John Milton’s classic poem ‘Paradise Lost’ had the stated purpose of justifying the ways of God to men and elucidating the conflict between God’s foresight and free will. For the SNP’s particular view of paradise, Alex Salmond may have to elucidate and justify the foresight that he is claiming to possess (not to mention free will that he is exerting) over the best route to his party’s paradisical view of independence.
There are many reasons why the SNP will have decided to not push any further with its somewhat bruised and battered Referendum Bill but the most pertinent of these reasons is that there is now insufficient time to vote on it, discuss it and actually pass it before next year’s elections.
Further to having it passed in sufficient time, there are also good reasons why the SNP should have made sure that they pushed as hard as possible to implement their manifesto commitment of holding an independence referendum in the past few years, not least because they are now leaving themselves wide open to charges of hypocrisy (as these quotes from SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson regarding the Lisbon Treaty show)
On Labour:
On Lib Dems:
Is there much difference between Labour’s aversion to a Lisbon Treaty referendum and the SNP’s aversion to putting forward an independence referendum?
Well, there is actually. In ‘publishing’ a white paper, the SNP has matched what it stated as one of its priorities in its 2007 referendum:
“Publication of a White Paper, encompassing a Bill, detailing the concept of Scottish independence in the modern world as part of preparations for offering Scots the opportunity to decide on independence in a referendum, with a likely date of 2010.”
The “likely date” of 2010 never did come to pass but there is no unbroken pledge in there as far as I can see.
Of course, this is technical details and politicking that we are all supposed to be moving away from though one wonders just how far into the future the SNP was thinking when it penned its popular 2007 manifesto. However, the bottom line is – surely believing in and arguing for your principles is more important than ducking the argument because you know you are going to lose; as was the case with Lisbon and is the case now.
So, how smart the politics of all of this is remains to be seen but it is worth mentioning that this seemingly newly adopted strategy is a departure from what the perceived plan for this parliamentary term was for the Nationalists – namely to have a Referendum Bill voted down by the Unionist parties and then take their case and their umbrage to the people at the 2011 election.
The current situation is more nuanced and involves pros and cons for Alex Salmond as he tries to beat off the strong challenge from Labour, (if not strong specifically from Iain Gray). The White Paper was called ‘Your Scotland, Your Choice’ and so it remains as we are back to hearing the same arguments as we did in 2007.
Advantages to dropping the Bill
– The Bill has not been blemished by the stain of parliamentary defeat so maintains a purity that may invite public popularity while simultaneously repelling attacks from opposing parties.
– One cannot reasonably take a rejected proposal to the people to ‘let them have their say’ when those same people’s representatives have just voted down that same policy proposal. Although we know what the result would have been had a vote taken place, an independence referendum is as valid a topic for discussion as, say, the economy and education, if Parliament hasn’t just had its say on the matter.
– Party morale will remain higher knowing that it won’t just be an SNP majority or SNP/Green coalition that can deliver a referendum, as would have been the case if each of Labour, Lib Dems and Tories had just voted no to a referendum in late 2010.
– With unionist MPs from both sides of the border already having considered backing a referendum in order to end the issue once and for all, there is every chance that such a view may be taken once more after the heat of an election contest has faded and the posturing gives way to consensus-building.
Disadvantages to dropping the Bill
– this adds credence to the various suggestions that the SNP has broken too many of the manifesto commitments that carried it into Government in the first place (LIT, dumping student debt, class sizes, PE in schools, free fruit in schools, Scottish Futures Trust). The din will soon be a cacophony, with varying degrees of justification for each pledge.
– a sceptical public may wonder at the lack of urgency from the SNP, urging Scotland to be independent for its economy’s sake, but reluctant to get on with discussing the merits of holding a referendum which would get us there and oddly content to procrastinate on the matter.
– What was the National Conversation for, not to mention the civil service hours spent on referendum questions, if the corresponding Bill wasn’t even going to be put before Parliament? Money has been wasted in the past four years and, given the cuts that are on their way, that could be a damaging mistake if the amount is quantified and significant.
Were Labour to win power next year and the SNP to find themselves coming through their perfect storm and into the calmer but unwanted waters of Opposition with little to nothing to show for it, history may not be kind to the Nationalists with regards its tactics on independence and the 2007-2011 parliamentary term.
