This post was inspired by the comment I made on James’ Scottish Green Party post yesterday, but its really something I’ve been thinking about for a long time. Â And the question is this: what role do the Scottish Greens want to play in Holyrood?
The party has, arguably (and you will probably debate this point) secured more in the way of concessions to an environmental agenda from the current Scottish Government than the previous one, despite only having 2 MSPs in this session to 7 previously.  Now I’d argue that is mostly because the parliamentary arithmetic has placed the Greens in a position whereby their 2 MSPs have a disproportionate amount of influence for their size – they have, in essence, become kingmakers.  While this hasn’t always worked to their advantage (when the other, larger parties agree – see Trump development, AWPR, Forth Bridge) they have forced the agenda at times (home insulation stuff, climate change targets – though the latter are not ambitious enough for many Greens).  Thus it seems  that, through fortunate circumstances of electoral mathematics, the Greens wield some influence in Holyrood, evidence that the wider environmental movement does influence the politics of Scotland.
Yet, with May 2011 and the coming Holyrood election on the horizon I’m led to consider that the party may face a trade-off. Â If we look towards recent poll numbers (and, indeed, the historical precedents of 2003 and 2007) we’ll recognise that any increase in Green votes and, ultimately, seats, leads to a corresponding decrease in SNP votes and seats. Â They are, historically speaking, inversely proportional. Â When the Greens go up, they take SNP votes (witness 2003). Â When the SNP poll well, the Greens suffer. Â Thus I’d wager that the Greens may pick up a couple of seats in May – and the SNP will maybe lose a couple at their expense. Â My question really though is, regardless of who wins the election, will the Greens be better off?
My answer, somewhat paradoxically for a political party increasing their representation, is probably not. Â Depending how the election works out (and I’d be very surprised if the parliamentary arithmetic works out quite as tight next time around) the four potential Green MSPs would find themselves in a situation whereby they couldn’t influence budgets and bills in quite the way they currently do with two. Â And that is interesting.
It begs a further question – are the Greens a party or a movement? In many ways this can be asked of any party which is part of a wider ideological movement. Â Indeed, I’d argue that you don’t necessarily have to answer in the definitive to be influential (though I would argue that the SNP have, with their ditching of the referendum bill, defined their existence and priorities much more as a party than a movement dedicated to independence – but I digress). Â But at its heart is a fundamental paradox of green politics. Â Do the party need parliamentary representation to move a more environmental agenda or can influence be brought to bear on the political process without wielding power?
In some ways this taps into a post I wrote about the Lib Dems taking office in May, but in particular the analysis of Wolfgang Muller and Kaare Strom regarding the motivations of political parties – the so called “Policy-Office-Votes” triangle. Â For political buffs, it is worth a read, and I won’t go into too much detail here. Â The point I will make though, is that, as a movement and, crucially, as a party, the Greens focus is clearly on policy – and that can be achieved without necessarily gaining votes or office success, though they will be proximate goals on that path.
Final conundrum.
From what I’ve said in this post, it may be implied that I don’t think there’s any point voting for the Greens. Â This would be entirely misconstrued. Â I’ll leave it to the party members in our ranks to explain why, on policy terms, you should vote Green. Â All I’ve done is show from a structural perspective that the parliamentary arithmetic has provided influence without power. Â However, if we look again at the Policy-Office-Votes triangle, the one thing that is clear is that far from being exclusive, the concepts compliment each other. Â Votes provided the basis for office success which provide the platform to deliver policies. Â If policies are the ultimate goal of the party – and I think they are – then that journey begins with votes.
I think that’s a long way round to tell you that voting Green actually does help the environment!
#1 by flying train on September 10, 2010 - 12:48 pm
hi Malc
are you getting any rumours or info yet on the result of the liberton / gilmerton by-election held yesterday and counting today?
though it should be hold for Labour, it will be interesting to see other parties, especially the libs, considering the political changes since last scottish elections (or by-elections)
#2 by Malc on September 10, 2010 - 1:04 pm
All I hear so far is what is on Twitter. Nothing on numbers (other than a turnout of 28%) but the order on first preference appears to be:
Lab, SNP, Tory, LibDem, Green, SSP, independent, Pirate Party. (see @EdinburghGreens for more)
#3 by Jeff on September 10, 2010 - 1:12 pm
You’ve phrased the question well Malc.
