The question above is inspired by the following quote from Iain Macwhirter’s Sunday Herald column last week:
But then I’ve never really understood the point of having a referendum on independence anyway because no-one really knows what independence means any more. Flags and armies? Hardly. Border posts and a separate currency? Definitely not. The minimalist definition of independence would be the Scottish Parliament plus tax powers – and that’s likely to happen anyway. Scotland already is a nation. It is a question of acquiring the lost accoutrements of a state, and that process is already under way.
Conspiracy theorists suspect that this is what Salmond has been up to all along: muddying the pure waters of nationhood by adulterating it with devolution while distracting the SNP membership with an over-the-rainbow referendum that is never going to happen. The fact that we didn’t hear any accusations of this last week suggests that the SNP may already be on the way to becoming a post-nationalist party, accepting that independence is a process not an event. (I’d better say here that nothing Salmond has ever said publicly or privately suggests that this is his view. He insists that independence remains his only ambition and that he really wants a referendum, even though the polls indicate he would lose it).
Now, I don’t agree with his title – “They shelved independence and got away with it. Nice work, Alex”, nor do I agree that there were “precious few mourners” regarding the decision. The SNP members that I’ve spoken too – and some of them are elected members – cannot fathom the strategy. Yet I do take his point – whatever the SNP are saying in private, they are not saying it in public if it contradicts the Maximum Eck’s diktat. But that’s an aside. What this post is really about is Iain Macwhirter’s conception of independence “as a process not an event” and the SNP as a “post-nationalist party”. Both deserve further study.
When I started the proposal for my PhD thesis, my original research question asked what it meant to be a nationalist in the twenty-first century. So I have given some thought to this previously. But the question Macwhirter asks – what does independence actually mean – is an important one for the SNP. But like the previous question I asked for the Greens, it is probably one they would prefer not to answer. Muddying the terminology of independence, thinking about the movement towards some form of fiscal autonomy for the Scottish Parliament – that may well constitute independence in all but name. And indeed, in the modern world, that may well be what is meant by independence – though there would be plenty dissent within the SNP’s membership if that became an accepted version of what the party saw as its ultimate goal.
Nevertheless, I come back to his conceptualisation of the SNP as a ‘post-nationalist party’. Whenever I hear something described using the prefix ‘post’ I do have concerns – namely that whatever it is they are supposed to have become is nothing like what they were previously (see ‘post-feminist, post-structuralist’). The fact is, the terminology is used badly – generally speaking what has happened is a party or person has been a feminist (for example) in the past but has found some things with that ideology that they disagree with and doesn’t quite fit in the bracket, and so they are described as ‘post-feminist’. And so, the ‘post-‘ prefix should be understood with caution.
And yet, for some reason, I think the post-nationalist terminology works for the SNP – especially is you accept the Macwhirter conceptualisation of independence. Obviously, the traditional view of independence is one of borders, sovereignty and control of currency. Now those three things would not be fully under the control of the Scottish Parliament under this new conceptualisation, especially when you consider the interdependency of the EU and the fact that Scottish currency would either continue to be Pound Sterling or the Euro, neither of which would be controlled by Edinburgh. And yet other, larger, European nations (Germany, Belgium, Malta) work within this contstricted view of independence, this post-post-Westphalian understanding of sovereignty. So while the SNP still stand for independence, what independence itself stands for has changed. And that is key to understanding the SNP in government.
Last week I think we talked enough about the SNP’s dropping of the referendum bill, but this conception of the SNP and independence is something to think about further. I’d be interested (I guess, from an academic perspective as much as anything) in people’s thoughts on this.
#1 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 12:55 pm
Independence is full autonomy at the level of a state. Not some parts of that autonomy while being subsumed as a nation within a state. Statehood is more than some peripheral accoutrements.
Any EU/NATO/WhatEver water muddying is a red herring IMO – as an independent, autonomous state it is possible to leave currencies, alliances etc, executive capacity for which comes only by virtue of being an independent state.
Independence is not some abstract isolation within the greater world, the evidence of all other independent states should be ample evidence for anyone.
It seems to me almost wilfully obtuse to make out that Scottish Independence is somehow more difficult to understand than that enjoyed by other states we would not fail to recognise as independent.
Yes, the SNP’s approach to independence has for some time now been perplexing (although the only way they could reasonably promote it is through the media, and the only way they’ll come close to getting a fair crack at that is at Scottish elections – so dropping the referendum bill and campaigning it at election seems reasonable to me), but the sort ‘what is independence?’ stuff in Macwhirter’s piece is just the comfortable journalistic playground of constitutional relativism. If it’s not statehood, it’s not independence – to start slapping the label ‘independence’ on to various levels of devolution within the state is lazy.
#2 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 3:29 pm
But Scottish independence IS more difficult to understand, for the reasons laid out by Macwhirter. For example, the SNP, I believe are keen to hang on to the pound as our currency immediately after moving to independence before joining the Euro. In traditional terms, independence means controlling your own economics and yet that is not what the plan is – it begins by allowing London to maintain control over the currency then giving that control to Brussels/ Frankfurt.
That’s just one example, but one of many which make the question of Scottish independence slightly different.
#3 by Dougthedug on September 16, 2010 - 1:49 pm
Malc,
“especially if you accept the Macwhirter conceptualisation of independence”
MacWhirter has always been a unionist of the “federal” persuasion and his dearest desire is to keep the Union and have a four nation federal UK which most people believe quite wrongly is also the Lib-Dem dream. What you’re reading is basically a wish-fulfilment piece where Scotland has a powerful parliament but it’s still in the UK and the SNP has given up.
Like Gerry Hassan who has three articles one after the other on his blog about it, “Alex Salmond’s Big Leap Forward or Not: Rethinking the Case for Independence”, “The Second Moment of Devolution” and “A New Era Starts for Scottish Politics: Alex Salmond and Independence”, (June 30th, 28th and 26th), McWhirter can’t accept the idea of a Scottish State with no ties to Westminster.
somepapfaedundee:
“It seems to me almost wilfully obtuse to make out that Scottish Independence is somehow more difficult to understand than that enjoyed by other states we would not fail to recognise as independent.”
Yes it’s odd isn’t it? There are plenty of examples in Europe both within and without the EU of independent states but there’s a whole lot of agonising and hand-wringing among the “Intelligentsia” and the political anoraks about what independence for Scotland actually means. What the agonising usually means is that they don’t want it and are looking for obstacles.
#4 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 3:34 pm
Doug, on the latter point, I’ve commented above as to why this is maybe the case.
On your first point, obviously a person’s own views shape how they write about the issue. It is probably worth pointing out I AM in favour of independence (despite what some of you may think). However, the reason I write posts which question the mechanics of the thing is simply because I think they need to be dealt with much better than they have been.
By the way, as a stepping stone to independence, I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Scottish Parliament taking on more powers gradually – Calman, devo-plus, devo-max (fiscal autonomy) then independence. My concern is simply that independence is perhaps not everything people think it is – particularly with regards the economy and currency, and inter-governmental relations on an EU level.