The situation would beg the question – how did a decades-old Nationalist party, having formed the first Government in its history, fail to put a Referendum Bill before Parliament and argue their case for independence in the national Parliament in the full glare of the public and the national media?
I do not know how Holyrood works in detail but, for the SNP’s sake and if there is still time, this Referendum Bill should be put before MSPs as the strawman that it is and Gray, Goldie and Scott should be forced into voting it down. Only then can the opposition leaders be clearly painted as the obstacles to Scots having a say on Scotland’s future.
I am sure historians would pick better words than these but ‘bottled it’ might be the settled historical opinion if this reported rethink on a referendum is realised.
Indeed, Alex Salmond famously claimed that Gordon Brown was ‘the feartie fae Fife’ but the First Minister’s not very brave manoeuvrings with this referendum could ironically peg him as ‘the bottler fae Banff’.
Paradise lost? Power lost? Party leader lost? We could see the SNP selecting a new party leader in mid-2011 if this all goes horribly wrong and, amidst the internal conflict that that would inevitably cause, also the prospect of the Nats remaining in Opposition for a few parliamentary terms to come. Poetic justice perhaps for those outwith the SNP who have so consistently failed to shine in Salmond’s shadow.
This is an enormous decision for the SNP and, while there is still all to play for for the Nats, there is also everything to lose.
#1 by Griff on September 6, 2010 - 9:11 am
If you look at the legislative timetable it is hard to think where the Referendum Bill would fit in. There is no room for maneuvre unless they drop bills which have a chance of passing. It would look pretty bad if on top of the money, time and effort already expended, bills already in process had to be sacrificed to a bill which is certain to be defeated.
#2 by Jeff on September 6, 2010 - 12:09 pm
Precisely Griff.
I knew the SNP were ‘out of time’ in some way but I didn’t know specifically why. As you say though, there is no space in Parliament’s diary and pulling perfectly good, passable bills in order to have the referendum bill defeated would look terrible.
It’s time (up)
#3 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 9:57 am
I like it Jeff – strongly worded stuff. The FM will be choking on his morning coffee when he reads this! (Aye right – ed).
The only point I think I’d make is one which you’ve made already – that the opposition parties can ONLY be painted as being obstructionist if they actually ARE obstructionist… and that means giving them the chance to be! If the SNP don’t bring forward the bill, then they can’t really say that it is the opposition which stopped the referendum.
However, on the same point (and from more of a neutral perspective than I’m used to), I can’t help but think the Unionist parties have missed a trick here. I mean, they want to save the union. Devolution was intended to “kill nationalism stone dead (ref – George Robertson) and it has failed. Losing a referendum on independence, the SNP’s raison d’être might not kill them off, but would wound them considerably, perhaps even fatally. If the Unionists were so convinced that the public would not support independence (and they should be – the polls suggest only one in four support) then surely it would be worth the one-off cost to have the argument once? Because surely the cost of being indecisive (in terms of inward investment) is more than the cost of a referendum?
#4 by James on September 6, 2010 - 11:10 am
I agree – as Indy points out below, Labour’s ditching of “Bring It On-ism” was a tactical mistake given the polling. Salmond must have been delighted that Labour under Grary let him off that particular hook. Early on in this session (and late in the last one), Salmond’s relatively untarnished personality could deliver miraculous things (twenty new seats in 2007, Glasgow East), and many of the SNP’s opponents will have feared a similar effect in the referendum, but he’s lost his magic touch now, and arguably already had by then.
#5 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 10:58 am
I think you are missing the point that the SNP has spent the past 3.5 years looking for ways to get the legislation through. It was never the plan to have the referendum bill voted down by the Unionist parties. It was the plan to find some way of getting it through.
The position the various parties have taken on it have been pretty fluid after all and, having successfully managed the Budget process, the SNP had some cause to believe they could find a way to make the numbers stack up in their favour. Clearly that was optimistic but there you go.
With the benefit of hindsight maybe we should have seized on Wendy Alexander’s gaffe and called their bluff. It was a bluff and of course she was ditched shortly aferwards and dispatched to the back benches. And that tactic would only make sense, as I said, with the benefit of hindsight.
Anyway to get to the point – why is it better to delay the referendum than to allow it to be voted down? Because it would be a gift to our opponents. It would mean they could say parliament voted against this just months ago, the SNP needs to learn to accept the will of the people, they are just obsessed with a referendum to the exclusion of jobs & the economy etc. We don’t want that to be the narrative of the campaign – we want to be able to set our own agenda on independence.