When it comes to parliamentary numbers vs influence that the party will have, there is only one of the two that the Greens can do anything about and that’s numbers. The more doors that are knocked and more persuasive the message, the more Green MSPs there will be and the higher chance that influence will be reached in the Chamber as a whole (as the more MSPs you have the greater chance you’ll hold the balance of power).
However, that is in practical terms, but you asked what the party “wants”. A much tougher question, particularly with the world at such a key point in its battle against Climate Change.
I would still argue that the Green Party would rather more members in the Parliament than holding the balance of power though. You still get more visibility, more questions, more resources with more MSPs and that can be leveraged to as much effect as influence at budget negotiations etc, if not in directly a manner.
One interesting question is this, assuming I am wrong and the Green party would prefer the influence over the parliamentary numbers, – Given the Greens would be more likely to take regional seats off the SNP, and the SNP are on track to fall a few seats short of Labour, is there any way that it is in the Greens interests to run a ‘light touch’ campaign, save some money and increase the chances of having fewer MSPs but more influence?
Or, alternatively, target regions where it is more likely that Labour/LDs/Tories will win the 7th regional MSP slot as this would, as things stand, increase the chances of holding more power AND more influence?
Then again, if Labour are as unlikely to form a coalition with the Lib Dems then it probably makes no difference who is the biggest party.
Interesting, you’ve opened a can of worms here. In my mind at least….
#4 by James on September 10, 2010 - 8:41 pm
It’s a fascinating question, and Jeff’s right on this part: all we can influence is the numbers we return. If we do the work and campaign as hard as we can on sensible and persuasive messages, we’ll have done our best. The external circumstances then may be for us or agin us, but the aim is to win more seats.
We’re in this because we believe our ideas and proposals would help make this a better place to live, and we’re in it to change things. The priority is the change, legislative, cultural, administrative, etc, and the more seats we win the more likely we are, all other things being equal, to be in a position to deliver it.
It may be true on some occasions that any additional seats may come from the parties who need to win more for a balanced Parliament, but I don’t accept that’s inevitable or even always likely.
Imagine we get a dice to roll for each MSP we elect. If we get a six on any of those dice we’ll be in a position of potential influence. The more we elect, the higher the probability of influence. That’s the oversimplification I prefer.
#5 by Malc on September 11, 2010 - 9:15 pm
Jeff,
Your first point – about the only thing that the Greens can themselves influence in the election being the seats they win – is totally valid. However, I guess my defence is that this post was never intended as a campaign guide for the SGP! And indeed, you recognise this with the rest of your comment.
And I’d argue you are probably right that the Greens would “rather more members in the Parliament than holding the balance of power”. They probably would. I guess my question is really geared at wondering whether that is the right mindset – and that, really depends on a second question I raise, whether they see themselves more as a party or a movement (and which is more important). And I don’t have an answer – I’m asking the questions!
As for the PRACTICAL implications of valuing influence over power – and what that means for campaigning – I guess James has answered that to an extent below. And, indeed, I’m not sure you can really campaign like that, but it IS interesting to speculate (as we are prone to do!).
#6 by cynicalHighlander on September 10, 2010 - 8:21 pm
I think that the Lib Dems and the Tories are liable to suffer next May when the cuts coming start to hit public services big time. Don’t forget how our public service media will spin things to suit there own political leanings which could hit the green vote adversley.
#7 by James on September 10, 2010 - 8:42 pm
I’m not following you on the second part there – could you explain?
#8 by cynicalHighlander on September 10, 2010 - 9:19 pm
James the BBC who take there news in Scotland from Labour’s press releases will attack all and sundry to hide the Labour party’s misdemeaners and as such the Green’s will be ignored unless they are attacking the SNP, Tories or LibDems.
Why do you think NewsnetScotland was set up by unpaid individuals? http://newsnetscotland.com/speakers/487-here-isnt-the-news All Scots are being abused no matter their political leanings by our state broadcaster and when the Greens come large enough to being a threat to unionism then you will find that you become the target.