#5 by Dougthedug on September 16, 2010 - 4:46 pm
Malc,
“…as a stepping stone to independence, I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Scottish Parliament taking on more powers gradually – Calman, devo-plus, devo-max (fiscal autonomy) then independence.”
I quite agree, but the problem with this scenario is that it will never happen because these will be Westminster granted powers not powers that the Scottish Parliament will assume on its own. Even when the SNP was riding high in the polls the best the Labour, Conservative and Lib-Dem coalition in Calman could come up with was to give the Scottish Parliament powers over speed limits and air rifles and to increase the current 3p in the pound variable income tax power to a 10p in the pound variable income tax power while still locking the Westminster funding of Scotland to the current Barnett formula block grant.
The idea that Scotland is going to follow a gentle slope of increasing legal powers and increasing fiscal powers towards independence is totally misguided. Calman gives nothing to the Scottish Parliament in terms of real power or in terms of economic control and it is a lash-up job from start to finish.
The powers the Scottish Parliament has now are about as good as it’s going to get under devolution even with Calman. Those who believe that fiscal autonomy or even powerful partial fiscal autonomy is just round the corner and that Labour, the Tories and the Lib-Dems are just aching to hand power to Scotland should get their heads out of the clouds and realise the only road to independence is going to come via the step jump from the current powers to independence.
#6 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 4:58 pm
I think that’s perhaps fair. But what we have to remember in this debate is that, in the 1990s, we had nothing (and didn’t look like getting anything) in the way of devolution. Then, in the mid-2000s, we had the Scottish Parliament, but we didn’t look like getting anything else, until the SNP took power. So, gradually, the Unionist parties have accepted the need to change the constitution, and gradually that change is happening.
I agree that they are unlikely to move right through to independence though, barring some massive event. But equally, I don’t think the jump from what we have currently to independence is one that is likely to happen either. Historically, it is the gradualist route to constitutional change that has been the more likely.
#7 by DougtheDug on September 16, 2010 - 6:25 pm
Malc,
“Historically, it is the gradualist route to constitutional change that has been the more likely.”
The problem with a gradualist route is that it won’t happen. It’s the untrustworthy dog syndrome.
If Scotland was Scotshire with a similar sense of identity to an enhanced Yorkshire then it wouldn’t be a problem. Westminster could give it lots of powers secure in the knowledge that Scotshire residents were proud Englishmen whose loyalty was unquestioned and the question of breaking up Britain/England would never arise.
With a trustworthy dog you can have a low fence round the house, in fact you don’t need a fence at all he’ll stay right by the house. With an untrustworthy dog you’ve got to keep that fence high in case he jumps it and makes off.
Every time Westminster gives Scotland more powers that fence gets lower so it’s not going to happen. In the eyes of the British state Scotland is not a trustworthy dog. It’s a paradox. The fact that Scotland has a sense of nationhood is driving the demand for more powers but that fact is also the reason that Westminster can’t grant them.
#8 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 6:35 pm
I guess that’s quite a good analogy. Except for the fact that it (devolution) DID happen and more (albeit, minor) powers are coming too. It’s probably me wasting my breath telling a nationalist to “be patient” (especially since most of the Nats I know have been campaigning for independence for longer than I’ve been alive) but I do disagree with you on this point. For me, a fundamental shift from what we have at the moment one day to independence the next just isn’t feasible, especially if you are looking for the public to support it in a referendum. Generally, people like what they have, they want the Parliament to have more power, but they don’t want independence. But if you gradually inrease the powers, you gradually increase the public’s demand for more… until you reach a critical mass in support. For me, that’s how the gradualist route will work. But I agree, neither are particularly likely in the short to mid-term.
#9 by Indy on September 16, 2010 - 2:41 pm
In practical terms independence for Scotland is the easiest thing to define. It means all the powers which are currently reserved to Westminster are transferred to the Scottish Parliament. That means everything in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act – including the constitution, foreign affairs, civil service, defence, fiscal economic & monetary policy, drugs, data protection, elections, firearms, immigration, vivisection, national security, offical secrets, betting, emergency powers, extradition, business associations, insolvency, competition, import/export control, consumer protection, intellectual property, telecomms and post, inddustrial development, trade, electricity, oil & gas, coal, nuclear energy, road, railm marine and air transport, social security, child support, pensions, regulation of professions, employment & industrial relations, health & safety, job search & support, abortion, embryology & genetics, poisons, broadcasting, equal opportunities, ordinance survey and – my personal favourite – space and time.
Yes, once we control space and time then we shall be free., Ta-dah.
Once the Scottish people – through their elected representatives – have decision making powers over all of these areas we will be independent.
#10 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 3:40 pm
Indy,
That’s clear and concise. And I have no problem really understanding what independence means. But think more closely about some of the aspects of Schedule 5. Defence (will we be in or out of NATO/ a European Defence Force?), Fiscal Economic and Monetary Policy (stick with the pound, rate set in London, or go to the Euro, rate set in Brussels?), Immigration (“Schengen”-type agreement with England?) and the like.
Of course we’ll have the ability to make these decisions for ourselves, but when we take a decision (to go to the Euro, for example) we then give up that form of independence that we briefly held.
I’m not saying that’s right or not, nor arguing that we should or should not ditch the pound or join the Euro. I’m simply saying that this is part of the reason why Scottish independence is quite difficult to define.
#11 by Indy on September 16, 2010 - 4:04 pm
Malc no-one can answer those questions. Having the ability to take those decisions is what independence is all about but, since we don’t have a crystal ball, we can’t say what the Scottish people will decide to do. We can say what SNP policy is on this, that or the next thing but we can’t say what will happen because no-one knows. This is the “problem” with independence – but it’s also what is so great about the idea. That is precisely why the huge majority of countries choose to be independent.
Scottish independence is really no more difficult to define than independence for any country in an increasingly inter-dependent world. Has Ireland lost some of its independence because it joined the euro? Is Norway more independent because it is not a member of the EU? I don’t know the answer to those questions but these are issues that affect every country in Europe, not just Scotland.
The difference is that most of them have the power to decide what position they want to take through the democratic process and Scotland doesn’t.
Regarding your point about the currency -lots of countries that became independent from the UK held onto the pound in some form or other in the immediate post-independence period. Ireland did not finally break the link with sterling until the 1970s. It would be a bit daft to try and launch an independent currency until we have decided whether or not we want to be in the euro so it’s just a holding position.
#12 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 4:12 pm
Indy, I agree almost entirely with what you’re saying. I just think the questions need to be asked. And I agree that the fact we can decide for ourselves is what’s great – but the uncertainty is problematic, of course.
The point about the currency is well taken – of course it would be daft to launch a currency for x amount of time before deciding to use the pound or Euro. All I’m asking is that, if we decide to keep the pound in the long run, wouldn’t that render us less independent, given that we wouldn’t have control over interest rates etc? And if we decided that we were to go with the Euro, we have the same issue.