#6 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 11:22 am
Indy,
While that is, undoubtedly, one way (and a very fair way at that) of looking at it, I doubt very much that many will see it that way. Indeed, I still have some friends in the SNP (honest!) and I know for a fact that some members are livid with this new tactic. You wait 75 years for an opportunity to put independence on the table and then, just as you have the opportunity, the party leadership bottles it.
Now, as you say, not everyone sees it that way – indeed, it may, in hindsight, prove to be another Salmond stroke of genius. But for me (and some of my ever-decreasing circle of Nat friends) it screams of a defeatist attitude. Its giving up the fight before you’ve even had it. SNP members who believe in independence as the ONLY thing that holds the party together won’t be sold on it – the party has failed to keep their word to THEM that they’d hold a referendum, so what will the general public think?
My fear for Salmond, and the SNP, is that this will be portrayed as another broken promise in a long line of them… and that the opportunity four generations of SNP members have been waiting for has been pissed up against a wall. I hope I’m wrong.
#7 by Jeff on September 6, 2010 - 11:54 am
Indy,
Fair point, I didn’t mention that the SNP has genuinely and cleverly toiled away at the unionist parties waiting for an opportunity to actually have the referendum. There is an unmistakable optimism and zeal within the SNP that believes that a full debate and vote on the issue is winnable, whatever the polls say. So you’re right, plan A was to actually have a referendum but plan B, the opposing parties voting it down, was always more likely.
Now we’re on to Plan C of delaying the vote and, yes, this may perhaps improve the SNP’s chances of winning more seats in May ’11 than they would have if the independence referendum had just been defeated in Parliament but if they don’t win power and miss their 4-year opportunity to present a Referendum Bill in Parliament, they will have fundamentally gang’d aglae.
To continue the literary theme, I would predict Mutiny on the Bounty from the Fundamentalists who don’t understand how the party missed the boat, ‘Stranded’ if you will.
To counter your argument as to why it is better to delay the referendum than to allow it to be voted down, I would suggest that the public could quite rightly question whether the SNP would present a Bill between 2011-2015, given they hadn’t in 2007-2011. I mean, what will have changed? If the SNP do win next May, it’ll still be a minority Government with unionist parties having enough votes to vote the Bill down.
I don’t see much extra benefit to the cause unless Salmond forces the opposing leaders’ hands. Those voters you mention who would point out that the referendum was voted down mere months ago are not the voters who will back you, even if it doesn’t go to a vote.
#8 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 12:31 pm
I am surprised to hear that Malc. Alex has emailed every member with an email – maybe the people you know have not passed their emails on to HQ? Anyway it will be circulated among the branches.
It’s not a question of waiting 75 years and then bottling out. Placing a bill before parliament in the sure and certain knowledge that it will be defeated is not putting a referendum on independence on the table,. It’s allowing it to be thrown out with the rubbish – and giving our opponents the opportunity to crow about that all through the election campaign.
Also, it’s not true that the SNP Government promised members that they would deliver a referendum. They promised that they would do their utmost to deliver that – and they have done their utmost. They have tried every route and every tactic and it hasn’t worked. That’s not their fault, it is down to the decisions made by the unionist parties.
So that’s where we are – and it means we will be fighting the 2011 election on independence. That is going to be the centrepoint of our campaign. Far from putting it on the backburner, we are putting it front and centre.
Personally, everyone I know is quite excited about that. It’s a high risk strategy but it’s where we are right now and it feels right.
#9 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 12:45 pm
Indy,
I don’t doubt that Salmond has emailed every member and told them why he’s doing it. I just know a few that don’t think his strategy is right. Though in 2007, most didn’t think his bold “20-seat” strategy would work either, so maybe he’s right and they are wrong again – I don’t know.
You’ve been clever with the way you’ve phrased the second bit – “it’s not true that the SNP GOVERNMENT promised members that they would deliver a referendum.” That’s absolutely accurate. But as a party – BEFORE they were the government, the 2007 manifesto promised the:
“Publication of a White Paper detailing the concept of Scottish independence in the modern world as part of preparations for offering Scots the opportunity to decide on independence in a referendum, with a likely date of 2010.†(page 8).
Now I know its hard as a minority to deliver everything you said you would (see LIT, SFT, abolition of student debt) but this is a different thing I think. It’s raison d’etre stuff. Obviously you and I are unlikely to agree here – but ultimately, the election in May will prove one of us wrong. And I will be delighted if it is me, but I’m sceptical.