#9 by John Ruddy on September 10, 2010 - 9:16 pm
I think Jeff has hit upon a vital point – it really depends on what Labour will do. At the moment, all the smart money is on Labour being returned as the largest party – all that remains to be decided, it seems, is how large.
Since they are unlikely to have an overall majority on their own (thgouh not impossible), then they will have to either form a coalition/supply & confidence deal, or govern as a minority. We’ve all seen that a minority government can work, it can get its budget through, and some of its policies as well. So it depends on the possible partners – Tories? Impossible, short of WW3. Lib Dems, unlikely, and they seem to be suffering in the polls most at the moment, so will not be able to offer as many MSPs as in the past. SNP? Whilst there is policy overlap in several areas, I think this is as likely as one with the tories.
Which leaves the Greens. If Labour have MSPs in the high 50s, and the Greens have increased their numbers – even as high as 7 – then they could have as much, or even more influence than they have now. Although Labour could govern as a minority, I think the party would prefer to work with another party to provide greater legitimacy. We could even see a Green Minister or two.
I for one would welcome that, although my impression is that some Green supporters would prefer to be outside of government.
#10 by Malc on September 11, 2010 - 9:22 pm
John,
Thanks for the comment – and you may be interested in a couple of previous posts we’ve done on the subject of potential outcomes in May:
On LAB minority: http://www.betternation.org/2010/09/is-labour-minority-now-the-most-likely-outcome/
On LAB-SNP: http://www.betternation.org/2010/09/coalition-sense-or-sensitivity/
On SNP-CON http://www.betternation.org/2010/09/is-an-unholy-alliance-the-divine-intervention-that-snp-and-tories-need/
Incidentally, on your last point (reluctance of Green members for a coalition) I think I agree – from those I have spoken to, they’d much rather be on the outside influencing things. Its much harder to oppose particular government policies when you are the junior coalition partner, thus I think any deal involving the Greens would only be confidence-and-supply. And even that would only be on some issues, similar to what has happened with the SNP.
#11 by rgweir on September 10, 2010 - 10:25 pm
i have just stumbled on to better nation
and intend to pop in from time to time
and see if it can lure me into being a
regular reader,,good luck.
#12 by Malc on September 11, 2010 - 9:23 pm
Great! Hope you enjoy – and join in the debate as much as you can!
#13 by Anon on September 13, 2010 - 11:13 am
Whilst this blog amounts to little more than the three authors having a wee chat between themselves – incestuous doesn’t begin to describe it – this post makes the least sense of all of the posts thus far.
Considering how little the green party have done in this session to then describe them as a party that’s likely to make gains is quite remarkable. Whilst the issue of climate change has been on the pages of most papers this summer I’ve barely seen a comment from a green party politician – something that I would have thought would have been of enormous concern to not only green MSPs but also to one of the authors of this blog.
From messing up during budget proceedings over the home insulation scheme to being virtually anonymous in parliament and Scotland as a whole – that is not the description of a party that is likely to see much progress which is a pity, as when the rare green comment appears in the press or when a green MSP does something in parliament it is often something I agree with. Pity, however, that neither of those situations occur that often.
#14 by Malc on September 13, 2010 - 11:34 am
Erm… Is it a case of the Monday morning blues mate?
We’re very much trying to be positive here, analysing party positions and prospects and telling it like we see it. I’m sorry if you find it “incestuous” and that you think it doesn’t make any sense, but I suppose the easy answer is “if you don’t like it, don’t read it”. And commenting anonymously? Well, that’s brave, isn’t it?
Nevertheless, I’ll answer your comments.
My reasoning on the Greens making gains is that if you look at 2003, when they did well it was partly because the SNP did badly. I’m not saying the SNP WILL do badly, but historically (2003 and 2007) the party governing has LOST seats – and from my point of view if voters want to punish them, but are still “semi-nationalists”, they are likely to vote Green.
I’ll let James answer the charge that the Greens are “anonymous” in Scotland as a whole (a charge that I don’t agree with) but I’d suggest that there’s only so much press you are going to get with 2 MSPs – which is what Jeff alludes to above.