I would argue that yes, Ireland indeed did lose some of its independence by joining the Euro, independence that Norway maintains. However, to an extent Ireland almost GAINED some financial independence through EU structural funds which it would not have been able to do without membership – and equally, Norway may be independent of the EU, but its actions in some areas (fishing) are almost constrained by their inability to influence decision-making at EU level. So its a swings and roundabouts situation I think – BUT again, it depends on how you define independence!
#13 by Anon on September 16, 2010 - 4:31 pm
I take it my comments are now banned?
#14 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 4:43 pm
Anon – the comments aren’t banned, but it just seemed pointless to allow them through the filter, given they added nothing constructive to the debate.
As I said before, you don’t have to read it, and if all the writing moves you to do is post ‘zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz’ then why bother commenting? But equally, if you have something constructive to debate with us, by all means comment and we’ll engage with you.
#15 by Indy on September 16, 2010 - 4:39 pm
I would argue that there iwould be much less uncertainty about our future as an independent country than there is about our future as part of the UK.
We may not be able to predict exactly what would happen to us as an independent state – but we can say that whatever decisions were taken would be broadly in line with mainstream Scottish values.
So things like the Iraq war, for example, wouldn’t happen. Some people would say that is a bit of a sweeping statement and so it is – but does anyone really think that an independent Scotland would have lined up with George Bush on that one?
What independence means is that we would never again find ourselves in a position of being involved in something which was fundamentally alien to the values of most voters. That was the case whether we are talking about foreign policy decisions like Iraq and or domestic matters such as the Coalition Government’s approach to cutting the deficit.
One day this will really sink in with Scottish Labour and transform their approach. I just hope we do not have to go through a full re-run of the Thatcher era before that happens.
#16 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 4:52 pm
I guess my point now is what it was previously. Iraq is easy to point to as something we wouldn’t have done had we been independent, and that’s fine (I’m sure some would challenge you on that, but I’ll go along with you for the moment). And again, I think you are right – independence means taking decisions for ourselves. And I’m not trying to predict what might happen with independence, all I’m saying is that, even with that independence, we wouldn’t be able to enjoy a 100% ability to make our own decisions. For example, maybe not on the Iraq invasion, but we may well have felt compelled to help an international force in Afghanistan. Compelled is perhaps too strong, but I think you know what I mean – ultimately the decision is our own, but there are a range of international pressures and factors which may weigh in on it. And I don’t really want to come back to the currency thing, but it IS an issue. How can a country claim independence when it doesn’t have control of its own economy? That, for me, makes independence a contestable concept.
#17 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 4:44 pm
‘Membership’ of a currency doesn’t equate with handing your economy over to the central bank for that currency. Indeed it is precisely that point which leaves the eurozone tearing itself apart with a multitude of economic approaches impacting and being impacted a single policy for the currency.
Holding sterling, then moving to euro post independence – may be a policy that the SNP hold, but it is contingent on independence first. The actual fate of our currency when independent will be decided by the government (and/or the people) of an independent Scotland. Choice of currency may certainly be a distinct feature state, but it doesn’t define that state’s independence, it’s simply a choice made under independence.
Again, conflating the decisions which can be taken as an independent nation with independence itself is the sole cause of this apparent uncertainty over what independence is.
Most of what you say, i don’t greatly disagree with, just the idea that it is a definition of independence.
What the economic, military, diplomatic, etc… disposition of Scotland might be after independence is not independence itself – so yes the description of what an independent Scotland after it makes a bunch of decisions will look like is variously definable, but is not what independence is. The autonomy of statehood is all that is required to define independence, even if I accept your notion that shared currency equals handing over the economy, it is still a decision that an independent state could reverse.
That’s point I seek to make – that the promotion of independence is being stymied because of an insistence in setting out exactly what decisions an independent Scotland might reach before we talk about achieving the right to make those decisions.
#18 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 5:11 pm
‘Membership’ of a currency doesn’t equate with handing your economy over to the central bank for that currency’
No, that is true. But we don’t have control of our currency/ economy to begin with, so how does either continuing to use the pound or accepting the Euro make us any more ‘independent’ on that criteria?
I guess I accept what you are saying, but I think we diverge slightly on what I’m arguing. You say that ‘independence is the autonomy of statehood’. That’s fine. But what does that actually mean? Because I would argue that the autonomy of statehood is tied closely (or may even be inextricably linked) to the autonomy of a nation’s currency.
#19 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 10:49 pm
Yes, it’s tied closely to it – because the choice lies only within the gift of an independent state.
We can’t not be independent and have the choice.
Just because we tie ourselves to a certain currency we are not obliged to stick with it, as an independent state we could change it.
The example you used earlier about the SNP currency position is an example of this – we start with sterling then move to the euro, in either of those cases are we not an independent state? I don’t believe so – if you really do, please let me know if there is a state in the world that is independent, because all make decisions on external matters which constrain their own actions.
I understand that your saying we have different interpretations of what independence is, as i understand that treaties, associations and realpolitik influence and constrain the actions of independent states. However, I think that independence is pretty clear though as a constitutional proposition, and if Scotland as a fully autonomous state which makes decisions to join currencies and treaties isn’t independent then there isn’t an independent state in the world, and discussion becomes as meaningless as we’ve rendered the word independence.
#20 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 10:56 am
Again, another fair comment. But I think that is the point really – has the term independence become meaningless because people don’t understand what is meant by it?
Of course, at its base level, all we mean is having the constitutional opportunity to decide for ourselves what we want to do. But this is where the SNP’s “independence in Europe” and “interdependent independence” confuses the issue, in the main because people start to think “well, we’re tied to a union at the moment who decide things like economics and defence, if we were ‘independent in Europe’ that’d just be the same thing, just with Europe deciding the things instead of London, so what is the point?”. And I have to say, that’s part of where the mis-understanding of – and a scepticism of the need for – independence comes from.
#21 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 5:01 pm
Dougthedug –
“What the agonising usually means is that they don’t want it and are looking for obstacles.”
That’s certainly my feeling too. It seems (though I’m clearly biased) to occur most in those who don’t want independence, or those who ‘might’ want it but would rather just have more power within the UK. That’s the reason I posted my initial comment, IMO it’s becoming ever more rare to just get to talking about whether Scotland should be making its own decisions without simply getting bogged down in what decision we might make. Obviously the decisions of state, whatever they are, will have consequences, I’d like more discussion about getting in a position to make them all.
#22 by Indy on September 16, 2010 - 5:44 pm
Sure independence is a contestable concept – there’s no such thing as total independence probably. But as I said that is the case for every single country in the world. Why should Scotland be seen as a special case? It’s not as if the SNP is saying that we want Scotland to have some special kind of independence that no-one else has. Far from it – what we want is what most countries take for granted.
#23 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 5:57 pm
Again, that’s fair comment. But I think part of the reason that we’re having this discussion is that those in favour of independence (and I include myself in this) have not properly articulated what that actually means. I agree with you – total independence isn’t now a reality in our modern, inter-dependent world.