#10 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 12:46 pm
Also, the SNP will be fighting the 2011 election on the issue of independence? About bloody time I say!
#11 by James on September 6, 2010 - 1:00 pm
Gosh, what a sure-fire way to lose. Every election the SNP fights is on independence, it’s just that last time they also had the advantage of being the fresh-faced alternative to the tired administration.
Now they are the tired administration, and the real issues people are anxious about are around the economy, public services, inequality, and quality of life (inc some of the environmental agenda).
How is yet another election talking only about independence a high-risk or exciting strategy? It’s like saying “Yey! UKIP to fight election on hating Johnny Foreigner!”.
#12 by cynicalHighlander on September 6, 2010 - 2:18 pm
Yes the SNP is tired its tired of opposition for opposition’s sake, its tired of the written media where stories are purposely twisted and its tired of the visual media especially our state broadcaster who writes the news rather than reports it here in Scotland. Why do you think Newsnet was set up it was to counter the outright lies and highlight those stories the ‘normal’ media try to sweep under the carpet.
Wouldn’t you be tired if the truth was being manipulated at every turn to discredit your integrity.
The economy. If one is dished out pocket money at the behest of Westminster there is nothing that can be done. Full fiscal autonomy is the very least that one needs.
Inequality has been increasing for decades under unionist rule so how are the SNP going to tackle that with the limited powers under devolution.
#13 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 1:10 pm
Not being pedantic but the SNP published the White Paper. The manifesto commitment has actually been met.
You suggested that party members would feel let down by the leadership because they have not delivered the referendum. But that’s not their choice. They have not chosen to be in that position. We just don’t have the votes to win it and, despite all the machinations of Mike Russell and Alex Salmond, no-one is budging.
#14 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 1:16 pm
That’s fine, but if I was an SNP member (and I was at the time) I would have read that to be “we’ll bring forward a White Paper, then we’ll bring forward a referendum bill, then a referendum, then independence”. Now, obviously, the latter part of that is outwith the SNP’s control. But BRINGING FORWARD THE BILL is not, and legitimately I think, members will be pissed that they haven’t really tried.
Okay, our definitions of tried will be different – and yes, I can see they have done (especially when Mike Russell was in charge of the Bill). But will the more “hardcore” Nats (the fundies – if there are any left) and indeed, as Jeff asks below, the public in general, see this? Or will they just think the party bottled it? I’m inclined to think they’ll just see the latter, especially because the media is particularly anti-SNP, and will simply present the Unionist spin. But, as I said before, I hope I’m wrong.
#15 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 12:38 pm
“To counter your argument as to why it is better to delay the referendum than to allow it to be voted down, I would suggest that the public could quite rightly question whether the SNP would present a Bill between 2011-2015, given they hadn’t in 2007-2011”
Well firstly we are going to present it. The Bill will be published but won’t be presented to parliament because it would be a waste of time. They would vote it down at Stage One.
Seondly, you ask “what will have changed?” between 2007-2011 and 2011-2015.
Well what we are going for is 1. a bigger majority and 2. increased support for independence.
If we get that, we will get our referendum. If we don’t, then Scotland will be in the hands of the Tories again.
#16 by Jeff on September 6, 2010 - 12:59 pm
Indy, thanks for the response.
When I said “present” it, I meant to Parliament rather than merely published in a White Paper. I disagree it would be “a waste of time” but we’ve covered that and can just agree to disagree.
You say you are going for a bigger majority but I would still argue that a majority of 1 seat (as is the case now) or 6 seats (as is surely the ceiling of the SNP’s realistic aspirations) would not change any parties’ position on this issue. Moreover, most of the public won’t appreciate the political positioning of the past 4 years, won’t understand why the SNP didn’t take their chance and will generally whoop and holler at each of the many, many times that Unionist parties point out that they didn’t have a Bill to vote on and, as you point out, the SNP didn’t take up the ‘Bring it on’ offer when it was on the table.
That said, it’s great to hear the party’s collective tail is up for what will be a difficult contest and, what I considered to be the biggest risk in all of this – internal party strife, does not look likely to come to fruition.
#17 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 1:15 pm
James you can’t talk about the economy without talking about independence.
Otherwise you are simply accepting that we can only discuss issues like public services, inequality, and quality of life within the straightjacket of Tory economic policy.
