay was going on rent, council tax, water rates and utility bills. The remaining £200 had to not only feed our family, but also pay the running costs for the car i needed to work plus any other extras like new clothes etc. The cost of a suitable private property in Plymouth for this family would mean at least one of the couple having a very well paid job. Not so easy, even if such a job was available.
#11 by Malc on September 28, 2010 - 9:47 pm
John – I don’t disagree. But you moved (and you also, presumably, didn’t have 6 kids when you knew you couldn’t afford it!). My situation is not entirely different to yours. We live in a private flat in Edinburgh, and it is small, but its just about what we can afford. If we wanted something slightly bigger we could move further out – but then you pay for transport costs. But basically, we’re living off one salary and covering the rent, council tax etc etc. At the moment (and for the foreseeable future) it IS our cost of living! But, again, its about the decisions you make.
#12 by Jeff on September 28, 2010 - 11:08 pm
Here’s a point – in most economies there simply aren’t enough jobs for the population. There will always be ~5% or so who will not be working. What should be done with them? Turfed out on the street? No kids? Cut their knackers off?
Yes, it makes for a better country if everyone is striving to get into employment and we don’t better our nation by sitting at home twiddling out thumbs but (1) it’s lazy to assume that people who are unemployed and seem to enjoy generous housing are not interested in working and (2) we need to have more homes than people. It’s abundantly clear that somewhere along the way we’ve taken our eye off the ball with affordable housing.
So the combination of knowing that some people need to be unemployed in Scotland/UK and wishing there is always more homes than people means that I am not overly concerned that a family of 8.
Plus, it’s easy to exaggerate how nice an area is with 4-bed homes in it. Is it wrong of me to exaggerate the other way upon learning that Southway’s main newsworthy story is the BNP trying to make a foothold there? Can’t say many working folks would trade neighbourhoods.
Anyway, that really is a cute cat Malc.
#13 by Malc on September 28, 2010 - 11:24 pm
Jeff – again, I don’t disagree. Of course there are always more people than jobs. And of course its lazy to assume they are not interested in working (and I think if you read the piece again you’ll see I never said that – though I guess you can take that as an implication should you wish).
But I’m NOT assuming that. What I AM saying is that the fact that NEITHER of them have a job and yet still consider having 6 kids as a good decision because the state will make sure they are okay is not really acceptable. Not to sound too much like the Daily Mail here (sorry) but basically you (and every other taxpayer) are paying for their irresponsible decision-making.
As for the cat being cute… well, not at 5am, when he’s haring round the flat.
#14 by Jeff on September 28, 2010 - 11:42 pm
Fair enough, worthy of a gripe of course but there’s nothing one can ‘do’ about it presumably. One can’t stop people having kids, we can’t have families on the streets and we can’t go knocking knackers off people just because they’re unemployed and have a large family.
Could make for a good recruitment drive though:
‘Let he who is without son cast off the first stones’
#15 by Malc on September 28, 2010 - 11:50 pm
But that was kind of my point. The fact that the state will pick up the tab, be it through actually providing them with a 4 or 5 bed house, or by maintaining benefits at a high enough rate that it makes working a less attractive choice (as alluded to by E.R above), actively encourages decision-making of this nature. If you take away that incentive (“tough love” as I referred to it earlier) you wean people off that state-dependency.
This is where I get into trouble with the left…
#16 by Stuart Winton on September 28, 2010 - 11:10 pm
Terrific post Malc, all the more so because it’s not the kind of thing I would have expected to see on Better Nation ;0)
I can identify with Caron’s perspective, however. Indeed, when I was your age I would probably have agreed more with her than you. By the same token, I particularly recall a situation about 15 years ago – when I was a couple of years older than you – when I was absolutely boiling about someone using the term “do-gooder”. Can’t even remember what it was about precisely, but because of their position vis-a-vis myself I felt obliged to keep my gob shut. However, a few years later and I’d concluded that I would probably now use the term “do-gooder” in precisely the same pejorative manner as that person I’d been absolutely fuming with. Funny how a few years can completely change your attitude.