But for me, independence in the twenty-first century is distinct from independence in the twentieth century, and that’s why I think Scotland’s conception of independence is distinctive. Because I think there’s what I would describe as an original conception of independence (post-Westphalia) when states emerged. Then you have the what I’d call the secession-model of independence, and you’d probably look at the former USSR and Yugoslavia as examples. But even that second model is pre-2000 (and pre-Euro, though not that they’d be involved), and almost distinct from an inter-connected, globalised world. This is probably why it is treated differently – because there are so many extraneous influences, membership of EU, NATO, UN, the euro, etc etc – and there isn’t really a precedent.
#24 by DougtheDug on September 16, 2010 - 6:11 pm
somepapfaedundee:
“…it’s becoming ever more rare to just get to talking about whether Scotland should be making its own decisions without simply getting bogged down in what decision we might make. ”
It’s because agonising about the “what if’s” of any decision a future independent Government of Scotland might make is a tactic to throw obstacles in the road to independence in the same way as agonising about what independence means. It’s done in the hope that worrying endlessly about possible future decisions will scare people off actually having the power to make them.
#25 by DougtheDug on September 16, 2010 - 6:58 pm
#8 by Malc on September 16, 2010 – 6:35 pm
(Because that thread ran out of reply buttons)
Malc,
It’s only an analogy but you can make the fence lower as long as it is still not jumpable.
With any transfer of powers to the Scottish Parliament the only question in Westminster will be, “Does this endanger the Union?”
Since, as you point out, a gradual in increase in powers makes moving to independence easier then the answer to this will always be “yes” and the powers won’t be transferred.
#26 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 7:07 pm
But, to use your analogy, what if we lower the fence completely – as in, get rid of it – but we remain loyal to the house, would that be such a bad thing? To put in in real terms, what if they gradually increased powers through stages, over several years, to the point where we had all the levers that we really want – fiscal autonomy, control of our armed forces, oil funds etc etc – but still remained part of the union. I mean – what if we were independent in all but name – wouldn’t that be enough? I suspect I know the answer – and a hail of “traitor” comments may rain down on my head – but that question really gets to the heart of the matter. Is it the powers of independence we want, or is it the kudos of being independent that is important?
I realise that this doesn’t directly answer your point – that Westminster won’t give up powers which they think will endanger the Union – but, on a theoretical level, if we had those powers but remained part of the Union, wouldn’t that take care of their concerns – and subsequently, allow them to devolve more powers? Like I say, hardly an ideal situation, but one which I think currently influences the SNP’s independence strategy…
#27 by DougtheDug on September 16, 2010 - 9:07 pm
Malc,
If Scotland is a trustworthy dog then it’s going to get no more powers, not because there is any risk to the Union from giving them but because without a nationalist threat there is no reason for Westminster to give them. Devolution was a reaction to the nationalist threat in Scotland and if that threat disappears then Scotland will be ignored.
New powers for Scotland would disrupt the natural centralist outlook of Westminster, eat up legislative time in Parliament and add bureaucratic complication to the Civil Service. There is also no electoral gain for either big party in Scotland if they were to introduce new powers to Holyrood. Labour sweep the board in the Westminster elections whatever they do and the Conservatives just can’t hack it in Scotland. In any case, if Scots are loyal Britons what are they going to do when Westminster says no?
If Scotland is an untrustworthy dog then it won’t get anymore powers because that is going to lower the fence and make the road to independence easier.
We’re actually at the Catch-22 tipping point of devolution in Scotland. If the nationalist threat recedes then there is no desire in Westminster to give Scotland more powers even though it is safe to do it. If the nationalist threat increases then it is too dangerous to give Scotland more powers. Calman is going to be the last gasp of power being devolved to Scotland within the Union. I’m actually surprised that the Tories are implementing it. It’s a Labour scheme which has Gordon “Tax Credits” Brown’s inky interfering fingers all over it which makes it a bureaucratic nightmare for HMRC and will bring no benefit to the Tories either in Scotland or England. I wouldn’t be surprised if it never makes it onto the statute book. Perhaps it’s a death-rattle more than a gasp.
Going back to you’re original point, speculating about a Scotland which has extensive powers and a lot of fiscal autonomy but is still within the union is like speculating about time-travel. It’s interesting but since it’s not going to happen then there’s not much point wasting time over it.
The choice is going to come down to independence or the current set-up.
#28 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 9:22 pm
The catch-22 thing is interesting, and I think, fairly accurate. But while I agree with your premise, I don’t necessarily agree with your conclusion. I just think that these things take time.
The SNP has existed for, what, 78 years? The first time devolution was on the agenda was when they started to gain influence and blackmail potential in the 1970s – but the argument and the referendum were unsuccessful (for various reasons). But when they gained strength again – AND, crucially, pro-devolution elements in the Labour party came to the fore – the argument for devolution was won in the 1990s. That took 60 years of the SNP’s existence, with peaks and troughs of support. For me, each move towards further power is another step on that journey. I can’t see how you go from what we have now to independence overnight (obviously I don’t mean tomorrow – but you know what I mean).
As for the extensive powers/fiscal autonomy short of independence which you don’t see happening and not worth discussing… I’d argue that’s almost exactly the case that the SNP are articulating at the moment. Its a case of “we know we can’t get independence, so let’s get as much as we possibly can”. Okay, that might not consist of FULL fiscal autonomy, but I think if the SNP gain in strength again (not in 2011, maybe 2015) Westminster may grant further tax powers (which I think Osbourne is more keen on than Labour were) and I see independence as much more likely from a situation where we already have some fiscal powers than a situation when we basically have none.
#29 by DougtheDug on September 16, 2010 - 10:14 pm
Malc,
Our current devolved parliament was designed to stop a move towards independence not to facilitate it. It was a reaction by the opposition to the SNP not an SNP campaign objective.
As I said we’ve reached a tipping point in devolution which is a unionist creation not a nationalist one. If the Holyrood devolved parliament hasn’t stopped the desire for independence at the next election then the tactic of throwing a sop nationalism hasn’t worked and it will not gain additional powers. If it has stopped independence then it’s worked and it will not gain additional powers.
The next SNP campaign will be fought on independence not on fiscal autonomy because if the SNP can get a majority in Holyrood then they can deliver on independence via a referendum but it doesn’t matter how many MSP’s they get in Holyrood they can never deliver on Fiscal Autonomy. That is in the gift of Westminster and it’s never going to be granted.
#30 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 10:49 am
Doug – I’d argue the opposite, that it doesn’t matter how many MSPs the SNP get in, they can’t deliver independence. Because that, too, is a gift of Westminster. Even a referendum bill may not be within the competence of the Scottish Parliament (as Lallands Peat Worrier and Scott at Love and Garbage debated last week). So I guess we’re arguing a little at cross-purposes, but that’s probably because we believe distinctly different things.