Maybe you want to do that but the SNP doesn’t.
We do not have to simply accept the economic status quo. There are alternatives and we will be talking about them even if no-one else is.
#18 by James on September 6, 2010 - 3:21 pm
I disagree – and I am a supporter of independence too, before you assume that’s the problem here.
There’s a tonne of stuff that SNP Ministers could have done on public services, inequality and quality of life within existing budgets. It’s SNP Ministers who’ve failed to deliver a living wage for public sector staff, who’ve used the Concordat to force cuts down through local government, who’ve pressed ahead with absurd motorway schemes and proposed pathetic carbon reductions of 0.05%.
It’s not Tory economics that forced Salmond to cosy up to the bankers and envisage a weightless economy built on speculation (an approach backed by Labour and the Lib Dems too). It’s his own (and Jim Mather’s) instincts that led him and Scotland astray there.
If they can’t use the existing powers to improve Scotland, why would anyone give them more powers to use? I’m personally disappointed that we’ve had three more years of neo-liberalism, incompetence, and failures of the imagination from the SNP, all of which make it less likely we’ll see the successful, fairer and more sustainable independent Scotland I’d like to live in.
#19 by Scott on September 6, 2010 - 2:09 pm
There is one dog that hasn’t barked, and which I am sure is pivotal in the decision. Any legislation introduced into the Scottish parliament has to be within the Parliament’s legislative competence. The Presiding officer’s legal team have to rule it competent. One reservation (which therefore falls outwith the competence of the Parliament) is in relation to the constitution. Many lawyers have thought a referendum bill could not be competent (especially given the precedent of the ruling on the right of appeal in civil cases to the House of Lords being treated as contrary to the constitutional reservation). The herald piece yesterday suggested this was a factor. If so, whatever the politics, it is a knock-down argument.
Whatever the Scottish people say in May if it is not competent now it will not be competent then either.
#20 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 2:19 pm
Jeff the question of whether the SNP presents the Referendum Bill to parliament is academic.
We are not going to get it. There is no conceivable way that we are going to get the referendum in this session and we have to acknowledge that.
The choice we then have is whether we present the Bill to parliament and give our opponents the chance to vote it down and, in the process, accuse us of wasting parliamentary time (because we know for a fact that they will vote it down). Alternatively we don’t present it to parliament and our opponents accuse us of bottling it. Either way we get slated and the end result is the same. No referendum.
For myself I think the argument that we have to put the bill before parliament is a bit too Holyrood-villagey. It’s about process more than outcome. We already know the outcome. It’s not a question of the Unionists not having a Bill to vote on – they will have the Bill, they already know what is in it and they have said that they will vote it down. If there was the slightest chance that they would not vote it down, we wouldn’t be doing this.
As for the accusation of bottling it – that would only have credence if we were. But since we are going to run an independence campaign it won’t have any credence.
Overall, I think that most of you are reading this wrongly. When we came into power in 2007 we had a pretty clear game plan but events interceded. We did not know in 2007 that we would be faced with general economic collapse, massive public sector cuts and Tory/Lib Dem coalition down south. That has changed the whole picture and we need to adjust to it.
You say that we do not have a realistic chance of winning a sufficiently large majority to get the referendum in the next session. OK but that doesn’t mean we don’t have an unrealistic chance – that’s still a chance. And you are not taking account of the impact of these changed circumstances on the other parties. I said to James that the SNP does not want to discuss issues like public services, inequality, and quality of life within the straightjacket of Tory economic policy. That’s also true of Labour. But, whether they or we have the largest number of MSPs, that is going to be the position that the 2011-15 administration finds itself in. There is only one clear way to get out of that situation.
#21 by Jeff on September 6, 2010 - 2:31 pm
Well argued Indy, particularly the ‘there’s only one way to escape the Tories’ line.
We saw how almost all constituencies closed ranks against the Conservatives in each Scottish constituency in the UK election so how this message goes down in advance of May 2011 will be fascinating.
#22 by Chris on September 6, 2010 - 2:59 pm
2 points:
1. Alex Salmond hoped to bounce the referendum in the after shock to a Tory victory. The LibDem coalition has meant that this gamble has failed.
2. The case for independence remains weak. Rather than engage in debate and build a national movement for independence the SNP leadership decided to take a punt, wait for everyone to be in shock with a Tory majority, give the vote to 16 year olds just to help it along. It really was a lazy strategy.