Same, perhaps with the phrase “bleeding heart Liberal” (upper case ‘L’ intended!).
When my ‘career’ went askew a few years ago instead of festering on the dole I took the sort of job that thousands of people – perhaps even literally millions – in the UK can do, and I’ve been doing it ever since, even though I can’t say I particularly enjoy it, to put it mildly.
I can’t exactly claim to be on the poverty line, but I live in a crap area, don’t drink or smoke, rarely eat out etc, don’t have proper holidays and still have little to show for it, but I don’t go running to the state to help me out.
Which is perhaps how I can identify with your own circumstances and have less sympathy with the family in question than I would have 20 years ago.
Of course, it’s not that I’m entirely unsympathetic with the likes of the family in question, and clearly there are no easy answers. This is particularly so in relation to the children but, on the other hand, it’s not difficult to discern the sort of attitude that they might grow up with, which of course merely perpetuates the problem.
But perhaps the basic ‘welfare dependency’ problem and the so-called ‘sense of entitlement’ displayed by so many people can be rationalised in terms of a maxim orignating from a time a lot earlier than those two more contemporary phrases: “Give (some) people an inch and they’ll take a mile.”
Indeed, it’s the same with the whole law and order thing. Years ago I would have sympathised with the ‘root causes’ argument and all that, but using that as an excuse just allows people to take the Michael. Perhaps the real ‘root cause’ is the being excused of wrongdoing by the, er, root causes argument, if you see what I mean!!
#17 by Malc on September 28, 2010 - 11:26 pm
Thanks Stuart. What can I say? I did clear it with my co-editors first (they are a little more “left-ish” than I am!). But the principle is the same – I’m trying to portray my view of what a Better Nation actually is. And just to be clear – it isn’t “savage those on benefits”. Its “help those on benefits to be more responsible with their decision-making”.
As for the rest of your comment – can’t fault it!
#18 by The Irn Juq on September 29, 2010 - 2:51 am
The UK has an ageing population, and things like Universal Child Benefit are there to help encourage people to act “irresponsibly” and have larger families.
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I don’t really see what the Green’s proposed Citizen’s Income would do to change this.
All in, the couple’s maximum income from JSA, housing & council tax benefits, and UCB/Child tax credits is about £25-30k, which is close to what a foster parent could expect to receive per child.
#19 by Malc on September 29, 2010 - 11:12 am
I’ll be honest, I don’t know enough about the Citizen’s Income to make a case for or against it. Maybe James can elaborate (or provide a link!).
#20 by Indy on September 29, 2010 - 10:01 am
It is about the economy and the way it increasingly revolves around getting on “the housing ladder”. We have stopped looking at houses primarily as places where people live. This is one of the biggest mistakes we have made over the past 30 or so years.
It’s all Thatcher’s fault. Seriously!
#21 by Jeff on September 29, 2010 - 10:05 am
I agree Indy. Wasn’t it Thatcher that said if you were 30 and still taking the bus then you’ve failed?
And lo and behold, trams, bridges and cruise liners roll into town. Must be Thatcher.
You’re right though, we seem wedded to the housing ladder in a way that other countries are not. It’s probably because noone has a decent pension so bricks and mortar is the only safety net many can imagine for the future.
#22 by Malc on September 29, 2010 - 11:14 am
Indy – that’s a similar point to the one I was trying to make when I talked about the pressure I was under to try and buy. We are wedded to this idea – as Jeff says – that we must have property.
As an aside, I’m interested in your conception of houses. “We have stopped looking at houses primarily as places where people live. This is one of the biggest mistakes we have made over the past 30 or so years.” Wouldn’t we rather houses were homes? Rather than commodities? Or have I misunderstood.