By the way, what “desire for independence” HASN’T been stopped? Do you equate voting for the SNP as desire for independence (at 31% of the 2007 vote) or polls for independence (the HIGHEST of which since the SNP were in power has put independence at 41%)? Neither of which looks like a sizeable mandate. I’d argue that devolution seems like it has worked to an extent in arresting support for independence, and following that, that the “gifts of Westminster” won’t be coming overly quickly until more pressure is exerted.
#31 by cynicalHighlander on September 16, 2010 - 7:12 pm
Independence is allowing the people to make choices for the benefit of the same does anyone consider that India or others agonised of how they would defend themselves, the economy no. It was about having the freedom to make those choices once they had removed the shackles.
#32 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 8:03 pm
I don’t dispute that at all. But as I said in response to Indy, I think there are three stages in which independence has taken place – and India would come under the first of those, post-Westphalia and post-colonialism. The second model – the secession model – is characterised by the break up of the USSR and Yugoslavia. So for me comparing Scotland’s fight for independence with countries declaring independence from each of these models isn’t that helpful. Those decisions for independence were made in distinctly different circumstances under different conditions. Whether those states ‘agonised’ over particular issues is, to me, irrelevant (though I suspect they did – what’s the point of declaring independence only to be invaded when you can’t defend yourself?) because they exist in a distinctly different timeframe.
But again, I’ll ask a question. Is it the powers that we’d have as an independent state that are attractive, or simply the kudos of being independent? Is independence an instrinsic good in and of itself, or is it consequential – that then we can take decisions that affect real things? I only ask because sometimes the responses I get from some pro-independence folk suggest that independence is the be-all-and-end-all, that somehow all our troubles will be solved with independence.
#33 by cynicalHighlander on September 16, 2010 - 8:59 pm
But surely every quest for Independence has been done in different cicrumstances and under different conditions or are you looking for a blueprint when this box is ticked move to the next one. Some have been done using skin colour, war, distrust of the ‘oversears’ and others and I have been over 4 decades of voting for it. Have any of those that have achieved it come back knocking on the door pleading to be ruled by Westminster?
I trust you are aware of the Mcrone report. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html
Trust is one of the most treasured feelings as once lost it has gone forever.
#34 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 9:11 pm
Of course every “quest for independence” has distinct characteristics that are peculiar to it. But I think there are basically two time-frames – the first formation of states and the end of colonialism as the first, and the start of secession-types and the end of socialist empires as the second. Scotland falls into the second as a secessionist claim, but not as an end of socialism empire type, which is why I think defining Scottish independence has been more difficult.
Its not like I’m on the opposite side of this debate to you – I’m pro-independence too. I support Scottish independence. And of course I recognise that once independent states do not want to come back under ‘colonial’ rule. My point isn’t that we shouldn’t be independent (I think we should), its that we really need to understand what independence actually means. And I don’t think that anyone has sufficiently explained the concept – though the current Scottish Government has spent 3 years trying!
#35 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 11:15 pm
Malc, maybe (if for no other reason than to help this poor soul understand 🙂 you could sketch out what you think an independent Scotland that isn’t what people would already understand by looking around at other states, would be like.
It’s clear you believe there would be differences to the other states around us, what are they?
Also, in one of your earlier comments you imagined us being independent in all but name (forces, oil, economy, etc.. all ours) yet still in the Union – how could it possibly be the same Union?
#36 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:21 am
I never said it could be the same Union. All I meant was that we could gradually accrue more powers and more powers, but if people were not keen on the idea of Scottish independence (and polls currently suggest that) then we would be de facto independent – that is, have all the powers of statehood, but not actually be independent. I don’t see it happening – I really used it as a tool to demonstrate that we could have the practical elements of independence but people probably still wouldn’t be happy, because its the kudos of being independent that people are interested in.
On your other point, its not that I believe we’d be inherently different to anything seen before. I just think the process would be different. And I think the international element is something that needs more attention – in the sense of can we simply take on the UK’s EU representation or do we have to re-apply? Being part of a 300-year old Union and then not being part of it are distinctly different constitutional positions – and ARE unlike anything we’ve seen in Europe before. Those conditions DO mean there would be plenty of things to iron out – also because we share an island with what would be our former union. So there’s practical issues there too. Essentially, I do think Norway/ Sweden or even Denmark are decent models to look at, because they still share a ‘loose’ Scandinavian connection while being part of larger bodies (Sweden EU/ euro, Denmark EU but not euro, Norway EEA). I think we’d retain some agreements with the rest of the UK (perhaps stuff like the DVLA and unpoliced border-crossings) or something – but that isn’t something we’ve really seen before from a newly independent state I don’t think. They tend to want to cut ties immediately.
#37 by Ken on September 16, 2010 - 9:27 pm
This seems to me to be a confusion between of independence as constitutional property, and the wider concept of being independent. If a state has the right to take whatever actions it likes on its own affairs, subject to international law, then it is constitutionally independent. The state then decides what treaties it wants to be part of, and once it joins them, it has to obey the rules, or pay to get itself out. Has any of that changed over the three phases you refer to? (Maybe it has – maybe the international law clause is what you are getting at …)
Agreeing to use someone else’s currency, or joining a currency union, would make a state more interdependent in practice, and similarly for joining Nato. But it doesn’t affects its constitutional position.
I support independence because I believe that tat constitutional position should, on balance, allow us to take actions that will serve us (and hopefully the rest of the world) better. And once Scotland is independent, I believe it would make progress by pooling resources and collaborating with other states.
But it is not guaranteed, and what I am calling constitutional independence is not an end in itself. We could, of course, end up constitutionally independent, but economically completely dependent on someone else. I believe we should take that risk.
#38 by Malc on September 16, 2010 - 9:38 pm
I think I need a “like” button for this comment. It probably states my case much better than I could.
Of course, the changes in international circumstances are really the defining aspect of my “three phases of independences” typology. But interdependence and globalisation are probably the main reasons why independence in the contemporary world is much more difficult to explain. Your distinction between “constitutional independence” and “economic dependence” is probably what I needed to do much better. So yes, I agree pretty much entirely with that. BUT, here’s the rub. If you are going to be dependent on someone else for economics (much like we currently are) why do we need to be “constitutionally independent” in the first place? This feeds into my other point – is it the kudos of being independent that we really covet?
And that is your last point – constitutional independence not being an end in itself – I couldn’t agree more. That’s another point which I think needs articulated more fully. Independence for independence’ sake or as a means to an end – improving Scotland? And how? But that really is a distinctly different argument.
#39 by Ken on September 16, 2010 - 10:14 pm
And you can consider my comment as a clicking of the “like” button for the blog.
The kudos would be nice. But much more important is the ability to represent ourselves and the extra power it would bring to influence the external economy that we are interdependent with.
#40 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 10:50 am
Again, I think that’s fair. Kudos v practicalities is probably a decent way of understanding this debate. I do get the feeling that some in the party just like the idea for the idea’s sake though.