3. The cause of independence remains cursed by an economic paradox: if everyone is feeling well off then no one wants to change; if every one is feeling poor then people won’t risk change. Unless the UK does something draconianly and clearly unfair to Scotland then this is not going to shift. And if the Poll Tax couldn’t lift support for independence over 40%, then it is a big challenge.
4. Independence will happen when mosts Scots want it: which doesn’t look likely in the foreseeable future.
#23 by Chris on September 6, 2010 - 2:59 pm
Sorry 4 points!
#24 by James on September 6, 2010 - 3:30 pm
Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise! Our two weapons are fear and surprise, and ruthless efficiency..
#25 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 3:32 pm
Yeah, that amused me too. Though I was going to go with “So much for the SNP’s Curriculum for Excellence – we can’t even count to four!”
#26 by Patrick on September 6, 2010 - 3:05 pm
I don’t have a great deal of sympathy with the argument that a lack of Parliamentary time was the great problem here.
As the Government party, the SNP control most parliamentary time and could have introduced their Bill at any point during their four year term. I’m sure that the frontbench will put forward their detailed explanation about why it didn’t happen, and many SNP members will accept them. But the big-print headline which most people will see out in the wider world is that the SNP had their chance and didn’t take it.
Labour’s careering around between referendum policies was embarassing, but when they did alight for a while on “bring it on” the SNP could have accepted the opportunity. Some people will put this down to a lack of judgement. Others will say it’s clear the SNP had no confidence in the outcome of a referendum. Either way it’s hard to see anyone who wants a chance to vote on this at last (whether they want to vote Yes or No) to forgive easily.
I’m also interested in the timing. I was led to believe that over this same weekend ballot papers have been going out to SNP members for the Holyrood selection process… if that’s true, will this announcement have any effect on the choice of SNP candidates? Discuss…
#27 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 3:33 pm
Who is making the argument that this is about lack of parliamentary time? It’s not.
I agree that the SNP could have introduced their Bill at any point but they would have lost.
It’s true that the party could have accepted Wendy Alexander’s challenge when she made it in May 2008 . She was not saying that Labour would vote for the SNP’s Bill though! It would have been a referendum on Gordon Brown’s terms.
It could be argued that we should have jumped at that chance within the very short space of time that the door was halfway open. In hindsight maybe we should have – but at the time the strategy was to stick to the timetable. Remember the White Paper had not been published then, so we’d have been accused of rushing into a referendum before people had a chance to study the arguments. And of course Labour changed its position within weeks.
Regarding your final point – the SNP has already selected its constituency candidates, that happened over July/August. The ballot papers that are being sent out now are to rank the list candidates. There’s no connection that I can see.
However the SNP’s National Assembly – the party’s policy-making body – met in Perth this weekend to discuss the manifesto. Also Alex Salmond has also emailed all emailable members about it and it will be discussed at branches.
#28 by James on September 6, 2010 - 4:54 pm
I don’t think sounding positive about Wendy’s offer would have led to accusations about rushing into a referendum. A quick and constructive response would have led either to a Labour vote for an early referendum, or to an earlier and even more spectacular collapse in her leadership.
Personally it seems clear to me that the SNP don’t want a referendum either. They’ve seen the polling, and they know they’d lose. That’s all that underpins the decision to snub Wendy’s offer.
#29 by Joan McAlpine on September 6, 2010 - 4:40 pm
I agree with your conclusion Jeff. But there is a way the people of Scotland can have a say despite the blocking tactics of the opposition. It is possible to hold a consultative vote “by order of council” eg Salmond could make an executive decision. Blogged on it here
http://bit.ly/ay8Okv
#30 by Scott on September 6, 2010 - 4:53 pm
BUt on what legislative authority? Any SSI can be voted down by the whole of the Scottish Parliament (which is not bound to approve all government actions). And the Herald piece you refer to does not make clear what the legislative authority is for the Scottish government to act in this way.
Additionally, the legislative competence issue which affects the possibility of primary legislation (and which the Presiding officer’s office has raised with the government according to the Sunday Herald report yesterday) – affects any subordinate legislation too.
Scott
#31 by Jeff on September 6, 2010 - 4:55 pm
I appreciate that you are impatient to crack on with things Joan but an Order In Council or SI is not a sensible option.