#23 by Indy on September 29, 2010 - 10:14 am
To sum up – in my opinion there is no reason why the state should not subsidise housing. It makes much more sense to subsidise housing directly by providing homes for at an affordable rent than it does to subsidise the housing “market” through housing benefit, while simultaneously forcing local authorities to sell off council houses at massive discounts.
Whether or not people are in work they are entitled to a house and decent living conditions for their children. There are tens of thousands of families in Scotland today who do not have that – and have no prospect of ever having that. This is why we need to change policy radically, build more council houses and end the right to buy. The Scottish Government is taking those steps but unfortunately this change of policy has coincided with an economic crisis so we will be stuck with the problem for some time to come.
Benefit reform is a separate issue in the sense that, yes, we can all agree that there needs to be an incentive for people to go off benefits and into work. That means ending the poverty trap where people are better off not working than they would be working. The high cost of housing is a factor in this because most people moving off benefits and into work will be going into low paying jobs which, although they are low paid, may put them just above the threshold where they qualify for housing benefit or where the housing benefit they qualify for is not enough to make ends meet.
#24 by Malc on September 29, 2010 - 11:17 am
That is the point though, isn’t it? And I agree, almost entirely. Housing and benefits ARE linked.
But how do we fix it? And how do we stop politicians in opposition telling us how they will fix it before getting into office and doing nothing about it for fear of losing the following election?
#25 by Indy on September 29, 2010 - 11:59 am
You can’t accuse the SNP of not doing anything about the housing problem in terms of the policy levers that are under our control. There are more council houses being built now, we are scrapping right to buy. As I said it is very unfortunate that we are entering an era of cuts because the funding available for new housing is bound to be squeezed and the Scottish Parliament has no borrowing powers.
In terms of benefit reform and incentivising work, the SNP is actually in much the same territory as the Greens in favouring a Citizen’s Income type of approach. I think in reality the current UK tax and benefit systems can’t be reformed. The bureaucracy is just too massive and cumbersome. We do need to start again. That’s another argument for independence in my view.
It’s all very well to say that we should have a “tough love†approach but you can’t do that without hurting people in genuine need. The whole idea that cutting benefits at a time of increasing unemployment will drive the scroungers out and make them work is pretty naïve in my view. The jobs that are available will go to those who have an employment history and can provide good references etc. It will be harder than ever for people who have been out of work for a long time to find a job. And there are people who just can’t work but who get lumped in with the scroungers and will suffer the same punishment.
Rather than focusing everything on making it more difficult to claim benefit, we should be focusing on making it easier to work. That means looking at the underlying problems of high housing costs, poor access to childcare etc. But then of course you get people saying why should I be subsidising social housing and childcare? If people can’t afford to buy a house then don’t have children etc. And we are back to where we started.
The really ironic thing is that many couples have been doing just that. Because housing costs take up such a high proportion of their income they are not having children or delaying it till they are in their late 30s. This is what has led to the decline in the fertility rate, hence the need for more immigration. I think our politicians may have missed a trick with that one. They should have said either we spend more on things like housing and childcare so that families can afford to have more than one child or we replace the population through immigration. Of course that might cause the average Daily Mail reader’s head to explode. An added advantage perhaps?
#26 by James on September 29, 2010 - 12:03 pm
Loads of good points in there. I’m not sure the Gordian knot of UK tax and benefits couldn’t be reformed properly, but it’d certainly be extremely hard to do and would meet staggering levels of institutional resistance.
On right to buy, Patrick Harvie’s in Committee right now trying to persuade the other parties to strengthen current plans.
#27 by Malc on September 29, 2010 - 12:05 pm
WHOA! Easy!
I wasn’t directing that at the SNP at all – and of course I recognise the austerity measures make this a difficult issue at the moment. And again, much of what you say I have no truck with. Tackling the underlying issues IS of course the way to gradually easing this burden. But you are right – it is a classic Catch 22, and governments will be unpopular however they decide to tackle it.
As for Daily Mail readers’ heads exploding, if Jim can fix that…
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