#41 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 11:08 pm
Malc…
“If you are going to be dependent on someone else for economics (much like we currently are) why do we need to be “constitutionally independent†in the first place?”
Do you mean we are dependent on the UK for economic policy at present?
If so, your example is predicated on the idea that I disputed earlier – that joining a currency puts your economy in the hands of those who run that currency – it’s not the case.
Regardless, comparing Scotland in the UK with zero economic control, to an independent Scotland with full control over its economy choosing to join a currency actually demonstrates that there is a world of difference IMO.
I’m not really up on global political history, what are the significant constitutional differences in the resultant states from the three phases you mention?
#42 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:11 am
Where to begin?! The three phases. Basically, if we start with the post-Westphalian phase, we’re looking at the big, Old-European states (Germany, Italy, France etc etc). Its not so much “declaration of independence” as statehood and the coming of large-ish world-powers. In the second phase we’re looking at secessionist states from larger empires/ states (Estonia, Czech Republic, Croatia) some of which became part of the expanded EU and euro zone. But prior to their independence, the larger state was not part of the EU or other international institutions (UN excepted). So that again, makes the Scottish case different. The third phase (now) would be secessionist claims from autonomist nations and regions within fully fledged democratic systems who are part of the EU (Scotland, Basque Country, Catalonia, Flanders). I never said the Scottish case was unique – these places find defining what their autonomist claims are difficult as well – but when you compare Scotland to them you can see some similar conditions and some distinctly “Scottish” issues as well.
Again, I think we are arguing at distinctly different points, because I would argue that IF we gave up control of our currency (if, indeed, we had control of it in the first place, which is unlikely if we keep the pound) then we give up that independence (see response to Stuart above). My terminology may be bad – I perhaps should have used ‘sovereignty’ not ‘independence’ on that point, but the for me it means the same. The fact that Germany and France are independent and yet joined the EU and the euro led to their giving up sovereignty in this area, something the UK was unwilling to do. For me, they were ENTIRELY (or as entirely as you can be in an interdependent world) independent until they made that decision, then they were less so. That’s what I mean.
#43 by Ken on September 16, 2010 - 9:42 pm
You said at 7:07: “what if … we had all the levers that we really want … but still remained part of the union”?
I don’t know how to answer that. I can’t think what levers I would not want us to have ultimate control over. By independence I mean having the right to take control of any of the levers (to the best of our ability, given the interactions with the international economy, and so on). That is what I think we are lacking. Any individual powers we have are by grace and favour of Westminster, where we are outnumbered. But if we were independent, I would be happy to share the powers as needed, as long as we are not signing away our right to take them back for ever.
#44 by Stuart Winton on September 16, 2010 - 11:08 pm
Clearly independence is a question of degree rather than an absoute concept, which is perhaps a slightly more accurate way of characterising it than Iain Macwhirter’s “process, not an event”, which seems to refer to a chronology or dynamic rather than a static concept.
Thus EU members are clearly less independent than non-EU members, while EU members who are also eurozone members are less independent than the likes of the UK, but most people would probably call both the likes of Germany and the UK independent states – the issue is self-evidently complex and multi-faceted.
But clearly the complexity of the concept of independence is where the political difficulties arise; and the current debate is usually conducted in terms of Scottish sovereignty vis-a-vis the UK, while ignoring the fact that an ‘independent’ Scotland would in fact cede much of its sovereignty to the EU – assuming it was admitted to membership – again underlining the complexity of the issue.
Indeed, it was the SNP’s paradoxical ‘independence in Europe’ stance that led to deputy leader Jim Fairlie resigning 20 years ago, and in a letter to the Scotsman last week he said:
“To paraphrase the late Oliver Brown and with apologies for the grammar, “At the mention of the word ‘independence’, a shiver ran through the ranks of the SNP, frantically searching for a spine to run up.”
My conflicts with the SNP were originally over its commitment to the EU and its willingness to see control, which by rights should be vested in the Scottish people, increasingly passed to the EU.
“The Scottish electorate have long since seen through the nonsense of “independence in Europe” and unfortunately the SNP was never required to justify a policy which was an insult to our intelligence.
“Having been allowed to slither from under that particular burden, the SNP has gone on to spin “fiscal autonomy” as the equivalent of what used to be know as independence and, for the most part during the past 20 years, the word “independence” has almost disappeared from the party’s general literature and completely disappeared from the literature in individual constituencies.”
This neatly demonstrates the complexity of Scottish independence – both in the UK and the less often addressed EU context – and the resultant political difficulties. By the same token, how independence is defined by the various actors will depend both on ideological considerations and what’s practically achievable, and the differing positions of Salmond and Fairlie merely represent the more prominent voices in a wider and more complex debate.
And, of course, Salmond and Fairlie and the complexity of the independence concept in turn demonstate the difficulty in defining nationalism, so Macwhirter’s post-nationalism label is a bit reductionist.
But apart from the idealistic conflicts over what independence should mean, perhaps the lesson to be drawn from ten years of devolution and four years of SNP government is that what’s practically achievable has changed as well, and clearly Alex Salmond has a different perspective on this from the Jim Fairlies of this world, but this pragmatic retreat invites the post-nationalist characterisation.
Incidentally, Malc, did you realise the population of Malta is similar to Edinburgh ;0)
#45 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:02 am
“Thus EU members are clearly less independent than non-EU members, while EU members who are also eurozone members are less independent than the likes of the UK.”
As much as I agree with you Stuart, this is where I’ve gotten into difficulty in this debate. Perhaps if I’d used the term “less sovereign” instead of “less independent” I’d have made my point clearer. But then, for me, independence basically IS sovereignty, and if you give up some sovereignty then you give up some independence. And that is why the picture of what Scottish independence means is somewhat muddy. But then that confuses things, because independent actually means being able to make decisions alone, so how can there be degrees of it?! Of course, your examples (Salmond, Fairlie, UK actors) help make that point better.
But for me, the road we are can be understood as a continuum from centralism to independence, and we’re around halfway along it (devolution of plenty powers, but none of the levers of state). I do think it is a gradual process, and it will continue to evolve (see Wales, though they started further behind us!).
Malta the same size as Edinburgh? Stirling is bigger than Liechtenstein… and we know how that has ended up!
#46 by somepapfaedundee on September 16, 2010 - 11:22 pm
Sorry Malc, meant to also respond to this directly –
” But we don’t have control of our currency/ economy to begin with, so how does either continuing to use the pound or accepting the Euro make us any more ‘independent’ on that criteria?”
Again, sharing(sort of) a currency and having no economic control (Scotland in the Union) doesn’t equal sharing a currency and retaining all other control over your economy (Scotland in the EU).
It’s not my position (I’m not firm on it yet), but clearly the latter is ‘more independent’.
#47 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:26 am
Okay, perhaps not. But I’d suggest they do have an impact upon one another. But I see I do have you started to use the term “more independent”, which indicates you are starting to think there are perhaps levels to independence? Which was kind of the point to begin with.