A referendum pulled out of Alex Salmond’s backpocket is not the correct way of going about deciding a nation’s future, particularly when the SNP has always said that as a minority Government it will respect the will of the parliament and seek to win arguments within the Debating Chamber.
Only with the full force of the Parliament at its back can a referendum carry Scotland into independence. There are no shortcuts.
Interesting idea though…
#32 by Chris on September 6, 2010 - 4:46 pm
The ‘bring it on’ challenege was primarily designed to flush out the wait-for-the-tory-election-victory stunt. Labour might have backed a referendum then and the LibDems (one now learns) would do anything for a sniff of power. Even the Tories might have backed it. So a referendum wasn’t impossible if the tactics were good. But they were lousy, Alex might be a punter, but he’s also a bookie’s friend. He went for the 25/1 accumulator instead of doing a bit of hard graft and building alliances.
The reason there is little time left is because the SNP were waiting for the tory victory. It really was a sordid way to play with the nation’s future.
#33 by Indy on September 6, 2010 - 5:02 pm
That is rubbish Chris. In May 2008 – which is when Wendy Alexander made her bring it on statement – a Tory general election victory was by no means certain, so there was no “wait for the Tory election victory” stunt to flush out. You are either re-writing history or endowing Alex Salmond with prophetic abilities that he does not possess.
#34 by Chris on September 6, 2010 - 5:12 pm
Conjecture Yes, Rubbish Possibly.
Whilst a Tory victory was indeed by no means certain, it still looked pretty likely, the YOUGOV poll at the time had the Tories on 47 and Labour on 23!!!
And the chances of winning a referendum would be very much improved by that possibility, as I am sure you would concede. So it made perfect political sense to wait for the Tories to get in and try to win a referendum on the public revulsion at that.
Most governments introduce referendums early in their term of office before the public gest jaded with them. Why else wait until after the General Election when they had four years to introduce it?
#35 by Baron Sarwar on September 6, 2010 - 5:45 pm
The “Tory victory = good” meme within the SNP may have had a few adherents, some of whom were quoted in newspaper articles of the time, but equally there was a major strand of thought pre-May 2010 that a Labour overall majority dependant on Scottish MPs was the ‘best’ outcome in terms of putting the referendum front and centre. 12 months of the Daily Mail et al squawking about the Tartan Raj and so on may have brought about a bit more concentrated thought on Anglo-Scottish relations within the Union. But it’s academic now.
And Jeff, while I think you’re right re: internal strife between now and polling day, I worry that a near re-run of 2007’s election result next year (i.e. SNP minority govt with a maj of 1/2/3), combined with an 18-month wait for another Bill process, might start ructions with one or two… I think the phrase Sillars used to use was “Central Belt Activists”. I hope not.
#36 by Joan McAlpine on September 6, 2010 - 5:24 pm
Jeff no referendum can “decide Scotland’s future” Under the British set up they are consultative only – that would be the case even if by some miracle the bill got through parliament. So Dr Qvortrup, who is decribed by the BBC as “the world’s expert on referenda”, is simply saying that Salmond can opt for a consultation with the people. It has no legal standing but politically it could be very useful. If Qvortrup has got it wrong re The Scotland Act that is a different matter. But he seems pretty sure of his ground.
#37 by Jeff on September 6, 2010 - 5:41 pm
“no referendum can “decide Scotland’s future””
Sure they can Joan, not legally binding of course but a successful referendum for the SNP would, to all intents and purposes at least, be game over for United Kingdom as it currently stands.
How could the UK Government possibly ignore a referendum commissioned by the Scottish Parliament that carried a yes vote for independence? It is simply inconceivable.
A Council Order thingy or SI on the other hand can quite easily be dismissed, similar to how Brian Souter’s ‘referendum’ on Section 28 was no more than a one-sided exercise that circumvented the democratic process.
Turnout would be abysmal and, even if the SNP won the vote, they’d be a laughing stock.
I am not disagreeing with the validity of Dr Qvortrup’s suggestion, merely your assertion that it would be “politically useful”, which I don’t think it would.
#38 by Scott on September 6, 2010 - 5:48 pm
But any order in Council is subordinate legislation that has to fall within the competence of the Parliament – as ministers must act within the powers prescribed by the Scotland Act. If the presiding officer will reject a bill (as seems to be the implication of paras 14 and 15 of the Sunday Herald report) yesterday he is unlikely to rule subordinate legislation doing exactly the same thing as being within the competence of the Parliament.