#15 by Anon on September 13, 2010 - 12:03 pm
And commenting anonymously? Well, that’s brave, isn’t it?
Dear god. What a rather pathetic retort. It’s like student union debating hall stuff.
#16 by Malc on September 13, 2010 - 12:30 pm
Why, do they wear ski masks so people don’t know who they are either? I don’t think its unfair to like to know who I’m debating with.
Anyway, on point. “Messing up during budget negotiations” – I do disagree with your premise there. The SNP thought it was in the bag. I was critical of the Greens at the time, but as Patrick Harvie points out (http://www.patrickharviemsp.com/2010/09/there-is-a-better-way/) the budget didn’t fall because the Greens voted against it. It fell because the Greens, the Liberal Democrats AND Labour voted against it. And whatever your view of their actions, that is true – 2 MSPs can’t themselves bring down a budget.
#17 by Indy on September 13, 2010 - 12:30 pm
I don’t think there is as clear a connection between the Green and SNP vote as you think. Yes there are some voters who kind of wander about from election to election and could vote Green or SNP – but they could equally vote Lib Dem. Until now. I am quite sure that there will be many thousands of Lib Dem votes up for grabs. The problem for the Greens is that they don’t do much (or any?) voter ID so they won’t necessarily know where those Lib Dems voters are.
#18 by Malc on September 13, 2010 - 12:35 pm
Indy,
I think that’s fair. I’m not trying to say that, on an individual level, that is what will happen. All I’m saying is that when the Greens did well (2003) they did so at the expense of the SNP. When the SNP did well (2007) they did so at the expense of the Greens. But I do take your point – we do have a different political situation now – and the Lib Dem vote may be the one that the Greens target.
I don’t know what the Green organisation on canvassing is like (James? Though maybe you don’t want to/ shouldn’t really reveal that!). But there’s a piece in yesterday’s SoS (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scotland/Greens-bid-to-pull-in.6526856.jp) suggesting the Greens will target Lib Dem seats (though according to @EdinburghGreens on Twitter, nothing has been decided yet). So perhaps canvassing does suggest that might be productive.
#19 by anon on September 13, 2010 - 12:57 pm
the budget didn’t fall because the Greens voted against it
I’m not saying it did. Their stance in the end looked quite ridiculous though. They got what they wanted but messed up in the end. Not convinced anyone in the green party really knew what they were doing. Think the publicity in the run up to the vote got to them slightly.
#20 by Malc on September 13, 2010 - 1:05 pm
I’m not privy to internal SGP discussion, nor do I know what went on at the time. But I think its clear that they did NOT get what they wanted out of it (and indeed, when it was brought forward a second time, they were the only party who voted against it). As far as I understand it, promises were made on the home insulation scheme which were not met in the original budget – it was scaled back considerably – and that flipped the Greens support. Though again, perhaps James can elaborate.
Maybe it did look like they messed up – and, as I said before, I was fairly critical of their position on my blog at the time – but I think their position was consistent throughout. It was really that the SNP misjudged their support.
#21 by anon on September 13, 2010 - 2:51 pm
Malc I see what you are saying but I’d suggest the problem was that the greens tried to overplay their hand and in the end, in my opinion, looked ridiculous as a result.
#22 by Jim Jepps on September 15, 2010 - 3:37 pm
I think this is a really important question and one that is impossible to resolve once and for all. At the end of the day politics should be about delivering the kind of change you believe in – but it should also be a long term affair.
That means that while a small number of elected reps can wield a lot of power if the maths is right we’re aiming at a place where we are the majority.
Here in London before the local elections we had soe really interesting exaples of this. In Islington we had just one councillor but she had enormous influence and managed to achieve a huge amount because the council was, I think, 29 LD, 30 Lab and 1 Green.
Elsewhere, like Hackney our people had to operate in what was effectivley a one party state (Labour) and had little to no influence because of it.
If chance puts us in a position to have direct influence that’s great, but I think the aim is to influence the public – both in terms of our ideas to shift public opinion regardless of how they vote and to ‘convert’ them into voting Green.