#48 by somepapfaedundee on September 17, 2010 - 12:11 pm
Yes, currency and economy are strongly linked.
‘More independent’ . Well, to be fair I was responding to your statement where you used the phrase ‘more independent’ when denying that Scotland would have any more economic freedom as an ‘independent state within the EU than it does as an integral part of the UK.
If I have money, and give it to an investor – it’s still my money, I’ve given him the decision making over how to invest it for me and can’t access it as freely as before etc., but it’s still my money and I made the decision to delegate those decisions out. Crucially when I want out of the relationship i can get out, because it’s still my money. I’m still an independent actor in that financial world while at the same time delegating my investment decision making under some agreement.
If Scotland is independent, and remains part of or joins the EU, it has decided to surrender some of its autonomy or independence on a working basis, but until it cedes its right fundamental autonomy as a state it can always pull out and gather back whatever autonomy it delegated out – it is still a fully autonomous agent in the world.
If Scotland is not independent, but remains part of the current Union, it has no autonomy in the world, and only limited autonomy within the UK (all of which can be taken back by the UK).
I don’t see how these are the same.
I’ll have to add a signature to my posts saying –
I understand and accept that in the real world things are connected to one another and influence one another, and nothing is completely independent in nature. However, i believe that a simple common understanding of state independence, lies in the knowledge that decision making regarding all its own resources and associations is the right of that state (including delegation of those decisions, as well the right to end such delegation).
But that’s enough for me for now, thanks for the conversation all.
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#49 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 9:40 am
For me it is quite simple. Even if ‘independence’ is achieved and Scotland keeps the pound, shares an army and stays in the EU, it will have ‘independently’ decided to do these things through democratic decisions. That makes it independent even if, on the face of it, it’s just the same as before.
Right now if a majority in Scotland decided they wanted its own currency or into the Euro, wanted its own army and/or wanted out of the EU, there would be no means to do so if an English/Welsh/NI majority believed otherwise.
In terms of Malc’s main message, I don’t know if I fully have my head around it but if the SNP pushing independence as a straw-man while behind the scenes it is amassing the powers it wants anyway, in some sort of ‘devolution max’ agreement, then I think labelling them a ‘post-Nationalist’ party would be reasonable. I can’t imagine the significant, more fundamental, section of the SNP would be happy about it though.
#50 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:27 am
Agreed!
Just to be clear – for you, independence is simply the ability to make the decision. Where it leads us (ie – into another Union) is irrelevant?
#51 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 11:41 am
Yes, for me Malc independence is about making the decision. It is bizarre to say that Ireland isn’t an independent state when it’s in a European Union, given that it chooses to be there.
Scotland has chosen to be in the United Kingdom (or at least currently chooses to not leave it) so that, for me, is where any comparison with other bona fide countries breaks down.
#52 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:52 am
Hang on though – that’s not consistent. Or maybe it is.
What your saying is, if we gained independence from the UK then decided to join the EU, we’d be independent for the 5 minutes it took us to make the decision before becoming NOT independent not ‘less independent’?
See, your view is quite different from a lot of the previous commentators. That is quite interesting though.
#53 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 11:59 am
No, I am saying we’d be just as independent whether inside or outside the EU, as long as it was Scotland’s choice alone whether we were in or out.
I don’t believe Scotland would be ‘less independent in the EU’. It would have chosen to be there having decided that benefits can be derived from such a deal.
#54 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 12:06 pm
Just to be totally clear, I’d say Ireland is just as independent as Norway.
#55 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 12:08 pm
Ah. Sorry, I misread your comment. I thought you said “bizarrely, Ireland…” not “it is bizarre”. So that explains my misinterpretation.
But even that position is fairly interesting. I take it that means that you don’t see independence and sovereignty as synonyms, given you don’t think a country’s independence would be lessened by joining the EU but it is commonly accepted that sovereignty IS lessened by giving up some decision-making?
What I find interesting though, is the idea that independence solely means being able to make the choice (and, resulting from that, that any decision to give someone else the power over some of our choices wouldn’t mean we were less independent). That is worthy of further discussion.
#56 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 12:18 pm
Perhaps I misunderstand what ‘sovereignty’ is but I don’t see it being diminished just by joining the EU.
If a country enters a simple bilateral trade deal then it is no less independent than before. Add on an environment programme between these two countries and maybe another one and, again, the countries are no less sovereign and no less independent. The EU is just an amalgamation of many trade deals, environment deals, transport arrangements etc etc so, as an extension of the philosophy above, a country’s sovereignty and independence remains intact irrespective of how complicated or tangled agreements between countries become.
As long as each member has the ‘big red button’ option of leaving the Union whenever they wish, I don’t see any impact on their independence. Or their sovereignty.
I’d be interested to hear the views of a pro-independence and anti-EU campaigner. I just don’t know how many there are…
#57 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 1:08 pm
I don’t know anyone who would argue that a country’s sovereignty is ENHANCED by joining the EU. Though I think your view of the EU as ‘an amalgamation of many trade deals etc” is rather simplistic. And it underestimates the power of the EU to ensure compliance with EU legislation within a member state’s territory.
On sovereignty, here’s a standard definition: “the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a territory” (okay, its from Wikipedia, but it is accurate on this occasion!). Now for me, its clear that if you enter into an arrangement or union like the EU, you give up SOME of that authority over your territory, given you are allowing someone else (in this case, 26 other states) have some say in how your state is run. That, for me, is a a clear instance of your sovereignty being diminished by membership of the EU. I do take your point that it can be enhanced by membership too (in terms of environmental policy, for example). However, full sovereignty (or independence) can only be restored by use of your “big red button” option.
Incidentally, I wouldn’t call myself an “anti-EU campaigner” but I am sceptical of the benefits of trading one union for another if we want to be ‘independent’.
#58 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 1:35 pm
“I don’t know anyone who would argue that a country’s sovereignty is ENHANCED by joining the EU. “ – I never said it would be but ruling that out doesn’t mean it can’t stay the same.
“On sovereignty, here’s a standard definition: “the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a territory†(okay, its from Wikipedia, but it is accurate on this occasion!). Now for me, its clear that if you enter into an arrangement or union like the EU, you give up SOME of that authority over your territory”
– I don’t think it’s clear at all. Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal etc all still have supreme, independent authority over their territory. Just because they have allowed power to be transferred to EU bodies and/or MEPs, it is still national parliament who hold the ultimate or ‘supreme’ authority over what happens within their borders.
Someone can get married but they are still an independent human being with sole authority over what they do each day. Sure, they’ll be influenced by their partner but they are no less independent than if they had been single. (i’m not sure that analogy stacks up but I’m going for it anyway!)
One can be inclusionist and consensual without compromising their independence but I suspect we could bang heads on this one for a while and never agree.
#59 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 1:46 pm
I disagree. Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal etc DON’T in my view retain “supreme, independent authority over their territory”. For example, their national parliaments don’t have “supreme authority” over anything to do with their currency – they gave up that right to the EU. But I guess in your view, because they can leave the EU (and with it, the euro) they retain “supreme authority”?