The Order in Council provisions to circumvent the limitations of Sch 5 of the Scotland Act (which are the limits the Presiding officer’s office are relying on, and which were the limits referred to in the original August 2007 White paper) require Westminster and Holyrood approval. No unilateral action of Holyrood can circumvent the Sch 5 restrictions.
Referenda and the public expenditure that would be required to support them would require legislative support. An Order in Council could provide such legislative support – but where is the authority for making an Order in Council calling such a referendum in the powers that are delegated to Scottish ministers either under prerogative powers, under the pre-1998 Act Westminster legislation, post 98 Westminister legislation, or Acts of the Scottish Parliament? And how could such a power (which I cannot find – and which is not referred to in the leading books on constitutional law (at UK or Scottish level)) be exercised in a manner outwith the powers which otherwise circumscribe Scottish ministers and the Parliament? The Herald piece contains an assertion – but without identifying the basis for this assertion.
#39 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 5:33 pm
Joan,
I’m with Jeff. I think constitutionally it could be quite useful (in that Salmond could, for want of a better word, circumvent the will of Holyrood to get his referendum). But for me, politically, this isn’t useful at all. Any traction he gained by actually forcing a referendum would be lost in the politics of it all – namely that he had expressly ignored the will of parliament (and, by extension, the will of the people, since he subscribes to the view that the people of Scotland are soveriegn). I don’t disagree that its possible – constitutional experts trump PhD candidates in my experience! – merely that it is not politically prudent to follow this course of action.
#40 by Malc on September 6, 2010 - 5:35 pm
Also, as an aside, hasn’t Salmond already had his “consultation with the people”? Isn’t that what A National Conversation was supposed to be?
#41 by Burdzeyeview on September 6, 2010 - 5:59 pm
Thought I’d join the fray for a moment – agree with a lot that is being said, even when it is opposing! And I also blogged on it, and gave my own tuppence worth on some of the issues raised above.
My view is to go for both. Lay a bill then fight a campaign around independence. But not as a constitutional shift, on the basis of what change it could bring about for Scotland. I think people are up for change and extremely fed up with status quo and what lies ahead. As long as they know what options change will bring.
Good debate folks! More….
#42 by Despairing on September 6, 2010 - 6:46 pm
I’ve enjoyed reading this. Isn’t it wonderful how in just over three years the debate has changed from “They willnae let you have your say” to “We cannae let you have your say”!
As I said on Burdzeyeview, isn’t it possible that in realising that the referendum will never come to pass, Salmond has decided to look more Elder Statesman-like and pretend that he is above the fray. We’ve already seen a change in his attitude at FMQs, is this the latest incarnation? Is he trying to position himself as the adult to Iain Gray’s squabbling schoolboy?
#43 by James on September 6, 2010 - 7:30 pm
The BBC’s magisterial BT has a thoughtful piece on the same subject as well.
#44 by cynicalHighlander on September 6, 2010 - 8:59 pm
He still hasn’t come up with that SDS document yet!
As an aside this blog might be of interest to some.
http://franklyfrancophone.wordpress.com/
#45 by Douglas on September 6, 2010 - 9:54 pm
This is a fantastic debate. I saw Alex Salmond on the news today talking about this and he seemed to present a below-the-surface anger that he has had to appeal ‘over the heads’ (his actual words) of Holyrood opposition parties directly to the people of Scotland.
If that is his election pitch – a vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence – then what happens of the SNP dont win or even suffer a small but clear reduction in their vote? Does that not kill the referendum question dead for a generation? Or will the manifesto be the get out clause – something like if we win a majority we will put forward a Referendum Bill?
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#46 by Lallands Peat Worrier on September 8, 2010 - 9:25 am
I share Love and Garbage’s assessment that Joan’s optimism based on Dr Qvortrup’s views is legally misplaced, I’m afraid. However, I don’t share his argument that the referendum Bill – or any referendum Bill on Scottish independence – is obviously ruled out by the Scotland Act 1998. There is, I argue, a bit of interpretative wriggleroom and certainly sufficient uncertainty to warrant giving it a go. If that wasn’t enough to put you off, the whole legalistic diatribe is here ~
http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.com/2010/09/is-independence-referendum-legal.html
#47 by Scott on September 8, 2010 - 5:33 pm
And I heartily recommend the post from LPW. Good stuff. (although I still don’t agree with him).
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