This is, I guess, a fundamentally different understanding from yours, which – as you said at the end – means we’re unlikely to ever agree. But it is that fundamental difference which I think informs both our view of independence and how we diverge in our thinking.
And on your marriage thing – that doesn’t stack up at all. Being married, believe me, my independence is fundamentally compromised! (Incidentally, if Mrs H is reading this, that is not meant as a bad thing!).
#60 by Indy on September 17, 2010 - 10:10 am
“Is it the powers of independence we want, or is it the kudos of being independent that is important?”
It is the powers.
There is no reason why there shouldn’t be some kind of continuing Union – a Council of the British Isles – perhaps, like the Nordc Council. And there would still be the Union of the Crowns unless we decided to change that.
Regarding the question of whether the SNP is pushing indepedence as a straw-man while behind the scenes amassimg the powers we want – I think it’s a lot simpler than that.
We want independence but obviously we will support all moves to increase Scotland’s autonomy along the way.
#61 by Jeff on September 17, 2010 - 10:22 am
I take your point indy but I would say that it’s not quite as simple as that as one has to make a conscious, or at least unconscious, decision as to how much effort one puts into the independence argument and how much into the more subtle ‘moves to increase Scotland’s autonomy’ along the way. Is it really 100% for the former and 0% for the latter? How about 80/20? I wouldn’t like to say but I think there’s a practical complication there that you are downplaying in favour of a more idealistic theory.
Interestingly, and a bit of a tangent, I have taken the opposite view when it comes to proportional represenation. To use your last line:
I want STV but won’t support AV to increase UK’s PR along the way. That’s a separate post I guess but my rationale may have analogies with independence (witness Jim Sillars e.g.)
#62 by Malc on September 17, 2010 - 11:32 am
In response to both Jeff (10.22am) and Indy (10.10am)…
Of course its the powers. And of course the SNP want independence. But the strategy of asking for more and getting less does have its place. Like in the 1990s saying we’ll be “free by 93” only to accept devolution in 1997. And that is progress towards the goal. I think even Calman’s recommendations, limited though they are, should be accepted as progress in the “right direction”.
On Jeff’s analogy, I kind of take the same tact when it comes to PR… because I don’t think AV will lead to STV. But I do think the gradual devolution of further powers will (eventually) result in independence. I take the point that the logic in both cases is the same… but I don’t know that the outcome would be.
#63 by Indy on September 17, 2010 - 12:09 pm
I think part of the issue here is that the independence universe expands and contracts in response to a whole lot of factors of which the SNP is only one. We are probably the biggest factor in political terms – but there are many other things that influence support for independence. Nevertheless there is a tendency (both within and outwith the SNP ) to ascribe the level of support for independence entirely to the amount of effort the SNP puts in to arguing for independence. It’s not really like that.
The SNP has to respond to public opinion, as well as try and shape it. Public opinion for the past few years has been pretty settled around the increased powers position and it was our job as the governing party to try and deliver on that. That didn’t mean we put independence on the back burner – but it was our role to understand what the Scottish people wanted and work to see if it could be achieved. Because of the polarisation that has happened around the independence referendum, we didn’t get very far with it – the Calman Commission proposals being a pig in a poke, as most agree, and most unlikely ever to happen.
So in one sense we are back to square one, in that we are going into an election again arguing for a mandate for a referendum on independence. But we’ll be going into that from a position of incumbency and in the context of a Westminster-created economic crisis that threatens the very fabric of communities all across Scotland. So we’re going to run a strong independence-focused campaign. But that doesn’t mean that we have turned our back on the idea of increased powers – it’s never been one or the other. Increased powers are a sign that we are moving further along the road to independence.
PS: AV is not a form of proportional representation so that point is moot.
#64 by Stuart Winton on September 18, 2010 - 8:44 am
I can’t really see how independence can be an absolute concept and that as long as a nation consents to ceding or pooling sovereignty – most obviously as an EU member – then it’s as independent as it was prior to membership.
If that was the case then if Scotland voted in a referendum to remain in the UK then it would be deemed indepedent because it had consented to sovereignty lying at the UK level. Indeed, since there’s never been any obvious popular mandate for an independent Scotland then to that extent Scotland is currently independent because in effect we’ve consented to the constitution of the UK??!!
Thus surely it’s a question of degree, or a continuum, as Malc put it earlier.
Indeed, it’s surely accepted that when the Treaty of Rome was signed then the members had ceded sovereignty, and with the subsequent treaties a greater degree of sovereignty had been ceded, culminating in the current EU.
And I can’t really see much practical difference between sovereignty and independence, hence the latter concept is also a question of degree.
Thus if we equate independence with nationalism then to answer the question posed at the outset, the SNP is LESS nationalist, not POST-nationalist, which oversimplifies a matter of some complexity.
Of course, there are many different strands of opinion within the SNP, but to say that it’s less nationalist now refers to the prevailing dominant view.
#65 by Gideon Mack on September 19, 2010 - 5:30 pm
The sooner Scotland gains independance from England the better which should be total in every way – financially, politically and legally. Good luck.
#66 by Indy on September 20, 2010 - 10:01 am
No Stuart Scotland is not independent. It’s true that the Scottish people have democratically decided not to be independent i.e. not to have sovereignty. The comparison with the EU is false – have have not pooled sovereignty with the UK. We have given it up entirely.
#67 by Stuart Winton on September 21, 2010 - 6:52 pm
Indy, well of course I don’t think that by any reasonable assessment Scotland is independent; my point was that by taking the argument made by others – that a nation could be wholly independent if it consented to ceding sovereignty – to its logical conclusion meant that they must take the view that Scotland is currently independent.
But I can’t see how you consider the EU comparision invalid – Scotland has a democratic say in how the UK is run, as do EU members vis-a-vis that entity, and in both cases sovereignty is pooled by democratic consent. Neither the UK vis-a-vis the EU nor Scotland vis-a-vis the UK are comparable to Tibet vis-a-vis China, for example.
Indeed, the SNP want an independent Scotland to cede sovereignty to the EU, so what’s the fundamental difference between that and ceding it to the UK??
The SNP might as well talk about “independence in the UK”, which would be consistent with “independence in Europe”.
Jim Fairlie is right – to a large extent all the SNP want to do is swap one pooling of sovereignty with another, thus hardly independence.
This is most obvious in the case of monetary policy. If the SNP want to join the Euro then that would amount to swapping supposedly inappropriate interest rates set in London with interest rates set in Frankfurt, so to that extent arguably LESS independent than having them set by the Bank of England.
By the same token, you can’t say that Scotland has given up sovereignty entirely within the UK; indeed, devolution has repatriated a significant degree of sovereignty to Scotland.
Thus Scotland is more independent that it was twenty years ago.
Unless, of course, you consider the increasing surrender of aspects of sovereignty to the EU via the UK ;0)